I am tired of Right Wing Fanatics. They believe what they want fine, let them, but when they start to try to push their misguided thoughts onto me and keep poking at me like the little devils they are I get pissed!
Here is an accurate description of each of the Founding Father's of these United States creedos and beliefs, in a nutshell.
The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians
by Steven Morris, in Free Inquiry, Fall, 1995
"The Christian right is trying to rewrite the history of the United States as part of its campaign to force its religion on others. They try to depict the founding fathers as pious Christians who wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, with laws that favored Christians and Christianity.
This is patently untrue. The early presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the absurdities of the Old and New testaments."
Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)
John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.
Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.
James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.
Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)
Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.
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The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.
The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.


Comments: 66
In the Bill of Rights, we are all guaranteed the freedom to choose and practice any religion freely. I respect all faiths and the right of people to choose not to believe. If we can honor one another's differences while seeking common ground, we'll be a lot happier.
As for politics, the most recent presidential election was the most polarized, divisive campaign I have ever experienced. Friendships were lost over candidate support. I have my own opinions about candidates and issues, but will never allow those things to cost me a friend.
Regardless of the issue under discussion, an argument can only continue as long as both sides pull on the rope. If one disengages, the argument is over. Why not let go of the rope, help the other person up and find out what you have in common?
Be at peace, Georgee.
Thanks for posting to Fugitives from Ignorance, Conformity, and Peer Pressure
"Documented facts here John"
I have never in my life heard anyone claim that all the Founding Fathers were Christian, so I have no idea why it ought to surprise anyone that they were not all Christian. But there is no doubt of any reasonable kind, that the vast majority were, as one would naturally expect, since they were representatives of overwhelmingly Christian populations.
And that, as Bryan indicates, is not even important anyway. The Constitution's "separation of church and State" was accepted by those overwhelmingly Christian populations, and for good reason. That is how Christ told us things should be, and that his followers ought NOT insist that anyone at all believe based on force of any kind (which of course is not even possible) We are to respect ALL persons beliefs and free will, and surely God is not interested in some phony indoctrinated lip service. He wants only willing "believers" to worship Him. not slaves or fools. of course.
"Bush went completely against the constitution in everything he did!"
An absurd statement, but I agree that he butchered it rather badly, in some critical ways I'd LOVE to see undone, but fear will not be, by the current occupant of the now "royal" Presidency. He could do that, you know, but hasn't . . . same old same old, it seems.
The phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear anywhere in the Constitution.
The government and constitutional laws are Christian in nature, which is to say based on peaceful, law-abiding behavior. This does not mean that the USA is a Christian nation even though the majority of citizens are Christians. Freedom of religion means exactly what it says: Freedom to choose in matters of faith. With that freedom comes the responsibility to honor others' choices.
Not all conservatives are Christians and not all Christians are conservative. There are democrats and republicans of every faith. The county in which I live is predominantly democrat and almost entirely Christian. Hunting is popular in this area and gun ownership is common. That almost sounds republican, doesn't it? Makes it tough to categorize these folks.
I don't know one single person who is afraid of a black man as president. That kind of prejudice is history, although there may still be some remnants. Those who have doubts about the current president generally take exception to his policies, methods and values, not his skin color. Again, it is personal opinion.
Generalizing, categorizing, labelling and ridiculing people for their faith or political beliefs sounds like hate crimes.
It's really important to try not to allow ourselves to be divided. A unified country is a strong country. Whether or not we agree on issues or faiths, we are all Americans who love our country.
Are you SERIOUS?!? Have you listened to the likes of Hannity and Limbaugh lately? Good Grief!
As for the "Christian Nation" hue and cry... it's out there, it's constant, and it's likely to take us back to the age of teh "Know Nothings" if we're not loudly in opposition.
FFS! That is so insulting to non-christian, peaceful, law-abiding people and cultures I hardly know where to begin, and doubt you're worth the trouble.
But they DEFINITELY set things up so that religion and politics were separated.
Reading the comments, I started wondering what percentage of Christians are true Christians and what percentage are the bigots and hate mongers who give all Christians a bad name to many.
From my own experience, I say that if one is looking for hatred and bigotry, start with the churches. Also, it puzzles me that "Christians" are such expert haters.
It's also funny about the Funders. Some of them were what we would call "Deists"- they were very much aware of the Enlightenment discussion of God as a "clockmaker"- a being who wound up the world and let it run without constant interference. Jefferson actually went so far as to rewrite the New Testament, snipping out the pieces that he disliked. Wow, Evangelicals do not want to hear that.
In a Big Picture sense, "The Founders" are often used by people with political agendas to justify their beliefs. The problem with that is that the founders were NOT monolithic. They argued with each other quite a bit, and with great passion. In fact, some of them had feuds going on. Washington and Jefferson were not on speaking terms at the time of Washington's death because of Jefferson's hatred of Federalism. Alexander Hamilton made many enemies with his efforts to advance central banking and the payment of public debt, which was perceived as a great burden on frontier farmers and the poor. He died in a duel with one of those enemies. Political partisanship, we think we invented it, but not so.
Christians are therefore welcome to practice their religion. They are simply not entitled to put guilt on others for choosing a different road.
That is so limited in perspective. Every major religion and many minor ones project a moral code as part of the belief system. Christianity is not unique.
Christian peace:
torture
unwarranted wars
wiretapping
uncontrolled hate speech
Guess what folks, actions do speak louder than words.
Jan, You do know that Gather is a forum for writers and other artists, and promotes discussion ofa ll sorts, with all views? It is not a site for telling us what you are eating for dinner or where you can get free chicken or razors! It is OK, there is plenty of room for that, but the dissention is what gets things conveyed, debates always get heated, doesn't mean it is a bad thing. Prim and proper doesn't work in this world anymore. Some dangerous notions have been defused by enough healthy discussion before it can turn into ugly acts.
Spartan brings the 'hate' post to light. Kimberly L. was inciting an ugly mob to "get rid of Obama" I do not think she meant by elections or sanctions on his governance either!
torture
unwarranted wars
wiretapping
uncontrolled hate speech
That's not fair, Joyce. You are doing the same thing the left complains of the right, that is politicizing religion.
Well said, Chris.
Cathi, it is the reason I am so up in arms about the Right Wing Christians, jsut that name alone says it all. Right Wing, political, so it is OK for the Christian Right ro rail against Obama and the democrats, which should have nothing to do with their business of religion.
No better than the TAliban, keeping people back.
There were Theists and Atheists, and Diests and all sorts, just like Methodist, Protestant, Prespyterian, babtist, all sorts!
Give the christian haters in Christianity hell.
What's not fair about it? Look on TV, the internet, CHURCH, talk to Christian aquaintances
- You hear the same things; violence, hatred and the quest for control/domination over other peoples lives. If you are in the middle of it, you are used to it; so you don't hear it. Those of us that take ourselves away from it can feel the negativity every time.
So, will you be the one to show me something else that really bis realistically fair?
Nay, not me. I'll be the one that says you are lumping all Christians into the same kettle. At least Georgiana specifies right-wing fundamentalists.
heAme
I love you all and I respect the rights of everyone to express his/her opinon. I wish that could be mutual. Peace to all.
"read Thomas Paine if you really want to know what the founding fathers intended."
agreed 100%
I am a devout believer, but I am not religious..per se. Religion is a manmade construct, and quite often has little to do with the Bible and its teachings.
I cannot stand having any belief system shoved in my face, either, and since I react on such a gut level to it I think that it's a natural thing for humans to dislike.
We must all find our own path, in our own time, and in our own way.
but didn't some of the Patriots have a falling-out with Thomas Paine eventually? As in, after the revolution succeeded he kept talking about how great revolutions are, and they started to feel like he was maybe a bit too radical? I can't quote sources on this, but I have the impression that he sided with Jefferson on the French Revolution being great, and many of the Federalists just were not comfortable with Guillotining hundreds of aristocrats.
They have got some twisted dumb ideas about what it means to be Christian.
They are brainwashed by the Elmer Gantry's of this world. (If you don't remember the Burt Lancaster film, you wshould rent it!) they have always been a joke. That film was about 50 years ago now, so why has there been such a resurgence in Born Again philosophies? Because some corrupt hucksters are getting their money from the ignorant who attend tent meetings and try to beat the devil!
Thomas Paine was a war monger like Bush, Cheyney and McCain! Bob Dylan talks about him a lot in his early songs.
They all believed in God, Georgiana. And they carefully protected the rights of those who are religious to practice their faith.
Bill, yes, heated debates get heated sometimes, mainly through mis-reading and mis-understanding, the same way some Christian's don't 'get it' about religion too!
"Revisionist" history published in 1898.
Amazing how those who claim America was not founded on Christian principles claim those who say it was are revisionists.
http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1754
The reason this country got started was to escape the all-powerful church that was making life a hell on Earth in Europe. More evil has been hidden behind so-called "Christianity" than I care to think about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBoqKF52FU8&feature=player_embedded
Check this out!
I, though christened and confirmed in the Anglican cChurch of England and Episcolian here, have embraced a more natural course. Hate congregating and would be considered someohat spiritual, encompassing many theologies. Take what I need and leave the rest. But I favour the Eastern religions. Buddism and Hindi god are so damn pretty!