Healthcare Reform and The President

Major money is being dumped on this by the insurance companies, and the swiftboat crew, believe it or not. All I can say is people better speak up now, or it's history. Dems are caving right and left, because though the majority in this country are for a single payer option, they aren't hearing enough from them, and they are getting money offers from the others.

Exactly, that's why we need to contact our reps, our president, and sign petitions to let them know what WE want.

Excellent, Elizabeth! Thanks for posting. Come on over and see what Pennsylvania is trying to do. Biggest obstacle is the Republican controlled state senate, sigh.

Thanks for posting this Elizabeth. I got this yesterday and did everything except offer to host... I barely have room to swing my cats, nevermind host a party ;>P...

The biggest problem I can see is the fact that single payor wasn't even on the table when the house committee met on this last week to discuss possible options!

Huh? Where did the question mark in my name come from???

What a mess this will end up being...especially for younger taxpayers.

What would you call what we have now?  Insurance companies take the biggest chunk of the pie that people and companies pay for premiums.  They routinely deny coverage, or deny treatment to up their bottom line, and people are DYING from this.  People who have no insurance are left to die on the steps of the hospital that COULD but WON'T save their lives.

I am all for it. 

Here's SICKOCURE.ORG as a link http://www.sickocure.org/speechless/

There may be changes needed to medical care, but speed is not the answer.  If you research the socialized medicine of Canada, you'll discover that it took years for the program to be introduced and to be installed.  Anything that comes too quickly will not be a good plan and will cost us all dearly.

If I thought that the government was serious about trying to find solutions the smart way, I'd be behind them.  I know what it's like to have no insurance.

BUT...I also know what it's like to pay my own way.  As a single mom, the most important things for me were to put a roof over my son's head, food in his mouth, and to be able to take him to the doctor when necessary.  You know what that meant?  It meant not buying many new things so that we had money available for health care.

While we're waiting for smart options, we need to re-educate people about what they should be doing with their money.

I was a single mom for years too.  I took in roommates to help make ends meet.  I have NEVER bought a new car, or much else for that matter.  Most of my and my son's clothes either come as gifts or from thrift shops.  There is no way that I could afford to put a roof over my son's head, food in his belly, and pay out of pocket for medical care.  I didn't live anywhere that had a "free" or "discount" clinic, and I usually had jobs that didn't provide insurance. 

Not buying new, expensive things may help, but it won't pay for it all.

You know, I too take offence to that. I too was a single-mom for years as well. I too bought second-hand to make ends meet and I too have been humbled to take the charity of friends. I never had a new car until recently. I without just to feed my growing son.  I too went without healthcare for myself just incase my son ever got sick. I rarely worked for employers that had healthcare coverage and when I did, I paid through the nose for a "family" plan just to cover my son...and even then it left HUGE gaps that I had to figure out how to fill.  Copays, Co-insurence, Prescriptions, Dental care about routine fillings...etc. It all adds up when you barely make enough to keep a rough over your head and food in your childrens' bellies.

It's disgusting how we treat those who simply don't have the means in this country!
Yes, it took years for Canada to implement Socialized Healthcare, but look: We've KNOWN our healthcare system has been broken for DECADES!

We spend THE MOST per person, per capita of ANY Developed nation...ANY!...and we get the LEAST in return!
There's NO Coordinantion of care.

There's No Where Near Enough Preventive Care!

There's NO goverment suppliments to coverage supplied by employers.

There's NO relief for elderly in the Medicare Gap...and don't give me "medicaid" that simply doesn't cut it, especally when so FEW providers accept medicaid and the ones who do...you wouldn't leave your pet fish to be attended by these "providers!"

Medicare and Medicaid STINK!
Plain and Simple.

Employer Provided Coverage is WAY too expencive for many employers to even offer and when they do, there are gaps you can drive Semi-Trucks through.

I, unfortunately, worked in the Managed Care field. I worked as a Physician Medical Billing specialist and my job was to sit on hold with insurence companies and argue for my patients. Insurence companies have WAY too much clout! They can arbitrarely deny coverage if and when they feel like it. Leaving those who rely on it to do without or fend for themselves.

It's wrong, it's broken and we NEED RELIEF TEN YEARS AGO!

Perhaps, Stacey, single moms learn how - the best - to care for their kids and their health care needs.  We're not afraid to find programs, to go without ourselves.  My biggest problems are with couples where there are two working people and they have no inclination towards taking care of their kids health.

I was to believe that one should give 10% to God (the tithe), 10% to savings (both before doing anything else!), then to pay no more than 25% of one's available pay check for housing (including utilities).  Following this forumla always meant that I had money for my son's medical needs. 

In all the years that I was a single mom, I was lucky that he only required a specialist once.  But that was a pretty serious injury to his hand and required a specialist for that.  Our family doctor, knowing that we didn't have insurance, called the hand specialist for us.  Then the specialist only saw my son twice (thankfully surgery was not required), and he instructed our family doc about what to look for otherwise.  The specialist also allowed me to make payments.

An elderly gentleman and I had a discussion recently about health matters.  He reminded me that in the old days the only thing insurance was for was for hospital stays, and even then the insurance was used for long term care or problems.  Because people did save (as I mentioned above), they had money set aside for smaller problems.

This wise gentleman also told me that when doctors could no longer barter for services, because their costs were going up, and when people stopped paying them, that's when they started being included in what insurance covers.

The medically needy programs in many states are there for when people who are working but cannot afford insurance have medical bills beyond what the state government thinks they can pay.  When I was married to my son's dad (who was 24 years older), the state of FL determined that with our income, we could either afford or work out payments for any medical issues under $4,000.  If, in any year, we had more than that, they would help us pay for them.  That happened only once, when my ex had a stroke. 

I also learned, after I spent those years as a single mom, that having insurance just for those catastrophies or just for those medical issues that one cannot pay or afford to make payments on, is really not that expensive.  In other words, if one looks at insurance the same way FL did with us, we might have been able to afford insurance with a $4,000 deductable back then, when we could not afford one with a $250 deductable.  But no one ever suggests that.

In my family, we don't buy things and we have no money for healthcare.
My work clothes (except the company provided parts) come from Goodwill. That includes the "nice" clothes I wear when photographing weddings (using my parents' equipment and a camera body that was given to me in better times). I don't own an article of clothing that is less than 5 years old. I wear my late grandfather's shoes to work because they fit me. They are the only work shoes I have.
I have worked since I was 15. I've been financially eligible for aid since I moved out of my parents' house. During all of the years I've been eligible for medicaid, I've only had it about half of the time because of problems within the system. There is no fixing that for my family. I've dealt with Job and Family Services enough to know that when they screw up, they don't have to make it right.
I've been uninsured for more than 50% of the last 20 years.
I've been poor for all of that time, and a mom for half of it.
My family lives on 1 1/3 LOW incomes because the rest goes to my husband's ex-wife. Part of the time we are a family of 3. Part of the time we are a family of 5. We have built-in expenses related to the divorce which include fighting to keep my husband's ex-wife from withholding his 2 daughters from him. In fact, we are in this financial situation because we either had to move to where we are or have our family torn apart forever.
There isn't housing available in our area which we could get following your formula, Marylin. There also isn't an insurance plan that fits into our budget. We can barely afford what we have now. In fact, there are bills on which we are behind, and we still run out of money at the end of the month.
We don't get medical care when we are self-pay.
Because of our situation, I currently have a front tooth that is super glued. That is my dental care plan... super glue. I have to re-do it every couple of days, and then about once a month, I have to take the whole thing apart, clean off the old glue, and put on new. I'd leave it to fall apart, but I can't chew without that tooth, and the part that's left has an exposed nerve. Yes, that feels really great when I glue it, but since all of the dentists in my area and the surrounding area require up-front full payment before they will even look at you straight, and I don't even have enough to pay to get it pulled, I don't have much choice.
I'm not a unique case. I have friends, co-workers, acquaintances, and family who are going through the same thing.
My parents, a retired school teacher and a disabled retired school teacher, are heading for the loss of their house due to medical bills and they have insurance.
That is the reality of poverty today. That is why even though I am normally against socialism and socialist programs, I am willing to consider socialized medicine in the US.

Hannah, she'll never listen, never get it.  I've tried to explain why her "formula" doesn't work for everyone, why she, is, or was, very lucky.  As some Christians would say, her heart is hardened.  She will readily take the insurance she gets from the government and turn around and tell you that the rest of us don't deserve it.  She is one of the biggest Marie Antoinette Syndrome cases I've EVER seen, and I've seen A LOT.

Elizabeth, I don't have a hard heart.  If you knew me personally, you'd know that's far from the truth.  But I worry about a government that cannot do anything right now taking on even more.  I worry that people will expect the rich to pay more taxes so that there is health care for the masses.  I worry that the fools in Washington will come up with something in the wee hours of the morning one day and will present a bill of 1000 pages for everyone to vote on without reading, and we'll be stuck with some horrible plan forever.

In other countries, people pay dearly for socialized medical care.  But here, there are so many people who pay no taxes at all. 

I know what it's like to be poor.  When I was injured at work and a single mom, my worker's comp pay was $850 per month and my attorney got 25% of that right off the bat.  My rent (with utilities and cable included, thankfully) was $500 per month.  That's not the forumla I was taught that works, and it didn't work very well.  But it helped that I had been working the formula for years and did have a little saved up.

Part of the problem here, Marylin, is that you seem to think that it is the same for everyone to be poor as it was for you to be poor. Everyone's situation is different, and everyone's resources are different. I've never had enough income to save up a little. Even if I had, I have chronic illnesses. I am supposed to be taking 3 different medications. I'm not getting them right now, because the combined cost of those plus the required regular doctor visits to get the prescriptions is greater than our monthly grocery budget.
There are people with the exact same number of family members as my family, with the exact same take-home income as my family, who I know are receiving help with rent, utilities, and child care on top of food stamps and government insurance. I get none of that right now. My family isn't eligible for most of it under the rules of the county where I live, and what we are eligible, we lost because of a case worker's decision to not enter information into the computer. If I get a small raise, we won't be eligible at all any more, even though the increased income won't be enough to get insurance through my work, and will be eaten by taxes (which do get taken out of my check and which this year got returned to my husband's ex instead of to us.
If I moved elsewhere, to a county with fewer people or a bigger budget, our eligibility would change and we'd get more help. We'd also lose contact with part of our family. Which should my husband choose, Marylin? Health care for his family, or contact with his daughters? Should he give up his kids so his wife can have medicine? Should he tell them we're moving away and won't see them again (until they're old enough to disobey their mom) so he can find out what's wrong with his knees? (Because their mother will stop visitation if we move away, and she can do that, because the Ohio court system doesn't help good fathers.)
There is no one formula for surviving poverty. One person's experience does not justify denying health care to thousands on the basis of the sentiment "If I can do it, you can do it." The comparison is flawed and the argument is invalid.

That's what's wrong with all of us, Hannah, don't you think?  Each one of us looks at the world not as it is, but as we are.  While I would agree that you have a huge problem, I would not say that the entire country has this same problem, nor that the entire health care system should change because of one situation.

What worries me most is that the idiots in Washington will rush to do something, that they will create a bill of over 1000 pages, that no one will read the bill, and that we'll be stuck with more stupidity.

As I've said before, the government has not proven it can do anything right. Why give it more control over our lives?

If you think the problem of lack of access to health care due to poverty is limited to me, or even localized to my area, then you are ignoring a lot of news. People are suffering this problem. It's not just me and my family, but nearly everyone I know and their families, not all of whom are anywhere near local to my area.
People all over the country are facing the same types of choices I've described above, or worse. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it not real, and it wont' make it go away.
I am starting to really agree with Liz on the Marie Antoinette syndrome statement.

We as a nation are very unhealthy.  If people spent just a little time educating themselves on how to stay healthy in the first place we wouldn't have such a need.  I don't like allopathic medicine and in fact think the only doctors that really should exist are ER and trauma physicians. 

Taking a pill for one thing leads to another and another... you get my point.

Really?  What would you say to my aunt who had her neck CRUSHED in a car accident almost 20 years ago and is now taking quite a bit of pain meds?  Or to someone like me who has to get epidural injections, rhizotomies, and take pain pills in order to walk?  Or my son who has asthma and had to see a specialist in allergies and asthma because medicaid refused to let me have him tested, and by the time I had insurance his lung capacity was shot?  ER and Trauma docs are fine, but we do NEED specialists, we need pediatricians, GPs, OB/GYNs, psychiatrists, and all the others.  If YOU don't then you should count yourself lucky

That wasn't my point.  I am talking about this apparent epidemic of diabetes, high cholestrol, high blood pressure etc... that can totally be controlled by diet and exercise.  We have made ourselves sick by eating junk food and sitting on the couch watching TV. 

We have been self-employed most of our adult lives and when we had any health insurance, we paid for it.  We have gone without it more than we have had it.  That's why I am an advocate for education.

Not ALL diabetics are afflicted due to bad diet! Type 1 Diabetes has MORE to do with Familial Genetics than obesity!

What of Orthopedic Surgeons? Who's gonna fix that broken leg or torn ACL? Hon, if it weren't for my Ortho-surgeon, I wouldn't be walking!

Yes, Education is all fine and good and don't get me wrong. You're 100% right that we need MORE of it, but there are other instances where specialists are indeed NECESSARY!

My partner NEEDS her Endocrynologist who helps her stay Pro-Active with her Diabetes...and Yes, her's is Genetic!

I NEEDED my gastro-entrologist when my family genetics caught up with me and I found out I inhereted Barretts Esophogitis! (which is extremely rare in females..btw)

My son NEEDED his allergist to find out what food allergies he had and thankfully was able to grow out of!

My Mom NEEDED her Gastro when her duadinal ulcer claimed half her stomach, duadinum and a third of her intestines!

My Father NEEDED his Ortho to do his hip & knee replacements or he would not be walking at all!

My Sister-In-Law NEEDED her Neurologist for her Epilepsy which claimed her life all too young!! ( but without him, she may not have had two beautiful daughers!)

So, don't tell me the ONLY doctors needed are ER and Trauma docs...that's simply and uneducated and ignorant claim.

You are taking my comments way too deep.  What I am talking about is the people that eat at McDonald's everyday, drink no water and eat absolutely no fresh foods and wonder why they don't feel well.  I am a Naturopath and see this EVERYDAY! 

I spent years studying..... NOPE, not uneducated in any manner.

My mother is the thinnest person I know, she diets and exercises, and she has high blood pressure and MS.  Diet and exercise isn't the answer to every illness, some things are just hereditary.

You're right, Teresa.  So many of America's ills can be attributed to poor choices.  It starts at home, when parents rush into Mickey D's for chicken nuggets, rather than cooking something nutritious or giving a kid some fruit for snack.  It perpetuates because people keep saying that eating healthy is more expensive.  But it's not!!!  After my hubby was diagnosed with Diabetes II (which was definitely contracted because of his eating habits and obesity), our food bill dropped dramatically by eating more fresh fruits and veggies.  When your mouth has to chew raw fruits and veggies, it thinks it's eating more than it is.  And when we eat those prepared foods (and fast foods), that don't have the nutrients needed, our bodies scream out for more foods.  If we feed our bodies properly, they require less. 

That high fructose corn syrup that has been in EVERYTHING has finally been named the horrible thing most of us should have realized long ago.  Food dyes and preservatives have been linked to behavior problems in kids.

There is so much we need to learn!  (And it doesn't come from regular media or from regular doctors, since they rely on Big Pharma for everything.)

Can't you see that I am not picking on you... or even talking about you and your family specifically?  This is a generalization.  I am talking about the masses that are overweight, eating poorly and don't exercise.  They think that ketchup is a vegetable.  Please stop taking this personally.

Thanks Marilyn. 

Yep, Big Pharma is ALL about the money and nothing to do with our health.

Actually is was the GOVERNMENT that decided that Ketchup was a vegetable.

I remember it well,,,, and I don't believe anything the Government tells me.

Natural medicine works for some illnesses, but not all. There is not a single illness which exists in this country which can always and without fail be blamed on poor diet, lack of exercise, or any other incorrect behavior on the part of the patient.
To say that  is to show true ignorance, something which can and does transcend every level of education.
People need doctors. Most people who have told me that they are Naturopaths or otherwise told me they practice natural medicine, who have told me there were natural cures for this and that problem I'd been experiencing at the time... most of them turned out to be complete fruitcakes. One even managed to make me very sick by giving me something I turned out to be allergic to.
It's not that I don't believe in good nutrition, exercise, and trying natural remedies where appropriate... I do. I rarely go to the doctor for a cold because antibiotics don't cure viruses (which cause most colds) and the do make me sick. On the other hand, if I'm not better in a week, I'll trust my GP, not a Naturopath, and not an ER doctor.

Sorry but I really don't understand your comment.  I don't NEED a doctor unless I NEED a prescription because I can't write that myself.  Other than that you are very confusing. 

BTW  I am NOT ignorant and am VERY healthy.  I CHOOSE to work very hard at it.

"It's not that I don't believe in good nutrition, exercise, and trying natural remedies where appropriate..."

What?

That's everyday for me.  It's always appropriate!  All colds are caused by a virus and anti-biotics will NOT help..

Teresa, hard work aside, your good health is partly due to luck. You weren't born with a severe or disabling genetic health issue, and you haven't suffered a physical trauma which left permanent, progressive, irreparable damage. Congrats.

Good nutrition, exercise, and natural remedies don't make everyone healthy all the time. You can't "cure" Degenerative Disc Disease, severe Rheumatiod or Degenerative Arthritis, Mitral Valve Prolapse, Severe Asthma, Fibromyalgia, or a host of other ailments, the names of which I can pull from people with 1 degree of separation from me. You can't cure brain disorders caused by chemical imbalance. You can't cure illnesses which are at the severe or profound level. All you can do is help people who are all ready healthy stay that way as long as nothing unusual happens to them, and help moderately unhealthy people improve their health if their unhealth is caused by unhealthy behavior.
Not everyone's health problems are caused by things they can change, not every health condition is just a cold, and not every prescription is for drugs that make a problem go away. Some health issues are chronic. Some are terminal.

The statement that doctors are unnecessary is ignorant. It shows ignorance of the vast range of health issues which actually exist. The fact that a lot of practitioners of "natural medicine" make such claims, and in doing so sometimes persuade people to cease using needed medical treatment, is the reason why claiming that "natural medicine" can replace conventional medicine is, in some cases, a prosecutable offense.

It's why you can't sell garlic as a cure for chest colds, even though it helps prevent them. It's why you can't tell your customers to take garlic for their blood pressure instead of the prescriptions they get from their doctors. It's why an idiot of epic proportions who gave slippery elm to a high-school kid with asthma whose throat was irritated because of her allergy to tree pollen got a very stern and angry phone call from the sweet, nurturing Grandmother I'd never heard tell anyone off before.
I know about home remedies. My grandmother, an experienced, well trained, and very practical nurse taught me a lot about using them in conjunction with conventional medicine, not instead. My childhood doctor did the same (and saved my life in doing so), as does my current doctor... the one I can't afford to go to now because I have no insurance.
"Natural" remedies don't replace conventional medicine. When conventional medicine is needed, a natural remedy can boost its effectiveness if used correctly, but trying to replace conventional medicine with "natural" medicine can be deadly.
Bacterial infections such as Pneumonia, Strep, and Staff infections do require antibiotics (and garlic isn't good enough), but not necessarily an ER visit. Chronic illnesses require careful monitoring and treatment, not necessarily at the ER. Sports injuries require conventional medicine, but not necessarily an ER visit. Female health issues require conventional medicine, and definitely not an ER visit. I don't think most men want their prostate exams done in the ER, either.
Physicians are needed. Period. End of story.

Natural remedies keep me from needing conventional medicine.  Can't you accept the fact that we think differently.  I didn't say doctors are unnecessary.  Yes, you can "cure" many dis-eases with natural remedies but it takes longer.  People want the magic pills and are not patient enough.  I don't remember typing anything about garlic..... please don't put words in my mouth.  Again, we think differently.... so let's just agree to disagree.

You did say doctors are unnecessary. In your original comment in this thread, you said, "...the only doctors that really should exist are ER and trauma physicians."
Garlic was my example, partly to show you that I do know something about "natural medicine." I never said it was a quote from your text. Please don't put words in my mouth, either.
My issue with your comments is your presentation. Your writing, particularly your first comment in this thread, appears to indicate that you think that all illnesses can be treated without the use of modern medicine. I take huge issue with that.
You aren't asking to agree to disagree, you are asking to be allowed to say whatever you think, and not be contradicted. That is not the same thing.
I would agree to disagree if you weren't arguing against the implementation of a program I think is necessary to make needed medical treatment available to people who can't get it now. Since your comments point that way, and since they do so on the basis of the idea that "natural medicine" can prevent the need for conventional medicine, I'm perfectly justified in pointing out where I think you are wrong.

'You aren't asking to agree to disagree, you are asking to be allowed to say whatever you think, and not be contradicted. That is not the same thing."

I don't mind being contradicted, in fact I love a good debate.  I am sharing my opinions only and I don't care if people agree or not. 

You think we need allopathic medicine for everything and I don't.  They have their place obviously but not on a routine basis for me.

I am going to end this now because we will never see eye to eye. 

"You think we need allopathic medicine for everything and I don't."

Now who's putting words in whose mouth? My whole argument is over the statements you made that indicate a belief that "natural medicine" cures everything and conventional medicine is never needed except for emergency room stuff.
As for ending "this," go ahead. You don't have to reply to anything else I say. And you're right. As long as you keep making statements that read as anti-medicine statements, we aren't going to see eye-to-eye.

What a joy to open my emailbox this evening and find the link to this article. THANK YOU.

In 2009, we need to architect a new health care system.  If we rush into legislating, passing and signing any plan into law in 6 months time I can guarantee one thing.  It will be worse than what we have today.

We need to form a focus group that consists of doctors, nurses, patients, lawyers (yes, lawyers), insurance companies, financial experts and Medicare/Medicaid subject matter experts.  We need to determine what works, what doesn't work, what needs to change, who will be impacted and how we'll be impacted.

After all that is done, then we can start on legislation.

Please visit WWW.PNHP.ORG  Physicians for a National Health Plan.  They have some great info.

Amen, Don.  We've seen what rushing in does to us. 

Lawyers are involved in our medical care system now. They are one of the main reasons why health care is so expensive.

True, Hannah, but they're not going to go away.  How about permitting doctors to practice without malpractice insurance, with the patient understanding that they can't sue?

That would work great if doctors never made mistakes or if doctors' mistakes never had huge impact on the lives of patients when they happen.
Malpractice lawsuits are out of control, and they are one of the main reasons why medical care is so expensive, but eliminating the ability for a patient who is damaged by a doctor's mistake is a wrong move.
I would rather see actual reform in the way the Frivolous Lawsuit industry is handled. Maybe if Lawyers could get jail time for participating in the filing of a meritless suit. There should be a strict set of criteria for suing a doctor or medical facility, and that criteria should be enforced.
Once the frivolous suits are weeded out, there won't be a lot of reason for Malpractice insurance to be so high. Then, if insurance companies don't drop their prices, there will have to be regulation.
Absolutely, whether or not our country goes for some form of Socialized medicine, the Frivolous Lawsuit industry (in all areas, not just medical) needs to be reigned in. It's created unnecessary expenses in every aspect of life. Your homeowner's (or renter's) insurance, auto insurance, and any liability insurance you might have on a business if you own one... all of these are overpriced because of fear of frivolous lawsuits. Everything you pay for, you pay a little bit more because of that fear. A company which employed me was hit by a frivolous lawsuit a couple of years ago. It cost one of my co-workers her job, my store a full-time person's worth of hours, the company a bunch of time making a new policy, and the customers a service the company no longer offers out of fear of being open to another frivolous suit. I can't give any specific details, or I'll be in violation of the settlement, but I'll say that the situation was ridiculous, the individual in question had to really make a stretch to "justify" the suit, and the deciding factor was more related to who was suing than anything else.
Looks like it's time for me to finish and post the article I was working on related to my thoughts on the Frivolous Lawsuit Industry. I have the part about the lawsuits done... just haven't written the reasons for my thoughts on the subject.

Was it the "coffee is hot" lawsuit? (G)

In the old days, people did not sue doctors or hospitals.  They knew that these people were human and made mistakes.  In my family, we lost a cousin to those mistakes.  Instead of giving him lots of fluids (because he was vomitting and having diarrhea), they witheld fluids from him and he died a painful death from being dehydrated.  He was only a toddler.  But there was no thought or idea about suing.  People made mistakes.

My own husband has mild CP for two reasons - they used forceps on him when he was born and then he was dropped on his head.  Either could have been the cause of his CP; both probably made it a for sure thing.  But his family never thought of suing.  People made mistakes.

If we had that same attitude now, and if persons who made numerous mistakes were run out of the medical field, there would be no need for malpractice insurance and our medical costs would drop dramatically.

No Liz, it was way after that one... It was much later than that. That was a pretty stupid suit, though.
The suit I am talking about never made it to the courtroom - the company was so scared that they rolled over without a fight.

I know, it's just the MOST frivilous lawsuit I'd ever heard of.

Ok I've finished the article and posted it. I'm not going to link to it because Gather considers that comment spamming. It's relevent to this thread, but it's too long to post here as a comment, so I'll say this instead:
It is essential that there be serious, lasting reform to the legal system with regards to the Frivolous Lawsuit industry, or anything that gets done with regards to the health care system, whether it is socialized medicine or something else, will fail due to the legal expenses involved.

Thank you for making my point that lawyers must be part of the discussion.

...so they can create loopholes through which they can file more frivolous lawsuits!

Lawyers don't police themselves unless they've all ready been caught by the general public in a big way.

dear mr. obama,

please don't get nationalized health care here.

I lived with it in Australia and watched my dear close friend DIE of cancer while she waited for an OK to see a "specialist."  I watched youngsters suffer with simple ear infections and strep throat while they waited for "their turn" to see the doctor.  I watched as people were not able to chose their own doctor, but instead had to go to the one the government appointed for them.

I also watched as foreign doctors came and set up private practicies, that only the wealthy could afford to go to.  The wealthy got great care while the middle and lower class suffered.

Right now I have NO healthcare. 
I have a serious illness and need expensive medication every month.  I pay for this out of pocket. It's not easy to do, but the alternative is worse.  Right now at least I am able to get care when I need it, without waiting.

Right now we have laws in place in our country that protect the poor. If they need care, they can not be denied at the emergency room.   Where will they go when they are denied and have to wait to see a doctor?

What do you think insurance companies do NOW?  They tell you what doctor you can see, what hospital you can go to, what procedures you can have, what medicines you can take, etc.  People are DYING here because they don't have insurance or any way to pay for medication or treatment.  The ER only has to TRIAGE you, they only have to make you stable, they don't have to "fix" you, or treat you in the long term.  If you go there to often for the same thing, they can refuse to treat you, claiming you're after drugs or some other ridiculous excuse. 

Elizabeth, have you ever known anyone turned away from the ER without being treated?  I have not.  I've known people who go to the ER for everything from colds to simple burns and are treated.  I've known people with cancer who had no insurance who were treated for months.  Does it depend on where you live, perhaps?

Joy, I'm with you on this.  I've never had insurance turn me down for treatment, although they have tried.  I've argued my case as has my doc and it was approved.  And when I had no insurance, I paid for care, even if it meant doing without the things others had.  It always meant telling my docs that I had no insurance.  In most cases, they actually charged less for my care since they didn't have to bill insurance and wait to see what they would or would not approve for payments.  And they always made sure I got samples.  One doc even called up a drug sales person and asked for samples for me.  :)

*I* was turned away from the ER without being treated.  They decided the pain in my stomach was a form of "withdrawl" from my menengitis/encephalitis and labeled me a drug seeker.  The next time I went to the ER I was left screaming in pain and vomiting for 8 hours.  When I FINALLY saw a doctor, he refused to treat me based on what the previous doctor had written on my chart.  I have Sphincter of Oddi Dysfunction, I'm on my 4th GI who is FINALLY going to help me.  The firlst one disappeared after doing HALF the surgery I need, the second one sent me to U of M where they wanted to use me as a guinea pig, so I went to my Pain Specialist and found a doctor who WILL help me. 

Marilyn, I had a hospital almost throw me out on the street during a level 2 snow emergancy knowing I had nowhere to go after surgery because my insurance wouldn't pay for me to stay. They weren't even going to let me stay in the lobby! Had I not threatened to go to the local news, I'd be dead.

Also... one of my customers at work has cancer. A few weeks ago, her trachia closed down to 1/2 centimeter because of it.
For those of you who have never had an asthma attack, try this:
Plug up your nose completely so you can't breathe through it. Some tissue or a paper towell stuffed in there should work.
Now, get a drinking straw, like you would buy at the grocery. Get a good seal around it so you aren't getting any air outside of it, and try to breathe like that. Try walking around the room at a normal pace. Try going about your daily activities. Try climbing a set of stairs. Try doing your job. Try not to get frustrated when your insurance company... not your doctor, but your insurance company, says that's not so bad, and you don't need oxygen while you wait to see a more specialized specialist because your specialist says he can't put a stint in your throat without killing you. While you wait, try not to think about the fact that he also told you your throat could close at any time and kill you by slowly choking you to death in front of your helpless friends and family.
It's amazing that she made it to the second specialist, who was able to do the sting. It's fortunate for her that she has the insurance she has... my mother's insurance wouldn't have covered the treatment my customer has been getting for the last year.

Elizabeth,

We will not get that comprehensive health care reform because of the huge amount of money opposing it!  What we will get, if we are lucky, is the first steps in that direction so that it can be accomplished incrementally.  Obama is smart enough to know that both sides of congress are totally dependent on the insurance industry for their campaign money, that they can only move so far or risk loosing everything as was done by the Clintons in the ninety's.

We've been a long time waiting for some kind of relief.  Your last comment above is really quite accurate!

Even a toe in the door is a HUGE step forward IMHO.

Marylin,

You are correct, that many doctors will take it easier on an uninsured person.  That does not mean that it will be brought to where it is affordable.  The majority of bankruptcies are directly attributable to medical expenses.

A hospital refused this week to admit my sister in law when she couldn't breath due to COPD, because "she did not meet their standards for admission" and the family was forced to take her elsewhere.  That's refusing a patient who obviously cannot breath well and is in misery.  And it does happen.  None of the hospitals around here will treat someone on a continuing basis, for cancer or other long term illness.  They will usually evaluate and often treat burns, flu, diaper rash, or other things such as this which may not be true emergency, but actual care is not guaranteed beyond stabilization.

My family is likely to be one of those families WITH healthcare who are STILL going to have to declare bankruptcy BECAUSE of healthcare.

That's true, Elizabeth, Chuck,

I've already written several times to our President, as well as our State Rep's and sent e-faxes from another site, as has my wife. We're on our President's email list and have the opportunity  to respond to the emails he periodically sends out. Do we get a response? No, never.

Also true that SSDI/Medicaid/Medicare doesn't cover anything and the ER isn't the place to go for anything long-term, plus you'll be paying on one bill for a long time, like we've been, going on three years now, but my wife made payment arrangements asap, and hopefully we'll get it paid off this year. She has no health insurance and medicare is deciding what they will and won't cover. Which is a no in many cases.

To day that people don't need specialists, is to condemn many to death - to say that everyone can save that amount of money each month, well, maybe it depends on the state you live in, as we don't live in the same state as Marilyn M., and that's a state law, not a federal one. My wife is very educated and eat out? With what? She's a homecook and we eat what she cooks, period.

You cannot assume things about people you do not know, Teresa.

Mark

Right on Mark!  People seem to think that because they are lucky EVERYONE is lucky.  I've been in and out of hospitals my whole life.  Born with Epilepsy, Migraines, and a problem with Vertigo, developed a back problem as a child, and been without insurance or prescripition coverage.  There was even a time that I was on a "spend down" Medicaid account, I had to spend $1000 per MONTH before they would cover ANYTHING for me.

I had a catastrophic illness. As a college teacher, I had excellent insurance, but I ended in bankruptcy.

This is so important to me, and I think fairly quick action will be taken by our president.

I hope you are right, I really do.

Thanks for posting this.... I think universal healthcare would be a good thing, I'm going to go read about it online now; and sign the petition as well.

Fantastic! When you are done send the info on to your friends.

Will do Elizabeth... I'm reading the bill now.... I wonder how many people who oppose it so much actually took the time to read it? I might write an article linking to it

Please do, I don't know how to do the "clicky links", and right now I'm to busy to learn.

but bills can be so hard to read, and so easy to oppose

We need to take back our health; take back our bodies; take back our minds; take back responsibility to make sure the marketplace provides what we need at a cost we can afford -- or find a different market, place, and paradigm

That's part of the problem, there is no REAL competition in healthcare insurance. 

Story? How about a lifetime of stories!
I'm going to have to pick the few worst ones and send those, or I'll never get it done. O.o

I just sent my most recent story including the part about Nick getting laid off after 11.5 years.

I think I'll send my labor story. The fact that the hospital was willing (when my insurance ran out) to kick me out into a snowstorm that merited a level 2 snow emergency, knowing that I had nowhere to go, and only changed their minds when I said I was going to the local newspaper, ought to make that a pretty persuasive argument.

I think that is a GREAT idea.  I thought about sending mine, seeing as how I now know that late decels(sp) plus myconium in his water and 4 hours of pushing actually should have merited a C-Section.  But, my current situation is more relevant.

How 'bout sending your mother's story as well, Hannah?  Her insurance has her stuck with a pain doctor who thinks pain meds are evil, and has her caught in the in-network/out-of-network whipsaw with the surgeon she prefers.

You are right. Mom's story needs to be told both there and here.
I have a lot of writing to do.

What if we boycotted unsatisfactory "health" insurance?  What if instead of paying these corporations, we had direct subscriptions to healthcare facilities and providers?  What if people within communities got together with local healthcare providers and developed systems in the best interests of all groups involved?

What if it weren't half-past WAY too late for ANY of that?

It's never too late

What if there are a buttload of people who can't subscribe to anything? What if some folks are so poor that instead of having money to put toward a system like that, we are scrambling at the end of the month to pay rent? What if there are those of us who are in real, measurable financial duress every time an unexpected $20.00 expense comes up? What if no one in the health care industry, the insurance industry, or the legal industry has the best interests of people like us in mind?

That's not a what if, hannah.  That is our current consensual reality.

Libramoon, I didn't consent to it. I didn't agree to be poor. I didn't agree to be injured, and I didn't agree to be sick. Maybe you consented to it, but I assure you that I did not. Neither did anyone else I know.

Hannah, if people don't have the money to pay anything towards health care now, will they have the money to pay for this new program everyone wants?  If not, who will pay for it?  Nothing is free.  Someone has to pay. 

Who pays for the healthcare members of Congress get?  Why shouldn't EVERYBODY be entitled to the same healthcare our Congresspeople get?

We pay for Congress, salaries, benefits and all.

I was envisioning (so shoot me, I'm an idealist) community healthcare facilities, community healthcare professionals (maybe even community healthcare colleges).  Those who could easily afford it would be encouraged to pay for sustaining subscriptions.  Those who had nothing would get free subscriptions, or would get government subsidies such as Medicaid, but with much less cost.  Those of moderate means would pay less than they do now for "insurance" yet get much better care without all the denials.  Healthcare professionals could spend their time giving care, not dealing with insurance companies or billings.  Just a little common sense, enlightened self-interest and calm deliberation could do it.

The federal budget includes a huge number of items which can be eliminated. Citizens Against Government Waste has a website where they explain their views on government waste, their criteria for what constitutes pork barrel spending, and give a huge list of items which fit that criteria.
Officials from both sides of the political fence are represented in this list. Both parties have loaded up the budget with frivolous items, costing billions of tax dollars when looked at all together. Apparently both Democrats and Republicans think these items are very important, and that there is room for them in the budget, because they voted for the bills which included them all.
I think the question should be, which of these items are more important than health care, and why?

Health care also needs to become less expensive. There are some ridiculous reasons why the cost is so high. I believe that there will be a lot more interest among legislators to take real, effective, long-term-solution-oriented steps toward making health care less expensive when it is their responsibility to budget for the cost. Until they have to figure out how to cover those costs, they won't give a rats rear about runaway lawsuits and other budget-breakers hitting the medical industry.

I also think that instead of taxing the crap out of doctors and medical facilities (not just income, but every other tax involved in running a business) it would be a good idea to consider dropping some of those taxes, which also contribute to medical expenses. The medical community, however, would be expected to reduce fees in response to their reduced costs.

This is a program which is needed to fix a problem which has been largely created by government involvement. If issues regarding the cost of health care can be addressed and solved during the time that socialized medicine is in place, then the idea of re-privatizing the medical industry can be addressed, just as the idea of Deregulation of Telecommunications .

Libramoon-I know, a utopian ideal.  It's wonderful, but I don't think that will ever happen, unfortunately.

I think it's reasonable to provide the same level of health care for citizens as our elected officials receive.  Two of the cost inflators are:

1. medical malpractice lawsuits and liability concerns, including malpractice insurance.

2. free health care being provided to illegal aliens in the USA.

We obviously have different standars of care throughout the country.  While we're waiting for a brilliant plan from Obama and Congress, perhaps we need to make sure that the ERs are not turning people away anywhere.  And that people don't have to declare bankrupcy for medical issues.  At hospitals where I've been, they'll accept $20 per month on a regular basis if that is all you can afford.  I know one woman who took 5 years to pay off her bill for the delivery of her baby, and it was a normal delivery, not something costly.   As long as she made regular payments, they were happy.

It's nice that you have such lucky friends who either rarely have medical problems or have all kinds of extra cash on hand to send $20.00 per month to every physician and hospital they've had to visit over the years.
My disabled mother, who was profoundly injured in an auto accident 25 years ago, has enough doctors that if she sent them $20.00 per month, that would take up my parents' entire monthly income.
Dad sends money to whichever doctors, clinics, and hospitals he can, when he can. They are all threatening to sue, anyway. Even though they have insurance through the State Teacher's Retirement System, medical bills are drowning my parents.
Mom isn't eligible for Social Security disability partly because she was a school teacher and paid into the State Teacher's Retirement System, and partly because she didn't work long enough to pay enough into the Social Security System to qualify. Since she only taught full time for a few years, she has no retirement from her teaching, either. Now, she's 62 years old and is, from any employer's point of view, physically disabled.
My dad, who is a diabetic and an old man in terms of his family's life expectancy, has had to go back to work at a hobby store in order to pay some of their bills. Even with a job to supplement his shrinking retirement income, there isn't enough money coming in to keep up with what's going out. In the meantime, the insurance company which provides insurance for Ohio's retired teachers tried to cancel Dad's policy because he had taken another job, claiming that he was required to get insurance through his new employer if it was available. They didn't even check first to find that out, because that's not the real reason they're trying to get rid of this particular client; they don't want to pay for my Mom's care. Mom is expensive. She has Degenerative Disc Disease, Degenerative Arthritis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Fibromyalgia, a Prolapsed Mitral Valve in her heart, severe Asthma, Restless Leg Syndrome, and a host of allergies including some which affect the way she has to be treated in the hospital. There are other health issues which also complicate the above mentioned medical conditions.
My parents aren't going to be able to pay off their medical bills in 5 decades, much less 5 years. If something doesn't change soon, I'm afraid they won't be around in 5 years to worry about it anyway.

When you don't pay in full, Ohio medical facilities send your bills to shady collection agencies which practice creative bookkeeping in order to keep you in the red.
One such agency had my medical bills from a car accident I was in 12 years ago. One of those bills came from a facility to which I'd never been, from a physician who had never treated me. After I disputed that bill, the agency diverted the money from my monthly payments all to that bill to pay it off first so that I couldn't have it removed from my total debt without hiring a lawyer (at more per hour than I made in a week) and taking the original creditor (the facility in question) to court in a city that was an hour's drive away from my home. I found out after the fact, when there was nothing I could do without spending money I didn't have. The reason I found out was that they sent me a notice of intent to sue over the bills to which they were not applying any part of my payment while they diverted it to the illegitimate bill. They were so confident of their ability to get away with what they were doing that they told me about it, knowing I didn't have the money to go to court.
One of my co-workers had her wages garnished (without prior notification) by a collection agency for a medical facility. The agency had gone to court to obtain legal permission to garnish, and received it, all without notifying my co-worker. They were able to do so after claiming they had sent notification to her "last known address" even though she hadn't moved since before the treatment for which she was being billed and had given her new address to the facility in question (even if she hadn't, it was on the checks she sent them.) She was only paying them a few bucks a month (because that was all she could afford) so the facility sent the bill to collections, and so on. The amount they took out of her check was way more than she could afford... she had to beg her landlord not to evict her when she couldn't pay rent on time every month for the 4 months it took her budget to recover from the hit.
Another friend of mine got hit with the same trick last year. An ex-fiance was hit with it a decade ago.

The hospital I owe thousands of dollars to, said the LEAST amount they would take for a payment plan was $45 a month.  We've been doing it because they gave us aid, for the FIRST bill.  Now we owe several more thousand to the same hospital, and one bill they sent me for $103.45 they threatened to send to a collection agency.  We actually have several SEPERATE bills for the same hospital, and in TOTAL owe thousands.  This hospital will NOT take $10 or $20 a month, so I'm most likely going to have to declare bankruptcy because of them.   

Hannah, that's where I learned that even though something has been sent to collections, you should always send the bill to the original creditor - the hospital or doctor.  Then they have a record of you trying to make a payment, and they will forward the check to the collection agency, but they know the money was sent.

That doesn't work everywhere, either. Around here, once a bill has been sent to collections, the original creditor refuses payment. This has happened to me. They don't keep track of anything, and eventually can't even provide you with the original paperwork regarding the debt. In the meantime, if you don't pay an agency fast enough, they sell the debt off to another agency, which sells it to another, etc. or they sue.

Marilyn:  Stop bleating nonsense.  People who owe $40, $50, $100 THOUSAND DOLLARS in medical bills can't pay it off at $20.00 a month.  And hospitals DO NOT have to accept any such payment arrangement.  They simply force you into bankruptcy.  At some point, they're gonna sic colletion agencies on you, and then you're done.

Secondly, sarcastic remarks like "...a brilliant plan from..." whoever isn't gonna stop this.  We've had DECADES (not just since the early days of the Clinton Administration), to listen to this information and do right by the folks who are actually IN the soup.  This is no sudden thunk-up problem, but it IS a problem we need to fix NOW, or we never will.  If you don't like the fix, you should have thought of something better a long time ago.  We've thought this one through, and we like it.  You're gonna have to live with it, right along with us, since you gave us nothing better.

"This is no sudden thunk-up problem..."
That's for sure. This is not a new problem. It is a widespread problem. It's a huge part of the reason behind the depression. It's a major chunk of why the auto industry is in trouble, and if it isn't addressed, it's going to hit every business that provides health benefits. It's not a new problem, and it's not just a health care problem. It's an economic domino of doom that maybe we can keep from knocking over too many other industries if we address it soon enough... if it isn't all ready too late.

No kidding.  If you took healthcare off of the shoulders of businesses jobs would BLOOM.  You could see both wages and employment rise.

But Chuck, when someone does come up with a plan - like the doctor in NY who was charging his patients a small subscription fee monthly, then only $10 for each visit, the government doesn't like that. 

I beg to differ with you about not being able to pay minimal amounts without going to collections.  It all depends upon where you live and how you handle things.  At one point, I had to take all of my income and expense records to one hospital to show them exactly what I could and could not pay.  They backed off and as long as I paid the minimum, they did not turn me into collections.

I knew a family in FL whose son had 3 heart surgeries before he was 10 years old.  They also paid minimal payments for years for the hundreds of thousands of dollars it cost.  As long as they made those payments regularly and on time, they were not turned over to collections.

You cannot really be forced into bankrupcy.  Can they sue?  Of course.  But if there is no money, there is no money.  You cannot collect from someone who has nothing.  However, if it can be proven that you CAN afford to make payments, they will force that.  And if you're unlucky enough to live in an area where they allow garnishment of wages, they'll do that.

Meanwhile, every time someone decides to duck their bills by declaring bankrupcy, those who do pay their bills end up paying more and more because they have to make up the difference somehow.  How fair is that?

I showed the hospital all of financial records and they told me the least they would accept was $45 per month.  We pay it, but it hurts.  Now we owe that SAME hospital thousands more, plus other hospitals, and doctors, etc.  There is no way that I can pay off all of those medical bills, not in this lifetime, and most of the money that you pay for doctors is actually for the insurance company and administration fees.  I *WILL* be forced into bankruptcy because I *CAN"T* afford the bills for these illness that keep popping up on me, and the regular treatment I need for my back so that I can function.  I can't afford a lawyer to fight a hospital or doctor or anyone else if they sue us, and we live in a state that garnishes paychecks for most anything.  I used to work for a collections agency and in MI they can garnish wages, put liens on propertys (house, car, etc) and get judgements that say they can come into your home and take anything that they think they can sell to pay off your debt. 

My sister HAD to have her gallbladder removed.  She went to the ER where the discount clinic doctor told her to go, and at the time there was a program for indigent people who needed emergency surgery.  She was in the hospital for two days and was in contact with a patient advocate.  WHILE SHE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL THEY STOPPED THE PROGRAM.  They stuck her with a $50,000 medical bill.  She had NO CHOICE but to declare bankruptcy.  She didn't have a wage to garnish, she didn't have property to put a lein on, she had her house forclosed on and she was living in my parents basement, (in the very apartment my family and I will be living in when we lose OUR home), she didn't have a pot to piss in.  

So, don't tell me you can't be FORCED into bankruptcy, that's bullshit.  That's like saying that the girl living on the street has a CHOICE between selling her body to buy some food and starving to death on the side of the road.  It's not a REAL choice. 

BTW, you want FAIR?  How FAIR is it that because I was BORN with medical issues, I can't get private insurance, even if I wanted it?  How FAIR is it that people tell me that a FORIEGN millionaire has more of a right to access OUR healthcare system than I do?  How FAIR is it that my husband is being laid off after 11.5 years without so much as two weeks severance BECAUSE we actually had to USE the healthcare we were provided with?  How FAIR is it that I can't get or keep a job because of the medical problems I was BORN with, or becuase of the ones I've developed?

Don't talk to ME about what's FAIR.  FAIR doesn't exist.

Actually yes, you can be forced into bankruptcy. A judge can make that determination when you are sued, if it is proved that you do not have the money to pay your bills.
If that doesn't happen, there is also wage garnishment, which has happened to people I know. Wage garnishment doesn't take into account whether or not you can pay your basic living expenses (rent, food, heating utility and water) before allowing a creditor to seize part of your income by taking it from your employer. When it happens, it can make the working poor, some of whom live paycheck to paycheck, homeless in a month or less, depending on how much eviction notice a landlord is required to give in each state.

I guess is pays to know which states don't garnish wages and live there.

When my son was born, I had to have an emergency C-section.  I had already paid for a normal delivery.  I had no insurance, and had to makek monthly payments in advance to the doctor and to the hospital.  I knew that in advance.  To me, that was the cost of having a child. 

Then, they had to do an emergency C-section, and what I had paid up front didn't cover that.

Because I didn't have insurance, I was out of the hospital in 24 hours - at my request.  The docs said I could leave as soon as I could use the bathroom on my own and if I had help at home.  As soon as I could use the bathroom, I was out of there, even though they wanted to keep me for 5-10 days back then.  I knew that we could not afford that.

The hospital computer was not working when I checked out.  Two weeks later we received a bill charging us with all kinds of things they would have done to me and the baby IF WE HAD BEEN THERE FOR 5 DAYS.  (I had insisted on an itemized bill, thank goodness.)  They also tried to charge me for a blood transfusion I did not receive (thank goodness my husband was there taking pictures of the C-section).

I argued for months with the hospital billing people.  Even though I had written proof that I was discarged within 24 hours of having delivered, they insisted on trying to charge me for things for days afterward, and I would not pay a nickel on the bill until it was revised and a proper total bill for what I did owe, beyond what I had already paid.

Eventually, they sued me.  Fortunately for me, my ex's daughter was an attorney and she helped us counter-sue the hospital.  They wanted $5,000 at this point, so we counter-sued for $10,000.  I wanted to be compensated for the harassment, for having them ruin our credit and reputation.

The case never went to court, because we were right and had the proof.  And I never got the $10,000.  But I did get an entirely free delivery.  Not only did they eliminate the bill, they also refunded what we had already paid.

My dad taught me to fight that way.  A few years before, I had been in the hospital for 3 days, drugged, and they never did find out what was my problem (horrible abdominal pains for about 5 days before going to ER).  When I left the hospital, they told me I owed $250 before I could walk out the door.  That was what my insurance would not pay.  I didn't have $250.  I was a single woman.  I had $175 in my savings account, and $190 in my checking.  I could have gone and transferred some money, but they wouldn't let me leave.  My credit card had a $500 maximum on it and I had already charged over $350, leaving only $150 on the card.  The hospital insisted on putting the $250 on my credit card, and I figured it would bounce.  Nope.  I found out then that credit cards are in bed with the medical community.  They don't reject payments from hospitals even if it puts you way over your limit.

A few days later when I told my dad what had happened, he told me what he did in the same situation the year before.  As he was checking out, the woman in the cashier's office told him what his part of the bill was and that he had to pay or he could not leave.  He didn't say a word, just grabbed his overnight bag and started heading down the hall.  She yelled, "Where are you going?"  He didn't answer, just kept going.  He got back to his room before they had cleaned it up, so he put his stuff down and started taking his clothes off to get back into bed.

People from the administrator's office and billing office came running in, asking him what he was doing.  He pointed to the cashier, and said, "She said that she would not let me leave if I could not pay the bill.  I can't, so I guess I'm staying."

OF course they let him leave, and he told them how he would pay off the balance.

I've remembered that ever since, and I have not let the medical community intimidate me.  While I'm not married to the man whose daughter was an attorney anymore, I know how to find legal assistance if I need to.  And I would not hesitate to counter-sue any medical facility that tries to sue me for anything.

Good.  People NEED to understand that other people and entitys only have the power you allow them to have, for the most part.  A medical institution can't MAKE you stay.  You can leave AMA (Against Medical Advice) and they can't hold you hostage because of a bill either.  They can't make you pay for treatment you did not recieve, and you are allowed to file a counter suit.  ALL GOOD INFO.

However, that doesn't mean that we don't need to have healthcaere for EVERYBODY.  They also don't HAVE to treat you.  They don't HAVE to let you stay.  They don't HAVE to do anyythin but triage you in the ER.  They don't HAVE to allow you to make payments, or take what you say you can afford.

No one can deny that Marilyn M is passionate and never gives up.

Marilyn,  after going though what you went through and it was mild compared to most cases, how can you be against helping others? Is it fear of higher taxes for you? I do not think that you necessarily have a cold heart, but it is rather tepid.

Nope.  It's cold.  And smug.  And self-righteous.  And sanctimonious.  And... well, it is what it is.

It's a classic case of Marie Antoinette Syndrome "I have mine, everybody else go eat shit"

No, I'm not cold.  I understand people who were born with problems.  My hubby is one - born with CP.  I have a cousin who was born with spina-bifida and should not have lived and probably wouldn't have if her father had not been in the Navy.

But, Leo, as it has been pointed out to me, my case is my case.  And so it is with everyone.

As I pointed out before, in the old days, insurance was not designed to take care of going to the doctor or getting prescriptions.  It was meant for hospital care and serious care.  People understood that they were responsible for trips to the doctor and buying medications, and those costs were considered when people determined whether or not they were ready to bring kids into the world and raise a family.

That's how I was raised, and it never once crossed my mind that the government owed me anything.  I knew that if I wanted to have a kid, I needed to be able to get him to the doctor.  And that's exactly why I had only one child.  I knew I was not going to be in the financial state to care for more than one child, since his father was already in his late 50s when our one child was born, and I was in my early 30s.

It's sad to me that others are not brought up that way.  I think that when people educating kids in school about disease and pregancy and abortion, they need to start bringing up the cost of having a kid...and make sure that includes what it costs to see a doctor.

<i>"I think that when people educating kids in school about disease and pregancy and abortion, they need to start bringing up the cost of having a kid"</i>

...a point on which I can heartily agree with you. This was not done in Health class at my school, but my Sociology teacher did it. She had us pair up, then "plan" and "budget" a wedding & how we were going to pay for it, followed by a pregnancy and birth, and how we were going to pay for that.  I think that should have been a Health Class project, because only about 60 out of approximately 170 kids in my class took Sociology. We really didn't need sex ed again my freshman year... we'd had it in the 4th grade, the 5th grade, the 6th grade, and the 7th grade, as per state requirements. By the time we were all 14, I think we all knew everything from the next year's Sex Ed curriculum.

<i>"I understand people who were born with problems."</i>
Everyone does... I don't believe that their is a person in all of the entire United States that doesn't have at least one person with a disability somewhere within their family who is at least as close as a cousin. So many people with disabilities desperately need medical care but can't do lucrative jobs with great benefits. We aren't disabled enough to need a Social Security disability check, but can't function well enough to hold jobs if our medical conditions are allowed to go untreated. Without access to medical care, the disability system becomes the only option. I know people now who could be working and paying taxes if they could do so without losing their government disability insurance which pays for treatment they couldn't afford on the type of income they could earn while working. Without treatment, their health would rapidly deteriorate to the point where work would not be an option.
Under a good universal health care system, these folks wouldn't cost any more than they all ready are, but would be able to contribute where now they cannot.

dang, I keep forgetting I don't need html... the quotes were supposed to be in italics to separate them from my words. O.o

I've finally decided to fight for my disability.   I can't work at ANY job that requires standing for long periods of time, so no fast food, no retail, no anything like that.   With the medical emergencies that keep popping up, even if I had a desk job, I wouldn't be able to keep it.  I could hold a part time, or temp job, but they don't have bennies.  So, without my husband, at the moment I'm SCREWED.

I don't have ANY medical,  dental or eyecare.   I have five teeth need fixed  I have no teeth in the left back on top or bottom to chew with and only ONE on the right on the bottom.     I cannot afford partial plates.    I have NOT been to a doctor for five years,   I have been to a Naturopath about 3 years ago but cannot afford them either.    Our nation lets insurance companies deny insurance payment to them.    He helped 99.9% better in the one year I went to him until could not afford to go anymore than all the quacko MD's did in 22 years.     I eat healthy, and natural.   I have not been to a burger joint or fast food place in 5 years and I don't drink nasty soda pop now for seven  Oh I have maybe ONE in the summer but basically don't drink them anymore.     I  have fibromyalgia and use heat and exercise and otc pain when it gets real bad and try and rest if able.     I have hypothyroidsm and was payin $30 per month for the damned meds that were costing me a dollar a pill until the Naturopath I went to explained that medical doctors deliberately do not treat the entire symptoms for thyroid and that I needed pituatary and adrenaline as well.   Also that  I could buy these otc at most health food stores and pay about $12 per bottle for a 60 to 90 day supply.  So I do that now and it has really helped a lot.    I want to go to a naturopath not some MD and want the right to choose to do so.     I have other health problems too.  I put off getting very needed eye glasses for 18 months until I had enough to pay cash for the exam and the glasses and finally got them.  I do go to college students in our area for dental care for some things.     But I have no caterostrphic medical for accident or serious illness and could not afford it or pay for it.    The last surgery I had was a hysterectomy it was necessary I was literally bleeding to death with tumors rupturing.   I told them I could NOT pay them more than $25 a month.    The hospital PROMSIED to help with programs to help me afford to pay what liars they were.   My then insurance paid 1/4 the cost and almost did not pay that.   We had to fight them.   Then the hospital wanted, demanded $400 per month and refused less,  the doctor's office wanted another $125 per month.   There were a couple other things NOT one of them would accept less than the demand.    For the first time we had to declare bankruptcy and I lost my insurance as well.      I can't get SSI or SSD  my husband has SSD medicare and has varicose veins and some other problems he gets a run around and no referrals and most doctors won't take medicare now.     The medical doctors,  the insurance companies and the pharmecudical companies do NOT want socialized medicine and have lobbyed against it for decades.      I sure the HELL am not taking any prescription pharmacudical meds.   They will kill you more than help you, they are poison.    I use herbs and natural as much as possible.   Thanks be to God and my dad and grandma for teaching me woodlore and herbs of the field and garden to use.    Recently I had a  gallstone.   Did I go to the doctor or hospital NO I did call my naturopath and he said some things to get naturally and guess what.   It is spring, my husband got dandilion root and milk thistle root and I took olive oil and lemon juice and it was gone in 24 hours.   NO need for surgery or anything else.      But yeah for some things like broken bones or car accident I need something.     We all do.   We need socialized medicine and naturopaths should be allowed to be among those of choice for those of us who want to go to them.    The other factors that don't want us to have this are the very well off and that does include the very large middle class who thinks they are oh sooooo poor.    Blah you try living on $14,799 per year.   You have NO clue about realtiy.   If you can afford your latte or mocha and still shop at Sears or JC Penney or Macy's and belly ache about gas being $2.95 per gallon but can afford a big screen hi def digital t.v and go to exotic vacation places you ain't hurting at all.    Your just bellyaching for the hell of it.    You should cut up the credit cards and save for what you need and tell your brats they DO NOT need a cellphone or an MP3 Player.    That is reality people.   Elizabeth and Chuck are right.    I have 12 grandkids and they don't get expensive toys or other things they get second and third hand or hand made toys.   For birthdays and holidays.    They get lots of love and other things.  Sure they would like ballet lessons and music lessons, can't afford it.   We get second hand CD's to let them watch on the video to learn and teach them what we know ourself.    Some of them need medical but can't afford it.     Just learned one little girl has a hole in her heart she is 10.   She may need surgery they will be monitoring it over the next two years.   Shriners is helping.     It is genetic.   My husband and his dad and his grandmother all had the same thing and so did most his uncles.   All died in their 40's and 50's except my husband because he got the help he needed back when we did have some medical and DR. Timothy Icenogle who did the surgery and learned from it paid the bill for us he wrote the bill off it was a $52,000 bill.     So there are a few good doctors out there if you can get past the attila the hun staff.     And the Marie Antoninette's.

I signed it and passing it on.

You need to see if the kids are eligible for SCHIP or medicaid.

Hope all of you aren't thinking that this health care is going to be free.

You need to talk to folks who have social security only (health). which they DO pay premiums for.  Remember, Massachusetts "fines" those who show up at hospitals "uninsured", it is a law to have some kind of coverage.  What would you do if your premium was say $450/mo with a $5,000 deductible and you got fined if you didn't obey the "law"?

 Be careful what you wish for....

You are all still posting WE NEED THIS WE NEED THIS when in fact you don't even KNOW what it all involves...

I've LIVED IT.

What we have NOW is BETTER than what you are all asking for and you don't even realize is.  Sad thing is you will have to lose someone you LOVE to "the system" before you open your eyes.

Do you know how a Single Payer system works?  Do you think that our police, libraries and fire departments work well?  Because they are all a type of "single payer". 

I see no way that a single payer insurance program under the government will be cheap.  Given the record of all current government medical/social insurance programs, this will far more expensive than whatever number is trotted out.  Can anyone quote a government program of ANY sort that has routinely come under budget that actually involves any size?

No, and after the private plans are gone which will be rather quick as hospitals grind them up to pay for government shortfalls, then the real cost will show and it will be too late.

I've said it before, this plan (whatever it wil end up being called) will look good, and likely serve those of us in our later years adequetely but our kids/grandkids will pay the price and their care will be far less wide spread.  I'd like to know also how many people currently being doctors/nurses/what have you understand their financial postions will be very changed once the government is the only party out there.  Will we end up like England with medical people flooding elsewhere or retiring so that they have to import foreign personnel? I guess time will tell.

Elizabeth, comparing police/fire/libraries to a vast national health care system is a bit of a stretch.  Most of those mentioned tend to be small and subject to local control which this most assuredly will not.  With local control at least, people can change things (tax rates or means to finance/hours or areas worked etc), a national system will be irreversable and under Washington's control.  Very little chance of change then.

Go to WWW.PNHP.ORG Physicians for a National Healthcare Plan,  go to http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html and watch the Bill Moyers Journal about healthcare, find out how the private insurers make sure that they get the lowest cost, healthiest people, and leave the rest to the GOVERNMENT,  go to WWW.SICKOCURE.ORG and get the infromation.   Learn how a Single Payer healthcare system REALLY works, you might be surprised.

16k worth of medical professionals and students out of over 4 million?  Admittedly this is a Goggle estimate but 16k is a tiny percentage though they may agree with you, its not by any means a correct pulse of the medical community.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=445237

The government has never tried to take over such a huge segment of the economy before.  Given their at best mediocore success in most of what they do, this looks to be more wishful thinking than what will likely happen.

If you don't like OUR solution to the healthcare crisis, then what's YOURS?

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Wow!  A very thought-provoking and controversial subject.  I have insurance but it costs my husband and me $1600 a month with a $3000 deductible each.  I don't want socialized medicine but I do think our healthcare system needs significant changes.

All I'm saying is research the issue.  Don't just believe what talking heads tell you.  Look at the sites I've given, check out the PBS show, and contact your reps that you want SOME kind of change!

Right now, ANY change is a good start.

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