Montana Governor Signs New Gun Law
May 05, 2009 06:46 PM EDT
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Who says the state of Montana don't have guts? Sure it only applys to guns made in the state but it is the things said within the legislation that are important.
Montana Governor Signs New Gun Law Executive Summary - The USA state of Montana has signed into power a revolutionary gun law. I mean REVOLUTIONARY. The State of Montana has defied the federal government and their gun laws. This will prompt a showdown between the federal government and the State of Montana . The federal government fears citizens owning guns. They try to curtail what types of guns they can own. The gun control laws all have one common goal - confiscation of privately owned firearms.
Montana has gone beyond drawing a line in the sand. They have challenged the Federal Government. The fed now either takes them on and risks them saying the federal agents have no right to violate their state gun laws and arrest the federal agents that try to enforce the federal firearms acts. This will be a world-class event to watch. Montana could go to voting for secession from the union, which is really throwing the gauntlet in Obama's face. If the federal government does nothing they lose face. Gotta love it.
Important Points - If guns and ammunition are manufactured inside the State of Montana for sale and use inside that state then the federal firearms laws have no applicability since the federal government only has the power to control commerce across state lines. Montana has the law on their side. Since when did the USA start following their own laws especially the constitution of the USA , the very document that empowers the USA .
Silencers made in Montana and sol in Montana would be fully legal and not registered. As a note silencers were first used before the 007 movies as a device to enable one to hunt without disturbing neighbors and scaring game. They were also useful as devices to control noise when practicing so as to not disturb the neighbors.
Silencers work best with a bolt-action rifle. There is a long barrel and the chamber is closed tight so as to direct all the gases though the silencer at the tip of the barrel. Semi-auto pistols and revolvers do not really muffle the sound very well except on the silver screen. The revolvers bleed gas out with the sound all over the place. The semi-auto pistols bleed the gases out when the slide recoils back.
Silencers are maybe nice for snipers picking off enemy soldiers even though they reduce velocity but not very practical for hit men shooting pistols in crowded places. Silencers were useful tools for gun enthusiasts and hunters.
There would be no firearm registration, serial numbers, criminal records check, waiting periods or paperwork required. So in a short period of time there would be millions and millions of unregistered untraceable guns in Montana . Way to go Montana !
Discussion - Let us see what Obama does. If he hits Montana hard they will probably vote to secede from the USA . The governor of Texas has already been refusing Federal money because he does not want to agree to the conditions that go with it and he has been saying secession is a right they have as sort of a threat.. Things are no longer the same with the USA . Do not be deceived by Obama acting as if all is the same, it is not. Text of the New Law HOUSE BILL NO. 246
INTRODUCED BY J. BONIEK, BENNETT, BUTCHER, CURTISS, RANDALL, WARBURTON
AN ACT EXEMPTING FROM FEDERAL REGULATION UNDER THE COMMERCE CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES A FIREARM, A FIREARM ACCESSORY, OR AMMUNITION MANUFACTURED AND RETAINED IN MONTANA ; AND PROVIDING AN APPLICABILITY DATE.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MONTANA :
Section 1. Short title. [Sections 1 through 6] may be cited as the "Montana Firearms Freedom Act".
Section 2. Legislative declarations of authority. The legislature declares that the authority for [sections 1 through 6] is the following:
(1) The 10th amendment to the United States constitution guarantees to the states and their people all powers not granted to the federal government elsewhere in the constitution and reserves to the state and people of Montana certain powers as they were understood at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889. The guaranty of those powers is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
(2) The ninth amendment to the United States constitution guarantees to the people rights not granted in the constitution and reserves to the people of Montana certain rights, as they were understood at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889. The guaranty of those rights is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
(3) The regulation of intrastate commerce is vested in the states under the 9th and 10th amendments to the United States constitution, particularly if not expressly preempted by federal law. Congress has not expressly preempted state regulation of intrastate commerce pertaining to the manufacture on an intrastate basis of firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition.
(4) The second amendment to the United States constitution reserves to the people the right to keep and bear arms as that right was understood at the time that Montana was admitted to statehood in 1889, and the guaranty of the right is a matter of contract between the state and people of Montana and the United States as of the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
(5) Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution clearly secures to Montana citizens, and prohibits government interference with, the right of individual Montana citizens to keep and bear arms. This constitutional protection is unchanged from the 1889 Montana constitution, which was approved by congress and the people of Montana , and the right exists, as it was understood at the time that the compact with the United States was agreed upon and adopted by Montana and the United States in 1889.
Section 3. Definitions. As used in [sections 1 through 6], the following definitions apply:
(1) "Borders of Montana " means the boundaries of Montana described in Article I, section 1, of the 1889 Montana constitution.
(2) "Firearms accessories" means items that are used in conjunction with or mounted upon a firearm but are not essential to the basic function of a firearm, including but not limited to telescopic or laser sights, magazines, flash or sound suppressors, folding or aftermarket stocks and grips, speedloaders, ammunition carriers, and lights for target illumination.
(3) "Generic and insignificant parts" includes but is not limited to springs, screws, nuts, and pins.
(4) "Manufactured" means that a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition has been created from basic materials for functional usefulness, including but not limited to forging, casting, machining, or other processes for working materials.
Section 4. Prohibitions. A personal firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured commercially or privately in Montana and that remains within the borders of Montana is not subject to federal law or federal regulation, including registration, under the authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce. It is declared by the legislature that those items have not traveled in interstate commerce. This section applies to a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition that is manufactured in Montana from basic materials and that can be manufactured without the inclusion of any significant parts imported from another state. Generic and insignificant parts that have other manufacturing or consumer product applications are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition, and their importation into Montana and incorporation into a firearm, a firearm accessory, or ammunition manufactured in Montana does not subject the firearm, firearm accessory, or ammunition to federal regulation. It is declared by the legislature that basic materials, such as unmachined steel and unshaped wood, are not firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition and are not subject to congressional authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition under interstate commerce as if they were actually firearms, firearms accessories, or ammunition. The authority of congress to regulate interstate commerce in basic materials does not include authority to regulate firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition made in Montana from those materials. Firearms accessories that are imported into Montana from another state and that are subject to federal regulation as being in interstate commerce do not subject a firearm to federal regulation under interstate commerce because they are attached to or used in conjunction with a firearm in Montana ...
Section 5. Exceptions. [Section 4] does not apply to:
(1) A firearm that cannot be carried and used by one person;
(2) A firearm that has a bore diameter greater than 1 1/2 inches and that uses smokeless powder, not black powder, as a propellant;
(3) ammunition with a projectile that explodes using an explosion of chemical energy after the projectile leaves the firearm; or
(4) a firearm that discharges two or more projectiles with one activation of the trigger or other firing device.
Section 6. Marketing of firearms. A firearm manufactured or sold in Montana under [sections 1 through 6] must have the words "Made in Montana " clearly stamped on a central metallic part, such as the receiver or frame.
Section 7. Codification instruction. [Sections 1 through 6] are intended to be codified as an integral part of Title 30, and the provisions of Title 30 apply to [sections 1 through 6].
Section 8. Applicability. [This act] applies to firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition that are manufactured, as defined in [section 3], and retained in Montana after October 1, 2009. |
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Comments: 261 ( 1 removed by Col. George W. )
im a california raised guy, i like idaho but im loving montana. they made the second amendment the second amendment for a reason, to protect ourselfs from the government. hell yeahh id like to see them try and take my guns
~M
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2 years old boy must use viagra to survive! Hypertension disease
People in cities don't know their neighbors because they don't trust anyone.
To be honest, most hunting rifles are far more accurate than any automatic weapon. Not to mention there are .50 cal semi-auto weapons on the market.
Here a little factoid for you, less than 0.04% of the firearm owning population commits a crime with a fire arm.
You have more a chance of falling and dying in your bathroom (1 in 47) or getting hit by a car (1 in 10,000) than being killed by a firearm in the hands of a criminal (1 in 10,000,000).
Dorine, smuggling guns from MT to the Eastern Cities. That would be foolish. They can buy all they want right there on the black market.
Ron, gun control laws only tell the government who has a weapon. That way when they want to confiscate guns they know right where to go. Having a .50 would be cost prohibitive for most people and any rich person who wants one can get one now. The religious nuts at Waco had one as a matter of fact.
By the way Ron, as I read the Montana law as posted above, "machine guns" are still illegal there. Section 5, number4.
Have you tried to price a 50 cal? Most people just want one for pride reasons....
it's much more usefull to have an ar-15, ak-47 and an assortment of hunting rifles.
You don't know me from Adam's house cat and I know that I just registered today. I ask your indulgence as I post.
"Important Points - If guns and ammunition are manufactured inside the State of Montana for sale and use inside that state then the federal firearms laws have no applicability since the federal government only has the power to control commerce across state lines."
Might I point out? SCOTUS has already determined that items manufactured inside a State, for use and sale only within said State, qualify for Regulation under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution? Taking the quote above, I hope to show you what I mean.
"Important Points - If Marijuana is manufactured inside the State of California for sale and use inside that state then the federal DRUG laws have no applicability since the federal government only has the power to control commerce across state lines."
The Supremes said otherwise. I hate to be a Cassandra, but I predict this law won't stand the Court's scrutiny.
It is not what the new law says about where a gun is manufactured that is important in this and similar laws it is what the legislation text says. This law re-affirms the 2d, 9th and 10th amenedment. That language is important.
As far as I know the only guns manufactured in Montana are on a small scale and are mussle loading replicas from the old days. i.e. Black Powder weapons. It Remington or Winchester have a plant here I never heard of it.
ZIS have you ever had wild meat? I doubt it by the way you write. Hunting in Montana is a way of life if you can't except that you have no right posting your opinon. Hunting in these western states is as important as life itself. Maybe you should try to pull yourself out of which ever big city your from and visit the outstanding beauty of Montana. My GUNS ARE FOR HUNTING, DO NOT TAKE THAT AWAY!!!!!!
Personally I put my faith in my ability to defend myself with a firearm of my choice, because when I dial 911 it is to tell the cops to drag their lazy ass out to my place along with the medical examiners wagon to drag the carcass out of my home.
You can't sue the cops for not protecting you from a crime, they can't. ONLY YOU CAN PROTECT YOURSELF.
Hell, I live in California and Uncle Arnie just signed a law that if I buy my ammo in the state of California I have to provide all sorts of information that is going to be a identity theives dream come true. So I don't buy my ammo in California, Nevada is just 3 hours away and I buy my ammo outside of the state and they can't stop me from doing it.
The motivation for gun control laws is to prevent gun violence against people. This idea the government is somehow paranoid and wants to disarm the citizenry is idiotic at best.
Like all brain dead Right Wing Nut Bags, you'll never get it til it comes up and shoots you in the ass. And then like Brady, you'll be singing a new tune then.
And this idea that silencers have any legitimate use is bullshit of the worst kind. Silencers are used primarily by hired murderers. So, in effect that is what the governor and those who support such irresponsible legislation are defending.
Fortunately the State of Montana has a supreme court I'm sure will strike this law down. You may not like it but Federal law supercedes State laws and that is a good thing. And if anyone in Montana wants to cecede, I'd like to see them try. Because I'll be the first in line to go and weed out the traitors and send them to hell where they belong.
Devin,
How is speaking cecession treason? America was not formed by those who where willing to be ruled by an unjust and deaf government. The Civil War was a legal cesession and is taught in schools as a war against slavery. WRONG!! The South had little representation in the federal government and Federal Taxation laws on cotton was destroying the southern states economically. Lincoln had no inclinations to free slaves and his wifes family owned slace ran plantations.
If a government runs amock such as our present one is nearing that point it is meant to be toppled. Our forefathers understood this and realized the TRUE significance of the 2nd Amendmant. An unamrned poulace is one to be ruled. Even Franklin was for an armed rebellion every 20 years to keep the government in its proper place. The first thing Hitler, Stalin, Mousilini did was take weapons away from the populace. There may be more Jews alive today from that period if they could have protected themselves. Just ask an Afghani how the Taliban took control.
RIGHT WING NUT BAGS?? You have watched to much Family Guy and John Stewart my friend. Read a book and some REAL news (not from FOX,CNN,MSNBC). They are all controlled. I havent seen this story on the mainstream news. Republicans and Democrats, there rally is no difference when it boils down, both parties all went to the same schools and the majority of government officials have never worked a real hard day in there life. Obama planting a freedom garden doesn't count.
I know folks in Montana who are 5th and 6th generation residents who are also "liberal Democrats" who do not agree. Are you telling them they have to leave.
No, I predict the sitting governor of Montana will be defeated by a landslide in the next election. This is just another death throw of the defunct GOP.
Sir, I should point out that curios and relics (black powder arms) are not regulated by the Federal Gov't. in the same manner as "modern" fire arms. At least not yet.
ZIS Publishing. In your Utopia, who watches the watchers?
Devin. Might I suggest you actually READ the Constitution of the United States before you stick your foot in your mouth, again? If the Montana Constitution doesn't already forbid the activities sanctioned by the above Law, the Montana Supreme Court is unlikely to over turn it. Unlikely rather than "will not" because Judges have been known to create new law out of thin air.
And Sheryl. Dear sweet, silly Sheryl. One only needs to look at the FBI crime statistics to realize that where there are more guns there is less crime. I used to live in Kennesaw, GA. We watched the burglary rates drop to near zero when gun ownership became mandatory in that fair city.
As I understand it, the 9th circuit recently incorporated the 2nd Amendment under the 14th. As other circuits have ruled otherwise, the 9th has set up a situation where SCOTUS might have to make a definitive ruling on the matter. Exciting times, what?
Devin, The govenor of MT is a Democrat so how is this a death throw of the defunct GOP?
I think he will be defeated too but not for this. This would help him. He will be defeated because his support money comes from the city slickers in California. People up here are not all that fond of Californians. In fact there is a saying in Montana "We don't care how they do it in California"
Why not Ron? It isn't like he could hide it under his coat! I know several people who are proud owners of Mr Browning's fine Ma Duce, several more who have the Model 1919 and one old guy with a B.A.R. They are among the finest human being you would ever want to meet.
One of them is a true War Hero. Distinguished Service Cross - Okinawa, 3 Silver Stars, Legion of Merit, 6 purple hearts, Croix de Guerre, Good Conduct Medal among many others. Flying a Douglas A26 he was shot down over the Yalu River (Chinese Border) in February 1951 AND WALKED OUT to friendly lines. Enlisted in June of '40 in the Horse Calvary, retired a Full Bird in 1970. Three War Vet.
Why shouldn't he, and any other law abiding citizen, own any firearm he desires? Because you don't want him to? Not good enough, sir. Not nearly good enough. This man has more honor in his little finger than most of our "elected representatives".
"Speaking cecesion is an act of treason and I believe the governor of Montana should be arrested and thrown on jail."
You might be happier then in a country with a King or maybe just go to England, France, Spain, etc. The King of England labeled the founders of this country as guilty of treason.
Furthermore, I agree with Montana and thank God for their ability to stand up for our rights under the Constitution. What is truly treason, is when our government takes away our freedoms. Anyone who stands against the laws (especially the Constitution) and tells others to do the same should be the only one guilty of a crime.
I am a dem who is pro-Constitution even if I do not always agree with it. If I want, I have the freedom to leave anytime I want. If you do not like it, then leave because no one likes a complainer that does nothing to fix their circumstances that are toublesome for them.
Oh, and I saw nothing what so ever in that legislation that mentioned seperating MT from the union.
Texas has some 10th amendment legislation pending. The govenor has said he will sign it when it passes.
JMO but I think the Republicans have noticed the Freedom Movement and the 10th amendment movement and are moving in that direction rapidly.
I don't like commercials but you can preview the books at secondwindpublishing.com and clicking on my name in the list of Authors.
What a bunch of B.S. I haven't been a hunter for over 50 years as have been my entire family. I've have never seen a long gun with a silencer nor have I heard anyone talk about wanting one or even thinking it's a good idea. Quite frankly I like knowing when someone is shooting around me for my own safety. In Montana you don't have to worry about disturbing your neighbors, you don't have any! You talked about having millions of firearms in Montana, now that's bound to disturb some people when folks go a shooting.
Just when I thought I knew about most of the whack jobs out there another one pops out of the wood work.
p.s. try using spell and grammar check if you want your message, no matter how goofy, to carry more weight.
Also I am 100% disabled Vietnam combat veteran and I think your talk about secession borders on treason. I oppose anybody that would choose to break up my country just so they can play with their guns.
As too secession (hell no, we ain't fergittin'! LOL). I sent a hundred bucks to some Native Hawaiian secession group some years back, hoping against hope they would be successful! Am I a traitor? LMAO!
I would be glad to do that very thing but as far as I know there is no spell and grammar check on this site.
Also I am 100% disabled Vietnam combat veteran and I think your talk about secession borders on treason. I oppose anybody that would choose to break up my country just so they can play with their guns.
I am wondering when or where in this article is a word about secession? That subject was brought up by Devin. No Robert the idea of or expression of secession is not and never has been treason. Every state has that right as granted by the founding documents.
"I oppose anybody that would choose to break up my country just so they can play with their guns. " If this country decides to conficate guns or stop gun ownership entirely you will see a revolution because it will no longer BE the country we all served to preserve.
Sadly the point of SCOTUS extending the power of the Commerce Clause dates back to the FDR power grab in the 1930s. It hasn't been overturned BUT no state has tried anything to in line with the 10th Amendment to defy the Feds either.
My predication is that there will be no overt Fed test of the law. Montana has little political power in DC and short of armed conflict, that will suffice to likely isolate this experiment. Now if violence ensues with Fed agents trying to enforce this law happens, all bets are off
Charles, I suggest you review GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL, et al. v. RAICH et al. SCOTUS
certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the ninth circuit
No. 03-1454.Argued November 29, 2004--Decided June 6, 2005
The liberal Justices were joined by Kennedy and Scalia wrote a concurring opinion.
Exactly my point, Jeff. MT sounds very, very unfriendly. And actually rather violent.
Oh, and I would not want to be a sheep. And I don't think that's actually possible.
I read recently about a man who legally carried a concealed handgun intervened in an armed robbery of a convinience store he happened to be in at the time. The resulting gun battle cost him his life and the robber was critically wounded. Authorities say the man should not have intervened. Not only did he end up losing his own life, but he had needlessly endangered the lives of all the innocent bystanders. Not to mention leaving his own wife and kids without their husband and father.
I believe in the right of Americans to own guns. But this idea that absolutely NO laws controlling how they are sold or restricting those guns that are specifically designed for dispatching people should be adopted is just stupid.
I live in the Northwest. A place where hunting is as much a part of our culture as anything. I used to hunt and fish and even killed a deer once. But the almost yearly killing or shooting of a human being by some over zealous grren horn has kept me out of the woods during hunting season for a good many years.
But in all my travels and the countless hunters I've known or met. Not a single one ever discussed or gave any mention of using silencers when hunting. In fact, it violates the rules of sportsmanship. The whole idea for sports hunters is to give the prey a fair chance. Especially considering we use guns for crying out loud.
And I could care less if the governor of Montana was a Whig. Anyone who speaks cecession is a traitor to the United States of America and should be thrown in prison.
Montana is a refuge for hunters in that nearly everyone hunts and gets their game. They have shotguns for birds, rifels for deer or elk and larger rifles for bear or moose. They have small calaber for varmets and most carry a pistol of sufficent calaber in case they are put in a situation where it is needed. i.e. rattle snakes, rabid skunks, and yes people if necessary (not everyone is honest or trustworthy)
It is the city novices that get out in the woods and cause problems, not the country folk.
Devin, you say silencers violate the rules of sportsmanship. Therein lies the defect. People in Montana are MEAT hunters. Sportsmanship has nothing to do with it and a silencer could and is sometimes used because the little sound made can get another piece of meat for the table. We have no use for "Sportsmen" in this state. If someone gets hurt by gunshot out in the woods nine times out of ten it is a Sport hunter that did it.
Now " Anyone who speaks cecession is a traitor" You are going to have to throw at least 15 goveners in jail and several senitors as well as sever representives of the various states. Every state became one by vote of the people and every state has the right to withdraw in the same manner. We the people have a right to disagree with the goverrnment and we the people are doing a lot of disagreeing with government as is since they have shreded our national Constitution and our State Constitutions with idiotic legislation such as gun control.
Cars kill a hell of a lot more people than guns so why don't you lobbby to outlaw cars. People get killed falling down stairs so lets outlaw stairs.
Amendment II of the United States Constitution reads as follows:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Now, read again the last phrase of the amendment. Let it sink in for a few seconds. What part of "shall not be infringed" do some people not understand?! The right to keep and bear arms without infringement is the amendment that secures all other amendments to the Constitution, and the Constitution as a whole. With out it, the government has no fear of the people's sovereignty as free individuals, and tyranny subsequently flourishes. Historical examples include the many incidences of genocide that have tragically transpired across the world only AFTER the government demanded registration of all privately owned firearms. The next step has always been firearms confiscation, and people were left defenseless. If you question this, just learn the history of what happened under the rule of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler (among others). In light of this, the 2nd amendment plays a vital and integral role in securing our natural rights, and functions as an indispensable balance to the heavy weight of the governments hand.
I might just move to Montana because of this! Not because I desire to own one of these newly "legalized" machines, but because Montana may now take the cake for the freest State in the Union!
Let freedom ring, and God bless these united States of America!
discussion - Let us see what Obama does. If he hits Montana hard they will probably vote to secede from the USA . The governor of Texas has already been refusing Federal money because he does not want to agree to the conditions that go with it and he has been saying secession is a right they have as sort of a threat.. Things are no longer the same with the USA .
Write your articles using a word processor, spell and grammar check then copy and paste to wherever.
Colonel, I for one haven't seen a single move to confiscate any weapons in this country. My father was a Sheriff for 30 years and I had no problem with banning cop killer bullets. I also have no problem with regulation of assault weapons and other weapons that are designed only to kill people. I don't mind getting a drivers license, fishing license or hunting license. I think that registering handguns protects me as well as protecting others. being able to trace weapons is critical to effective law enforcement.
There have been over 1 million guns sold legally (based on public insta-check records) just since 1998. it is estimated that there were about 200 million guns owned by Americans already. Believe me Colonel, if our government decided to confiscate that many firearms from that many people they won't be doing it in secret. They would have to declare marshal law and employ our entire military to go from state to state, house to house to pull that off. It would be a logistical nightmare. If we get to the point where our fine young patriots in uniform agreed to go along with that, we would have much bigger problems to worry about.
If your contention is that we will need our firearms to do battle with our own military I don't want to be here anyway. I thinks it's a bunch of paranoid crap perpetrated on otherwise smart and patriotic people by the firearms industry.
I love this country, fought for it in two wars and would do so again for a just cause. I have faith in our constitution and the American people. Our system as worked just fine for over 200 years and I personally believe it will continue to do so. I prefer not to live in a self created state of fear. If something changes drastically, I might have to rethink my position.
Thank you for your service and may God bless you and your family and keep you healthy and safe.
Robert K. Vukovic'
LCDR, USNR
Montana isn't dangerous as long as you stay off of all fours. Sounds like you are more interested in running around on your hands and knees! Stay home!! We don't need you here. Same goes for you, Devin. Stay home! Don't even come to visit!
I forgot to mention in my previous post that silencers have little effect on large caliber hunting rifles. The gas explosion creates some noise as it exits the barrel, but the bullet breaking the sound barrier cause the lion's share of the noise. Also, the silencer is pretty much a one trick pony. It's muffling effect is greatly diminished after it is used the first time. It is much more feasible to use in smaller rifles like the .22 LR.
LIBERTY is a well armed sheep contesting the outcome of the vote...
Chuck
Col - although not an advocate of hunting myself, I have family members who hunt. Mostly bow and arrow. But, I am not against guns used for hunting purposes. I think where your argument breaks down is the whole "I gotta have an automatic weapon in my home to defend myself and my family" argument. And the insistence of the gun lobby not to have any kind of reasonable laws over the purchase, possession and sale of those kinds of weapons.
I've lived in cities, both my kids live in very large cities. They have never felt the least bit of inclination to own or carry a gun. I have never owned or carried a gun. I honestly think that we would be a lot better off in this country if guns were only bought and used for hunting, if at all. People in other civilized countries do not feel this crazy need to own and use guns - be they hand guns, machine guns, with or without silencers, etc. This 'wild west' atmosphere with its emphasis on 'defending one's home and family' should have died out of our culture a long time ago.
As for the second amendment, there are many, many legal scholars who disagree on the right for an individual citizen to simply own a gun. They believe, and I believe, that it was meant for use in militias. And we have not had militias in this country for a very long time. We now have other means of defending ourselves with organized military and police organizations. Show me a town in the United STates that has a regular standing militia, please.
I'm sorry - owning a gun that is not used for hunting only is inviting violence into your life. Where do you think criminals get most of their guns? They steal them from people like you - from your home, from your car, etc. Let's just hope that this insane attitude around guns dies out with future generations. That we as a country finally mature enough to stop thinking that we're riding the lawless range, hopin' that the sheriff's posse will show up to help us out in the gun fight with the bad guys.
discussion - Let us see what Obama does. If he hits Montana hard they will probably vote to secede from the USA . The governor of Texas has already been refusing Federal money because he does not want to agree to the conditions that go with it and he has been saying secession is a right they have as sort of a threat.. Things are no longer the same with the USA .
Sorry I did not write that and neither did anyone else as far as I can tell, (not on this thread) It says some good things and I wish I had written it. I went through all the posts and saw nothing similar to that. Strange.
Arlie, The best silencer I have found is a plastic pop or water bottle.
So then all those Democrats who spoke out against Bush and wanted to secede are all traitors? Great! Lets round them up and execute them with our Montanna Guns!!
Sheryl O: Your comments seem more sheep innocence than Devin's idealistic anger. You've already said that you live ina gang-crime area. Please realize that the government and the police CANT protect you. Their response time is just adequate to come find your warm corpse. Learn to defend yourself, and carry a weapon to do so with.
You'd give up your friends, livelyhood and family home because the barbarians are at the gate? That's not patriotic. Thats a gypsie.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Ben Franklin
And while there may be some paranoia out there right now, some of it is justified. If they take your ammo, you cant hunt. It is already hapening. Regarding the gun industry, I wont deny that some could profit from this, but don't make the mistake of thinking that the firearms industry sees this as a boon. Manufacturers and retailers alike would face changes that can mean serious revenue impact or bankruptsy.
ROBERT: " I had no problem with banning cop killer bullets. I also have no problem with regulation of assault weapons and other weapons that are designed only to kill people. I don't mind getting a drivers license, fishing license or hunting license. I think that registering handguns protects me as well as protecting others. being able to trace weapons is critical to effective law enforcement."
Agreed. However, you have to realize that ALL guns are made to kill people (and animals) and you really need to defign "assault" weapons. The liberal left hasn't done a very good job of that. They canvas Semi-Auto carbine rifles as Assult weapons just because they have a pic rail and a grip. "Assault" weapons already have a more accurate name - Full Auto. Dont ban my carbine!
ROBERT: "If something changes drastically, I might have to rethink my position."
Things are changing drastically. Better start rethinking.
Ron, if you don't want your neighbor to have guns, go start a gun-free covenanted community and go live there. Just don't expect those willing to defend themselves to stick our necks out for ya. ;)
Ann - I don't think you read my comment thoroughly. I have lived in a city, and my kids live in large cities. They do not live in "gang-crime areas". They live in sections of large cities near businesses and hospitals and universities. They use common sense and do not walk the streets at night in dark, potentially dangerous areas where there are lots of bars and people hanging out on the sidewalks looking for trouble.
This is something I just don't understand. I have lived right outside a large city for many years. We lock our home, we use common sense. When we visit cities, we use common sense to protect ourselves. I will never need a gun, simply because I use common sense and protect myself with preventative measures. I do not live in fear, I do not avoid people or crowded or urban areas. I use common sense. And I have never encountered any kind of violence because of it. I have, however, met many, many very nice people in Boston, NY, San Francisco, Chicago and Atlanta.
Sometimes I think you guys living out there in the sticks just get consumed with this unreasonable paranoia about things and dream up these ridiculous scenarios. Maybe you should move to a city and actually live among other civilized people someday. And realize that for the most part, people are extremely nice to each other most of the time, and most of the rest of the time leave each other alone. Geesh! Stop watching the 24-hour fear channels and relax! Enjoy life a little. Get to know people of all races and types. I swear, you guys out in the hinter lands - your lives must suck being consumed with all this unbridled fear about what other people in the world could potentially do to you and your families.
The problem with cities is that they stink and are crowded
I do like you, Col. Anybody who can put a smile on my face at this point in the work day I owe a debt of gratitude. :-) And I respect your right to your opinions. I just wish people were not so rabid about gun ownership.
I think you would find cities a very different place now. Many young people are choosing to live in cities - they are being revitalized. People want to go back to having transportation services, work and cultural events right at hand. They are rejecting the 50's and 60's move to the suburbs. And they are making cities much more friendly and community-oriented than ever before. I think you would be pleasantly surprised. Both my kids want to continue to live in cities for many years because of all this. They love being able to travel on subways and buses, saving fuel and not contributing to pollution. They love having cultural, sporting and educational happenings right around the corner. They know their neighbors - and the neighbors in the near-by buildings.
The problem with cities is that they stink and are crowded "
Again, I know what you are talking about - I used to hate to go to NYC because of the dirtiness and the smell. But, it has changed drastically. And so have the people. You should think of giving cities another chance. I think you would be pleasantly surprised at the positive changes.
I dont live in the boonies - I live in heart of the 9th largest City in the US. (Though we should really be 5th considering the metroplex) And what I'm afraid of is all the other people who live HERE. I dont go to dangerous places - I tend to stay home and post to forums like this one. And yet my car & home have been invaded. My possessions stolen. And I dont want my family to be next to be taken from me.
I have plans to live down here in Texas for health reasons among other things. The place I am trying to buy is a 45 minute drive from the city and 12 miles from the nearest town with a population over 100. It is an ideal location.
Holing up in your home is not the answer either. Get out - get to know your neighbors. I have found that people are the same - all over the world. And if you open yourself up to meeting and befriending them, they are much more likely to help you out. Volunteer in a neighborhood school, or coaching a local kids sports team. Help out at a neighborhood blood drive.
I'd like to tell you a story that I heard today. We had a young mother speak at our Rotary meeting today. She came along with the director of a non-profit in our city that is dedicated to helping parents, especially low income, less educated parents, understand local government and services. This mom went through their training programs, and eventually became one of their trainers with other parents. She used to stay at home, being fearful. Then someone suggested she go to one of these meetings and picked her up. She is now a confident, articulate speaker who knows a great many people in our city, in government, in the schools and among hundreds of parents.
She told us that one day her son threw a snowball on the street and hit a passing car. Another mother stopped her car and called him over and scolded him, telling him that she knew who his mother was and to watch his step. The son told her about the incident and complained that he would never be able to get away with anything ever again because she knew everybody in town now.
Cities are not much different from small towns - there are just more people to get to know. You can look at that as a benefit, and go out and meet them, or you can stay home in fear. I'm just sayin' that the first choice sounds like a better life to me.
I just wish some people didn't avoid civilization out of fear and insist on arming themselves for protection. It's actually kinda sad and lonely if its done for those reasons.
I do know my neighbors. We live in a communit of new homes (pricey because that's hard to find inside the city limits). I stared a listserv that 98% of the several hundres homes in our neighborhood all belong to. We discuss politics, crime (sometimes those are one in the same ), lawn mowing services, bad drivers, etc. When something happens in my neighborhood, I know it. When someone gets good service form a plumber or electrician, I know it.
Yet we still have multiple locks on doors, monitored alarm system, gated access, etc. That does not stop the bad guys - it only slows them down. In the last few months, 4 other homes within a block of me have been burglarized as well. Muggings and carjackings are not unheard of.
If you live in a big city, and you or someone close to you have not been victimized, then you are either lying or lucky. I'm not going to sit back and rely on luck!
Guns? I don't have one but I'm glad my neighbors do. I know who to call if there's trouble and they are not afraid to load up and check out the problem, yet none are trigger-happy... there has not been a gun discharged in my neighborhood (to my knowledge) in the 22 years we've owned this house.
I apoligize for the snide remark. I get resentful when someone from out of my state comes here and tries to tell me how to live my life. I am one of those 4th generation Montanans that was mentioned in a previous post. My Great-Grandfather was a performer on the stage in Virginia City when it was a mining town.
In any event, guns in MT have more to do with personal freedom than protection. It is a right we have always had and why should it be taken away from us? You spoke of keeping your house and car locked. Where I live, lots of people don't even lock their homes. We also have neighbors who keep an eye on your place while you are not there. Speaking of knowing neighbors, I know a good many of the people in the county, the population of which is about 8,000 souls and is not significantly smaller than Vermont in square miles. Again, why should we have our guns taken from us? We are not hurtuing anyone in your precious city.
You just described Madison County. Our population is so small that there is not one traffic light in the entire County and it is as big in sq miles as some of those eastern States. I truly hate to leave it but it is also 5,100+ feet in elevation and that is hard on my pitiful lungs. Sheridan is the second largest town with 700 people.
Our house has been unlocked since the day I bought it about 8 years ago.
Very seldom does anyone take the keys out of their ingition when they go to town. Hell, if someone got in a car they didn't have any business driving everyone in town would question why and make them explain.
Being old I was once told that if I did not go into the Stockmans Bar for a week the owner said he would come out and check on me.
If we go out of town everyone knows we are gone. We left one time and did not tell anyone we were going. Someone called the county sheriff. They came out and checked out place. They called and talked to our daughter Dorothy to find out what happened to us. It is and was not so much for me but my wife is Grandma Dee to the whole countryside.
I live in the other end of the state, in Valley County. I do know a number of people from Harrison and that part of the country. Karl Ohs was old friend of mine. Also Cal and Alice Smith are old acquaintences. You live in a beautiful area.
So that lake in you picture must be Fort Peck dam's lake? I lived on that end of the state some when I was a kid. Specifically Baker, when I was in high school. I spent most of the school year there living in and old shack I remodled to human habitation.