The Murder of Dr. George Tiller

.If unborn children are morally equal to born children, then Roeder has just succeeded where the legal system failed: He has stopped a mass murderer from killing again.

 

This is what I see. The above. I had a few face to face encounters with DR. Tiller years ago. I need to make a few phone calls to Pro Life friends to find out. I had shut the encounders with him out of my mind years ago and it makes it hard to recall the details.

If I remember right he use to pitch some big fits with the protesters outside the clinic. I think he use to fly into Houston once a week to perform late term abortions.

 

I understand the frustration and anxiety that leads to a desire to go to extremes in the interest of sincere convictions.  As a protestor against the Vietnam War in my teens, I strongly sympathized with the violent rhetoric of the Weather Underground in defense of innocents being outrageously murdered.  Note:  I never killed nor promoted the murder of anyone.

Scott Roeder really is NOT an American hero.  He along with Tiller comprise just a tiny portion of a continuuing American tragedy.  There are no heroes in this story.

Regardless of how you feel about the issue of Choice, regardless of how you feel about the Dr, no one seems to be talking about all the families that were at the church that day.  Watching a cold blooded murder has terrorized and traumatized men, women and children. 

I PROMISE that there are going to be people, children in particular, who are going to have nightmares, maybe for the rest of their lives.  Who are going to need therapy, again, maybe for the rest of their life.  Yet I haven't heard ANYBODY talk about them. 

These people got up on that Sunday morning, got dressed in their fancy clothes, went to church, maybe planning on going to brunch,  and saw a COLD BLOODED MURDER.  If this had been a school or an office, if a kid, or an adult, had brought a gun to kill just one person, we'd be hearing about psychologists and social services and all kinds of help for the "survivors".  HOW is this ANY different? 

All of these "pro lifers" who are so glad this murder happened, don't seem to be the least bit concerned with the parishoners that had to watch it.  Do they not count?  Are they unimportant because this man was "doing God's work"?  WHAT ABOUT THEM?

Good point, Elizabeth. I'm sure many of the people who witnessed Dr. Tiller's murder will be traumatized and terrorized. Most of us are fortunate enough to live our entire lives without ever seeing anyone murdered in cold blood by a gutless coward. The men, women, and children in that church aren't so fortunate.

My guess is that the people who are pleased that Dr. Tiller is dead, and who consider Scott Roeder to be some kind of hero don't really care about those people at all. Presumably, they not only want more people traumatized and terrorized, they also want more people to be executed the "heroes" like Roeder.

I've been told that what would give people, the children nightmares WASN'T the cold blooded murder of the DR, it was the fact that the DR was a "murderer of children".  SO, I would agree with you Will, these people don't give a damn about the people that are here, or the people that were THERE, they only care that they now have a "hero".

That was an article I think most people, regardless of stand will appreciate.  Unless you are an absolutist on the subject, it's easy to see the unease many have with the issue.

Like you, I'm pro choice but I still think it's an act that at best is morally troubling.  I do not support late term abortions however except in csaes of emdical emergency.  On this particular issue, I can say the murder of this man was also wrong because it was murder.

Unlike Tony H. I won't condemn anti abortion people in general though, using the scenerio of an unwanted child as better off not existing isn't that much support for the postion.  He in turn is judging others also without full facts.

Used to my broad statements Tony H?

I'm sure you can list reasons for abortions, so could I.  I've also sadly seen the results of unwanted children.

I did say I support the right of an individual to do what they will with their body with the exception of late terms in general.

Wil made it clear, it's seldom a black or white issue (at least for many of us).  The unwanted children issue is one I feel that is the weakest and it's the one you used to judge Scott's statement on.

I'm not belittling child abuse in any way nor do I think the effect on children is somnething to be taken lightly.  However, a abortion is final and a child always has some hope of a future.

We are talking in circles as you are trying to say I said one thing when I didn't.  I don't like abortion but I support an indiividuals right to get one.  I just hope it's always a last resort

Thanks Charles. For me, the absolute arguments create more problems than they solve, and as with most things, the key is to try to find a reasonable position somewhere in between the extremes. At the end of the day, lots of things are (or at least can be) morally troubling, but we have to find ways to deal with them, both individually and collectively.

How true, Wil.  People span a huge spectrum when it comes to a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.  For some, it's black and white - even 'mass murder'.  For others, it's acceptable within certain time constraints.  For others, it's a choice between a doctor and patient regardless of time constraints, no questions asked.  If a doctor has swore an oath to do no harm to their patient, then the understanding is they are doing what is best for the woman involved.

I think a lot of people who would answer polls by saying they are 'pro-life' would be right down at the abortion clinic with their 13-yr-old daughter if she found herself pregnant, raped or voluntary.  That's why it should always be a private decision between a doctor and patient - and not a political one. 

And for all the people who are anti-choice because of their religious beliefs, I remind you that we do not live in a theocracy.  We do not make law based on the Torah, or the Koran, or the Bible, or any other religious text.  We make laws based on secular beliefs, including the right to self-determine and the right to privacy, including a woman's womb. 

The Bible doesn't even talk about it at all.

 

It's become a huge partisan political thing - all emotion and flags, and little more.

 

If you care about life a lot, become a vegetarian first.  That's something YOU can do every day.

 

There are so many ways to show your belief in the 'sanctity of life', Peter.  I agree.  How many of those celebrating Dr. Tiller's death and protesting abortion are actually involved in alleviation poverty in the world, or wiping out malaria, or building clean water systems, or tutoring disadvantaged kids, or volunteering to be foster parents, etc. etc.?  How many are doing work to wipe out the major causes of death among children in the world RIGHT NOW?  Children who are today breathing and living, but tomorrow will be dead?  How many are protesting war - and the killing of innocent children and pregnant women in other countries? 

 

You're absolutely right, Sheryl. It's hard to imagine that there are some parents who would force their 13-year-old daughter to carry a baby to term, even if she'd been the victim of rape, but I have no doubt that they're out there.

Sad its it Wil.

I find it ironic that the worst of the worst criminals if they are killed in the act of robbery or crime are automatically cananoized but take this guy who was out to help people and he is a demon.

 

The world doesnt make sense.

And if there's any doubt about how many people Dr. Tiller helped, I recommend reading this Salon article by Kate Harding, this one by Kate Michelman, and this DoubleX article by Emily Bazelon. And I'd also recommend reading some of the stories shared at A Heartbreaking Choice.

Many so called Christians are dancing in the streets with the news of this Doctors assasination.

where?

I think dancing in the streets is over-the-top, Juan, but it's clear that there are people out there who are pleased that Dr. Tiller has been murdered, and they believe that Scott Roeder is a hero rather than a gutless coward and a murderous terrorist.

The Taliban execute and murder hundreds on a regualar baisis all under the guise of Islam now we have Christians doing the same.

You forgot to add that the war in Iraq is "God's War".

no exaggeration in that statement Juan?  Hundreds murdered on  aregular basis?

This issue is emotional enough without you trotting out such nonsense

Well said Wil. I haven't watch the news in past couple days (personal reasons), but I have heard things today at the store that made me want to stomp my feet and holler like a child. People are making comments that the man who murdered the doctor was in the right because he stopped a killer. One lady even made the comment that is was "like self-defense, he just did it in the name of all those little babies"....I just told my co-worker put it (gas and smokes) on my credit, I had to leave quickly.

Thanks, Nellie. It kind of makes you wonder why those ladies aren't out shooting women who they know have had abortions, huh? I guess they're just not as "heroic" as Roeder, and just have to be appreciative that he's done the dirty work for them.

http://sirenschronicles.com/2009/05/31/pro-life-nutjobs-murder-dr-george-tiller/

 

Look at some of the comment here to see support.

Fringe nut jobs Lori.  Its like saying all lefties were cheering the caskets coming home from Iraq because they didn't like the war because a handful of loons did.

This issue is one that has all kinds of shades of support/dislike.  We can't let the fringes control the argument and as long as abortion rights/pro choice what have you lump all those who don't agree with them with the fringes, this issue will just get more vicious.

http://www.armyofgod.com/

 

or there.

 

Those folks are saying that the murderer is a hero.

So is Scott....

the army of god website has several links that I am sure you might find a video or two.

I have watched Doctor Tiller on TV, gunned down at a church parking lot by a Madman and Idiot called Scott Roeder. His tragic death presented by Anderson Cooper 360 CNN .... Other abortion doctors live in fortified castles, the fear of Extremist Religious Idiots and Bigots ( usually Republicans ).

Scott Roeder is a Right Wing Extremist, Religious Fundamentalist Bigot and Idiot and that he wants to rule the World by Brute Force and Firearms.

The idiot murderer is the son of these bigots of Hate TV and Racist Media, he was very fond of them, Radio Talk Shows of Hate .... These anchors are also idiots earning a lot of Money thanks to Hate, Bigotry, Imbecility and Wild Religious Extremism.

There has been a Great Tsunami of Hate after the election of Obama.

And now with the nomination of Sandra Sotomayor the Republicans have descended to the lowest Vulgarity and Racism.

I can forgive the Idiots of Fox News.

But to forgive Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanam and Tom Tancredo ???

After the honors and positions that these guys have occupied in society ??

This trio is the Perfection in Racism and Imbecility.

The New Improved and Enhanced Show of the Three Stooges.

These clowns of 2009 are the best in Slapstick Comedy.

 Milenials.com

Vicente Duque

"Scott Roeder is a Right Wing Extremist, Religious Fundamentalist Bigot and Idiot and that he wants to rule the World by Brute Force and Firearms."

Yes, it appears that he is, and that he's got some supporters who wish there were more like him in the world.

I hope you feel better now that you've gotten all that off your chest, Vicente.

I might have exaggerated some, but only to illustrate the rhetoric by the Pro-Life zealots that continue to paint individuals such as Dr.Tiller as murderers and say it as a matter of fact, when it is really a matter of perspective and personal and religious beliefs.

I can just see the defense  "It was justifiably homicide."

Excellent article, Wil. It's a sad situation all around, and I don't really see an end to it any time soon. We certainly live in scary times.

Thanks, Shannon. I think the important thing is to refuse to live in fear, and Dr. Tiller was an excellent role-model in that regard. As Kate Michelman said in the article I linked to earlier:

George Tiller was among the most selfless of men I have ever known. Surely being stalked for a quarter-century or more by extremists who repeatedly called for his murder in public was not what this compassionate doctor had in mind when he started medical school. Nor was practicing medicine under armed guard, or having his clinic bombed, or being shot in the very arms he used to save lives. But Dr. Tiller did have one goal in mind when he embarked on his career: caring for his patients, which is precisely why he braved these threats. The intimidation of other physicians strengthened his resolve. It must also strengthen our resolve to protect the right he was murdered for upholding.

It's just sad to see so many not care about the 60,000 deaths by the hands of Tiller. Does not the so called pro choice have any heart? I have  been called evil , sick and all kinds of names and I could care less what people that support the murder of the little ones say.

It's sad to see the FANATICAL so called pro-lifers NOT give a DAMN about the innocent bystanders that had to WATCH this murder. 

 

It is also sad that the pro-lifers are willing to let children suffer after they are out of the womb.

" I'm sure many pro-life/anti-choice people do think about the damage that can be done to a child who is neither loved nor wanted by their parent(s), "

Does the fact that an innocent child  isn't loved nor wanted by his/her parents place less value on his/her life?

I would imagine that if the child is neither loved nor wanted by his/her parents, then those parents would coinsider that child's life of little value. As for whether other people would value the child, I'd say that many would in an emotional sense, but not necessarily in any concrete, practical sense. And by that I mean value their lives enough to do something like adopt them.

"It is also sad that the pro-lifers are willing to let children suffer after they are out of the womb."

Haven't we all suffered after we were out of the womb?

If we were to apply your comment to all of humanity, we all should have been aborted while still in the womb.

I guess that's the thing, isn't it, Tim? We don't apply the comment to all of humanity. We draw lines, try to find an acceptable middle-ground, rather than adopt extreme positions. We say we value giving people choices, but not all choices. We say we value life, but not all life. If we didn't draw those lines, we couldn't survive, either as individuals, or as societies, or as a species.

Well put, Wil. Thanks for posting what many of us are thinking (even if we never say it aloud).

Thank, Jason. You're very welcome.

" And by that I mean value their lives enough to do something like adopt them. "

I'd say that there are people who would adopt them. I've known several couples throughout my life where the woman was unable to conceive a child and they chose adoption. But then again not everyone is in a position to adopt a child. However that doesn't mean that they don't place any concrete value on the lives of children.

 

" We draw lines, try to find an acceptable middle-ground, rather than adopt extreme positions. We say we value giving people choices, but not all choices. We say we value life, but not all life. "

Some people value the lives of convicted death row murderers who have taken innocent lives over the lives of innocent children who have done nothing to hurt any living being.

 

 

 

from some older musings {are suicides very late term abortions?}

A Different Voice

"Mommy, don't make me!
Don't keep me and hate me.
Your poisoned womb
tears my soul.
Please let me go."

"Child, it will be alright.
I'll give you to strangers
who have prayed for your life."

"No, Mommy. Don't you see?
I am your destiny.
Please release me. Do what you must.
In this inner voice, put your trust.
Grieving, set my spirit free.
You know this is meant to be.
We know how much you care.
This is your cross to bear."  

 http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977302889  

child's prayer

  http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976837366  

abortion wars and reconciliation

Thanks for sharing your poem, and your links, Libramoon.

"I'd say that there are people who would adopt them."

Really? There are over a hundred thousand children in the U.S. awaiting adoption, and you think that if another 800,000+ were added, they'd all get adopted? I don't think so, Tim.

"Some people value the lives of convicted death row murderers who have taken innocent lives over the lives of innocent children who have done nothing to hurt any living being."

That may well be true, Tim, but I don't see what it has to do with the murder of Dr. Tiller.

"However that doesn't mean that they don't place any concrete value on the lives of children."

OK, but what good does it do those children to be valued if they experience no actual benefit from it? If a child is starving, how does knowing that somebody, somewhere values their life in a general sense do them any good if nobody will give them food?

" OK, but what good does it do those children to be valued if they experience no actual benefit from it? If a child is starving, how does knowing that somebody, somewhere values their life in a general sense do them any good if nobody will give them food? "

Do you actually think that every child who has a chance to be born in to or experience poverty or starvation should be aborted? If so, then we should get busy and abort all babies.

"Do you actually think that every child who has a chance to be born in to or experience poverty or starvation should be aborted?"

No, I don't think that, Tim. Which is why I didn't say it.

" No, I don't think that, Tim. Which is why I didn't say it."

That's good. Sorry if I misunderstood.

conventional family units. You, Will and Timothy can not even conceive of a world without conventional family units. You talk of adoption as if a child needs to have one mother, and one father or what ever else the conventional family unit consists of or does not consist of. Did you ever consider that it just may be our inability to see life in a world without conventional family units that is responsilble for the abortion issue to begin with. Every woman who is pregnant should have her child, it is societies failure if she doesn't, no one is to blame, but it is everyone's failure, not hers; howerver, this whole issue of abortion may not even have to be an issue if we could look at every child that is born as our own, societies children in other words. Children don't need one mother and or one father living under the same roof, everyone who chooses to could be their mother's and father's and their friends too. There are plenty of kids with mothers and fathers that are going hungry. Just because a child has a mother and father and is wanted by both of them doesn't guarantee them security, comfort, or a full belly. The conventional family unit is one of the strongest forces that exists in the world today, but it is also antiquated. We have to stop clinging to it as if it is the only conceivable way to go on with life and we need to start moving away from it, just a little, gradually and in the direction of community where children are everyone's, not just their mother's and their father's.

Barring that, and I am only being half or even less then half serious here, we could always go back to shot gun weddings. I recall hearing talk of them when I was coming up, sometimes they shock the young man and the young woman into their senses and their marriage actually works and as far as I can conjecture, the children are fine too.

I can only ascertain the depth of everyone's convictions who commented on this article by the lack of a response to my comment. If you are going to let me stop any further comment on an article that apparently was of such great significance to everyone who commented on it, my notion is that no one who has commented on this article has the courage to stand by any of their most profound convictions. Just so much blubber from those who shut their mouths and crawl into a corner when they are faced with a real challenge on any level.