Reception~ An Author's Dance with the Audience WOMBATS CCLXX

FIRST!!!!!!!!!! And for Vivian!!! Wow!! And we both love artichokes.

I only have three. Everyone else is s.o.l. on the artichokes.

I think you are talking about second draft re-writing. At least for me. I will go through the whole thing (well, that is I would, if I ever finished one) and then read it and say "Eeewww. That's terrible, how can I fix it?" And then fix it in draft 2. And then do the editing once all the crap was taken care of.

Yes! Artichokes!

Lisa had an in depth response right at the wire in regards to pollution in China. I saw the pictures my husband took of Hong Kong and I have no interest in visiting in the near future because of the layer of ick in the air.

Diving out to collect a child, chatter. Go on, chat!

Simon I just keep writing new ones so I don't have to edit and answer my above questions. Something is telling me that this may not be a good long term strategy though.

Who among us does not like artichokes?!

Oh, I'll repost all that here. I guess.

Good. One each for Vivian and I, and one for you Beaker. Sorry about the family.
Lisa made a great point at the end of the last thread. To which I refer you all. I am not going into it here. This is an artichoke and writing to the audience thread.

OK Vivian, this is getting scary. Are you me? Am I you? My true love, who is lurking around here could be getting suspicious. Hell, even I am getting suspicious. We have to stop this right now. Here is a test. I will say the word "aardvark." If you say the same work on a cross post, well, I dont know.

What I said, and then we can get back to artichokes. Because I want an artichoke.

What Cathy and Jamie said.

And the air in California has improved tremendously because of California's regulations. Because of government. Plus, you do know that California's energy usage has remained flat since the 70s because of regulation (there was a great series of articles about this in the NYT and I think WaPo a couple years ago. I have it somewhere).

I also like the idea of using the government procurement process to encourage entrepreneurial efforts - like say, hey, we want our government fleet to be plug-in hybrids by X year. Create a market and you create an incentive.

Annnddd...the problem in China vis is not central planning. It's exactly the opposite. Provinces do whatever the hell they want with little regulatory oversight. Pollution there kills people, and not always slowly.

The head of their EPA is a really smart dude named Pan Yue, and he has flat-out stated that in the long run, the lack of regulation damages the Chinese economy and even threatens China's "economic miracle". But that's the problem with the way our "capitalist" system has function in recent years, in general. It only looks to the next quarter, not to long term profits. And a part of this is a distortion of costs. If businesses don't have to pay the real cost of dirtying the environment, there's no disincentive to stop them from doing so.

I think that capitalism and entrepreneurialism can be huge engines of human progress, but that we need to really look at costs and benefits in a different way.

(to which I added)

Oh, Sy just said that too. About regulations, I mean.

I also meant to say that whether you believe China's pollution causes global climate change or not, there's no arguing that it affects us right here in the US. We get China's air pollution here, on the West Coast. We also get contaminated products in our food and vitamins. I mean, if we want to back away from the global economy, that's one thing, and another discussion. But most true believers in free markets would argue against that, wouldn't they?

So, there has to be another leg to capitalism and free markets, and that is a notion of common interests and the common good.

Besides, with mega-corporatism, it's kind of silly to talk about "free enterprise" and fair competition anyway. They've so distorted the regulatory and trading system to their advantage, there's little free or fair about it.

Now where's my artichoke?

I'd rather just write a new one, too. I'll probably never produce anything publishable. But I'm having one hell of a good time.

What Lisa said.

Now, I like my artichokes marinated in olive oil, a touch of pepper, and then fried in butter. OK, Beaker?

Is this where I admit to never having had an artichoke?

And I obviously agree with Lisa. But I think that goes without saying.

Ooops. That should read: "the problem in China vis POLLUTION is not central planning"

Phew, Vivian didnt say "aardvark". Phew, that weird space time coincidence thing has stopped. Or Vivian just left to make dinner. Or eat it.

I'm off to cook dinner. No artichokes. Just chicken fried rice. Mmmmm..... Fried.

mmmm.... the promise of artichokes led me here. I promise to make some. soon. LOVE LOVE LOVE them!

Chapter breaks drive me a bit crazy. They come naturally for me on the first draft. Then when I rewrite, I question their placement and change them all. Then I rewrite a third time, and change them again. Likely back to where they were in the first place, but at that point, I can't remember where the heck they'd been.

Thanks for posting this.

So, hello Wombats. Great topic, Wanda. Though I've professed many times here I'm no writer, as a reader I consider the last 4 bullets as I'm reading along. More than once I've dropped a book due to incongruity on one of those 4 points. Or the writing was just plain flat.

I had to include something readerly, since this isn't the cooks thread.

Bethany, how nice to see you again. You have been missed. So, we have another artichoke lover. And I might add, a passionate one, at that.

So tell us, Bethany, how DO you make your artichokes? And how can we entice you to stay with longer this time?

Hello Simon! Lately, I've been gorging on the abundance of beautifully fresh asparagus, sauteed, in butter, I might add. A little truffle oil and sea salt makes it spectacular. Must try that with artichokes, but must admit. lemon and melted butter for dipping is divine. Oh yeah, wait, this isn't a cooking thread. Must be time for supper.

Bethany

Interesting. I like to dip my asparagus into some melted butter as well. As you say, its divine.

Simon, use your imagination and entice away!

Maybe it's not artichokes (or asparagus) you all like; maybe it's melted butter. :-) Just sayin'

Jill, you are right! I like my butter melted. And ready for dipping.

My imagination can be a dangerous thing, my dear. As are all of ours. After all, we are writers. As well as cooks.

But since you seem to be enticeable, I will give it a try. Just dont expect me to come up with anything here. Lurkers abound, you know.

I went to collect the child, whom I found flirting with a boy on the band hall steps! *Sigh...young love, so sweet. Hope I don't have to rip anything off him :)

Jill, I'm with you on the chapter breaks. I get all in a tizzy trying to find the right spot. I do know that I hate it when an author places it in the middle of the scene because they want to keep reading, but it makes no sense at all!

Bethany this is a perfect readers' commenting thread. I think both sides are crucial here. Either likes or dislikes.

Jamie you are much further along than you think. I see the future and a spine on my shelf with Chapman scrolled across it.

Asparagus, Artichoke, Lobster, Crab...Crabby Lobsters with big asparagus spears bearing artichokes. You name it!

See, now Jill is using her imagination. And skirting close to danger, I might add. But she does have a point. Or is that me?

Bethany

Crabby lobsters (did they have a tough day?) with asparagus spears? That's pretty imaginative. Are you sure you arent a writer?

Sorry Jill, Simon and our host Wanda - begin talking food and I'm all over it. I read a lot of recipe books too - does that count?

OK, I will depart from this enticing discussion of melted butter and other cooking related subjects. For the moment.

The way to do chapter breaks is easy. Follow Dan Brown. Pretend its a louse TV show, and a commercial is coming up. The last line of the chaper should read something like

"Oh my God... it can't be!!...." she cried, as she stared into the suddenly, chilligly revealed face of the stranger.

It aint Wanda, its Vivian. Where is Wanda, anyway?

Sorry Vivian. And Wanda. The melted butter discussion took me to a far away place, and I still don't know everyone here yet! Thanks for the correction Sigmund.

Your welcome Ms. Q.

Ok, kind of toward the topic, I recently attempted to read "A Thousand Years of Solitude" by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and again, referring to the final 4 bullets in VIVIAN'S article, as a reader it left me:

* chapter breaks, effective in keeping the reader going, flat, or just annoying?
Flat. Just plain flat.

* pacing, do you give your readers a break or are they sprinting, or did you leave them to wander somewhat aimlessly towards the end?
Left me confused and wandering aimlessly too disinterested to read far enough along to see where it tied the story together.

* exposition, mind dump or cleverly woven in throughout?
Seemed to be free flowing mind dump of disconnectedness

* Am I telling the story from the best point of view? Should it be multiple or not?
Couldn't read it far enough to determine, but from the start, I would have appreciated knowing the characters more intimately first, not later.

Ok - discuss.

So, do we have a name for a seried of comments that becomes a conversation between two Wombats? Like what Bethany and I were just doing? I guess it could be a Sithany.

I loved that book!! I sort of agree with what you say, but his writing is splendid, and I forgive him any problems with all that stuff.

Correction - it was A Hundred Years of Solitude that felt like a thousand when reading it. In all fairness, if he'd thrown in an artichoke or asparagus recipe, I might have loved it, though.

Sithany? LOL! That's great. And ok Simon, you can fully disagree with me on GGM's style. Maybe its just too high minded for me. I much preferred Feynman's "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" At least I could follow that, as a reader.

I hate to interrupt, so I'm just bookmarking. Carry on.

Ive got to run. Homework. Not mine. Interrupt away, Pat.

Gould is another good read. "Rocks of Ages". No artichokes were mentioned, though.

Hi Pat!

Ok, must run. Alton Brown is cooking okra - mmmm good eats.

And because my day did not already suck the pit end of the world, ABNA finally sent me the reviews of my entry. Because, yeah, I needed a couple of more dickweeds telling me I suck and shouldn't be writing. Although one said she gave me an A-. She hated the heroine. The other one despised the hero, called him "dislikable" (is that even a word?) and "wretched" and "evil".

I quit. I just plain quit.

Bethany, you are not the only one who could not get through "One Thousand Years of Solitude"...

And I even managed to send away Sy and Bethany. To the devil with it all.

PAT - there is no quitting in writing!

Crying is allowed, however.

Remember, this is an extremely subjective business. EXTREMELY! You have to balance out these kinds of responses with, oh, a request for a full from an agent!!! Who had read the exact same passages as these people!

And as a general FYI, I got traded to the project management office without a by-your-leave. They didn't even have enough respect to tell my boss in advance, just announced it as a fait accompli in his lead team meeting. And left it to him to tell me. My new boss(es) never even bothered to say a word today. I am deeply, deeply sad and blazingly, white hot furious.

And apparently, I suck as a writer as well.

Oh Pat, don't quit! Lisa's right. This business is so damn subjective. And brutal. Have I mentioned brutal lately? It's a wonder all of us don't quit. But we can't. So there.

To answer the question in the article, I obsessed a lot over POV for my current WIP. My first 1.5 novels, I used first-person. For my WIP, I'm going with third person. This was a big adjustment, but I'm glad I went this route.

Thank you, Lisa, but the reviews just enrage me. My favorite line? "I would be interested to keep reading to see if the author tells us what really happened to Lily and if Jessa succeeds in getting Holly away from this wretched man." Excuse me, moron? What do you think the other 350 fracking pages are for???

Dickweeds. Total dickweeds.

You're allowed to be furious, but not allowed to believe you suck as a writer. Maybe the reviewers suck at reviewing.

Yup. Dickweeds.

I won't repeat 'em in a public forum, but I've had some editorial responses that just left me...well, giggling, a couple of them, because they were so absurd.

Opinions are like a**h*les, ya know?

Re: the other thing...well, that just sucks, Pat.

So, here's my evening. I drive home to the blare of tornado sirens. I walk in the door to find a skull in my sink. On the bright side, it's not human. On the other hand, it still has flesh and eyeballs. I gather up the six-year-old and hide in the closet until the tornado system passes.

Now, an hour later, the weather is calm, and the skull is whisked away by my husband. See how quickly things change for the better?

Thirding the dickweed comment!

Pat, I have some advice, but here have a nice double bourbon. Go on...first, you are an amazing woman or the idiots wouldn't be fighting over you in the first place. Second, Lisa's right- one person's succor is another person's swill. Third, you need to develop a sense of ennui. The affectation of boredom can be very relaxing, try viewing your co-workers as crazed ants. Amuse in their wild gesticulations and nod every so often. Then have a drink.

Btw, the drinking part is very important. I've worked for crazed Persians and Israelis and once you can create the bubble, the distance- all the screaming and other inappropriate behavior becomes more amusing and less upsetting. Then again, I did quit my job and go back to school, so maybe you shouldn't listen to me.

All this food talk is making me hungry.

I just choked on my fried rice, Sherrie. Thanks!

Sherrie, what passes for normal in your word astonishes me. I can't top skulls in the sink and tornado sirens (I'm the sort who runs out into the yard at the first sound of tornado sirens and stares at the pretty swirling clouds, and prays to be whisked off to Oz, where I can kill me some witches and get me some pretty red shoes).

Commercial break - couldn't resist coming back to say, Pat, you DID NOT run me off! In fact, I'm kinda enjoying your rant. You rant very well. And here is the place to do that, just look at all the support you are getting from the Wombats. As for the not so glowing reviews, well, duh. Aren't opinions like something else that everyone has and not all of them smell great? You got a request for a full manuscript? How sweet! How sweet it will be when your book is picked up by them, and passed over by the ABNA people. Really, Lisa and Sherrie are only reminding you what you already know. Let this one go, and on to the next. If anything, you are resilient.

Who or what's skull Sherrie? And how did it get detached?

Pat S: To make a trifecta, you may get your ABNA reviews today. I got mine. I'll post them in full without comment (other than wondering how someone can ding me on plot and ending when they have Not Safe For Work (NSFW) even met all of the major characters yet, much less had the remotest NSFW) glimmering of an idea what the ending was going to be):

ABNA Expert Reviewer
This is going to be a good novel if the author continues on this path. I am definitely hooked. The switching of perspectives between the woman who appears to be a tribal member or some sort of primitve person unfamiliar with modern technology and the men with cellphones and paintball guns is a good idea. The prose is well written, easy to read and leaves the reader wanting more. Books that arouse questions are a good hook and in this we want to know who this woman is, what is she doing in the middle of a farm and what happened when Todd was downstairs causing a ruckus from the room upstairs? I most definitely have to know what happens.
ABNA Expert Reviewer
This excerpt gets fairly high marks for originality but the writing itself was sloppy. I felt as much annoyed reading it as interested in where the story was going, and frankly, it felt like the author wasn't exactly sure where it was headed either, rather, writing by the seat of his pants, trying out ideas and storylines along the way.
The stronger sections were those focused on Char trying to get away from a perceived enemy (Bruce, Ken, Rick, Toss), sections where her internal dialogue was recorded in depth, but there was no real conversation. It was action oriented, but the author was still able to get us into Char's skin. Unfortunately the section focused on the paintball players and their conversation seemed almost as if it was written by four different adolescent boys; there was no cohesion to the writer's voice. Admittedly each man reacted in a very different and highly personal manner to Char's crazy, apparently out-of-nowhere appearance, but the entire conversation as they struggled to make sense and deal was too disjointed and it was clumsily written.
I wanted the writer to go sit down, sketch an outline and rewrite the piece, keeping plot development, story arc, and most of all, the ending in mind.

I need some more skull details.

Pat S.: Sorry. I misread your post and didn't realize you had already gotten your ABNA reviews.

Holy crap, you guys zoom. I leave to eat dinner and the other thread is still viable and splat, gone and 67 posts into the next thread. Sheesh, at this rate, we'll be done by tomorrow...

Beaker, I LOVE artichokes! In California I used to get these giant ones, out here...well all I can say is, they're bigger than a golf ball...

okay, now to read Viv's article.

((((Pat)))) So sorry about the work situation. And the dickweeds.

About the job, you were talking about an opportunity at another company a while back. Maybe this is a good time to re-think your options. If not, at least it's good to remember you have options.

About the ABNA reviewers....um...dickweeds pretty much covers it, actually. Welcome to the roller coaster part of writing. Eventually your stomach will settle from it. I promise. Here's a Tums in the meantime.

Wow, Dale. Who pissed in reviewer 2's cheerios? As I've been saying all along, it was total luck of the draw on these reviewers. I mean look at the total opposition between those two reviews. Subjective. Completely subjective. I got lucky. I'm glad I didn't get dickweed reviewers and wish you both had been luckier in reviewer selection (it's obviously not your writing). So sorry to you both. Hugs to Dale and Pat. ((((((hugs))))))

Vivian, hubs, being both at home for a change and a long-time married man (in toto, between two wives, he has almost 36 years of matrimony under his belt), took me to dinner and poured bourbon in me. This was before I saw the reviews. So much for the bourbon.

But I adore your suggestion of cultivating ennui (though those familiar with my intense, take-no-prisoners style will be astonished). In fact, the first thing I told my boss was "what a relief it will be to finally be with a group of people where sitting around with one's thumb up one's rectum is actually the norm and richly rewarded." He threatened to kill me if I became one of "them". I'm actually being thrown in there to fix the mess, but it totally breaks a beautifully working process, so it's a net loss. But I will practice the amused glance.

My new bosses are a pair of useless, evil fratboys. Vicious, petty, and bosom buddies with the new regime. Which is why they got what they wanted. Me. In spite of everyone else's objections. I hate being the toy everyone is fighting over.

Oh well. They have no idea wombats have claws. They're about to find out.

But dang it, it took me 26 years to finally train a boss up the way I like them. Now I have to start all over.

This following extraneous mention of an aardvark is a bookymark. I almost said bookmarky, but refrained for an obvious reason.

Aardvark.

The skull was from something my husband is taxidermizing. To taxidermize an animal, you must remove the fur from the animal, including the head.

Now, my house smells funky. I'm a saint. A saint, I tell you.

Dale...you pretty much said it all...so sorry!

Sherrie, um, taxidermy? So this happens regularly?

Sherrie, it wasn't an aadvark skull, was it? Because that would just be too weird. LOL

More important than sink skulls, I'm so sorry about those dickweed reviews! Success will be the best revenge of all. Barring that, I could always borrow some taxidermy goods for special delivery, if you know what I mean.

Not as regularly as it used to be, Lisa. My husband's getting out of the taxidermy business because it's not terribly profitable. But now, I have all these good Halloween stories.

Dale, your reviewers are as psycho as mine. They liked it and didn't at the same time? For amusement, and because you were brave enough to post your reviews, here are both of mine (because, what the hell). I was most amused that reviewer one seems to think I'm a man. For general knowledge, the reviewers were not given the pitch, not told what category the book was in, and the category was not targeted to the reviewer's preferred genre (and not the first time I've been accused of writing like a man!)


ABNA Expert Reviewer (1)
I felt that the plot was somewhat weak. It never materialized, for me, anyways. It never reached out and grabbed hold of me. It just plodded along. Sure, it seemed believable, but, it simply never got me wanting more. I didn't feel as though I knew the girl any better by the end of the story - our protagonist - but, I did feel as though I came to know the captain quite well by story's end. The author did a nice job on his character development and, I presume, it will continue to evolve throughout the text. The excitement of the confrontation didn't come across as strongly as I'd imagine it could have. The theme is marvelous! I liked the style, overall, finding it smooth, plausible, not at all too far reaching. I like the idea and I think that it was quite original. Overall, I give this piece an "A-".


ABNA Expert Reviewer (2)
I guess the first thing that comes to mind when reading this for me is the fact that Tremayne is the name of Cinderella's evil stepmother. Dash seems to be her male counterpart. Lily seems to be Cinderella, although she has been murdered. I am not sure where Holly factors in other than Dash views her as a piece of property he is entitled to, which affirms the fact that this is very clearly a period piece.

You can feel for Jessa in terms of her terror but her inability to speak is perplexing. She does not offer any resistance when she is accosted by Dash nor does she even bother to try to explain that she is not Lily, even when the servants are pointing out that she isn't. It is like she has lost her voice in the presence of evil. Dash is incredibly dislikable from the moment he steps onto the scene. This much is quite clear. I would be interested to keep reading to see if the author tells us what really happened to Lily and if Jessa succeeds in getting Holly away from this wretched man.

An aardvark skull. Heh heh heh!!!

I think the evening experiences of matrimonial bliss as demonstrated by Pat and Sherrie span the spectrum. WOW!

Good man Pat. Glad to hear he was ready.

Sherrie...I'm thrilled for you? Was it looking at you or the ceiling when you spotted it? Just curious.

Pat - ugh!

Sherrie - ewwwww!

Wow, I'm thinking both of these reviewers need a special skull delivery.

Oh, I'm pretty sure it was lookin' at me! Did I mention I'm a saint?

The reviewers need a skull, only if it's bloodly and put on their pillow (aw gee, so sorry about grammy's satin embroidered pillowcases) so it's looking at them--evilly, when they turn on the light. Hmm, perhaps when they sit on the bed and reach for the lamp...either way works, screaming, heart in the jumping in the throat, did I mention screaming? Followed by running to be sure the cat's still alive....

It's all subjective. That doesn't make a crappy review any better to swallow. Pat, may I remind you where your MS is, as we speak. Honey, just do the boy dog thing and lift a leg...

No Whine, Just Champagne tonight. Hope you will stop by.

What Do Your Characters Want?

Dale, I happen to think that Char is a wonderful story. One I thoroughly enjoyed as did many or it wouldn't have gotten as high in the ratings as it did? And damn it, they 'boys' were acting in a juvenile game mode, hello? But I loved that part because it gave us some clues about these guys.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Pat, but doesn't Pocketful of Ashes start with your MC traveling in a horse and buggy? And your reviewer didn't get that it was a period piece at that point?! Kind of says it all, don't you think?

Dale and Pat, not only do your two reviewers contradict each other, they contradict themselves. Nothing either of your reviewers said makes much sense to me. Certainly, none of them helpful. Throw them out. Seriously.

Loved this article:

That's alot QUETIONS Viv!? Hmmmm?

Sia, you made me spit my third Manhatten on the keyboard! This is why I come here. To feel better. And you should see the ABNA forums. Holy cow! Folks are posting reviews. One of the reviewers was clearly an outright bigot, some had personal axes to grind, some were totally ungrammatical (this was a reviewer who scorned someone for their grammar!), it's just a mess. I am going to put these in my "screw you" file and laugh about it. And you're right, Sia. At least if I get rejected by editor and/or agent, I will know I've been rejected by a pro, instead of someone who prolly spent the day reviewing toasters and toe-exercisers (yes, there are such things!)

Jill, it's worse than that. The opening line is "Cornwall, May, 1837". LOL!

Alright, I know it's not very nice to say, but here it is.

This, I KNOW from reading the excerpts: The entries by Pat and Dale (and I'm sure Jill too) were noticeably better than some of those entries that advanced. I just don't get it.

I know this doesn't help, but in my heart, I believe you all deserved to move forward. And you're in fine company. I reviewed some entries on CreateSpace that totally intimidated me in their quality. And some of those entries are missing from the top 500 too.

Like Lisa said, this business is so subjective, but I know that can't make it any easier to swallow at the moment.

*handing Pat, Bounty, the quicker picker upper. And let top off that Manhattan, for you. Bourbon is much too good to waste, :-)

And Dale, the fact that it sounds like four writers is a testament to the fact that you've given the guys four distinct voices! Oy! I will never, ever enter another one of these contests. Now I can say I did it, and I'm never doing it again! I can't imagine how much worse it was in the FC contests, to have dozens and dozens of these kinds of reviews!

Now. I have a troublesome chapter in the current WIP. I love it, but it's just taking up space. Perhaps by deleting it, I can take a step toward breaking that writing dam. Later, my dears, and thank you for cheering me up at the end of yet another day on Planet Bizzarro.

I was thinking the exact same thing as Pat , Dale, about your four characters having distinct voices. That's what writers are supposed to do. Well, at least what GOOD writers are supposed to do.

Dickweeds.