With the drug war heating up in Mexico and about 7,000 lives lost in little more than a year due to the violence, a lot of the recent focus is on where the Mexican drug cartels are getting their weapons. Mexican authorities say that about 90% of weapons smuggled into Mexico come from the United States and the ATF says that more than 7,700 guns sold in the U.S. were traced to Mexico last year.
Some reports state that the Mexicans come to the U.S. and seek out U.S. Citizens otherwise known as ' straw men ' and pay them to purchase weapons such as the AR-15 and the AK-47, both of which are semi-auto versions of fully-automatic military weapons, and then the Mexicans smuggle them back across the border. No doubt that some of these weapons wind up in the hands of drug cartels. However, that doesn't tell the complete story.
Officer Cesar Quitana of Juarez, Mexico is armed with an M-16 assault rifle. The M-16 is a fully-automatic rifle. In an interview, Quitana stated concerning the M-16 " I think most of us feel scared just to bring this with us, but this is what we use to defend ourselves " My question concerning Quantina's statement would be why is this man and his brethren would be afraid to face semi-automatic AR-15's and AK-47's with fully-automatic M-16's? Read below.
Weapons seized from drug cartels by the Mexican authorities include rocket propelled grenades, hand grenades, light anti-tank rockets and ' Stinger ' surface to air missiles. Also, one recent seizure in Arizona yielded 42 weapons and hundreds of rounds of 50 caliber bullets belted to be fed into a machine gun style weapon. Of course one of the weapons that is winding up in the hands of the drug cartels is the Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. However to the best of my knowledge, the Barrett is a semi-automatic rifle and it doesn't have the capability of accepting belted ammunition. However the Browning 50 caliber heavy machine gun ( fully automatic ) does accept belted ammunition. Some Mexican authorities have reported seeing 50 caliber heavy machine guns in the hands of the drug cartels.
One of the arguments being used by the American anti-gun lobby is that the weapons being used by the Mexican drug cartels that are being purchased by the ' straw men ' are purchased at gun shows and gun shops in states along the U.S./Mexican border. Of course this will explain semi-automatic weapons such as the AR-15, the AK-47 and the Barrett that are winding up in the hands of the drug cartels. But then again we have the rocket propelled grenades, hand grenades, fragmentation grenades, light anti-tank rockets, ' Stinger' surface to air missiles and 50 caliber heavy machine guns. I've been to a heck of a lot of gun shows and gun shops in my life, however I have never seen any of these weapons for sale in any of them. According to my knowledge, any U.S. Citizen who wishes to own a fully-automatic weapon must be a Class III Firearms Dealer. And even at that, I don't think that Class III dealers can legally own surface to air missiles or grenades, but I suppose that I could be wrong.
There has been some suggestion that the Assault Weapons ban that expired in 2004 should be reinstated. But would that keep any of these weapons out of the hands of the Mexican drug cartels?
So just where are the cartels getting these weapons from?
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Comments: 47
(Speculative Conversation: "No, Captain Rico, we can't nuke the site from orbit, the armaments factory is surrounded by tenements filled with innocent children and infants. No, we can't trust the local policia to support any attempt to assault the place on the ground -- even money that at least a third of the officers are on the gun baron's payroll. No, we can't ask the local army to take out the factory, either -- they have at least as many restrictions as our own when it comes to dealing with internal non-secessionist threats AND it is practically guaranteed that a senior officer in the necessary chain of command is on Senor Gunmaker's payroll. That leaves BlackOps, hitting the supply line, or hijacking their output for our own uses further south -- and the current administration is not going to approve any of the three.")
Pax...Kihe, old used wargamer
The government is so corrupt in Mexico it is hard to pinpoint where it is all coming from but that President Calderon of Mexico is not innocent believe me.
When you find out where the weapons are coming from, why don't you let us know so that those of us who are running short of weapons can run out and get them from this unknown source would ya?
Esther...I can probably hook you up with a semi-auto AR-15, but stinger missiles and 50 cal heavy machine guns...I can't help you there.
Great post!
Great post! "
I don't know...well..yes I do. Just keep your smiling face showing up on my threads anytime!
Though some weapons may come from the US, the prices here are way to high, the risk greater, and must be amazingly small in comparison to what is coming from So. America. Brazil itself has a huge arms manufacturing capability, and imports to the US itself small arms for Taurus and the like. Look for corruption in the armed forces of a several Countries down that way, and the answer is there. You can't buy most of what they use here anyway.
Shutting down gun shows wouldn't make a dent on weapons for these guys. It would be like popping a pimple on a dinosaur....
I remember reading a report the other day. Here are two paragraphs and the link:
"The gun laws in the United States allow the sale of multiple military-style rifles to American citizens without reporting the sales to the government, and the Mexicans search relatively few cars and trucks going south across their border.
What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers — more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses — makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task."
LINK
"Smugglers routinely enlist Americans with clean criminal records to buy two or three rifles at a time, often from different shops, then transport them across the border in cars and trucks, often secreting them in door panels or under the hood, law enforcement officials here say. Some of the smuggled weapons are also bought from private individuals at gun shows, and the law requires no notification of the authorities in those cases. "
First of all, gun sales have to clear an FBI background check. Also, I know about and have owned AK-47's and AR-15's and I can assure you that neither of those guns will fit into door panels or under the hoods of vehicles.
Plus you can't buy stinger surface to air missiles, anti-tank rockets or 50 caliber heavy machine guns at gun stores or gun shops.
I think that two things need to happen. I think that drugs [yup ... all of them] need to be legalized and controlled. Today the NRA fights gun control [thankfully]. But I do not any longer feel that this is a feasible, sensible or current method of approach. I think instead that they need to become much more proactive in the whole idea of everything involved with and surrounding gun use, control, sales, importation, exportation ... etc. As long as they are a blustery group coming from a place of fear they have the potential for losing control. They need to widen their circle of thought, activity, reach and views.
I have a cousin (well it's my cousin's wife) who is pretty stupid. She is taking her 3 girls to Mexico for Spring Break. Everyone has tried to talk her out of it. My aunt made her watch the news to show her the dangers and basically what was going on. She still insists that the American's crossing over will be 'safe' because we're Americans. DUH!! Can you tell that she's NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer?
My opinion is these are military assault weapons. They are either being sold by the military here or there. Like you said, I've been to a heck of a lot of gun shows and gun shops in my life, however I have never seen any of these weapons for sale in any of them. That's because they don't and shouldn't be.
Tim this is a great article. One we should all wonder about. This is not just about owning a gun and selling it to the wrong person. These are assault weapons and weapons that only the military should own. These are weapons that could very easily be used to infiltrate the very borders we are trying so hard to protect. This could be happening right here on the 'other' side of that border.
Lynn....."My opinion is these are military assault weapons. " Keep in mind that there is a difference between semi-auto and full auto guns. Semi-auto guns fire once each time you pull the trigger. Full-auto guns will fire as long as you have the trigger squeezed.
Liz....interesting points as well and thanks for stopping by.
7700 semi automatics that CAN be traced to the US out of the hundreds of thousands used in Mexico is a straw man. The M2 HB is an expensive weapon to get, tons of paperwork needed to possess, and incredibly expensive to feed. The only source stateside is the US armed forces, any of them showing up have serial numbers and are thus traceable. Ditto for the AT/AA weapons/mines.
No, most of theses weapons/systems are coming from foreign sources. My bet is many from Venezuela which makes the mentioned weapons both legally (from Russian/Chinese licenses) and illegally (revoked US licenses). The relative small number of ones coming out of the US represent political opportunity for US politicians and that's the danger there.
Some points to think about also.
If we banned the sale of the small arms from us, and so strawmen could not get them for the Drug Cartels, would that stop them.
In 1986 I had the chance to buy a HK 94, this was at the time a heavily used military weapon, from the Black Market. I had been talking to some men, and we got on the discussion of weapons. Next thing I knew they were offering me a number of weapons at some below market prices; HK 94, M-16, HK E3, Ak's, I was amazed at what these guys had the ability to get their hands on.
What was odd, was when I thought these guys were pulling my leg, we went out and looked at a IJ 30.06 (IJ= Iver Johnson), I believe $700.00, and a Tech 10, I believe $300.00.
So banning the Guns would not help any at all, they could still get them from here easily enough.
Blockading the borders, and increased security to make sure only legal traffic gets through, would be the only way.
Sparky...amazing isin't it?
"In 1986 I had the chance to buy a HK 94, this was at the time a heavily used military weapon, from the Black Market. I had been talking to some men, and we got on the discussion of weapons. Next thing I knew they were offering me a number of weapons at some below market prices; HK 94, M-16, HK E3, Ak's, I was amazed at what these guys had the ability to get their hands on.
What was odd, was when I thought these guys were pulling my leg, we went out and looked at a IJ 30.06 (IJ= Iver Johnson), I believe $700.00, and a Tech 10, I believe $300.00."
Dan...that pretty much debunks the claims that these guns are coming from gun shops and gun shows...doesn't it?
"Most of the weapons you mention exist as those licensed to be made in various countries in South America, Africa, or Asia. Venezuela has been caught supplying funds and weapons to various groups in nations that he does not like over the years. Mexico is one country that is not exactly a friend of theirs and such turmoil plays into Chavez's hands of destabilization.
7700 semi automatics that CAN be traced to the US out of the hundreds of thousands used in Mexico is a straw man. The M2 HB is an expensive weapon to get, tons of paperwork needed to possess, and incredibly expensive to feed. The only source stateside is the US armed forces, any of them showing up have serial numbers and are thus traceable. Ditto for the AT/AA weapons/mines.
No, most of theses weapons/systems are coming from foreign sources. My bet is many from Venezuela which makes the mentioned weapons both legally (from Russian/Chinese licenses) and illegally (revoked US licenses). The relative small number of ones coming out of the US represent political opportunity for US politicians and that's the danger there, "
Charles.....your Chavez theory might be spot on. I don't personally believe that all of those weapons are coming from the U.S. Some are, but not all. And I don't think that reinstating the assualt weapons ban will curtail this problem one bit.
http://www.politicalfriendster.com/showConnection.php?id1=5992&id2=6509
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_EZ9prvN9s
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/06/mexico.troops/index.html
But remember most "Gunrunners" have outside contacts, or so I have heard, and France seems to have a very good business in this...
Did I see any U.S. military-issue weapons stolen from the U.S. military? Not a single one was marked with U.S. military markings. Everything was marked with additional foreign markings on the receiver, including M16 rifles, or they had nothing at all. I saw firearms manufactured in Europe, China, Russia and South America along with U.S. manufactured weapons. I saw rifles that looked familiar with no place of manufacture, no serial number or manufacturer's logo. The information was not removed, it was never there to begin with. I can only assume they came from illegal arms manufacturers in India or Pakistan that produce copies of weapons. It was obvious that none of these firearms came from a U.S. gun shop in Tucson or San Diego. You couldn't buy them from a gun shop in the states if you tried...Cartels buy their arms from countries around the world, most any place where military weapons can be purchased on the black market, or from countries wishing to destabilize North America."
Thanks Sue. I saw a piece a couple of days ago about the gun makers in Pakistan. Good points.
If they have RPGs and .50 cal machine guns, perhaps we should look toward Chavez in Venezuela. He just might like to destabalize the border to create problems for us.
Of course it is possible that Browning 50 caliber heavy machine guns and other weapons are coming from the U.S. If they are, they aren't being bought by straw men at guns shows or gun shops. They are coming from illegal or corrupt sources. Any American caught selling these weapons to the cartels should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
In an earlier comment on this thread, I posted the url to an article where an airplane that was once used by the CIA to transport prisoners to Guantanamo Bay crashed in Mexico. That particular plane just happened to be loaded with drugs. hhhmmm
Scary Very Scary
Supply the cartels with full-auto weapons and exploit the lack of knowledge concerning the difference between semi-auto weapons and full-auto weapons and convince them that the cartels are getting these full-auto weapons from gun shops and gun shows in the U.S. ...then have Eric Holder suggest re-instating the assualt weapons ban...sounds like a plan to me. By all means I'm not saying that is actually what is going on, but it is possible.
We can pretty much assume that there is greed and corruption in each and every organization that is meant to "protect" us so it's very difficult to say exactly where they get the weapons.