Spartan asked that I write an article about having lived in a Socialist Country. I have also visited a Communist country, and have lived in the good ole' US of A most of my life.
So I will take this a step further and offer some comparisons between a socialistic government, a communist government and our capitalistic government.
First, let's take Canada.
I lived in Canada for 9 years, 8 in Montreal, 1 in Toronto. Canada is a democracy with a Parliamentary system of government, rather similar to our Congressional system, but as you know, the terms for Prime Minister are not set but are based on how popular the PM is: - he or she can be voted out by referendum if he or she screws up once too often.
That facet of the Parliamentary system is a great boon because truly great leaders can be in for a long term, the better to effect positive change, whereas truly ineffective or simply awful leaders can be out on their keister before you can say George W. Bush.
I don't actually call Canada a Socialist country (nor do I call Britain or Sweden or Germany Socialist countries) but they are Democracies with a substantial social welfare safety net.
Many people in the US call this type of Government a Socialist government, so I don't want to argue about semantics.
As you know, Canada has nationalized health care.
The Canadians on Gather may rush here to tell me how inadequate the health program is, and yes, they are right. I do think the health care was likely better in the 70s in Canada.
However, people in the USA are left to die; these are the elderly, the minorities, the poor, non-minorities, the very ill, those whose jobs and health insurance was terminated and who no longer have health insurance and thus no health care; these numbers are growing larger by the minute.
Many industries in Canada are 'nationalized.' Trains, banks, many industries.
Banks make a profit, believe me.
The banking crisis in the US is not nearly so deep in Canada; nor were the bank profits so high in Canada. Canada is fairly immune to SOME of the effects the US feels, because it is more financially stable.
True, the CDN$ was higher then the USD$ just a year ago, and has fallen to about 74.77 US cents, but so far the CDN$ has not sunk to the low of about 66 cents it had for many years.
Homes in Montreal are much less expensive than homes in the North East and Midwest of the US. Homes in Toronto are considerably more expensive than Montreal, but still do not reach the extremely high cost of New York City, Boston or San Francisco. I think Los Angeles and Chicago are still higher than homes in Toronto.
True, people in Canada have to pay about 40 percent of their income in tax. Perhaps more. What do they get?
If you are a student or a person with very little money, you do not have to contribute any income to the Quebec health care system, called Medicare.
But you can still benefit from it. If you have a cold, pneumonia, are pregnant, have bacterial infections, cancer, heart disease, or need surgery, yes, you will be seen by doctors and nurses.
What about college?
McGill University is one of the top 25 universities in the world. It is considered the Harvard of Canada. Its quality is very high (I went there), and my parents taught in the Faculty of Medicine there. It is difficult for non-Canadians to get into McGill, because the average GPA for foreigners (including US) is about 3.8.
Tuition for McGill (non-Canadian) is about $10,000 and that does not include room and board and expenses. That would probably be another $10,000. My figures are about 3 years old, so the cost is likely higher. However, smart Americans and overseas students see the advantage of going to McGill rather than many US Ivy League schools, which are higher than 40K.
But how can the Quebecois and Ontarians afford college?
A Quebec resident pays about $2,000 - $3,000 per year; a non-Quebec, Canadian resident pays half what overseas residents pay, so that would be about $5,000 for tuition and another $5,000 room/board/expenses. Or just rent a cheap apartment. Here in the US that would be about the cost of Community College, a 2 year program.
There are many other fine universities in Canada, such as the University of Toronto; all Canadian Universities are roughly the same price, which spells A-F-F-O-R-D-A-B-L-E for Canadians and the same for overseas and US students.
Cigarettes and alcohol are expensive, because they are heavily taxed via the SIN tax provision.
Gas is by the liter and it is a lot more expensive than in the US. But people in Montreal, for example, rarely drive a car in the city, so many urban dwellers don't even own a car. Like in Manhattan.
Canadians have the same personal and political freedoms that we Yanks have.
The major difference is they can actually afford to go to college, go to the doctor and to buy a home.
My niece and nephew are still in college, yet they bought a small home a few years ago. They are also paying for their tuition from their salary, working full time and going to school part time.
How many of us know 22 year olds who have bought their own home while still in college?
That, my dear readers, is called a social welfare safety net.
And THAT is what a so-called Socialistic system can do for you. MAKE YOUR LIFE AFFORDABLE.
Canada also has unemployment insurance, disability, welfare and such, and no, they are not easy to get, and no, they are not perfect. And yes, people do fall through the cracks in Canada, but far fewer people DO fall through the cracks. Oh and Gay Marriage is legal in Canada, and Abortion has been legal for awhile, though it was not legal in the 70s. There is no Capital Punishment.
From Fareed Zakaria's article in Newsweek last month, these facts:
Canadian home ownership: 68.4 percent; US - 68 percent.
Canadian banking system - healthiest in the world; USA - 40th, Britain, 44th.
Life expectancy, Canada - 81 years; USA - 78 years.
The cost of the Canadian health care system is cheaper than ours in the US by far (accounting for 9.7 percent of GDP, versus 15.2 percent here), and yet does better on all major indexes.
Communism
My stepmother came to the US in 1960 on a post-doctoral fellowship (she was an MD but doing research with my father as a PhD student in Pharmacology); she defected from Communist Poland and married my father in 1963.
Her defection meant that she could not return to Poland. She had committed a criminal act. By 1971, she still could not return, but my stepbrother was able to return to the still-Communist Poland. It would be some years yet before my stepmother was able to return, though she was able to return in the late 70s and early 80s. Bribery must have had something to do with it.
Mikhail Barishnikov defected from Russia in 1975 and landed in Toronto (at the home of a Globe and Mail reporter, I was told when I worked at the Globe and Mail), then came to the US. When his movie White Nights was made in 1986, it was filmed in Finland because Barishnikov would have been imprisoned in Siberia had he tried to return to Russia at that time.
I visited Poland for one month in 1971, when it was a Communist Soviet Satellite in the then Eastern Europe. I had been brought up to believe that the Soviets did a good job in Poland, so I was shocked to discover huge concrete block apartment buildings all over Warsaw, left over from the rapid building in the 1950s, after the massive Nazi destruction of Warsaw during WWII.
The middle class apartment buildings looked exactly like US HUD Housing Projects. Things are much, much better now, nearly 20 years after the fall of Communism, in Poland, but in 1971, things were far from perfect.
My stepmother routinely sent money so her mother could get her own apartment and her own telephone. This process took years and a lot of money. The lot of money spells B-U-Y- the O-F-F-I-C-I-A-L-S.
Corruption is a way of life in a totalitarian state.
Hoarding and scarcity was omnipresent. When toilet paper came into the stores, it was immediately snatched up, because people were afraid they would not have any. So, it ran out immediately.
Apartments had 5 locks on the doors, to prevent break ins.
The telephone lines were extremely poor in Poland in 1971. It was impossible to hear unless you yelled as you were talking on the phone.
Even in 1990, we could not get a line out of Poland from the Polish operator, to call Boston.
In Stare Miastro, the Old Town in Warsaw, a beautiful area that was completely rebuilt right after WWII - due to compulsory civil service from every able bodied young person for a 2 year period, but there were long lines for treats such as Iced Kawa (Iced Coffee) lines such as 45 minutes. Lines were everywhere. Believe me when I tell you I practically starved waiting in line for food and drink.
In the south of Poland, in the lovely Tatras mountains where the horizon stretches to the former Czechoslovakia, meals in restaurants were sparse.
I ate Steak Tartare (raw, chopped steak with raw egg) because that was the only thing on the menu.
I was pretty fussy still about eating in 1971 and would only eat Stroganoff or Goulash, neither of which the restaurants had.
Gypsies followed us everywhere. We wore American jeans. We took the train to Krakow, first class, which cost us only a few dollars, (a cabin), but which was unaffordable to most Poles.
Most Poles stood crammed like sardines along the outside of the cabin, as I had done earlier in the month when traveling from Vienna to Warsaw, because I did not realize that second class was such a hellish way to travel.
So-called Lemonade was merely dirty pink water, with a touch of sugar, a minute amount of sugar. My face was blackened from the coal dirt from Katowice, the coal mining region, as the train lumbered along slowly.
In 1971, many Poles resembled the stereotype of the Russian peasant - heavy set, wearing a large babushka, (colorful headscarf), and having a poor complexion that rarely saw fresh air, fresh fruits or exercise.
Military guards were everywhere. Nobody spoke a negative word about the Government in public. Nobody spoke a negative word about the government on the telephone, because 'you never knew who might be listening.'
My postcard from Vienna never arrived, because postcards were given the last priority. Mail to and from Poland to the US was routinely censored. Medicine was limited, and yes, my stepmother had to send Ritalin for her nephew who suffered attentional deficits due to infantile meningitis.
Communism is a totalitarian government, a government of total oppression of the many by a few.
People had no personal or political freedom. We saw how the local Communist leaders lived - in large mansions with large, expensive cars. Most Poles took the ramshackle tramway. Pollution was horrible and water was not safe for Americans to drink.
My father's rangefinder camera caused quite a stir at the Czech-Polish border. The Polish border guards came in and took my camera. Fortunately, there was a young lady also from Montreal who spoke Polish. The guards did not want to let in my camera, as cameras were strictly forbidden. Even in 1990, guards were still around Krakow and Warsaw and prevented me from taking pictures.
In 1971, this young lady disappeared into the back with the guards who had confiscated my camera. I am certain she had to pay them a considerable sum, as bribery was the currency of totalitarianism. I had been well-schooled in that by my stepmother. But thinking back on the plight of the young Polish Canadian from Montreal, I worry that things even worse than her giving them a sum of $USD, could have befallen her. She was pretty angry when she returned to the train cabin.
That, my dear readers, is Communism.
And what we have here in the US is a Capitalist democracy.
But the free enterprise system upon which many tenets of this country are founded, has been let loose of the necessary checks and balances that keep corruption and greed from taking over.
Well ,greed took over.
The New York Times this morning reports that
Investors should not count on the market recouping all its losses for at least several years.
The president of the World Bank said the global economy is on pace to shrink by 1 percent to 2 percent this year.
The people who complain the loudest about the paying taxes to the US government so we all can benefit are ALSO people WHO NEED THESE BENEFITS.
Any of you who complain about social benefits - such as Social Security Disability, Unemployment, Social Security Retirement, lack of adequate health care.
Well, if we did not have these, many more of would simply DIE in the STREET.
Happy Spring.
Enjoy your personal and political freedoms, because that is all we have left.
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Janis Joplin.


Comments: 136 ( 1 removed by Kathryn E. )
Hugs and blessings - S.
I am aware, too, that the Hungarian Uprising in 1959 happened because people were becoming 'too free' and the Soviets took over; in 1969, the same thing happened in then-Czechoslovakia; I had cousins who had to escape Czechoslovakia.
In the past, even the recent past, Canadians often came to the US to work for American companies. But the Newsweek article states that that trend is slowing, and that American companies are installing Canadian offices.
As to the rest of your comment, that is a wonderful facet of freedom and capitalism, very true. But that social mobility upward only exists during prosperous times.
I doubt your mother lived during the Depression.
But get back to me in a couple of years to see if you still feel as positive about being poor in the US without government help.
In the US, only about 7 percent of the lower middle class has EVER risen to the upper middle class.
A substantial number rise from lower middle class to middle class, but all of that is much more difficult even now.
I started my business in 1982 during the worst economic recession in my lifetime. Inflation was double digits, unemployment was double digits, interest rates were double digits. The government did help me by giving me a business licence for only $35. The worst of times then very quickly became the best of times. Recessions would not exist if more people took the initiative like I did. Foreigners come to the U.S. with nothing but the shirts on their backs and become rich within a couple of years. I figured if they can do it (not even knowing English), then why not me? Why not you? Why not someone on goverment assistence?
"I doubt your mother lived during the Depression."
My grandparents did. My mother did not just appear out of foam like Athena. LOL!
"But get back to me in a couple of years to see if you still feel as positive about being poor in the US without government help."
I am nolonger poor thanks to the lack of government interference over the last 27 years. My house is paid for. I am not filthy rich but I am comfertable. As long as I am free to pull my own weight, I will continue to do so. The only time I might need government help is if I am stripped of that freedom like so many foreigners.
"In the US, only about 7 percent of the lower middle class has EVER risen to the upper middle class."
LOL! Even if that is true, we have the richest poor people on the planet! I know folks on welfare who own two cars, a computer, cell phone, VCR, and a lot of other goodies that middle class people in other countries dream about. The price of protection is poverty. There is no free lunch. You pay one way or another. You might have free healthcare but you won't have enough food and toilet paper in some countries. I believe you visited one: Poland?
"A substantial number rise from lower middle class to middle class, but all of that is much more difficult even now. "
Why? It can't be the socialism, could it? LOL! You see, when you take the governent's cheese like a good little mouse, they can make more rules for you. You have less freedom to grow. Government, by and large, is a restricting force.
I am a student of statistics for a long time now.
We are not the richest poor people on the planet. Far from it.
Check back again with me in the next few years, because things will be getting worse for all of us.
You'll still be around? I hope that when I am 85 more competition will be allowed in the medical profession, so medical costs will fall. Ask yourself why you don't need gov help to buy a computer that works better than supercomputers did 30 years ago? Market competition is the answer. Better quality and quantiy for a lower price is achievable in any commodity if competition is allowed. Gov help is only necessary when there is a monopoly sanctioned by the government. It is a vicious circle. If the gov. would quit screwing with the economy, we would never need its help to recover. That depression you spoke of earlier was caused by the Fed and the credit bubble it built in the 1920's. When I'm 85 I hope people wise up. If not, I'll move to Alaska and live off the land like my ancestors. LOL! Beats the hell out of living in the cuckoo's nest with nurse Rachett.
Based on what? A few toxic bank loans? The Fed Chairman Bernake announced last Friday that the economy will recover by year end. I think he is also a student of statistics and economics.
With or without government help?
"Unemployment is already double digits."
Where? Not in the U.S. See:
http://www.miseryindex.us/urbymonth.asp
U.S. unemployment rate is 8.10%. Expected to go to 9%, then to drop off according to the Fed.
Feel free to provide the link to the very biased NYT article. I prefer the hard data straight from the Fed. I will admit I trust gov. data over NYT data. Especially when it involves gov. data. LOL! Last Friday, by the way, was the last trading day for the equity markets, so the news is not old.
The truth has that effect on people. LOL!
Assuming of course your income will be the same and you won't be unemployed because your boss's business was taxed out of existence to pay for those goodies you have your eye on. So William, are you moving to Canada?
Our odes to Lenin each morning before school (which started at 6am and was a 6 day ordeal), our salutes to the Russian soilders in their beautiful wool coats down to their ankles as they walked amongst the people. To us as young ones they were mysterious and beautiful, but the grown flinched everytime they passed them with their heads lowered.
Your article is bringing back so many memories.
I wouldn't trade my universal heath care for anything in the world, not everything is free as americans think
medication is not free
and neither is dental, unless you are on welfare or disability,
I just wanted to say that our banking system is different it is not privately owned like in the states, so canadian funds keep them in operation.
in quebec we have two income taxes to pay, they don't have that universally across canada, I don't what it is like in the states.
and mcgill accepts many foreign students now, the highest gpa is not as stringent, in fact they say that is it the foreign students that are keeping the doors open now a days because like all quebec universities govenment cuts have hurt mcgill.
I am an alumnus from both Concordia, and McGill Universities.
even concordia is up there on the school of great universities
medical is law and medicine and psychology,
concordia and mcgill are both one of the 7 top universities in the world for neuropsychology,
concordia shines in fine arts
and Journalism as well
the also have an excellent history department which is better than mcgill's
great research in psychology is coming out of both universities
but when you get to research work like that many universities around the world work together on the research projects.
University of British columbia is another well known word sought after university,
Dartmouth in Nova Scotia is the McGill of the East, - excellent reputation
university of ottawa is the best in canada for counselling
and of course we cannot forget the french universities,
depending on their specialisation,
university of montreal, veterinary sciences, medicine and dentisty, also criminology
UQAM - Universite du quebec a montreal - teaching, history, politics/law
"they are the only European country that exports oil."
And that would be Totally FALSE and Misleading!
Thank you SO much for writing this Kathryn!!! I doubt it will change many minds, since many people choose to absorb that which only feed their preconceived ideas, but you did an excellent job of explaining here!
The following is something I posted for someone else here on Gather who doesn't understand that there are different forms of "Socialism"....
"Universal health care is health care coverage that is extended to all eligible residents of a governmental region and often covers medical, dental, and mental health care. These programs vary in their structure and funding mechanisms. Typically, most costs are met via single-payer health care system or national health insurance, or else by compulsory regulated pluralist insurance (public, private or mutual) meeting certain regulated standards. Universal health care is implemented in most wealthy, industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States. It is also provided in many developing countries and is the trend worldwide."--from Wikipedia
We have GOT to convince people that Universal Health Care "should" be a Basic Human Right!
And in terms of those within the banking system who have stolen so much as in persons like AIG execs? I believe in old fashioned citizen vigilantism! Let them have anything doled out to them by the citizen. And it could well happen. Private gated communities keep just so much out.
We can speak out verbally or in writing against the President and against the Government without fear of political retribution (such as torture or jail); this is so basic to our freedoms here in the USA;
We cannot threaten the President or anyone, but we can say we do not like the Pres or the Government.
We can walk the streets without fear of police presence, except in areas that are known to have violence.
We are free to develop any business we like. That is a key freedom. Even other free countries of the world may not have this freedom to the extent that we have, and by that I mean, the American spirit of "Let's Do it" that my ESL students notice is prevalent here. Just because something was NEVER done in the USA does not mean that it CANNOT be done. Some other countries may not have actual laws against trying something NEW, but other countries MAY be socially hesitant about trying something NEW such as a NEW business OR just a NEW IDEA.
Our willingness to change is one of the key things that ACTUALLY makes this country great.
Those are a few of the freedoms we do have, but we take them for granted unless we actually go to countries where people are oppressed.
We EVEN have the right to refuse compulsory military service, based on Conscientious Objection. That is not true for many countries with compulsory military service.
I had asked a hypothetical question of the Ontario Health Insurance Plan. They refused to answer it, based on the fact that they did not offer what I was asking. I found subtle resistence to new ideas.
Canada DID stay with Mother England, you know, so there are subtle differences.
I had forgotten about our distinctly American tendency to try new things until ALL my students remarked on it.
And NOT just my students from Russia or China or Israel, but also those from Brazil and Germany.
Other countries are a bit more resistant to change.
The people who came here and who still come here arrive on our shores because they want to CHANGE their life - more freedom, more opportunity, etc.
Thank you Spartan, and Liz.
I DO agree with you both.
http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm
http://www.livingin-canada.com/house-prices-canada.html
As for the Poles.. As you know, I've gone back to my roots. I'm not hard core Pole at all, I'm an American & proud. That said, Poles I speak to, who attend the same church, struggled to come here in the 70's & 80's. They couldn't wait to get out. They speak so fondly of their home land but never entertain the thought of moving back. Their children however, attend Polish universities ( Cheaply, I might add) but also return upon graduation. One thing about Canada.. They will never have the object poverty seen here in the states. For that, I'm ashamed ..
Yes, Canada does not have the extreme poverty we have. Our social safety net is not as wide as it could be.
The "system" gets played......
Montreal home prices are not declining as much as those in the US. Same with other Canadian cities.
Spartan you idiot. Care to prove me wrong or are you once again going to plug your ears and go lalalalalalala.
Export revenues from oil and gas have risen to 45% of total exports and constitute more than 20% of the GDP.[29] Only Russia and OPEC member Saudi Arabia export more oil than Norway, which is not an OPEC member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway
Spartan, care to put your foot in your mouth again like the dullard you are?
1.China ?
2.Laos ?
3 . Vietnam ?
4 .North Korea ?
5. Cuba ?
I know that you stated that you didn't claim that Canada is a socialist country, but you did say that you once lived in a socialist country...so which one of the above current socialist countries did you live in. Or better yet..which former socialist country did you live in?
You see....the pro-socialism advocates here on Gather are trying to convince everyone that Canada and the UK are socialist countries when in fact they are not socialist countries.
Australia is similar to Canada in many ways - we have a health safety net so that all have access to doctors, dentists and other health professionals, hospitals, and medications. Housing, however, is tight, but not in the mess that the USA is in. Higher education is accessible but more expensive than in Canada. Our banking system is not unabashed capitalism - it is regulated and thus Oz has not suffered nearly as much as the USA.
In short, the ethos here is not "F**k you, Jack, I'm okay!" but a fair go for everyone - and not just for those with there snouts firmly in the trough.
fine
i won't say anything to or about jeff
(not saying it)
(still not)
(god, it's killing me)
And the other countries are obviously Communist.
Maybe Boston, SF, NY you couldn't get anything for $252k, but many places in the country, even a year ago, had pretty good choices in the quarter of a milion dollar range.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Janis Joplin.
Janis had a big hit with that line. Kris Kristofferson actually wrote it and at least a dozen, mostly country artists, have recorded it.
I still miss the social policies of Canada, but I like the spirit of Americanism better.
Agreed Charles....but pro-socialism advocates are pushing Canada and the UK as socialist countries when in fact they are not. The only countries that define themselves as socialist in their constitutions are the 5 that I listed.
Some folks also have it all mixed up. Spartan recently posted an article where it sounded like he was advocating for full blown socialism when all that he was calling for was universal healthcare reform. Ween people start shouting ' what's wrong with socialism ' that gets people frightened that they are advocating for full blown socialism...when in fact they aren't.
Kathryn...the folks that consider Canada to be socialist are either pro-socialism advocates or people who don't have a clue what socialism is....and both of those are issues that mislead other people who are reading these threads.
Canada isn't a socialist country folks.
A 3 bedroom starter Cape 15 years ago was 250, 20 years ago was 125, 25 years ago was 90. A couple of years ago the same 3 BR starter Cape was 600- 750, the same as a two family.
I am talking my town, which is more expensive than many but there are a dozen that are considerably more expensive than mine.
To get to the prices that you are talking about, one would have to go to the other end of the state - any end, just about 100 miles away from the center of town.
Canada is a democracy with a social safety net.
I will remove your comments.
Oh my goodness.......you don't get it either. I have never heard anyone refer to Canada as a communist country.
By the way Kathryn.......which socialist country, either past or present, have you lived in?
From WIKI.....Current list of communist countries.....
1. China
2. Laos
3. North Korea
4. Cuba
5. Vietnam
Now isn't that the same list of countries that currently define themselves as socialist?
Yeah........lalal lalal. Looks like all of that is on you. You folks need to dome some research before you post. All you have to do is type either socialism or communism into a google search...it's really that simple.
By the way Kathryn, which socialist country have you lived in?
Do some.....oooops!
List of current socialist countries....
1. China
2. Laos.
3. North Korea
4. Vietnam
5. Cuba
List of current communist countries...
1. China
2. Laos
3. North Korea
4. Vietnam
5. Cuba
Those lists came from 2 seperate Google searches..one was a google search on socialist countries..and the other was a google search on communist countries. The same 5 countries showed up on both lists from the 2 seperate google searches.
But you know what, if you choose to take the word of a Chinese student who has possibly been brainwashed, then go ahead and knock yourself out.
By the way, which socialist country have you lived in?
Spartan how old are you? BP does NOT export oil from England They are one of the biggest energy companies in the world that is headquartered in London and they are not even owned by Great Britain. You can't possibly be taken serious in terms of an intellectual discussion because you don't seem to ever know what you are talking about.
"Shut Up!" frog boy explains "lalalalala-I-DON'T-BELIEVE-YOU-lalalalala"
Kathryn, It's O.K. for Spartan to call me names when he has his head up his @$$ but it is inappropriate for me to reply in kind? If you really want to do Spartan a favor, delete his bone-headed inaccurate comments, before everybody sees them, and send him a private e-mail telling him that he was wrong.....again.......
Try proven me wrong again Spartan but do yourself a favor and ask somebody with some intellectual competence to check some facts for you first. Or you can change your mind and ask Kathryn to delete my comments as you have been soundly discredited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries
from the main article, list of communist countries.
List of socialist countries
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