• Home
  • Friends
  • Groups
  • Share

SIGN IN | HELP
georgee.gather.com
  • profile|
  • posts|
  • photos|
  • videos|
  • comments|
  • friends|
  • groups
by Georgiana S.
Member since:
September 14, 2007

Not trying to knock anyone's religion, but these are FACTS!

April 17, 2009 11:50 PM EDT
views: 438 | rating: 7.8/10 (33 votes) | comments: 234

Being a person who was brought up in the Anglican (Episcopalian, Church of England) church, Sunday school, pagents and Episcopalian Academy, but who grew skeptical with age and accumulation of knowledge, of Organised Religion; a delving sort of personality with logic winning out, I still find the Spiritual rewarding and comforting, but not through conventional sources. This will, I hope, nudge some like-thinking people into the comfort of knowing we weren't wrong!

I am not saying a person called Jesus did not live at one time, but he is an historical figure only. He has nothing attributed to him throughout the ages that can be proven. I would like to hear thoughts from the people who will deny this is truth and written word!

 

The Forged Origins of The New Testament

In the fourth century, the Roman Emperor Constantine united all religious factions under one composite deity, and ordered the compilation of new and old writings into a uniform collection that became the New Testament.

 

Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 14, Number 4 (June - July 2007)
PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia. editor@nexusmagazine.com
Telephone: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381
From our web page at: www.nexusmagazine.com

by Tony Bushby © March 2007
Correspondence:
c/- NEXUS Magazine
PO Box 30, Mapleton, Qld 4560, Australia
Fax: +61 (0)7 5493 1900

 

What the Church doesn't want you to know
It has often been emphasised that Christianity is unlike any other religion, for it stands or falls by certain events which are alleged to have occurred during a short period of time some 20 centuries ago. Those stories are presented in the New Testament, and as new evidence is revealed it will become clear that they do not represent historical realities. The Church agrees, saying:
"Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted."
(Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings, "the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled" (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do not go back to the first century of the Christian era" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that "the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is some 350 years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of the biggest black holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there were no New Testaments until the fourth century: they were not written until then, and here we find evidence of the greatest misrepresentation of all time.

It was British-born Flavius Constantinus (Constantine, originally Custennyn or Custennin) (272-337) who authorised the compilation of the writings now called the New Testament. After the death of his father in 306, Constantine became King of Britain, Gaul and Spain, and then, after a series of victorious battles, Emperor of the Roman Empire. Christian historians give little or no hint of the turmoil of the times and suspend Constantine in the air, free of all human events happening around him. In truth, one of Constantine's main problems was the uncontrollable disorder amongst presbyters and their belief in numerous gods. 
The majority of modern-day Christian writers suppress the truth about the development of their religion and conceal Constantine's efforts to curb the disreputable character of the presbyters who are now called "Church Fathers" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1). They were "maddened", he said (Life of Constantine, attributed to Eusebius Pamphilius of Caesarea, c. 335, vol. iii, p. 171; The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, cited as N&PNF, attributed to St Ambrose, Rev. Prof. Roberts, DD, and Principal James Donaldson, LLD, editors, 1891, vol. iv, p. 467). The "peculiar type of oratory" expounded by them was a challenge to a settled religious order (The Dictionary of Classical Mythology, Religion, Literature and Art, Oskar Seyffert, Gramercy, New York, 1995, pp. 544-5). Ancient records reveal the true nature of the presbyters, and the low regard in which they were held has been subtly suppressed by modern Church historians. In reality, they were: 
"...the most rustic fellows, teaching strange paradoxes. They openly declared that none but the ignorant was fit to hear their discourses ... they never appeared in the circles of the wiser and better sort, but always took care to intrude themselves among the ignorant and uncultured, rambling around to play tricks at fairs and markets ... they lard their lean books with the fat of old fables ... and still the less do they understand ... and they write nonsense on vellum ... and still be doing, never done."
(Contra Celsum ["Against Celsus"], Origen of Alexandria, c. 251, Bk I, p. lxvii, Bk III, p. xliv, passim)

Clusters of presbyters had developed "many gods and many lords" (1 Cor. 8:5) and numerous religious sects existed, each with differing doctrines (Gal. 1:6). Presbyterial groups clashed over attributes of their various gods and "altar was set against altar" in competing for an audience (Optatus of Milevis, 1:15, 19, early fourth century). From Constantine's point of view, there were several factions that needed satisfying, and he set out to develop an all-embracing religion during a period of irreverent confusion. In an age of crass ignorance, with nine-tenths of the peoples of Europe illiterate, stabilising religious splinter groups was only one of Constantine's problems. The smooth generalisation, which so many historians are content to repeat, that Constantine "embraced the Christian religion" and subsequently granted "official toleration", is "contrary to historical fact" and should be erased from our literature forever (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. iii, p. 299, passim). Simply put, there was no Christian religion at Constantine's time, and the Church acknowledges that the tale of his "conversion" and "baptism" are "entirely legendary" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xiv, pp. 370-1).
Constantine "never acquired a solid theological knowledge" and "depended heavily on his advisers in religious questions" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. xii, p. 576, passim). According to Eusebeius (260-339), Constantine noted that among the presbyterian factions "strife had grown so serious, vigorous action was necessary to establish a more religious state", but he could not bring about a settlement between rival god factions (Life of Constantine, op. cit., pp. 26-8). His advisers warned him that the presbyters' religions were "destitute of foundation" and needed official stabilisation (ibid.). 
Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518).

The First Council of Nicaea and the "missing records"
Thus, the first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 1686, vol. i, p. 598). In an account of the proceedings of the conclave of presbyters gathered at Nicaea, Sabinius, Bishop of Hereclea, who was in attendance, said, "Excepting Constantine himself and Eusebius Pamphilius, they were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing" (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, Bishop J. W. Sergerus, 1685, 1897 reprint).
This is another luminous confession of the ignorance and uncritical credulity of early churchmen. Dr Richard Watson (1737-1816), a disillusioned Christian historian and one-time Bishop of Llandaff in Wales (1782), referred to them as "a set of gibbering idiots" (An Apology for Christianity, 1776, 1796 reprint; also, Theological Tracts, Dr Richard Watson, "On Councils" entry, vol. 2, London, 1786, revised reprint 1791). From his extensive research into Church councils, Dr Watson concluded that "the clergy at the Council of Nicaea were all under the power of the devil, and the convention was composed of the lowest rabble and patronised the vilest abominations" (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). It was that infantile body of men who were responsible for the commencement of a new religion and the theological creation of Jesus Christ.
The Church admits that vital elements of the proceedings at Nicaea are "strangely absent from the canons" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 160). We shall see shortly what happened to them. However, according to records that endured, Eusebius "occupied the first seat on the right of the emperor and delivered the inaugural address on the emperor's behalf" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, pp. 619-620). There were no British presbyters at the council but many Greek delegates. "Seventy Eastern bishops" represented Asiatic factions, and small numbers came from other areas (Ecclesiastical History, ibid.). Caecilian of Carthage travelled from Africa, Paphnutius of Thebes from Egypt, Nicasius of Die (Dijon) from Gaul, and Donnus of Stridon made the journey from Pannonia.

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii, paragraph 36).
Up until the First Council of Nicaea, the Roman aristocracy primarily worshipped two Greek gods-Apollo and Zeus-but the great bulk of common people idolised either Julius Caesar or Mithras (the Romanised version of the Persian deity Mithra). Caesar was deified by the Roman Senate after his death (15 March 44 BC) and subsequently venerated as "the Divine Julius". The word "Saviour" was affixed to his name, its literal meaning being "one who sows the seed", i.e., he was a phallic god. Julius Caesar was hailed as "God made manifest and universal Saviour of human life", and his successor Augustus was called the "ancestral God and Saviour of the whole human race" (Man and his Gods, Homer Smith, Little, Brown & Co., Boston, 1952). Emperor Nero (54-68), whose original name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus (37-68), was immortalised on his coins as the "Saviour of mankind" (ibid.). The Divine Julius as Roman Saviour and "Father of the Empire" was considered "God" among the Roman rabble for more than 300 years. He was the deity in some Western presbyters' texts, but was not recognised in Eastern or Oriental writings.

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).
At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

How the Gospels were created
Constantine then instructed Eusebius to organise the compilation of a uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the religious texts submitted at the council. His instructions were:
"Search ye these books, and whatever is good in them, that retain; but whatsoever is evil, that cast away. What is good in one book, unite ye with that which is good in another book. And whatsoever is thus brought together shall be called The Book of Books. And it shall be the doctrine of my people, which I will recommend unto all nations, that there shall be no more war for religions' sake."
(God's Book of Eskra, op. cit., chapter xlviii, paragraph 31)

"Make them to astonish" said Constantine, and "the books were written accordingly" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, pp. 36-39). Eusebius amalgamated the "legendary tales of all the religious doctrines of the world together as one", using the standard god-myths from the presbyters' manuscripts as his exemplars. Merging the supernatural "god" stories of Mithra and Krishna with British Culdean beliefs effectively joined the orations of Eastern and Western presbyters together "to form a new universal belief" (ibid.). Constantine believed that the amalgamated collection of myths would unite variant and opposing religious factions under one representative story. Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art" (ibid.). "These orders," said Eusebius, "were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself ... we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p. 36). They were the "New Testimonies", and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record.
With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the "word of the Roman Saviour God" (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonising in the Roman Empire. He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council "burnt" and declared that "any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders" (beheaded) (ibid.). As the record shows, presbyterial writings previous to the Council of Nicaea no longer exist, except for some fragments that have survived. 
Some council records also survived, and they provide alarming ramifications for the Church.Some old documents say that the First Council of Nicaea ended in mid-November 326, while others say the struggle to establish a god was so fierce that it extended "for four years and seven months" from its beginning in June 325 (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, op. cit.). Regardless of when it ended, the savagery and violence it encompassed were concealed under the glossy title "Great and Holy Synod", assigned to the assembly by the Church in the 18th century. Earlier Churchmen, however, expressed a different opinion.

The Second Council of Nicaea in 786-87 denounced the First Council of Nicaea as "a synod of fools and madmen" and sought to annul "decisions passed by men with troubled brains" (History of the Christian Church, H. H. Milman, DD, 1871). If one chooses to read the records of the Second Nicaean Council and notes references to "affrighted bishops" and the "soldiery" needed to "quell proceedings", the "fools and madmen" declaration is surely an example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Constantine died in 337 and his outgrowth of many now-called pagan beliefs into a new religious system brought many converts. Later Church writers made him "the great champion of Christianity" which he gave "legal status as the religion of the Roman Empire" (Encyclopedia of the Roman Empire, Matthew Bunson, Facts on File, New York, 1994, p. 86). Historical records reveal this to be incorrect, for it was "self-interest" that led him to create Christianity (A Smaller Classical Dictionary, J. M. Dent, London, 1910, p. 161). Yet it wasn't called "Christianity" until the 15th century (How The Great Pan Died, Professor Edmond S. Bordeaux [Vatican archivist], Mille Meditations, USA, MCMLXVIII, pp. 45-7). 
Over the ensuing centuries, Constantine's New Testimonies were expanded upon, "interpolations" were added and other writings included (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 135-137; also, Pecci ed., vol. ii, pp. 121-122). For example, in 397 John "golden-mouthed" Chrysostom restructured the writings of Apollonius of Tyana, a first-century wandering sage, and made them part of the New Testimonies (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, op. cit.). The Latinised name for Apollonius is Paulus (A Latin-English Dictionary, J. T. White and J. E. Riddle, Ginn & Heath, Boston, 1880), and the Church today calls those writings the Epistles of Paul. Apollonius's personal attendant, Damis, an Assyrian scribe, is Demis in the New Testament (2 Tim. 4:10).

The Church hierarchy knows the truth about the origin of its Epistles, for Cardinal Bembo (d. 1547), secretary to Pope Leo X (d. 1521), advised his associate, Cardinal Sadoleto, to disregard them, saying "put away these trifles, for such absurdities do not become a man of dignity; they were introduced on the scene later by a sly voice from heaven" (Cardinal Bembo: His Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, A. L. Collins, London, 1842 reprint).
The Church admits that the Epistles of Paul are forgeries, saying, "Even the genuine Epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of their authors" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vii, p. 645). Likewise, St Jerome (d. 420) declared that the Acts of the Apostles, the fifth book of the New Testament, was also "falsely written" ("The Letters of Jerome", Library of the Fathers, Oxford Movement, 1833-45, vol. v, p. 445).

The shock discovery of an ancient Bible
The New Testament subsequently evolved into a fulsome piece of priesthood propaganda, and the Church claimed it recorded the intervention of a divine Jesus Christ into Earthly affairs. However, a spectacular discovery in a remote Egyptian monastery revealed to the world the extent of later falsifications of the Christian texts, themselves only an "assemblage of legendary tales" (Encyclopédie, Diderot, 1759). On 4 February 1859, 346 leaves of an ancient codex were discovered in the furnace room at St Catherine's monastery at Mt Sinai, and its contents sent shockwaves through the Christian world. Along with other old codices, it was scheduled to be burned in the kilns to provide winter warmth for the inhabitants of the monastery. Written in Greek on donkey skins, it carried both the Old and New Testaments, and later in time archaeologists dated its composition to around the year 380. It was discovered by Dr Constantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874), a brilliant and pious German biblical scholar, and he called it the Sinaiticus, the Sinai Bible. Tischendorf was a professor of theology who devoted his entire life to the study of New Testament origins, and his desire to read all the ancient Christian texts led him on the long, camel-mounted journey to St Catherine's Monastery.
During his lifetime, Tischendorf had access to other ancient Bibles unavailable to the public, such as the Alexandrian (or Alexandrinus) Bible, believed to be the second oldest Bible in the world. It was so named because in 1627 it was taken from Alexandria to Britain and gifted to King Charles I (1600-49). Today it is displayed alongside the world's oldest known Bible, the Sinaiticus, in the British Library in London. During his research, Tischendorf had access to the Vaticanus, the Vatican Bible, believed to be the third oldest in the world and dated to the mid-sixth century (The Various Versions of the Bible, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1874, available in the British Library). It was locked away in the Vatican's inner library. Tischendorf asked if he could extract handwritten notes, but his request was declined. However, when his guard took refreshment breaks, Tischendorf wrote comparative narratives on the palm of his hand and sometimes on his fingernails ("Are Our Gospels Genuine or Not?", Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, lecture, 1869, available in the British Library).

Today, there are several other Bibles written in various languages during the fifth and sixth centuries, examples being the Syriacus, the Cantabrigiensis (Bezae), the Sarravianus and the Marchalianus.
A shudder of apprehension echoed through Christendom in the last quarter of the 19th century when English-language versions of the Sinai Bible were published. Recorded within these pages is information that disputes Christianity's claim of historicity. Christians were provided with irrefutable evidence of wilful falsifications in all modern New Testaments. So different was the Sinai Bible's New Testament from versions then being published that the Church angrily tried to annul the dramatic new evidence that challenged its very existence. In a series of articles published in the London Quarterly Review in 1883, John W. Burgon, Dean of Chichester, used every rhetorical device at his disposal to attack the Sinaiticus' earlier and opposing story of Jesus Christ, saying that "...without a particle of hesitation, the Sinaiticus is scandalously corrupt ... exhibiting the most shamefully mutilated texts which are anywhere to be met with; they have become, by whatever process, the depositories of the largest amount of fabricated readings, ancient blunders and intentional perversions of the truth which are discoverable in any known copies of the word of God". Dean Burgon's concerns mirror opposing aspects of Gospel stories then current, having by now evolved to a new stage through centuries of tampering with the fabric of an already unhistorical document.

The revelations of ultraviolet light testing
In 1933, the British Museum in London purchased the Sinai Bible from the Soviet government for £100,000, of which £65,000 was gifted by public subscription. Prior to the acquisition, this Bible was displayed in the Imperial Library in St Petersburg, Russia, and "few scholars had set eyes on it" (The Daily Telegraph and Morning Post, 11 January 1938, p. 3). When it went on display in 1933 as "the oldest Bible in the world" (ibid.), it became the centre of a pilgrimage unequalled in the history of the British Museum.
Before I summarise its conflictions, it should be noted that this old codex is by no means a reliable guide to New Testament study as it contains superabundant errors and serious re-editing. These anomalies were exposed as a result of the months of ultraviolet-light tests carried out at the British Museum in the mid-1930s. The findings revealed replacements of numerous passages by at least nine different editors. Photographs taken during testing revealed that ink pigments had been retained deep in the pores of the skin. The original words were readable under ultraviolet light. Anybody wishing to read the results of the tests should refer to the book written by the researchers who did the analysis: the Keepers of the Department of Manuscripts at the British Museum (Scribes and Correctors of the Codex Sinaiticus, H. J. M. Milne and T. C. Skeat, British Museum, London, 1938).

Forgery in the Gospels
When the New Testament in the Sinai Bible is compared with a modern-day New Testament, a staggering 14,800 editorial alterations can be identified. These amendments can be recognised by a simple comparative exercise that anybody can and should do. Serious study of Christian origins must emanate from the Sinai Bible's version of the New Testament, not modern editions. 
Of importance is the fact that the Sinaiticus carries three Gospels since rejected: the Shepherd of Hermas (written by two resurrected ghosts, Charinus and Lenthius), the Missive of Barnabas and the Odes of Solomon. Space excludes elaboration on these bizarre writings and also discussion on dilemmas associated with translation variations. 
Modern Bibles are five removes in translation from early editions, and disputes rage between translators over variant interpretations of more than 5,000 ancient words. However, it is what is not written in that old Bible that embarrasses the Church, and this article discusses only a few of those omissions. One glaring example is subtly revealed in the Encyclopaedia Biblica (Adam & Charles Black, London, 1899, vol. iii, p. 3344), where the Church divulges its knowledge about exclusions in old Bibles, saying: "The remark has long ago and often been made that, like Paul, even the earliest Gospels knew nothing of the miraculous birth of our Saviour". That is because there never was a virgin birth.
It is apparent that when Eusebius assembled scribes to write the New Testimonies, he first produced a single document that provided an exemplar or master version. Today it is called the Gospel of Mark, and the Church admits that it was "the first Gospel written" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 657), even though it appears second in the New Testament today. The scribes of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke were dependent upon the Mark writing as the source and framework for the compilation of their works. The Gospel of John is independent of those writings, and the late-15th-century theory that it was written later to support the earlier writings is the truth (The Crucifixion of Truth, Tony Bushby, Joshua Books, 2004, pp. 33-40).

Thus, the Gospel of Mark in the Sinai Bible carries the "first" story of Jesus Christ in history, one completely different to what is in modern Bibles. It starts with Jesus "at about the age of thirty" (Mark 1:9), and doesn't know of Mary, a virgin birth or mass murders of baby boys by Herod. Words describing Jesus Christ as "the son of God" do not appear in the opening narrative as they do in today's editions (Mark 1:1), and the modern-day family tree tracing a "messianic bloodline" back to King David is non-existent in all ancient Bibles, as are the now-called "messianic prophecies" (51 in total). The Sinai Bible carries a conflicting version of events surrounding the "raising of Lazarus", and reveals an extraordinary omission that later became the central doctrine of the Christian faith: the resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ and his ascension into Heaven. No supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any ancient Gospels of Mark, but a description of over 500 words now appears in modern Bibles (Mark 16:9-20).
Despite a multitude of long-drawn-out self-justifications by Church apologists, there is no unanimity of Christian opinion regarding the non-existence of "resurrection" appearances in ancient Gospel accounts of the story. Not only are those narratives missing in the Sinai Bible, but they are absent in the Alexandrian Bible, the Vatican Bible, the Bezae Bible and an ancient Latin manuscript of Mark, code-named "K" by analysts. They are also lacking in the oldest Armenian version of the New Testament, in sixth-century manuscripts of the Ethiopic version and ninth-century Anglo-Saxon Bibles. However, some 12th-century Gospels have the now-known resurrection verses written within asterisksÑmarks used by scribes to indicate spurious passages in a literary document.

The Church claims that "the resurrection is the fundamental argument for our Christian belief" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xii, p. 792), yet no supernatural appearance of a resurrected Jesus Christ is recorded in any of the earliest Gospels of Mark available. A resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ is the sine qua non ("without which, nothing") of Christianity (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xii, p. 792), confirmed by words attributed to Paul: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain" (1 Cor. 5:17). The resurrection verses in today's Gospels of Mark are universally acknowledged as forgeries and the Church agrees, saying "the conclusion of Mark is admittedly not genuine ... almost the entire section is a later compilation" (Encyclopaedia Biblica, vol. ii, p. 1880, vol. iii, pp. 1767, 1781; also, Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. iii, under the heading "The Evidence of its Spuriousness"; Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, pp. 274-9 under heading "Canons"). Undaunted, however, the Church accepted the forgery into its dogma and made it the basis of Christianity.
The trend of fictitious resurrection narratives continues. The final chapter of the Gospel of John (21) is a sixth-century forgery, one entirely devoted to describing Jesus' resurrection to his disciples. The Church admits: "The sole conclusion that can be deduced from this is that the 21st chapter was afterwards added and is therefore to be regarded as an appendix to the Gospel" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. viii, pp. 441-442; New Catholic Encyclopedia (NCE), "Gospel of John", p. 1080; also NCE, vol. xii, p. 407).

"The Great Insertion" and "The Great Omission"
Modern-day versions of the Gospel of Luke have a staggering 10,000 more words than the same Gospel in the Sinai Bible. Six of those words say of Jesus "and was carried up into heaven", but this narrative does not appear in any of the oldest Gospels of Luke available today ("Three Early Doctrinal Modifications of the Text of the Gospels", F. C. Conybeare, The Hibbert Journal, London, vol. 1, no. 1, Oct 1902, pp. 96-113). Ancient versions do not verify modern-day accounts of an ascension of Jesus Christ, and this falsification clearly indicates an intention to deceive. 
Today, the Gospel of Luke is the longest of the canonical Gospels because it now includes "The Great Insertion", an extraordinary 15th-century addition totalling around 8,500 words (Luke 9:51-18:14). The insertion of these forgeries into that Gospel bewilders modern Christian analysts, and of them the Church said: "The character of these passages makes it dangerous to draw inferences" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Pecci ed., vol. ii, p. 407). 
Just as remarkable, the oldest Gospels of Luke omit all verses from 6:45 to 8:26, known in priesthood circles as "The Great Omission", a total of 1,547 words. In today's versions, that hole has been "plugged up" with passages plagiarised from other Gospels. Dr Tischendorf found that three paragraphs in newer versions of the Gospel of Luke's version of the Last Supper appeared in the 15th century, but the Church still passes its Gospels off as the unadulterated "word of God" ("Are Our Gospels Genuine or Not?", op. cit.)

The "Expurgatory Index"
As was the case with the New Testament, so also were damaging writings of early "Church Fathers" modified in centuries of copying, and many of their records were intentionally rewritten or suppressed. 
Adopting the decrees of the Council of Trent (1545-63), the Church subsequently extended the process of erasure and ordered the preparation of a special list of specific information to be expunged from early Christian writings (Delineation of Roman Catholicism, Rev. Charles Elliott, DD, G. Lane & P. P. Sandford, New York, 1842, p. 89; also, The Vatican Censors, Professor Peter Elmsley, Oxford, p. 327, pub. date n/a). 
In 1562, the Vatican established a special censoring office called Index Expurgatorius. Its purpose was to prohibit publication of "erroneous passages of the early Church Fathers" that carried statements opposing modern-day doctrine. 
When Vatican archivists came across "genuine copies of the Fathers, they corrected them according to the Expurgatory Index" (Index Expurgatorius Vaticanus, R. Gibbings, ed., Dublin, 1837; The Literary Policy of the Church of Rome, Joseph Mendham, J. Duncan, London, 1830, 2nd ed., 1840; The Vatican Censors, op. cit., p. 328). This Church record provides researchers with "grave doubts about the value of all patristic writings released to the public" (The Propaganda Press of Rome, Sir James W. L. Claxton, Whitehaven Books, London, 1942, p. 182).
Important for our story is the fact that the Encyclopaedia Biblica reveals that around 1,200 years of Christian history are unknown: "Unfortunately, only few of the records [of the Church] prior to the year 1198 have been released". It was not by chance that, in that same year (1198), Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) suppressed all records of earlier Church history by establishing the Secret Archives (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. xv, p. 287). Some seven-and-a-half centuries later, and after spending some years in those Archives, Professor Edmond S. Bordeaux wrote How The Great Pan Died. In a chapter titled "The Whole of Church History is Nothing but a Retroactive Fabrication", he said this (in part):
"The Church ante-dated all her late works, some newly made, some revised and some counterfeited, which contained the final expression of her history ... her technique was to make it appear that much later works written by Church writers were composed a long time earlier, so that they might become evidence of the first, second or third centuries."
(How The Great Pan Died, op. cit., p. 46)

Supporting Professor Bordeaux's findings is the fact that, in 1587, Pope Sixtus V (1585-90) established an official Vatican publishing division and said in his own words, "Church history will be now be established ... we shall seek to print our own account"Encyclopédie, Diderot, 1759). Vatican records also reveal that Sixtus V spent 18 months of his life as pope personally writing a new Bible and then introduced into Catholicism a "New Learning" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. v, p. 442, vol. xv, p. 376). The evidence that the Church wrote its own history is found in Diderot's Encyclopédie, and it reveals the reason why Pope Clement XIII (1758-69) ordered all volumes to be destroyed immediately after publication in 1759.

Gospel authors exposed as imposters
There is something else involved in this scenario and it is recorded in the Catholic Encyclopedia. An appreciation of the clerical mindset arises when the Church itself admits that it does not know who wrote its Gospels and Epistles, confessing that all 27 New Testament writings began life anonymously:
"It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the evangelists themselves ... they [the New Testament collection] are supplied with titles which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those writings." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, pp. 655-6)

The Church maintains that "the titles of our Gospels were not intended to indicate authorship", adding that "the headings ... were affixed to them" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. i, p. 117, vol. vi, pp. 655, 656). Therefore they are not Gospels written "according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John", as publicly stated. The full force of this confession reveals that there are no genuine apostolic Gospels, and that the Church's shadowy writings today embody the very ground and pillar of Christian foundations and faith. The consequences are fatal to the pretence of Divine origin of the entire New Testament and expose Christian texts as having no special authority. For centuries, fabricated Gospels bore Church certification of authenticity now confessed to be false, and this provides evidence that Christian writings are wholly fallacious. 
After years of dedicated New Testament research, Dr Tischendorf expressed dismay at the differences between the oldest and newest Gospels, and had trouble understanding...
"...how scribes could allow themselves to bring in here and there changes which were not simply verbal ones, but such as materially affected the very meaning and, what is worse still, did not shrink from cutting out a passage or inserting one."
(Alterations to the Sinai Bible, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1863, available in the British Library, London)

After years of validating the fabricated nature of the New Testament, a disillusioned Dr Tischendorf confessed that modern-day editions have "been altered in many places" and are "not to be accepted as true" (When Were Our Gospels Written?, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, 1865, British Library, London).

Just what is Christianity?
The important question then to ask is this: if the New Testament is not historical, what is it? 
Dr Tischendorf provided part of the answer when he said in his 15,000 pages of critical notes on the Sinai Bible that "it seems that the personage of Jesus Christ was made narrator for many religions". This explains how narratives from the ancient Indian epic, the Mahabharata, appear verbatim in the Gospels today (e.g., Matt. 1:25, 2:11, 8:1-4, 9:1-8, 9:18-26), and why passages from the Phenomena of the Greek statesman Aratus of Sicyon (271-213 BC) are in the New Testament. 
Extracts from the Hymn to Zeus, written by Greek philosopher Cleanthes (c. 331-232 BC), are also found in the Gospels, as are 207 words from the Thais of Menander (c. 343-291), one of the "seven wise men" of Greece. Quotes from the semi-legendary Greek poet Epimenides (7th or 6th century BC) are applied to the lips of Jesus Christ, and seven passages from the curious Ode of Jupiter (c. 150 BC; author unknown) are reprinted in the New Testament.
Tischendorf's conclusion also supports Professor Bordeaux's Vatican findings that reveal the allegory of Jesus Christ derived from the fable of Mithra, the divine son of God (Ahura Mazda) and messiah of the first kings of the Persian Empire around 400 BC. His birth in a grotto was attended by magi who followed a star from the East. They brought "gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh" (as in Matt. 2:11) and the newborn baby was adored by shepherds. He came into the world wearing the Mithraic cap, which popes imitated in various designs until well into the 15th century. 
Mithra, one of a trinity, stood on a rock, the emblem of the foundation of his religion, and was anointed with honey. After a last supper with Helios and 11 other companions, Mithra was crucified on a cross, bound in linen, placed in a rock tomb and rose on the third day or around 25 March (the full moon at the spring equinox, a time now called Easter after the Babylonian goddess Ishtar). The fiery destruction of the universe was a major doctrine of Mithraism-a time in which Mithra promised to return in person to Earth and save deserving souls. Devotees of Mithra partook in a sacred communion banquet of bread and wine, a ceremony that paralleled the Christian Eucharist and preceded it by more than four centuries.
Christianity is an adaptation of Mithraism welded with the Druidic principles of the Culdees, some Egyptian elements (the pre-Christian Book of Revelation was originally called The Mysteries of Osiris and Isis), Greek philosophy and various aspects of Hinduism.

Why there are no records of Jesus Christ
It is not possible to find in any legitimate religious or historical writings compiled between the beginning of the first century and well into the fourth century any reference to Jesus Christ and the spectacular events that the Church says accompanied his life. This confirmation comes from Frederic Farrar (1831-1903) of Trinity College, Cambridge:
"It is amazing that history has not embalmed for us even one certain or definite saying or circumstance in the life of the Saviour of mankind ... there is no statement in all history that says anyone saw Jesus or talked with him. Nothing in history is more astonishing than the silence of contemporary writers about events relayed in the four Gospels."
(The Life of Christ, Frederic W. Farrar, Cassell, London, 1874)

This situation arises from a conflict between history and New Testament narratives. Dr Tischendorf made this comment: 
"We must frankly admit that we have no source of information with respect to the life of Jesus Christ other than ecclesiastic writings assembled during the fourth century." 
(Codex Sinaiticus, Dr Constantin von Tischendorf, British Library, London)

There is an explanation for those hundreds of years of silence: the construct of Christianity did not begin until after the first quarter of the fourth century, and that is why Pope Leo X (d. 1521) called Christ a "fable" (Cardinal Bembo: His Letters..., op. cit.).

About the Author: 
Tony Bushby, an Australian, became a businessman and entrepreneur early in his adult life. He established a magazine-publishing business and spent 20 years researching, writing and publishing his own magazines, primarily for the Australian and New Zealand markets.
With strong spiritual beliefs and an interest in metaphysical subjects, Tony has developed long relationships with many associations and societies throughout the world that have assisted his research by making their archives available. He is the author of The Bible Fraud (2001; reviewed in NEXUS 8/06 with extracts in NEXUS 9/01-03), The Secret in the Bible (2003; reviewed in 11/02, with extract, "Ancient Cities under the Sands of Giza", in 11/03) and The Crucifixion of Truth (2005; reviewed in 12/02) and The Twin Deception (2007; reviewed 14/03). Copies of these books are available from the NEXUS website and the Joshua Books website http://www.joshuabooks.com.
As Tony Bushby vigorously protects his privacy, any correspondence should be sent to him care of NEXUS Magazine, PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560, Australia, fax +61 (0) 7 5442 9381.

 

 

<hr id="stopSpelling"> 




 


 

  
Expand Tags: organized religion, new testament, disharmony through religion, fundamentalists, right wing fanatics, jesus, god, faith, belief systems, evengelicals, evolution
Expand To Groups: Everything Accepted!, Gimme More Points Plz, Gather Slackers, Hawk's Aerie, Artistic Minds®, Best Of Gather, Get the point?, I was REALLY bored ;), .....on Gather, ! Don'T Worry, Be Happy !, Post It All!, Endless points, ~Group for Anything~, Rake 'em in! Rack 'em up!, Fugitives From Ignorance, Conformity, and Peer Pressure, Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Nothing, Just Another Manic Monday (aka Mondays Suck!), Our Soul Journey, posts,picturesand videos,all types welcome please flag appropriately, GATHER GROUP E-MAIL UNLIMITED!!!!, Old Hippie's Corner, Point Fairies, Friends on Gather, *~~~Gatherers Gallery~~~*, FREEDOM GROUP, Publish freely, Finding Friends, !This and That and Everything Else!, Artistic Therapy, !!! Up All Night !!!, Mass Mails, Points, and Lots of Fun, OH MY!, You comment I'll follow, No Approvals Needed!, Ponderings, Gather it All and Share it with Your Friends, Gather Chats, !!anything!!, !!! The Cynical Empire !!!, ***Chocoholics Unite***, watvr u want, The Esoteric and Alternative, for Harmony, Mark's Point, Gather Broadcasting, Walkinganomaly's Universal Space!!!!, Make It Your Own, pointsandmorepoints, ! You Read What? on Gather !, KindredSpirits, ramblings and other misc, No Takers, Office Water Cooler Chat, !!na na hey hey we want points!!, !! ~*~ Show Me the Points ~*~ !!, Gather Addicts, points r yummy, For the Fun of It, POSTING for Points, TripleMore4Me, The Please Help Me Gather Points Group, The Age Of Aquarius, EXCUSE ME...DID YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO SAY???, Did you see this?, Whatever!, Do You Have a POINT?, Points The Way!, @ to Z - Post everything from A-Z (minus the X stuff), Californians on Gather, Weird and Interesting, Science and religion and the merger of the two, Constantly Commenting, 2009: All things created in '09, Polka Dots and Points!, ~* All I Wanna Do Is Score Some Points*~, Your Hearts Desire Posts, Reality, SHARE ANYTHING, Spirituality Explorers, !!! Best of the Worst !!!, Inviting-Points, Points Nation !!!, !!!!We want your posts!!!!, we all want points, WELL, HERE WE ALL ARE........NOW WHAT??, We Comment Back!, ~* Score The Points*~
rate

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10
email
print
link to this page
Paste this link into an email or IM
Bookmark this post:
Facebook
Twitter
Delicious
Buzz
More

Comments: 234

Laura C. Apr 17, 2009, 11:53pm EDT
I was also raised in the Episcopal church......I TOTALLY relate to what you're saying....
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kushal Poddar Apr 17, 2009, 11:53pm EDT
True to every religions.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Spartan * Apr 18, 2009, 12:10am EDT
Ask any of the "Vacation Bible School" crowd about the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene" sometime. THAT'S always good for riling up the evangelicals! It is precisely because of the Council of Nicaea that our current bibles are flawed works of men and NOT "divinely" inspired at all. Some questions to ask friends....why are there two distinct and different version of creation in Genesis? Why are there two separate and distinct versions of the birth of Christ in the New Testament? Who was "Timothy"?

Studying the Bible from an historical perspective is fascinating stuff. As an Episcopal, you should check out the works of Bishop John Shelby Spong. He puts a great deal of all this into great perspective!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Cathi L. Apr 18, 2009, 12:22am EDT
Spartan, the "Vacation Bible School" crowd doesn't mean they are evangelicals. Loads of faiths have vacation bible schools.

Timothy is my brother and he is a pain in the patooty.

Georgiana, excellent article. There is a lot of information here. While I don't know how accurate, it's interesting to discuss.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Terry White Apr 18, 2009, 12:38am EDT
Although I found this information years ago and so know you are right, over the last 30 years, I've also found that those who blindly accept the Bible and discount any of the historical facts by saying God has kept the Bible intact through inspiration of men NEED to believe that the Bible is infallible and showing them facts doesn't change that. They will believe what they have to believe in order to have a feeling of security or fellowship or rightiousness, or whatever. People have their own reasons for needing to believe it and will cling to whatever fills that need. Facts don't count to them.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 12:40am EDT
Facts huh . . . Cause some dude wrote it? Gimme a break . .
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 12:47am EDT
The Bible, some dude wrote it and you all drool and salivate over what you choose to take from the fantasy of men!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Nellie (Unofficial Official Gather AZZ Kicker) Apr 18, 2009, 12:50am EDT
the end.

good and interesting.

Yes, it was written. So was the bible, by man not by some big finger coming out of the heavens.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Susan V. Apr 18, 2009, 12:59am EDT
All I have is there are different religions and different belifes. So therefore no one can said theirs is the right one. I am not a deeply religious person but I do believe in God. Everyday the world gets worse. Why you ask maybe because of the taking God out of school. Taking God of everyday things. You picked a good subject to get people riled up with!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:00am EDT
yes, a group of guys plagerised and borrowed from other ancient laws and myths out the mists of time and created a tool for keeping the rabble in step.
Did you ever hear Matthew, Mark, Luke or John as names for any semetic peoples of the region? Not even in ancient Britain did those Anglo name appear for centuries!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
St. John of the Cross Apr 18, 2009, 1:00am EDT
Let us pray...

Father St. John of the Cross
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:02am EDT
Susan,
the belief in a higher power, universal consciousness, etc. is not in dispute here. Only Jesus as the son of one such, and How can a being of pure energy produce progeny?
It is Fatih, pure and simple that is required of mankind, not idolatry and worship and acrifice, but inner peace and inner strength that should keep mankind centered!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Nellie (Unofficial Official Gather AZZ Kicker) Apr 18, 2009, 1:02am EDT
Thank you, Georgiana. This is something I have tried to get across to so many people, but they just can't hear. I always say, my religion is older than christians...we just didn't write it down, we lived it.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:02am EDT
John? To whom to what? Decide, don't beg!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 1:03am EDT
Georgiana,

You called it facts, and it's really just some stuff a dude who writes anti-religious stuff wrote. That don't make it facts.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:03am EDT
They are the drooling rabble the texts were written for. 'You can fool some of the people, etc, etc!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 1:06am EDT
And you claim you're "Not trying to knock anyone's religion" . . ?

Liar.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Paula T. Apr 18, 2009, 1:09am EDT
I am so pleased to find a real article, with interesting content that encourages thought and investigation. Thank you for posting this and giving me something I enjoyed reading.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Susan V. Apr 18, 2009, 1:10am EDT
I am with John, Who and what makes you an expert.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:15am EDT
Well, yes, knocking all the primative peoples that missed the boat when the snopes fairy got to their precious writings!
John what do you think all those references to the writers of these were for? British Museum, Vatican, Catholic Encyclopedia... show me one bibliography to verify all those mistranslated misdated passages you "Christian's" all quote as a way to live in the modern world, hell, any world! i follow the advice of Mother Goose and Hans Christian Anderson more, at least Hansel and gretel kept kids from running off and taking things from strangers!
Susan, what makes me an expert? Well, intelligence, knowledge, refusing to conform to the precepts of others as rote. Shall I expand on the issue?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Susan V. Apr 18, 2009, 1:21am EDT
Well I am going to bed, I have heard enough believe what you want. I for one wish not to argue back and forth. I to refuse to to conform to your beliefs. I am at peace knowing what lies ahead for me.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 1:23am EDT
You lied, Georgiana . . . better luck next time  ; )
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jessica S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:25am EDT
definitely food for thought.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:27am EDT
"the hypnotised never lie..."
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:28am EDT
John, I do not lie. I present the facts, the truth it would seem, so it blew apart your stories you have had pat all your life, time to learn, time to EVOLVE!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Svetlana Goryacheva Apr 18, 2009, 1:32am EDT
Biblical canon is the theme of my report I'm going to present during the conference in Moscow on April 28 -30, and, yes, dear Georgiana, no matter what John says, from the scholarly point of view, what I read in your post is basically true. We have NO original or genuine manuscripts of the Bible, and those we have are copies made from copies made from copies, revised and rewritten many times.

Blessings and best wishes - S.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:32am EDT
" They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518)."

"Excepting Constantine himself and Eusebius Pamphilius, they were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing" (Secrets of the Christian Fathers, Bishop J. W. Sergerus, 1685, 1897 reprint)."

"The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings, "the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled" (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels "do not go back to the first century of the Christian era" (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6). This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ. In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that "the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD" (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7). That is some 350 years after the time the Church claims that a Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine, and here the true story of Christian origins slips into one of the biggest black holes in history. There is, however, a reason why there were no New Testaments until the fourth century: they were not written until then, and here we find evidence of the greatest misrepresentation of all time."


These are verified quotes, FROM THE CHURCH! What else do you need to believe the reality of it all?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:33am EDT
Thank you Svetlana and all the voices of reason and intelligence!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:34am EDT
Go ahead Tony, I am sure the man called Jesus told Pharisees jokes! LOL
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Chuck L. Apr 18, 2009, 1:34am EDT
Sic 'em, Georgiana! And, whist you're at it... go ahead - knock their religions.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:37am EDT
LOL Chuck!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Svetlana Goryacheva Apr 18, 2009, 1:52am EDT
"Honestly the Bible (even if it isn't the inspired Word of God like you contend) has more goodness in it than probably any other book out there. If everyone followed half of the stuff it promotes the world would be a much better place!"

Unfortunately, the world history (and I'm a historian first) proves otherwise. And, with all the due respect, dear Heidi, I wonder if you read the WHOLE Bible.

Blessings and best wishes - S.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:53am EDT
LOL Tony.
Heidi,
I do not believe that you can read what you want, the Bible drones on and on and no one knows who wrote it, it was not Jesus, it was not God. They didn't write and the article I posted is credited with its sources and available to all who wish to spread it all over the Internet.
You Christians have the right to quote the Bible? Did you get permission?
You have the right to forward anything that comes to you through e mail.

now, if you are so intelligent why do you not question? That is the sign of intelligence, FREE WILL!!
Believe, my mother did from the time she found religion till her dying day at 94. She also kept it to herself!

these writings I present here are written by Popes and theologians, are you, Heidi, John, Susan and the minority, blinded to anything you choose not to believe? Youa re so afraid that you will be left dangling without cause! So sad!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Svetlana Goryacheva Apr 18, 2009, 1:55am EDT
"Also, one thing I wanted to mention is that there is a lot of prophesy in the Old Testament that is fulfilled in the New Testament."

No. Actually, the New Testament is a kind of midrash on the Old Testament - Jesus' followers were so convinced about God's presence in his life and personality that they simply ascribed the "fulfillment" of all these prophesies to him, not to mislead anyone (God forbid!), but to describe this experience using the only language they knew.

Blessings - S.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Cena W. Apr 18, 2009, 1:55am EDT
Gorgeiana,
Many of us did not need historical research to become non-believers.
It was only a matter of asking the questions and choosing to settle for nothing that is not verifiable.

As for believers,
They require no verification for their "faith" in the unprovable.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:55am EDT
Of course the people who wrote the New Testament read and took from previous writings, like the OLD Testament. Logic tells you Heidi that mithra was the original and the lore was completely stolen from that story as the Christ story. Talk about plagerism!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 1:57am EDT
Svetlana, how funny. I wrote the same thing to Heidi and hit submit and your comment, the same argument as mine, came up with it! Great minds!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 2:03am EDT
Thanks Cena, I always remember a story my father told me I did, saying my prayers before going to bed as about a 4 year old, I said to my dad:"If God created the universe and all that there is in, where did he put it?"
my father, was curious himself at that statement 'out of the mouths of babes' and asked the minister at our church, the minister had no answer and in turn asked his contemporaries and bishops andno one ever could definitively answer the query of a 4-year-old!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 2:05am EDT
Tony, you bring up another viable theory. the whole "...Jesus ascended..." thing, could it be the alien going home?!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 2:15am EDT
lapsang soochung!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 2:23am EDT
How'd you know I sneezed?!!!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 2:32am EDT
Cena,

I think a logical person can see, these two statements are contradictory;

"It was only a matter of asking the questions and choosing to settle for nothing that is not verifiable.

As for believers,
They require no verification for their "faith" in the unprovable.

You have settled for something you cannot possibly verify. I was a "strong agnostic", with a decent education in science . . and philosophy, history, literature . . . And I did not believe God existed. I wasn't just open minded in word, though, and at about age forty, I did an open-minded thing.

I asked a God I did not believe could hear me (but did not accept such a belief as if fact  ; )   to relieve me of my doubt, for I knew I could not. I was wrong, and a "heart-knower" informed me of my error. He exists, and I have "met" Him. I know, and you believing I don't, is the unverifiable belief  ; )
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Svetlana Goryacheva Apr 18, 2009, 2:43am EDT
No, I have a better question for John... my dear friend, have you ever stopped to think about the fact that practically every believer of practically every known religion on this Earth claims that he (or she, or they) had a personal experience or a special revelation from God that was able to convince them (kinda of) - but, regardless of this fact, these experiences could differ from each other so tremendously and the content of these revelations could be sometimes so contradictory that - with all the due respect - if one bothers to write it all down, assuming that every one and each of them came from God, there would be undoubtedly questions about God's sanity? ;-)

Blessings - S.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dano C. Apr 18, 2009, 3:33am EDT
Some believe religion is the opiate of the masses.

Some believe that their religion is so exclusive that they can't listen to other's opinion.

Some believe not only that all religion is fallacy and myth to be discredited.

What I know is that the God I believe in is thoughtful enough to understand not only our differences, but also what we have in common. Jesus taught in parables and that God is Love. I have had doubts that led me to unbelief, but much more to believe again.

Since you approached from a historical perspective, and found the history of Christian beliefs somewhat in common with other religions, what does this say to you? Isn't it true that the reason we don't have records all the way back that there were wars fought and people sought to destroy the records of others? What does this tell you?

Thank you for your research, it's an interesting compilation.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Elizabeth (This place IS my Soap Opera) O. Apr 18, 2009, 7:57am EDT
I have tried for years to tell people that the Bible was written by many men over many years. God does not have a typewritter.
Thanks Georgie...
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Spartan * Apr 18, 2009, 10:07am EDT
In response to Cathi L.....My use of "The Vacation Bible School Crowd" is my way of defining 99% of the evangelical church goers today. They have no more than a "Vacation Bible School" understanding of the bible. Seemingly "intelligent" adults who actually believe Jonah was swallowed by a big fish, or that Noah was able to round up two of every living animal. The same people who are desperately looking for Noah's Ark in Turkey to no avail since the myth about Noah probably evolved out of a story about a guy building a raft in the Tigris/Euphrates Flood Plain of what is now southern Iraq.

My question still stands. Who was Timothy, or who wrote the "book of Timothy"? Also, why are there books of the bible used in the Catholic church and NOT used in Protestant bibles? Why did a well meaning monk in the 8th or 9th century make up and insert the story of Jesus saving the prostitute from being stoned? There is no evidence of this ever happening in the original Aramaic or Koina Greek gospels that were "cherry picked" to be in the bible at the Council of Nicaea where they "conveniently" also left out the "Gospel of Mary Magdalene"!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Elizabeth (This place IS my Soap Opera) O. Apr 18, 2009, 10:59am EDT
I recently watched an HBO special about evangelicals. They had a children's rally and told them that the Behemoth, what's his name fought, was actually a, wait for it....
DINOSAUR!
Because, we, as a race, would have survived had dinosaurs and humans been here at the same time. And, whatever killed them, we were immune to...
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
c.l.m. 180˚ Apr 18, 2009, 11:29am EDT
... does any of this discount faith?

faith in God?
faith in the higher order of life?
faith that there is more to what meets the proverbial eye, ear, mind, heart, soul, & spirit? faith that no matter what one may believe or not believe does not diminish the Universe? faith that as grand as mankind is or has become, does not take away the factual knowledge that man has yet achieved anything of lasting value or cohesion upon planet earth?

sometimes I wonder what all our facts & evidence prove also.
perhaps our earth is just being exactly what our earth was intended for.

.. seeing how great or how biased or even base mankind really is ... with or without God!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Leo Lemmer Apr 18, 2009, 1:26pm EDT
I agree with Georgiana and Freud.

Thank you, Georgiana
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 4:29pm EDT
Christians, anyone want to explain communion. Why do you drink the wine and eat the bread saying this signifies Christ's blood and body? Is this just something you do in a trance without any thinking or meaning or is it the lizard in you that says it's alright.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 4:36pm EDT
Well then what does it mean to you Stanley?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 4:39pm EDT
Ben, I don't have a problem with Jesus, I have a problem with a statement that claims there is only one way or the highway. John 3: 16
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 4:57pm EDT
Your explanation was very eloquent Stanley but of course it would not mean the same to everyone.

Ben, people have accepted the "simple" way long enough. If you look up the word simple it means ignorant.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 5:01pm EDT
a?poth?e?o?sis? ?
1. the elevation or exaltation of a person to the rank of a god.
So all I have to do is take communion and I will be on a equal footing with God?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 5:03pm EDT
Why is the cosmic Jesus concerned with a body?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 5:08pm EDT
What is your belief Ben, do you have a religion?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sunaura *. Apr 18, 2009, 5:14pm EDT
We are approaching 4th dimensional reality and when that happens the mystery is solved, we will have the answers.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Angela A. Apr 18, 2009, 5:41pm EDT
There's no doubt that the bible was written by men and not God.
But, whoever wrote it, or why or even when doesn't matter to me.
I still believe the teachings instilled therein.

I'm also here to inform you that you posted this to my group, Anythingwriting
and it's a post that's not allowed.
Sorry for that.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jodie B. Apr 18, 2009, 5:47pm EDT
This comment is to let you know that this content has reached at least ten comments, and as such has been removed from Comment Speedway! Congratulations!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 6:06pm EDT
OK Angela, it is writing so I figured it could be read, no matter, I post to many sites, as you do!

OK, See you have all been busy while I have been off line. I see all your points, but it is going away from the original reason I posted this. I don't wish for any of you to think I am an Atheist or disbeliever. It is WHAT I believe in that is the point.
I believe in God but not religion. Simple.
I believe that some men, some three-hundred years after the events described, wrote a plausible story, or group of stories, about a perhaps fictional character who had lived centuries beofe they did. This was a commission of sorts to write a lore for the masses to follow it would keep the heirarchy of the religious men (shaman's) of the time to keep order and threaten those who did not follow with damnation. It was a conspiracy of the highest order and mankind, for the most part, fell for it. over the millenium since it has become perverted and twisted to fit into the cultures who took it up. There is always someone to take advantage and weave the fantastic into a new creed and the problem I have with these religious societies is they use what was at first harmless story (parable) telling to their own ends. It is organised religion and congregating that I am against.

Even after reading documented facts that Jesus never spoke to someone who wrote it down live and in person, how do you know ben or John or any of you that it is direct quotes and not fireside tales woven to lead the people to do the right thing?

Nothing is THE WORD OF GOD!!! This peace and understanding you all feel, I get from meditation, not praying to an entity, I get it from within, and the higher power WITHIN US ALL is what we tap into and somereceive enlightenment. It is inside you all along, as evil is as well, you have to know how to tap into it and find relief from stress and relax into a state where you come to understand, have an epiphany if you will, Free Will is what we have as higher mammals and rather than following the richly dressed shiny clergy around thrwoing them money and dignity, go inside yourself. be alone and be strong!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Renita P. Apr 18, 2009, 6:07pm EDT
What I find really sad about this whole conversation is that in the title you say you are not knocking anyone's religion. yet in every response to anyone who disagrees, you have a derogatory comment to make about that person. I am a Christian and I stand firm in my faith. Do I believe it just because the Bible says it? No. I believe it because of what I have studied and prayed about, and how I feel convicted in my spirit. I have ultimate peace in knowing where I'll be when this life is over.

I respect that you don't believe as I do, and I believe that everyone has a right to choose what they believe. What I do NOT do is go around calling everyone who disagrees with me derogatory names or treating them as if they are stupid for disagreeing.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Joe T. Apr 18, 2009, 6:08pm EDT
When I was a young Roman Catholic altar boy, I had many questions. The Roman Catholics continue to believe that their church is the "true" church because of apostolic succession beginning with Peter. I was to learn later that the account of Peter and the church was written four centuries later. As you so eloquently bring to light, the New Testament is the concoction of mortal men who had never once experienced any form of spirituality with Jesus. In fact, they were much older and didn't even know Jesus. So, all that I was taught in the Roman Catholic Church is a lie. The lie is so well packaged that most Roman Catholics can't see it. A thorough reading of the history of the New Testament reveals the truth. I learned these things in college. When I was around thirteen, I couldn't avoid this nagging feeling that the religion wasn't taking for me. I prayed (or did something that seemed prayerful) often and finally had to admit that all of my thoughts were merely wishful thinking based on information that couldn't be verified or proven. Then, I innocently mentioned during confession that I had my doubts. The priest knew me behind the screen and ranted for about fifteen minutes about matters regarding the Holy Name Society (a group of men in the church dedicated to helping converts to the church among other things). It turned out that there was some dissension within the ranks about the actions of this priest. He used my confession as an opportunity to vent his own misgivings about some of the members of the church. This experience was what I came to see as the beginning of the end. The Roman Catholic Church deserves the criticism it gets. It is vindictive and mean-spirited. I wouldn't attend any services on purpose. I have attended weddings and funerals in the church. But, I don't consider myself a Roman Catholic, today. As I grew older and learned of the notion that homosexuals are "objectively disordered," I had to face facts and leave the church. It was sad, because to this day, some of the nicest people I've ever known were the Roman Catholics of my childhood. Indeed, there were some wonderful nuns (the Sisters of Mercy) in my education who went above and beyond to help me with my studies.

I am committed to honesty in my life, today. I'm afraid that the lies of the Roman Catholic Church go against that important moral ethic that I chose for myself. Your article, Georgiana, serves as a stark reminder that the truth does indeed set a person free. To live mired in lies creates an uncomfortable desperation that seems to permeate many Jesus based religions, I'm afraid.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 6:20pm EDT
All the words of all the holy writings over time, in all countries and all religions have been mis-interpreted by many and used for wars and ethnic cleansing and crusades.
Without religion we would have few wars. it is God who is being fought over! Whose God is real? whose god is true? Why not Krishna? Whay not Mithra? Whay not Buddah? Whay not Mohammed? Even John Smith and Ron L Hubbard try to twist belief into an organisation. It is big business at its most refined!
The Catholic Church is the richest entitiy on earth. Followed closely by LDS (Latter dAy Saints), the separation of church and state has been blurred to where the religious right are trying to tell women what to do with their bodies (like the Taliban) mormon's are funding Prop. 8 here in CA to keep same sex couples from marrying! It is disgraceful that the supreme court allows such perversions! The Extremist muslims (more Fundamentalist sects) are the same as the Christian Right, if a bit more culturally different, their message is the same, believe in Allah OUR WAY or die!

The second End of dAys is being touted as near! PULEEZE! It is said, the historical Jesus may well have spoken to a few crowds in his day, the reason no one wrote it down? Well, they figured here was the Messiah, that meant End of Days was coming and soon, so no one wrote anything down!

I am not saying that the tales woven into stories in the Bible don't have good messages, if the translations from the aramaic and greek and persian and on and on haven't been bastardised to where the true meaning has been obscured completely, but the people who take the words in the Bible as literal applications to apply ato our modern times is foolhearty! You don't pick up a Victorian book on Practical Health and follow it without amending cures and so forth with the more modern findings of your own day.
creationists live in a Sunday School world of fairy tales. All I want is for people to get some sense and not follow the Bible like it is a rule book!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 6:28pm EDT
Renita, if you explored your memory "I don't mean to knock any ones religion, but..." is a quote from John Lennon in the 1965 film "Help", when he rescues Ringo from being disembowelled by the Evil Kali's priest Leo MacKern!

i am not putting down anyone here, nor am I calling anyone names (not so's you'd notice anyway!) I am trying to show the confused that they are being hoodwinked, and if you are happy in that, great! But do not push your brand of religion onto others by quoting me scripture or telling the government what to do!

Joe, you sound like you were enlightened young, good for you!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 6:29pm EDT
Svetlana,

"No, I have a better question for John... my dear friend, have you ever stopped to think about the fact that practically every believer of practically every known religion on this Earth claims that he (or she, or they) had a personal experience or a special revelation from God that was able to convince them . . . "

Don't know or care about that, I reported what I witnessed. Which is to say, what I could "verify". Had nothing come of the request, I would perhaps be reporting that, but a whole lot of blatant "interaction" occured, to my utter amazement, indeed shock (took about six weeks of strange goings on, before I could "believe" it, I'm rather skeptical by nature). And, the Book was clearly and repeatedly implicated in many ways. I have no choice in the matter, one does not argue with the sort of Thing I encountered  ; )

I can certainly understand that others are not going to "believe" based on anything I might say, and I don't expect or ask that. I suggest one ask directly, in all sincerity, for Him to reveal Himself (if that is His will), if you wish to actually know. Many don't, I suspect, but would rather deal in rumors, personal ideas, and speculation . . . Which of course will never "verify" anything for them.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 6:30pm EDT
John, how do you know it was God? There is much coincidence in life.
I can ask a question of the Tarot of I ching and usually get a reading that says exactly what I am thinking, gives me the answer! Rationalisation is an amazing trait unique to man!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Joe T. Apr 18, 2009, 6:34pm EDT
Thank you, Georgiana. I meant what I said about honesty, just don't pick on my Easter Bonnet.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Elizabeth (This place IS my Soap Opera) O. Apr 18, 2009, 6:45pm EDT
Christians, anyone want to explain communion. Why do you drink the wine and eat the bread saying this signifies Christ's blood and body? Is this just something you do in a trance without any thinking or meaning or is it the lizard in you that says it's alright. -Suanara

HAHAHA! Good question?!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 6:58pm EDT
Put your Easter Bonnet away with the bunnies and eggs and all the other christian symbols! LOL
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 7:01pm EDT
Stanley, by all means, I am all for Spirituality, but it is a coming together of the two hemispheres of our brains that creates the 'spark'!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 7:08pm EDT
ben, yes, I agree, but other teachers than the bible scripture have said this, and way before the Bible!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 7:19pm EDT
But it is a lie and a fallacy, based on the purient needs of clerics and kings! It is political and cleverly entwined with propoganda!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 7:45pm EDT
Georgiana,

"John, how do you know it was God? There is much coincidence in life"

Well, of course, I was well aware of that, and that sort of possibility was constantly present in my mind, and like I said, it took several weeks to overcome the habitual self doubting and so on. I never set aside skepticism, or stifled any form of reasoning about what was going on, He did it "straight up", right in the face of my reluctance.

Like I said, it was not a single moment or episode, for I am far to aware of how the mind can fool itself to get all exited about this or that coincidence or appearance of syncopation, etc. I witnessed far more convincing things than stuff like Terot, I-ching, horoscope stuff, that would never have done the trick.

I could explain some of what happened, but there's no point really, it would just be rumors to others. I would suggest you realize that a real live God, can do whatever it takes, and make it educational, and intriguing, and self revelation, all at the same time. If it would take flipping your car three times and setting it back down in place, He could do that, no problem . . . but it doesn't matter, cause He can tell precisely what one needs and what one can most benifit by, and speak to the actual doubts one has, as they occur (or even well before they occur  ; )

Rationalizing is a two edged sword, and one can rationalize away the truth, just as easily as rationalizing in, the false. And He knew I knew that too . . He was relentless, and incredibly gentle, and precise. It was obvious by the end, that He could see through me, and all I am, as easily as we see through a clear glass of water, and cause anything at all to happen in the time-space continuum. It was Him all right, the God of Abraham, the heart-knower. But you have to see for yourself . . . nothing else will do it, I don't think, if you're like me  ; )
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Joe T. Apr 18, 2009, 7:51pm EDT
John,

What you saw is commonly referred to as a hallucination. You need to see a doctor and be totally honest about it. It will continue to happen until you get the medical attention that you need.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 7:59pm EDT
Joe,

What you are claiming you know I experienced, is called imagination. As I've told you before, that ain't a window on ultimate reality. The mere fact that you speak as if it was, betrays the silliness of your reasoning and behaviour.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 8:04pm EDT
ben,

He is what He is, not what you wish or dream . . . Words like "above all creeds or dogmas", sound cool, but He is not what sounds cool to a human being. He is what He is, and has done what He has done.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Joe T. Apr 18, 2009, 8:05pm EDT
Sometimes a hallucination is just a hallucination, John.

I have tuned out and dropped out of religion, Ben. That's where I fit.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Elizabeth (This place IS my Soap Opera) O. Apr 18, 2009, 8:08pm EDT
Dear Elizabeth: The ritual of communion makes concrete or symbolic
the transformation of mere men into sons of "God."-Ben

Dear Ben, and here is where we have our first of many problems. Where is the feminine in all of this? Where is the Goddess, and the daughters?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 8:08pm EDT
I have faith in myself and the powers that I may contain. I might request assistance from the Universe at times, and to some the easiest way is to use the word god, dog works too.
Apparently my life was saved by prayer and so, thanks, but I do not beilive in Bible thrumpers. That is my point in this post. Like letting someone know their 'shroud of Turin' is a fake, get over it. Believe in a higher power, call it what you wish, just don't try to tell me Jesus wrote this or God wrote that! It is the Scripture spouters that annoy. in fact, I refrained from discussing religion as such till I came across Fundamentalist Christian's here on Gather. You try to push a symbol or quote from Jesus when he never said such thing, you lose me!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Georgiana S. Apr 18, 2009, 8:09pm EDT
I like to call him The Big Banger!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Elizabeth (This place IS my Soap Opera) O. Apr 18, 2009, 8:10pm EDT
I've heard of St Francis, but can't put a face to the name, so to speak. I was raised in an atheist home and have been a Witch and practiced Witchcraft for more than 20 years. MY experiences with "christians" has not been one of "joy".
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
John Knight Apr 18, 2009, 8:14pm EDT
Elizabeth,

Christians are not Him, and anyone that can mouth a few syllables, can call themselves a Christian. Ask for yourself, I suggest.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Elizabeth (This place IS my Soap Opera) O. Apr 18, 2009, 8:15pm EDT
John,
What you saw is commonly referred to as a hallucination. You need to see a doctor and be totally honest about it. It will continue to happen until you get the medical attention that you need. -Joe T

My friend, you now owe me a new laptop!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Peter Joseph Swanson Apr 18, 2009, 8:16pm EDT
And once upon a time a lot of people were Aztec and really believed real hard in it for a long time, with all their imagination. But that's all gone now. Someday, so will this one.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in