Reverse Discrimination?

"I personally believe that in this particular instance, if the test was implemented fairly, the white firefighters have a real shot on winning this suit. If they do, this will set back many of the victories against race discrimination we have won against intolerance, bigotry and injustice."  Juan, don't you find a sort of a paradox between the first and second sentences here?

If the test was implemented fairly, and if the test was not in any way biased towards African Americans, then how does this "set back" victories against race discrimination?  How does this go against the vision of the great Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. for a colorblind society where one is judged on their merits and not on the color of their skin?  One of the firefighters is dyslexic; he had to study twice as hard to take this exam.  One of the firefighters was Hispanic.

Last and not least, what does the "Republican Elite" have to do with their promotions?  "You can't have a promotion because I hate Rush Limbaugh," just doesn't seem like a good argument to me.

I will end with your final quote, "A country where no matter what color you are, you truly have the opportunity to be anything you want to be."  That was what the firefighters wanted but what the firefighters were denied because they weren't the right shade of minority.  That was the dream of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Christopher, don't be disingenuous.  Of course it will be a setback.  The 'told you so' crowd will make it look like that's the case in EVERY test discrimination suit... and you KNOW it.  So far, they've had no luck because the test itself can usually be shown to be racially biased.  But if this one isn't, this one will stand in for ALL of 'em.

I would have to respectfully concur with Christopher.

I also agree with Christopher on this point.  Setback or not ... the ruling in New Haven was wrong, supporting that ruling was wrong and may (might, could, might possibly, possibly probably) give us a look into how Sotamayor will be ruling from the SCOTUS bench.

I feel that if the white firefighters win, this will give precedence for other challanges, which in turn will give amo to individuals and groups with intollerant views, so they can further their hatred of minorities.

Precedence for what?  Throwing away test scores because the results didn't match the quota expectations is and should always be wrong.  If you want quotas then have quotas; don't make the "rules" and then pull them back because they didn't meet the unwritten requirements.

I never knew dyslexics were the "majority."  Nor were Hispanics.  (At least in Connecticut.)

Very good point Christopher.

The Republican Elite reference has to do with the way Sotomayor is being potrayed as a racist and her record is being ignored.

In this case, there is a complaint that she sided with the majority in dismissing this without even a proper hearing of the evidence.  That raises one thing in my mind, "with the majority."  She was not alone in dismising the case, and I haven't heard their defense.

I have questions on how the test was given, was there study material to test against and did all have equal access to it? Was the test compromised with African- Americans not having access to the compromised test? Who wrote the test and who scores the test?

I took 3 professional certification tests and they were written by a board with what subjects would be tested, the weight of each subject and what study materials were required. This was fair and straight up and I passed all 3 on the first attempt- the process was fair and on the up and up. In the case of the fire fighters I still have a few questions on why no African Americans passed, what's behind this dismal showing?

Brian, I hope you have come back and read my comment.

The thing that is overlooked is that tests are "biased" because they assume certain knowledge, experiences and ways of thinking are the same for a member of a non-centric, minority group in America.

I took an intelligence test when I was 10. One of the questions was "Who wrote Romeo and Juliet?" Being a black child with both parents holding college degrees, I knew the answer due to having been exposed to such. This was many years ago, but I bet most 10 year old black kids--or any other minority for that matter--wouldn't have the slightest idea who Shakespeare was and why his writing would apply to their lives.

Most likely, they wouldn't even know of West Side Story and whatever the latest re-incarnation was (can't recall the name but it was an urban style rendition).

Would the average firefighter be up on his Shakespeare?

This is a simplistic example but I feel it illustrates my point.

We are not talking about IQ tests but a test designed for fire fighter promotion that was already subjected to tests to make it fair and balanced.  Wild speculations about what was in the test are not productive.  I highly doubt Romeo and Juliet were in that test.

You missed my point entirely, Christopher.

Juan M.,

Help me understand the issue here. did the courts, did the city (which selected the test to be used), the people taking the tests and failed to pass claim that the tests or the way in which they were administered were prejudicial or that the tests weren't appropriate for the knowledge necessary to the roles those taking the test were competing for?

It appears the only issue is that the city did not get the right number of minorities to pass, in fact none of those who passed were of a desired ethnic or gender group that the city wanted to promote. Since the city didn't get those they wanted to promote to demonstrate sufficient knowledge for the particular jobs the city simply tossed the tests.

If there is no claim by all particpants that the tests weren't a fair representaion of the appropriate knowledge and where admistered in a prejudial manner then it seems on the face of it that the city was simply trying to do somehting the civil rights movement has been fighting for years, prevent equal opportunity.

I feel the bigger question is why did the city want to base promotion on what colud be an invalid test in the first place? Where's the testing board, proctor, subjects and study materials to test against and was the exam 100% per cent objective in nature or was it subjective? And who scored the test? Those are serious questions.

"Would the average firefighter be up on his Shakespeare?  This is a simplistic example but I feel it illustrates my point."

  Nyota,    The problem with your point is that, as Christopher correctly pointed out, the New Haven firefighter tests were about firefighting, not general American culture (for that matter, why can't the black firefighters know as much about general American culture as anyone else).

   If you have some specific information about the tests, and how/why it discriminated against the black firefighters, let's hear it.  In the meantime, I notice that 3 victims of the racial discrimination in the Ricci case were Hispanics, all of whom had high test scores, and 1 of whom is actually a plaintiff in the case.

    These Hispanic firefighters didn't seem to have trouble with the test, and I could imagine a popssible greater cultural divide between  them and the test that the blacks and the test.  The Hispanics come from a background speaking an entirely different language, and immigrating from other countries, wheras the blacks were born here and spoke English from birth.  Why should these blacks have ANY cultural problem with tests in American, that is if they don't purposely divorce themselves from that culture.  If they do that, that's no one's problem but theirs which they would have created.

My guess is that these crybaby sore losers just didn't turn the TV off, and study as hard as the others did.

It's too bad you don't/won't understand my simplistic example.

"I'm stating that the test itself was a farce,.."

    Now that you've stated it, would you care to provide one shred of evidence that "the test itself was a farce" ?  I'm stating that I guess (which I think is all you're doing) that the test was valid, and was thrown out only because the New Haven mayor (DeStefano) was intimidated by the 60% black voting population of New Haven, and a black minister buddy of DeStefano, enlisted by the crybaby black firefighters, to coerce him to toss the tests.

  As for the silly title of this article, there is no such thing as "Reverse" discrimination.

In the Ricci case, white and Hispanic firefighters were dicsriminatedagainst, and victimized.  It doesn't matter.  Anytime people are discriminated against because of their race, it's racial discrimination, period.

I think that everyone should be treated fairly and yes, whites can be discriminated against too,

I think that Sotomayer is a racist for making this remark and there should be no room in this elite position for a racist, no matter what color she is... She said it, so let her remarks come back and kick her in the butt....

Juan, I am sure that you have seen discrimination... its ugly and it rears its head up all the time... It seems that someone always hates someone, none of us are exempt from it...

Reverse discrimination will end when discrimination ends. Some will not hire a black, a gay, a Jew. Should a police department not have officers who mirror the community. Many police departments advertise for gay people to apply for a position because the department needs their representation for certain positions that a WASP cannot be effective in.

Funny you should bring this up, Juan. This was also the subject of a story reported here in San Antonio re 2 SAPD officers claiming racial and gender discrimination in the way they were reprimanded for strip searching patrons of a bar during a routine 'bar check' by a local gang task force...

<a href = http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/SAPD_sergeants_file_suit_against_employer.html> Here</a>

Sorry my PC won't let me use the HTML link creator... sigh!

I am still trying to find out if the test was prejudicial.

From all I have read noone is claiming the test or the way it was adminstered was prejudicial, the city simply wanted to promote people who didn;t pass based on the ethnicty of the candiates.

Can anyone verify of the tests was the problem or was it tossed by the city simply because the people they wnated to promote didn;t pass?

If it was the latter then doesn't that sounds like discrimination? Or doesn't anybody care unless it is your group being the victims of it?

"Can anyone verify of the tests was the problem or was it tossed by the city simply because the people they wnated to promote didn;t pass?"

  I still don't know about the test and the validity of it, but I suspect it was OK.  Why ?  because of the way it got tossed out.  By crybabying from the black firefighters to their black minister dude, who was cozy with Mayor DeStefano, who had power over the New Haven Civil Service Board (who threw out the test) + DeStefano's understandable intimidation from them when 60% of new Haven voters are black.  Put the jig say puzzle pieces together - a picture emerges that is more clear than the pieces.