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by Kathryn E.
Member since:
January 15, 2006

Socialism, Capitalism, Communism - at Spartan's request

March 22, 2009 03:09 AM EDT (Updated: March 22, 2009 04:01 AM EDT)
views: 358 | comments: 136

Spartan asked that I write an article about having lived in a Socialist Country.  I have also visited a Communist country, and have lived in the good ole' US of A most of my life.

 

So I will take this a step further and offer some comparisons between a socialistic government, a communist government and our capitalistic government.


First, let's take Canada.

 

I lived in Canada for 9 years, 8 in Montreal, 1 in Toronto. Canada is a democracy with a Parliamentary system of government, rather similar to our Congressional system, but as you know, the terms for Prime Minister are not set but are based on how popular the PM is: - he or she can be voted out by referendum if he or she screws up once too often.

That facet of the Parliamentary system is a great boon because truly great leaders can be in for a long term, the better to effect positive change, whereas truly ineffective or simply awful leaders can be out on their keister before you can say George W. Bush.

I don't actually call Canada a Socialist country (nor do I call Britain or Sweden or Germany Socialist countries) but they are Democracies with a substantial social welfare safety net.

Many people in the US call this type of Government a Socialist government, so I don't want to argue about semantics.

As you know, Canada has nationalized health care.

 

The Canadians on Gather may rush here to tell me how inadequate the health program is, and yes, they are right.  I do think the health care was likely better in the 70s in Canada.

However, people in the USA are left to die; these are the elderly, the minorities, the poor, non-minorities, the very ill, those whose jobs and health insurance was terminated and who no longer have health insurance and thus no health care; these numbers are growing larger by the minute.

Many industries in Canada are 'nationalized.' Trains, banks, many industries.

 


Banks make a profit, believe me.


The banking crisis in the US is not nearly so deep in Canada; nor were the bank profits so high in Canada. Canada is fairly immune to SOME of the effects the US feels, because it is more financially stable.

True, the CDN$ was higher then the USD$ just a year ago, and has fallen to about 74.77 US cents, but so far the CDN$ has not sunk to the low of about 66 cents it had for many years.

Homes in Montreal are much less expensive than homes in the North East and Midwest of the US. Homes in Toronto are considerably more expensive than Montreal, but still do not reach the extremely high cost of New York City, Boston or San Francisco. I think Los Angeles and Chicago are still higher than homes in Toronto.


True, people in Canada have to pay about 40 percent of their income in tax. Perhaps more.  What do they get?



If you are a  student or a person with very little money, you do not have to contribute any income to the Quebec health care system, called Medicare.

But you can still benefit from it. If you have a cold, pneumonia, are pregnant, have bacterial infections, cancer, heart disease, or need surgery, yes, you will be seen by doctors and nurses.


What about college?

McGill University is one of the top 25 universities in the world. It is considered the Harvard of Canada. Its quality is very high (I went there), and my parents taught in the Faculty of Medicine there. It is difficult for non-Canadians to get into McGill, because the average GPA for foreigners (including US) is about 3.8.

Tuition for McGill (non-Canadian) is about $10,000 and that does not include room and board and expenses. That would probably be another $10,000. My figures are about 3 years old, so the cost is likely higher. However, smart Americans and overseas students see the advantage of going to McGill rather than many US Ivy League schools, which are higher than 40K.


But how can the Quebecois and Ontarians afford college?

A Quebec resident pays about $2,000 - $3,000 per year; a non-Quebec, Canadian resident pays half what overseas residents pay, so that would be about $5,000 for tuition and another $5,000 room/board/expenses. Or just rent a cheap apartment. Here in the US that would be about the cost of Community College, a 2 year program.

There are many other fine universities in Canada, such as the University of Toronto; all Canadian Universities are roughly the same price, which spells A-F-F-O-R-D-A-B-L-E for Canadians and the same for overseas and US students.

Cigarettes and alcohol are expensive, because they are heavily taxed via the SIN tax provision.

Gas is by the liter and it is a lot more expensive than in the US. But people in Montreal, for example, rarely drive a car in the city, so many urban dwellers don't even own a car. Like in Manhattan.


Canadians have the same personal and political freedoms that we Yanks have.

The major difference is they can actually afford to go to college, go to the doctor and to buy a home.

My niece and nephew are still in college, yet they bought a small home a few years ago. They are also paying for their tuition from their salary, working full time and going to school part time.


How many of us know 22 year olds who have bought their own home while still in college?

That, my dear readers, is called a social welfare safety net.

And THAT is what a so-called Socialistic system can do for you. MAKE YOUR LIFE AFFORDABLE.

Canada also has unemployment insurance, disability, welfare and such, and no, they are not easy to get, and no, they are not perfect. And yes, people do fall through the cracks in Canada, but far fewer people DO fall through the cracks. Oh and Gay Marriage is legal in Canada, and Abortion has been legal for awhile, though it was not legal in the 70s. There is no Capital Punishment.

From Fareed Zakaria's article in Newsweek last month, these facts:

Canadian home ownership: 68.4 percent; US - 68 percent.

Canadian banking system - healthiest in the world; USA - 40th, Britain, 44th.

Life expectancy, Canada  - 81 years; USA - 78 years.

The cost of the Canadian health care system is cheaper than ours in the US by far (accounting for 9.7 percent of GDP, versus 15.2 percent here), and yet does better on all major indexes.




Communism

My stepmother came to the US in 1960 on a post-doctoral fellowship (she was an MD but doing research with my father as a PhD student in Pharmacology); she defected from Communist Poland and married my father in 1963.

Her defection meant that she could not return to Poland. She had committed a criminal act. By 1971, she still could not return, but my stepbrother was able to return to the still-Communist Poland.  It would be some years yet before my stepmother was able to return, though she was able to return in the late 70s and early 80s.  Bribery must have had something to do with it.

Mikhail Barishnikov defected from Russia in 1975 and landed in Toronto (at the home of a Globe and Mail reporter, I was told when I worked at the Globe and Mail), then came to the US. When his movie White Nights was made in 1986, it was filmed in Finland because Barishnikov would have been imprisoned in Siberia had he tried to return to Russia at that time.

 

I visited Poland for one month in 1971, when it was a Communist Soviet Satellite in the then Eastern Europe. I had been brought up to believe that the Soviets did a good job in Poland, so I was shocked to discover huge concrete block apartment buildings all over Warsaw, left over from the rapid building in the 1950s, after the massive Nazi destruction of Warsaw during WWII.

The middle class apartment buildings looked exactly like US HUD Housing Projects.  Things are much, much better now, nearly 20 years after the fall of Communism, in Poland, but in 1971, things were far from perfect.

My stepmother routinely sent money so her mother could get her own apartment and her own telephone. This process took years and a lot of money. The lot of money spells B-U-Y- the O-F-F-I-C-I-A-L-S.


Corruption is a way of life in a totalitarian state.


Hoarding and scarcity was omnipresent. When toilet paper came into the stores, it was immediately snatched up, because people were afraid they would not have any. So, it ran out immediately.

Apartments had 5 locks on the doors, to prevent break ins.

The telephone lines were extremely poor in Poland in 1971. It was impossible to hear unless you yelled as you were talking on the phone.

Even in 1990, we could not get a line out of Poland from the Polish operator, to call Boston.

In Stare Miastro, the Old Town in Warsaw, a beautiful area that was completely rebuilt right after WWII - due to compulsory civil service from every able bodied young person for a 2 year period, but there were long lines for treats such as Iced Kawa (Iced Coffee) lines such as 45 minutes. Lines were everywhere. Believe me when I tell you I practically starved waiting in line for food and drink.

In the south of Poland, in the lovely Tatras mountains where the horizon stretches to the former Czechoslovakia, meals in restaurants were sparse.

I ate Steak Tartare (raw, chopped steak with raw egg) because that was the only thing on the menu.

I was pretty fussy still about eating in 1971 and would only eat Stroganoff or Goulash, neither of which the restaurants had.

Gypsies followed us everywhere.  We wore American jeans. We took the train to Krakow, first class, which cost us only a few dollars, (a cabin), but which was unaffordable to most Poles.

Most Poles stood crammed like sardines along the outside of the cabin, as I had done earlier in the month when traveling from Vienna to Warsaw, because I did not realize that second class was such a hellish way to travel.

So-called Lemonade was merely dirty pink water, with a touch of sugar, a minute amount of sugar. My face was blackened from the coal dirt from Katowice, the coal mining region, as the train lumbered along slowly.

In 1971, many Poles resembled the stereotype of the Russian peasant - heavy set, wearing a large babushka, (colorful headscarf), and having a poor complexion that rarely saw fresh air, fresh fruits or exercise.

Military guards were everywhere. Nobody spoke a negative word about the Government in public. Nobody spoke a negative word about the government on the telephone, because 'you never knew who might be listening.'

My postcard from Vienna never arrived, because postcards were given the last priority. Mail to and from Poland to the US was routinely censored. Medicine was limited, and yes, my stepmother had to send Ritalin for her nephew who suffered attentional deficits due to infantile meningitis.


Communism is a totalitarian government, a government of total oppression of the many by a few.


People had no personal or political freedom. We saw how the local Communist leaders lived - in large mansions with large, expensive cars. Most Poles took the ramshackle tramway. Pollution was horrible and water was not safe for Americans to drink.

My father's rangefinder camera caused quite a stir at the Czech-Polish border. The Polish border guards came in and took my camera. Fortunately, there was a young lady also from Montreal who spoke Polish. The guards did not want to let in my camera, as cameras were strictly forbidden. Even in 1990, guards were still around Krakow and Warsaw and prevented me from taking pictures.

In 1971, this young lady disappeared into the back with the guards who had confiscated my camera. I am certain she had to pay them a considerable sum, as bribery was the currency of totalitarianism. I had been well-schooled in that by my stepmother. But thinking back on the plight of the young  Polish Canadian from Montreal, I worry that things even worse than her giving them a sum of $USD, could have befallen her. She was pretty angry when she returned to the train cabin.

 

That, my dear readers, is Communism.

 

And what we have here in the US is a Capitalist democracy.

But the free enterprise system upon which many tenets of this country are founded, has been let loose of the necessary checks and balances that keep corruption and greed from taking over.


Well ,greed took over.

The New York Times this morning reports that

 

Lowered Expectations for the Bulls’ Return

By PAUL J. LIM (NYT)

Investors should not count on the market recouping all its losses for at least several years.

INTERNATIONAL / EUROPE
Worries Voiced Over Economy

By BLOOMBERG NEWS (NYT)

The president of the World Bank said the global economy is on pace to shrink by 1 percent to 2 percent this year.

 

The people who complain the loudest about the paying taxes to the US government so we all can benefit are ALSO people WHO NEED THESE BENEFITS.


Any of you who complain about social benefits  -  such as Social Security Disability, Unemployment, Social Security Retirement, lack of adequate health care.

Well, if we did not have these, many more of would simply DIE in the STREET.


Happy Spring.

 

Enjoy your personal and political freedoms, because that is all we have left.


"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Janis Joplin.

Expand Tags: socialism, communism, capitalism
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Comments: 136 ( 1 removed by Kathryn E. )

Svetlana Goryacheva Mar 22, 2009, 3:32am EDT
Kathryn, dear - your description of the communist Poland is actually very close to what he have had in the USSR - with the only difference that there are much more locks on the doors now than it was then - maybe because a few could boast a property worthy of stealing. Good article! :-)

Hugs and blessings - S.
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Ariel Storm Mar 22, 2009, 3:35am EDT
Very interesting reading Kathryn. I enjoyed your insights into the various forms of government and how they influence society.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:38am EDT
Sveta, yes, that is unfortunate - I was actually aware of that - and have spoken to people who grew up in Russia under the old Soviet system and live there now under freedom, but the violence is quite something.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:40am EDT
China is different now than the Soviet government was in Russia or in the Soviet satellites, but yeah, Sveta, I am certain Russia was very similar to Poland, as they all were.

I am aware, too, that the Hungarian Uprising in 1959 happened because people were becoming 'too free' and the Soviets took over; in 1969, the same thing happened in then-Czechoslovakia; I had cousins who had to escape Czechoslovakia.
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Savo Heleta Mar 22, 2009, 3:47am EDT
Great post and really interesting facts about Canada! You may be interested in this article by Fareed Zakaria in which he explains how Canada is doing much better than the US during this global financial mess: http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/020709.html
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:50am EDT
Yes, I read it, Savo. And have spoken with my sister and stepbrother who are still there. I was amazed when I was in Montreal last December.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:55am EDT
I will include some facts from the Newsweek article in my article.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 3:56am EDT
Interesting perspective! I like the fact that you actually visited these different governments and aren't just relying on spin. You make Canada sound pretty enticing. I am curious if you currently live in the U.S.. Are there more people emigrating Canada to the U.S. or vice versa? It is my understanding that the former is true. I like the U.S. because of the freedom to excel and reach my full potential. I never found college expensive, because I simply skipped it like Steve Jobs did and became successful. I don't know that I could do that in Canada. Most of the cool stuff that was invented was invented in the U.S. What have Canadians invented? What do they have the freedom to invent and create? I love it when the government gets out of my way so I can go from poor to middle class to wealthy. That's why I love capitalism and the U.S.A! Being from a poor family I prefered having opportunities to succeed, not handouts and foodstamps. My mother and I never collected a dime of welfare and never needed to, because in the U.S. we had a choice: we could succeed and grow, unlike most foreigners, possibly Canadians as well. I think this the main reason more people move to the U.S. notwithstanding its imperfections. Freedom is the most valuble asset any nation can have.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 4:06am EDT
Gary, if you look at my profile, you will see where I live.

In the past, even the recent past, Canadians often came to the US to work for American companies. But the Newsweek article states that that trend is slowing, and that American companies are installing Canadian offices.

As to the rest of your comment, that is a wonderful facet of freedom and capitalism, very true. But that social mobility upward only exists during prosperous times.

I doubt your mother lived during the Depression.

But get back to me in a couple of years to see if you still feel as positive about being poor in the US without government help.

In the US, only about 7 percent of the lower middle class has EVER risen to the upper middle class.

A substantial number rise from lower middle class to middle class, but all of that is much more difficult even now.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 4:10am EDT
Also Gary, when you are 85 you will be happy to have government help. Check back with me in your old age.
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Brian T. Mar 22, 2009, 4:24am EDT
Great info, some folks don't know socialism from communism from capitalism. Very good descriptions. Many folks just toss out the terms with out understanding what they mean.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 4:28am EDT
Brian, exactly - and it always gets my goat.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 4:33am EDT
"As to the rest of your comment, that is a wonderful facet of freedom and capitalism, very true. But that social mobility upward only exists during prosperous times. "

I started my business in 1982 during the worst economic recession in my lifetime. Inflation was double digits, unemployment was double digits, interest rates were double digits. The government did help me by giving me a business licence for only $35. The worst of times then very quickly became the best of times. Recessions would not exist if more people took the initiative like I did. Foreigners come to the U.S. with nothing but the shirts on their backs and become rich within a couple of years. I figured if they can do it (not even knowing English), then why not me? Why not you? Why not someone on goverment assistence?

"I doubt your mother lived during the Depression."

My grandparents did. My mother did not just appear out of foam like Athena. LOL!

"But get back to me in a couple of years to see if you still feel as positive about being poor in the US without government help."

I am nolonger poor thanks to the lack of government interference over the last 27 years. My house is paid for. I am not filthy rich but I am comfertable. As long as I am free to pull my own weight, I will continue to do so. The only time I might need government help is if I am stripped of that freedom like so many foreigners.

"In the US, only about 7 percent of the lower middle class has EVER risen to the upper middle class."

LOL! Even if that is true, we have the richest poor people on the planet! I know folks on welfare who own two cars, a computer, cell phone, VCR, and a lot of other goodies that middle class people in other countries dream about. The price of protection is poverty. There is no free lunch. You pay one way or another. You might have free healthcare but you won't have enough food and toilet paper in some countries. I believe you visited one: Poland?

"A substantial number rise from lower middle class to middle class, but all of that is much more difficult even now. "

Why? It can't be the socialism, could it? LOL! You see, when you take the governent's cheese like a good little mouse, they can make more rules for you. You have less freedom to grow. Government, by and large, is a restricting force.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 4:42am EDT
Gary, talk to me in two years. 1982 was not as bad as what we will be seeing. My parents grew up in the Depression.

I am a student of statistics for a long time now.

We are not the richest poor people on the planet. Far from it.

Check back again with me in the next few years, because things will be getting worse for all of us.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 4:42am EDT
"Also Gary, when you are 85 you will be happy to have government help. Check back with me in your old age."

You'll still be around? I hope that when I am 85 more competition will be allowed in the medical profession, so medical costs will fall. Ask yourself why you don't need gov help to buy a computer that works better than supercomputers did 30 years ago? Market competition is the answer. Better quality and quantiy for a lower price is achievable in any commodity if competition is allowed. Gov help is only necessary when there is a monopoly sanctioned by the government. It is a vicious circle. If the gov. would quit screwing with the economy, we would never need its help to recover. That depression you spoke of earlier was caused by the Fed and the credit bubble it built in the 1920's. When I'm 85 I hope people wise up. If not, I'll move to Alaska and live off the land like my ancestors. LOL! Beats the hell out of living in the cuckoo's nest with nurse Rachett.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 4:43am EDT
Oh and I left home at 19 and have supported myself every single day since then. Unemployment is already double digits.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 4:45am EDT
Gary, talk to me in two years. 1982 was not as bad as what we will be seeing. My parents grew up in the Depression. I am a student of statistics for a long time now. We are not the richest poor people on the planet. Far from it. Check back again with me in the next few years, because things will be getting worse for all of us.

Based on what? A few toxic bank loans? The Fed Chairman Bernake announced last Friday that the economy will recover by year end. I think he is also a student of statistics and economics.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 4:49am EDT
Gary, read the links in my article in the NYT. In my article. Your information is a few days old. And old news is dead in the water. Fish is wrapped with yesterday's newspaper, because yesterday's newspaper is useless.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 4:52am EDT
"Oh and I left home at 19 and have supported myself every single day since then."

With or without government help?

"Unemployment is already double digits."

Where? Not in the U.S. See:
http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp

U.S. unemployment rate is 8.10%. Expected to go to 9%, then to drop off according to the Fed.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 4:56am EDT
"Gary, read the links in my article in the NYT. In my article. Your information is a few days old. And old news is dead in the water. Fish is wrapped with yesterday's newspaper, because yesterday's newspaper is useless."

Feel free to provide the link to the very biased NYT article. I prefer the hard data straight from the Fed. I will admit I trust gov. data over NYT data. Especially when it involves gov. data. LOL! Last Friday, by the way, was the last trading day for the equity markets, so the news is not old.
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David K. Mar 22, 2009, 4:57am EDT
Thanks for the perspective.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 5:01am EDT
Gary, the links are IN my article in BLUE, near the bottom.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 5:03am EDT
I am done arguing with you, Gary.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 5:10am EDT
"I am done arguing with you, Gary."

The truth has that effect on people. LOL!
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 5:19am EDT
Kathryn, I have looked at your links and the articles are written by the same hacks who can never predict the future, only the past and present. When the market was at its peak, did they predict a recession? Nope! Will they predict the next economic upturn? Nope! Katherine, if you want to impress your readers, show us that these hacks have a better than zero batting average.
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William Dotani Mar 22, 2009, 5:20am EDT
The bottom line is how much you can get and do with the income you have and it seems Canada has in truth a much higher standard of living.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 5:21am EDT
William, exactly. You are not that far from the border, and it is easy to see the difference.
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("Gather Site Street-Walking Cheetah")Dorian T. Mar 22, 2009, 5:23am EDT
All I know is Capitalism just takes a little time. Leave it be. Kneel down to method actors like Reagan and their handlers. Anything is better than admitting we've been had, no? Who wants to admit thy've been sucking rooster all along?
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 5:26am EDT
The bottom line is how much you can get and do with the income you have and it seems Canada has in truth a much higher standard of living."

Assuming of course your income will be the same and you won't be unemployed because your boss's business was taxed out of existence to pay for those goodies you have your eye on. So William, are you moving to Canada?
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TINA s. Mar 22, 2009, 5:36am EDT
your well informed of the political issue through history.good description of communist countries I visit one myself
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Purrrrrrrrrrr~Genki dashite~Nantoka naru-yo! S. Mar 22, 2009, 5:52am EDT
Excellent, Kathryn, and I can very much relate having grown up in a Communist country myself. It was such a mystery to us children, how the old folk whisper their religion into the air on Cristmass night out in the fields. Churches had been either destroyed or the doors and windows cut with chains and sealed.
Our odes to Lenin each morning before school (which started at 6am and was a 6 day ordeal), our salutes to the Russian soilders in their beautiful wool coats down to their ankles as they walked amongst the people. To us as young ones they were mysterious and beautiful, but the grown flinched everytime they passed them with their heads lowered.
Your article is bringing back so many memories.
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Jeff H. Mar 22, 2009, 6:44am EDT
I have relatives in Norway and will admit that they love their socialism. They can afford it because they are the only European country that exports oil. I really don't think you can compare America to any other country because our politicians are probably the most shaddy characters in the world that can't be trusted with the power they have let alone the extra power they would receive under more socialism like national health care. Look what politicians did to the banking industry with social engineered GSE loans and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Look at Social Security. Medicare. Medicaid. You really think they can handle National health Care? Please.....
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Carol Roach Mar 22, 2009, 7:39am EDT
Yes kathryn health care was better here in canada in the 70's when Joey Smallwood built the system from scratch, and Trudeau, will always be my hero,

I wouldn't trade my universal heath care for anything in the world, not everything is free as americans think

medication is not free

and neither is dental, unless you are on welfare or disability,

I just wanted to say that our banking system is different it is not privately owned like in the states, so canadian funds keep them in operation.

in quebec we have two income taxes to pay, they don't have that universally across canada, I don't what it is like in the states.

and mcgill accepts many foreign students now, the highest gpa is not as stringent, in fact they say that is it the foreign students that are keeping the doors open now a days because like all quebec universities govenment cuts have hurt mcgill.

I am an alumnus from both Concordia, and McGill Universities.

even concordia is up there on the school of great universities

medical is law and medicine and psychology,

concordia and mcgill are both one of the 7 top universities in the world for neuropsychology,

concordia shines in fine arts

and Journalism as well

the also have an excellent history department which is better than mcgill's


great research in psychology is coming out of both universities

but when you get to research work like that many universities around the world work together on the research projects.

University of British columbia is another well known word sought after university,

Dartmouth in Nova Scotia is the McGill of the East, - excellent reputation

university of ottawa is the best in canada for counselling

and of course we cannot forget the french universities,

depending on their specialisation,

university of montreal, veterinary sciences, medicine and dentisty, also criminology

UQAM - Universite du quebec a montreal - teaching, history, politics/law
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 7:45am EDT
Thank you , Carol.
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JustMe ~I'm happy to be~ Mar 22, 2009, 8:26am EDT
Great article, Kathryn, but to be honest, I don't think we have any real freedoms.
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Nancy * ♥ Self-Proclaimed Site Tigger ♥ Mar 22, 2009, 8:41am EDT
I started to read all the comments but it made my head spin. Howeve, I did like your post and personally I wish our government was more like Canada and England.
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 9:50am EDT
Gather's Dullard wrote:
"they are the only European country that exports oil."

And that would be Totally FALSE and Misleading!

Thank you SO much for writing this Kathryn!!! I doubt it will change many minds, since many people choose to absorb that which only feed their preconceived ideas, but you did an excellent job of explaining here!

The following is something I posted for someone else here on Gather who doesn't understand that there are different forms of "Socialism"....

"Universal health care is health care coverage that is extended to all eligible residents of a governmental region and often covers medical, dental, and mental health care. These programs vary in their structure and funding mechanisms. Typically, most costs are met via single-payer health care system or national health insurance, or else by compulsory regulated pluralist insurance (public, private or mutual) meeting certain regulated standards. Universal health care is implemented in most wealthy, industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States. It is also provided in many developing countries and is the trend worldwide."--from Wikipedia

We have GOT to convince people that Universal Health Care "should" be a Basic Human Right!
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Liz [site-Raven] Please critique my poetry. Mar 22, 2009, 10:05am EDT
Kathryn, you have truly written a fine article. Unfortunately, those for whom it is meant will not really get it. The rabid cries of I want my freedoms and we are becoming socialists do not have a clue about what matters in life. None seem to understand that with freedom comes grave responsibility [that they do not wish to meet]. We live in a country in which the Gonifs of this world have been aloud to take all from its citizens. The George Bushes of this world just took Capitalism to its extreme and destroyed this nation. Those who see this as Capitalism at work ought read their history books. They would learn that when Capitalism goes awry and Imperialism takes over and Dynasties reign, the door for revolution opens up to communism and then dictatorship. Mr Obama has an unbelievably hard job ahead of him along with all of my prayers and support. And believe you me I will be one of those whose taxes will go up. They always do. The USA no longer has a middle class f any size whatsoever.

And in terms of those within the banking system who have stolen so much as in persons like AIG execs? I believe in old fashioned citizen vigilantism! Let them have anything doled out to them by the citizen. And it could well happen. Private gated communities keep just so much out.
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Kimberly Ripley Mar 22, 2009, 10:09am EDT
Fascinating and informative....and made so much more interesting from your personal experiences!
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 10:11am EDT
Liz is quite correct here. Basically, we have turned the USA into Mexico, where a small few live in gated communities and the rest are left to scrabble for the leftovers!
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Ron Hall Mar 22, 2009, 10:34am EDT
This is an informational delight, K, and the logical choice for feature in Gather Essentials Writing Sunday.
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Eric T. Mar 22, 2009, 10:48am EDT
GREAT article! Thanks for the perspective.
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Gretchen Lee Bourquin Mar 22, 2009, 11:19am EDT
Well done, Kathryn. My Canada experience is limited to 2 day trips, but what I did notice is how CLEAN it was compared to cities in th US. We asked for the tired, poor huddled masses -- we can help them when they need it
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 11:30am EDT
JM, well, here are some freedoms we do have

We can speak out verbally or in writing against the President and against the Government without fear of political retribution (such as torture or jail); this is so basic to our freedoms here in the USA;

We cannot threaten the President or anyone, but we can say we do not like the Pres or the Government.

We can walk the streets without fear of police presence, except in areas that are known to have violence.

We are free to develop any business we like. That is a key freedom. Even other free countries of the world may not have this freedom to the extent that we have, and by that I mean, the American spirit of "Let's Do it" that my ESL students notice is prevalent here. Just because something was NEVER done in the USA does not mean that it CANNOT be done. Some other countries may not have actual laws against trying something NEW, but other countries MAY be socially hesitant about trying something NEW such as a NEW business OR just a NEW IDEA.

Our willingness to change is one of the key things that ACTUALLY makes this country great.

Those are a few of the freedoms we do have, but we take them for granted unless we actually go to countries where people are oppressed.

We EVEN have the right to refuse compulsory military service, based on Conscientious Objection. That is not true for many countries with compulsory military service.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 11:33am EDT
Jim - GOOD luck with that. Not so easy after the late 60s of American draft dodger influx into Canada and American Professors influx into Canada. I loved Canada for most of my 9 years - I went to the US for two years in the middle of that - Chicago - but I decided to return because I found in my personal experience that Canada did not quite have (at that time) QUITE as much of the American spirit of 'Let's Do It" that we have here in the US.

I had asked a hypothetical question of the Ontario Health Insurance Plan. They refused to answer it, based on the fact that they did not offer what I was asking. I found subtle resistence to new ideas.

Canada DID stay with Mother England, you know, so there are subtle differences.

I had forgotten about our distinctly American tendency to try new things until ALL my students remarked on it.

And NOT just my students from Russia or China or Israel, but also those from Brazil and Germany.
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Larry M. Mar 22, 2009, 11:34am EDT
Well done, Katheryn. You have been there and done that. The perspective of those with actual experience with the various "isms" are the perspectives we should pay the most attention to, not the talking heads.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 11:35am EDT
we can also develop any personal interest we like, that is a non-business - the same idea applies to things that may be non-business.

Other countries are a bit more resistant to change.

The people who came here and who still come here arrive on our shores because they want to CHANGE their life - more freedom, more opportunity, etc.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 11:39am EDT
Thank you, Ron.

Thank you Spartan, and Liz.

I DO agree with you both.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 11:39am EDT
Back later.
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Gary (aka: William Pinn) J. Mar 22, 2009, 1:23pm EDT
Just to satisfy my curiousity, I did some research on home prices here in the States vs. Canada. It appears housing prices are about the same. See links below:
http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm
http://www.livingin-canada.com/house-prices-canada.html
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Ken K. Mar 22, 2009, 1:28pm EDT
Kathryn.. I loved this article & want to go back to dissect for my own interest.. You are right with your info.. However.. Living across the bridge from Canada, I am amazed at the number of well heeled Canadians who come here for medical treatment & college too. Why?
As for the Poles.. As you know, I've gone back to my roots. I'm not hard core Pole at all, I'm an American & proud. That said, Poles I speak to, who attend the same church, struggled to come here in the 70's & 80's. They couldn't wait to get out. They speak so fondly of their home land but never entertain the thought of moving back. Their children however, attend Polish universities ( Cheaply, I might add) but also return upon graduation. One thing about Canada.. They will never have the object poverty seen here in the states. For that, I'm ashamed ..
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Larry H. Mar 22, 2009, 2:01pm EDT
THANKS FOR SHARING
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 2:37pm EDT
Ken, well well-heeled Canadians DO come here for treatment and university because we can offer something they might not have - and non-Americans all over the world - both blue collar and professionals love to come to the US because we often offer opportunities they might not have in their own country.

Yes, Canada does not have the extreme poverty we have. Our social safety net is not as wide as it could be.
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JustMe ~I'm happy to be~ Mar 22, 2009, 2:48pm EDT
I have a neighbor who is Canadian, who plays "both sides of the fence", so to speak. He lives here and enjoys the benefits of America, but plans on using his family's address in Canada so his daughter can attend school there.

The "system" gets played......
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 2:55pm EDT
Wow, I wonder if that will work....They might check tax records, since that is what residency is based on.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:06pm EDT
Gary, there was nothing to specify in the first link that any of those prices were Canadian. Besides, US home prices HAVE come down, drastically. The point is people can live a middle class lifestyle in Canada MUCH more easily than in the US.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:16pm EDT
Gary, in 2008, the average house price in Montreal was $252K. You cannot get ANYTHING in Boston or NY or San Francisco for that. The price for Toronto was about $355K or so. You could have something REALLY small in those cities - cities that are equivalent to Toronto. Vancouver is the most expensive because it has the best climate, 40 and rainy.

Montreal home prices are not declining as much as those in the US. Same with other Canadian cities.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:23pm EDT
Thank you all...
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 3:31pm EDT
thank you for the Feature, Ron H.
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Jeff H. Mar 22, 2009, 5:37pm EDT
"""And that would be Totally FALSE and Misleading!"""

Spartan you idiot. Care to prove me wrong or are you once again going to plug your ears and go lalalalalalala.
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Jeff H. Mar 22, 2009, 5:47pm EDT
"The country is richly endowed with natural resources including petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals. Large reserves of petroleum and natural gas were discovered in the 1960s, which led to a continuing boom in the economy. Norway has obtained one of the highest standards of living in the world in part by having a large amount of natural resources compared to the size of the population. The income from natural resources includes a significant contribution from petroleum production and the substantial and well-managed income related to this sector."

Export revenues from oil and gas have risen to 45% of total exports and constitute more than 20% of the GDP.[29] Only Russia and OPEC member Saudi Arabia export more oil than Norway, which is not an OPEC member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway


Spartan, care to put your foot in your mouth again like the dullard you are?
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 6:27pm EDT
JEFF NO NAME CALLING ON MY ARTICLE. AMEND YOUR WORDS OR I WILL HAVE TO REMOVE YOUR COMMENT.
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 7:00pm EDT
Kathryn.....since Canada isn't a socialist country, and you said that you have lived in a socialist country, which of the current 5 socialist countries have you lived in?

1.China ?

2.Laos ?

3 . Vietnam ?

4 .North Korea ?

5. Cuba ?

I know that you stated that you didn't claim that Canada is a socialist country, but you did say that you once lived in a socialist country...so which one of the above current socialist countries did you live in. Or better yet..which former socialist country did you live in?

You see....the pro-socialism advocates here on Gather are trying to convince everyone that Canada and the UK are socialist countries when in fact they are not socialist countries.
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Magi the magical poet is riding the wind again Mar 22, 2009, 7:05pm EDT
I found the article and comment stream fascinating, Kathryn.

Australia is similar to Canada in many ways - we have a health safety net so that all have access to doctors, dentists and other health professionals, hospitals, and medications. Housing, however, is tight, but not in the mess that the USA is in. Higher education is accessible but more expensive than in Canada. Our banking system is not unabashed capitalism - it is regulated and thus Oz has not suffered nearly as much as the USA.

In short, the ethos here is not "F**k you, Jack, I'm okay!" but a fair go for everyone - and not just for those with there snouts firmly in the trough.
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La Case Sparrow Mar 22, 2009, 7:36pm EDT
no name calling?
fine
i won't say anything to or about jeff
(not saying it)
(still not)

(god, it's killing me)
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 7:37pm EDT
Timothy, I said I don't consider Canada to be socialist but many do, but I don't subscribe to that way of thinking.


And the other countries are obviously Communist.
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Laree M. Mar 22, 2009, 7:39pm EDT
Interesting article and debate.
Maybe Boston, SF, NY you couldn't get anything for $252k, but many places in the country, even a year ago, had pretty good choices in the quarter of a milion dollar range.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Janis Joplin.

Janis had a big hit with that line. Kris Kristofferson actually wrote it and at least a dozen, mostly country artists, have recorded it.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 7:42pm EDT
Hi cousin Laree, thanks for chiming in. What can you get in SLC for quarter mil? 10 years ago - well, 15 you could get a nice house in my town, but then they doubled, but now nobody can sell any of them.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 7:47pm EDT
Magi, I loved your comment. Thank you.

I still miss the social policies of Canada, but I like the spirit of Americanism better.
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 8:03pm EDT
"Tim, I think we need to think in degrees here, Canada nd the UK are more socialist than we are, albeit, you can say they are mixed economies."

Agreed Charles....but pro-socialism advocates are pushing Canada and the UK as socialist countries when in fact they are not. The only countries that define themselves as socialist in their constitutions are the 5 that I listed.

Some folks also have it all mixed up. Spartan recently posted an article where it sounded like he was advocating for full blown socialism when all that he was calling for was universal healthcare reform. Ween people start shouting ' what's wrong with socialism ' that gets people frightened that they are advocating for full blown socialism...when in fact they aren't.
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 8:07pm EDT
"Timothy, I said I don't consider Canada to be socialist but many do, but I don't subscribe to that way of thinking."

Kathryn...the folks that consider Canada to be socialist are either pro-socialism advocates or people who don't have a clue what socialism is....and both of those are issues that mislead other people who are reading these threads.

Canada isn't a socialist country folks.
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Laree M. Mar 22, 2009, 8:09pm EDT
You know my dad's old neighborhood? There are homes in that area in the mid to high 200's now; they would have been high 200's to low 300's a year or more ago. Most are 4-6 bedrooms 2-3 baths, double garages, nice neighborhood, but not extravagant. Mine is smaller, with fewer rooms and a carport rather than a garage. It hasn't had the same upgrades and remodels that most around here have had since the '50's when the area was developed.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 8:45pm EDT
Laree, yes I do know your dad's neighborhood. Mid high 200, wow, you cannot even get a condo in my town for less than 300, or a year ago, one couldn't. 4-6 bedrooms were 500-1million not long ago.

A 3 bedroom starter Cape 15 years ago was 250, 20 years ago was 125, 25 years ago was 90. A couple of years ago the same 3 BR starter Cape was 600- 750, the same as a two family.


I am talking my town, which is more expensive than many but there are a dozen that are considerably more expensive than mine.

To get to the prices that you are talking about, one would have to go to the other end of the state - any end, just about 100 miles away from the center of town.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 8:47pm EDT
Timothy, no, the people who consider Canada to be socialst are often those who confuse socialism with communism.

Canada is a democracy with a social safety net.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 8:50pm EDT
Jeff, after Spartan sees these comments, (which he has not, I do not think yet), if you have not amended your words,

I will remove your comments.
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Laree M. Mar 22, 2009, 8:58pm EDT
Kathryn, here, like most of the country, prices went up and up and up and down.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 8:59pm EDT
yeah, L, and I don't have a lot of hope for a quick recovery, do you?
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 9:12pm EDT
Let Jeffy leave his comments, Kathryn. He is a prime example of someone who does not think before he comments. As for Norway being the ONLY European country to export oil??? I think British Petroleum would take great exception to Jeffy's remark. The following is from the AP dated April of 2008... and strange...I don't see Norway anywhere here....BP PLC and Royal Dutch Shell PLC, Europe's two biggest oil producers, posted forecast-busting first-quarter earnings on Tuesday thanks to record crude oil prices that are expected to bolster profits across the industry.
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 9:30pm EDT
"Timothy, no, the people who consider Canada to be socialst are often those who confuse socialism with communism."

Oh my goodness.......you don't get it either. I have never heard anyone refer to Canada as a communist country.

By the way Kathryn.......which socialist country, either past or present, have you lived in?
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 9:34pm EDT
I think I'm going to go "lalalalala" since you have your head parked SO far up your...ahhh never mind! ROTFLMAO
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 9:42pm EDT
yea, timothy, lalal lalal
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 9:47pm EDT
"Timothy, no, the people who consider Canada to be socialst are often those who confuse socialism with communism."

From WIKI.....Current list of communist countries.....

1. China

2. Laos

3. North Korea

4. Cuba

5. Vietnam

Now isn't that the same list of countries that currently define themselves as socialist?
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 9:50pm EDT
"yea, timothy, lalal lalal "

Yeah........lalal lalal. Looks like all of that is on you. You folks need to dome some research before you post. All you have to do is type either socialism or communism into a google search...it's really that simple.

By the way Kathryn, which socialist country have you lived in?
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 9:52pm EDT
"dome some "

Do some.....oooops!
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 9:54pm EDT
Dim Sum...Tim? ;-)
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 9:57pm EDT
Yeah Spartan.....
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 10:02pm EDT
My comment was NOT at you, Tim....it was for Gather's Knuckle Dragger....LOL
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 10:15pm EDT
If THOSE countries define THEMSELVES as socialist they are mistaken, because they are communist. I have a student from Shanghai who is a member of the Communist Party and believe me, China would NEVEr define itself as Socialist, according to him. We were speaking about that point this week.
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Debby O. Mar 22, 2009, 10:18pm EDT
Interesting
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Timothy V. Mar 22, 2009, 10:28pm EDT
OK Kathryn...I'll repeat this again....

List of current socialist countries....

1. China

2. Laos.

3. North Korea

4. Vietnam

5. Cuba

List of current communist countries...

1. China

2. Laos

3. North Korea

4. Vietnam

5. Cuba

Those lists came from 2 seperate Google searches..one was a google search on socialist countries..and the other was a google search on communist countries. The same 5 countries showed up on both lists from the 2 seperate google searches.

But you know what, if you choose to take the word of a Chinese student who has possibly been brainwashed, then go ahead and knock yourself out.

By the way, which socialist country have you lived in?
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Jeff H. Mar 22, 2009, 10:30pm EDT
""""As for Norway being the ONLY European country to export oil??? I think British Petroleum would take great exception to Jeffy's remark""""

Spartan how old are you? BP does NOT export oil from England They are one of the biggest energy companies in the world that is headquartered in London and they are not even owned by Great Britain. You can't possibly be taken serious in terms of an intellectual discussion because you don't seem to ever know what you are talking about.

"Shut Up!" frog boy explains "lalalalala-I-DON'T-BELIEVE-YOU-lalalalala"

Kathryn, It's O.K. for Spartan to call me names when he has his head up his @$$ but it is inappropriate for me to reply in kind? If you really want to do Spartan a favor, delete his bone-headed inaccurate comments, before everybody sees them, and send him a private e-mail telling him that he was wrong.....again.......

Try proven me wrong again Spartan but do yourself a favor and ask somebody with some intellectual competence to check some facts for you first. Or you can change your mind and ask Kathryn to delete my comments as you have been soundly discredited.
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Spartan * Mar 22, 2009, 10:36pm EDT
No, numbnuts, they extract it from the North Sea just as Royal Dutch Shell does. Once again...you will go to any length to display your stupidity, Jeffy. There are none so blind as those who are convinced they have the truth when they don't.
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Kathryn E. Mar 22, 2009, 10:37pm EDT
TIMOTHY - from the WIKI page that lists these countries. DID YOU READ THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries

from the main article, list of communist countries.


List of socialist countries
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This article or section has multiple issues. Please help improve the article or discuss these issues on the talk page.

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This article's factual accuracy is disputed. Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. (March 2008)
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