OMG --- I Cannot Believe this book made the curriculum in Cleburne ISD (Cleburn, Texas)

Unbelievable.

Awful.
I think no books should totally be banned, but to require something like that is not right. I read things like Clan of the Cave Bear when I was in 5th and 6th grade, which also described rape and a man's inability to perform, physical beatings, etc. But I read it on my own, I can not imagine that most kids would understand it at that age.

yikes!

I dare a parent to stand on the steps of the school and read it outloud! I bet you'd see quite a different attitude about the book then! P.S. - Don't forget to call the media first!

Good Luck!

Wow. That is not a book I would put on a required reading list for high school. I read it but as an older adult. I actually was not that impressed nor have I been of several others recommended by Oprah. I have decided we have very different tastes. I don't watch her show but my friend talked me into reading some of the books with her.

Our school has some of the same required reading I did in high school, some of the classics. 1984, Animal Farm, The Great Gatsby and along those lines. My son is amazed at I know what these books are about!!??? Nothing to questionable or not age appropriate here.
It is hard though because my son's reading level was higher when he was younger and it was hard to find age appropriate books to challenge him.

Absolute bull. I happen to be a student in this class with this assignment. We were given an alternate assignment to read instead of this one, and it was completely anonymous which novel you read. We were given clear warning in black and white over what was in this book, so any surprise held by any student or parent involved is clear miscommunication between student and parent, or the student wasn't listening in class or read the assignment. Our particular teacher was extremely sensitive to the material in this book and offered to talk to students before or after class each day about the alternative assignment or to clarify what was to be expected from Pillars of the Earth.


Personally I am disgusted by the ignorance shown by parents and students alike over this subject...and this is coming from a Cleburne High School Senior! How sad is that???

Well, Zane --- my point still remains. This book is not age appropriate for high school students and should not be a part of the curriculum REGARDLESS of any disclaimers or "clear" warnings about its contents. It is a double standard that the school wouldn't be able to show a movie depicting this book (no rated R movies are allowed) nor would your teacher be allowed to read it out loud to the class --- but it makes it into the curriculum? Alternate project or not, it shouldn't have been a book that is even on the reading list.

In 20 or 30 years when you have children of your own and can look back with more hindsight, THEN you can decide whether or not your teenagers can read this book. As for this house, NO WAY IN HE**.

I am not ignorant. My IQ is actually higher than most people. AND I have the benefit of 20 more years of life than any teen. Therefore I AM qualified to make this judgement call.

WTG Heidi! I agree completely.

Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity. Although you have a very high IQ and I am in no way protesting that, ignorance is simply being uninformed, or seeing things from one side of the spectrum and being blind to the other. I know you're smart, you are my elder and I would never call someone who has experienced life more than me stupid in any way.

However I think you are being incredibly one sided in your argument. If you did indeed have a problem with this book, The Pillars of the Earth, how in any way would it hurt you to ask your child to read the alternative assignment? Your child would not have been subjected to the content material from this novel because his or her choice would be completely anonymous and would not have to be exploited by other young adults who would want to ridicule them for it. And not only that, but if your child honestly had a problem with it, our teacher would have been happy to talk to your child before or after class on the subject and help him or her cope through it, or help get him or her jump started on the alternative novel.

I am secure enough in my faith and in my well being to read a novel like this at the age of 17. I learned so much from this novel and I am going to be there at the Board meeting Monday to protest it's banning, I've written letters and gotten students and parents involved. I feel that loosing this novel as at least an option is a great loss to second year college level students who are about to depart on the rest of their lives.

We can't go up to our college professors and request that they change the curriculum because we are not ready for mature content. We need to learn as Seniors and be prepared for adult situations.....I am sure during college you were (not involved, of course) but introduced to some adult situations. I feel that not being prepared for these things could be such a culture shock that students could loose themselves, just as a lot of them do.

Books are for education and for learning. I did not walk away from this novel going "Rape, sex, disgusting language!!!". I walked away from this book looking at the modern world around me where women were treated like humans, with food on my plate and clothes on my back in an entirely new way. I learned respect for these things (even though I had respected my life always), I felt that a lot of my classmates did the same.

All I am asking is that before you want to ban education from students, and deprive them of that knowledge and know-how, that you put yourself in their shoes...

If you were a student right now in the modern day world, were subjected to sex education in the sixth grade, and watched TV or movies or had access to the internet, and spent your time in a public school where people commonly talked about things that you'd rather not hear, and were also in an advanced placement English course that was equivalent to the second year of college English...do you think you would either be ready to cope with adult material in a reading or have the insight to pick the alternate book? The reason that we are offered advanced placement English courses is because it is the common believe that we are able to make wise decisions because we /are/ advanced, or we have the judgment to read the other novel and not talk about Pillars of the Earth.

I understand as a parent it is your job to protect your child. But it is also your job to educate your child to make wise decisions on his or her own once they reach the college level, as this is, and if you were involved enough in your child's life by the time they reached the second year of college (or the high school equivalent), they would be showing you the warnings, giving you contact information, and showing you the alternative choice in what they were educated in.

Oh, and also tax dollars did not pay for the summer reading novels. We were required to purchase our own novels (or borrow one from a former student)

I bought mine for three dollars at the discount book store. :)

Zane - I very much appreciate the respectfulness of your previous comments and I do appreciate learning the "other" side of the story. But, I still contend that a public school which is funded by my tax dollars (even if the actual book wasn't purchased with my money) should not have this book as a part of its curriculum. I am not lobbying for an all inclusive worldwide BAN or book burning of this novel. Read it on your own time, buy a million copies if you like, but putting it in the curriculum of a high school English class (AP or not) is just not acceptable in my book.

I don't think books of this graphic nature are the only ways to prepare today's students for the "modern" world. And, I consider that particular education to be MY job as a parent --- not the school districts' job. I was in all AP classes (math, science, and english)and while you may not consider my college days as the "modern" era I went on to do perfectly fine --- socially and academically --- without having first read POTE.

As an aside, I am an artist. I took nude figure drawing classes in college (and lots of them because that happens to be one of my fortes). My high school didn't offer nude figure drawing as an elective--- does that mean that they didn't properly prepare me for the "real" college world where I would be faced with naked men posing in front of me on a daily basis? No, it means that in high school not everyone can handle that type of education. It also means that once I am an adult I can make my own choices and I chose a course of study that involved drawing naked people. My choice, my tuition money, my right.

First of all, thank you so much for talking to me like a human instead of a stupid kid as I have had to face so often during these past couple of weeks...I really do appreciate it.

Although we may never agree on this subject, with good reason most likely, I still feel that if we allow this book to be banned, parents may go on to want other books that have adult content in it banned as well....I'm hearing sad undertones of Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet flying out the window.

But the way that AP classes are set up in Cleburne, are that we are literally taking the college curriculum, just like how you took nude figure drawing in college. AP classes carry the same fees as it's equivalent in the college here, and each student taking it for college credit had to pay the college tuition fees. Our teachers sync some of their lessons with the local community college, and we learn what they learn, on top of what the high school demands we learn. Our teachers have been fully prepared to teach college courses...they opted to instead give high school students the chance to get a bit of a college education during high school.

In fact, the number of people taking the AP English class at this level, the second year, is incredibly small in comparison to those in our same grade taking regular English. So not everyone has to handle this book...in fact less than a quarter of people our age have to tolerate this book....and actually nobody had to since there was an alternate assignment. XD

It's just a little different for me, I suppose, seeing one of the best teachers I've ever encountered in my life being put under fire of people who weren't sitting beside me taking notes in that class over the assignment. Most of the people the assignment was given too, excluding I believe four of them, loved this book,learned from it, and are all rallying to have it saved from being banned; even though we all know we are the "model students" of the school going up against some very, very important and respected people.

Thank you very much for your insight and I promise to stop spamming up your rant board now! ^^

No problem, Zane --- too bad more high school students aren't like you. And, yes, I imagine we will just have to agree to disagree, but like you said for good reasons on both sides.

Oh, and by the way --- I did change the title of my post since it isn't REQUIRED that everyone read it. I still however can't believe it is an option in the curriculum. Anyway, I do want truth in my title though!

Thanks for sharing....PIF

I swore I wouldn't spam up your thread any longer, however I thought you'd like to know: We finally had our school board meeting today. XD Myself and all of the other students stood the whole time so that our elders could sit down, and I"m glad we did. Two hours is how long this ended up being. The room was packed, and we were split just about fifty fifty, there was a very distinctive line between those who approved of the book and those who apposed it. Overall things were very civil between us...I mean, there were some things thrown around, mainly people being called "anti-christian" and whatnot, but honestly it wasn't as bad as it could be.

I learned a lot from it, although my point of view still stands I think that everyone had some very valid points to bring up, honestly I hope a compromise is made. There was so much media coverage it wasn't even funny...

No ruling has been called yet on if we get to keep the book or not, however it will be brought up soon...some committees have been set up and it's going to be yet another level of debates coming up. :)

Thanks for the update, Zane. I am glad to see that everyone could at least be civil (as you and I have been able to be as well!) Plus you can really see how respecting your elders (and us not just calling you immature brats and disregarding your opinions) really can lead to positive compromise and people actually getting their ideas heard.

I too have learned a lot from following this and even from my exchange with you. At first I wanted to sling mud and call names (my flesh reaction!) and then, I realized, hey, this kid actually is trying to articulate what is going on in the center of the storm. So, anyway, I learned a lot about myself and how damaging being defensive about my position can be if I am not willing to at least hear the other side.

Thanks for the update! Please come back and update again when a verdict or compromise is reached!

Oh, and once you have kids, (many years in the future!) I would be very interested to know your thoughts on this. Having kids has profoundly affected my life. I see it very differently now because I am actually trying to protect them and defend against things they don't necessarily know they need protection from... Anyway, don't know if this thread will still be around then, but that is a conversation I would love to have!

XD Okay, I have bookmarked this page...I don't know how it'll fair by the next 10 years or so but maybe it'll be here.

And honestly, it is just human nature to be upset when you hear something offensive. Surprisingly enough two years ago before I read this book, had I attended the meeting on Monday afternoon I would be so enraged and just ready to blindly charge in there and defend the church for banning the book. I suppose it is a little different from the end of the spectrum of someone who has fought this battle.

I've learned a lot, and in all honestly that's what this whole fight is in the name of: education. Had I not learned from the book I would not be defending it, had I not learned from talking to you I would not be defending the others. I hate mudslinging, on either side and I feel awful for getting enraged to the point that I want to do it myself.

Thank you so much for your insight! I will keep you updated....but I doubt anything will be done for a few months. If you want to see some of the coverage that has been going on it'll be here:

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/Parents_Debate_Banning_Book

Thanks Zane for the link. I think I saw you on the news last night! Anyway, my guess is that you have dark hair --- were wearing a blue or green shirt (can't remember because they only flashed the crowd for a brief moment (but I saw all the students standing --- were you on the front row of the students sort of in the middle?) Anyway, I was interested to hear the news report on it last night. So far I hadn't seen any coverage (we are in the Dallas area) but they had a story on abot it last night. Very interesting!

I go to Cleburne High School, and The Pillars of the Earth is one of two books students can choose from to do a summer reading essay for a college level class. I think if the students are mature enough to be in a college level class as a junior or senior, then they are mature enough to read this book if they so choose.

Bob --- you can read my above discourse with Zane about this very topic.  I think we covered everything in the above comments.  Public school is still public school and if my money is funding it, I will take a stand if there is something in the curriculum that I don't agree with.  This isn't a question of your maturity as much of a question of whether or not the public has a say in what their children are being taught. In my opinion, this judgement call should fall to the parents and the taxpayers. There are obviously other books to choose from, why not choose something A LOT less graphic?

wtg on being motd in pif on 3 10

TRYING TO PLAY CATCH UP WITH PIF****

There are so many scary things that are assigned to our kids in schools. My husband and I have chosen to homeschool as a result. I WILL protect my children until such time as they are old enough to handle the situations. But NO ONE needs to be reading such graphic sex & violence. Gee...does anyone thing that PERHAPS these violent games/movies etc that kids play might be part of the problem with violence in our youth? Ugh. Don't get me started!

Paying it forward for March 2009

Thanks for sharing
PIF

Have a great gather day!!!!!!
Point's Nation!!!!!!!!!!!!

Paying It Forward!

Enjoyed reading this debate. I agree some things are not age appropriate for young people, but junior and senior students are being bombared with this sort of thing anyway by just watching soap operas on TV, and crime shows on prime time TV. Wanta' ban them? I think all older teenagers should learn these things in the back seat of a Ford Mustang and a lot of them do because they are ignorant to the outcome. You are one in millions. I happen to agree with you, but I think it may be a lost cause and I'm definitely a prude. Let's all ban Huckleberry Finn. He's a racists.

Swingin' by to help you reach your Gather goals!

Congrats on being m.o.t.d. at PIF.

Gave you a 10.

Good for those parents, wee need more of the kind of stand up and say "no" kind of parents in the school systems nowadays. PIF

While most teens are having sex by the time they get in high school, I still would not want my child reading this at school. I wouldn't want it at home either but especially school.
PIF

Wow

PIF

Paying it forward!

God Bless and have a wonderful week!

Thanks for sharing this article.
PIF

just paying it forward

wow - PIF :)

I agree this book is not age appropiate for highschool students for an assignment. I applaud your efforts to stand you rground and choose to fight for what you believe in.

That is crazy.
Why would they do that???
BUt it goes to show you what this world is coming to.

pif

sounds more like college material

Thanks for commenting on my post last night, I am here to return the favor.

PIF>>>
You KNOW you want to!

? PIF ? Points Nation

crazy
pn

Stopping by from

Whatever happened to Shakespeare, or F. Scott Fitzgerald? When did Oprah's choice become the book of choice for high schoolers?

I have seen some interesting things. some of the movies that are pg-13. for petes sake! I get uncomfortable watching some of them!
glad you stood up to the school! I have had problems with simple things from the high school, I just can't believe that our kids are being taught by some of these people!

Just leaving a comment from Points nation.

Wow! I am on the side of the student, I do not believe any book should be banned from school. Some kids are more grown up than their counterparts. I do not believe anyone should decide what is or is not age appropriate.

oops almost forgot!

I'm Surfing Gather, dropping by from Points Nation! ;-)

POINTS NATION

Where were all the parents when the board was reviewing books for the required reading list? All school boards have parents involved in this process. I am sure if enough parents got busy in their children's school career, things like this would not happen. I find it offensive to have a book like that as required reading but I find it more offensive that parents did not stop this from the get go.

It's sad to see people on here advocating censorship.

POINTS NATION!

((( Here from...))) POINTS NATION!!!

never heard of the book, myself
points nation

I read that book. And if you it is a pretty accurate description of life in that time period. I'm not sure it should be required reading, but the rape is in the book because at that time men in power were allowed to treat women that way.

The teens of today know to much all ready .way to much and why they would want them to read a bout it in school is above any thing i have head of.

wow,,, my son wouldnt read it unless it had condense version of it...
points nation

Bringing ya some

Points Nation

I've enjoyed the good discussion. The problem I see is that children often believe they are more mature and equipped to handle things than they really are. My daughter and her school class considered themselves adults at 10 years old. They weren't. Reading material aimed at college sophomores, who are 19-20 is different when viewed by 17-18 year olds. The two years after high school graduation are an immense growing up time.

Rick S. - No one is advocating censorship. I don't care who reads the book on their own time, I just don't think it should be a part of high school curriculum.

i will take a look at this book later but think i will agree with Lee......points nation

this book might be too much for schools...i never read it so i cant make an informed opinion...but what about american history books? think of all the awful things that happen in that book. battles where so many were killed that rivers ran red. the killing and raping of the land of the natives of this country, and the list goes on...just because its not described graphicly doesnt mean its good for kids to read. actually it leaves less to the imagination...

Stopping by from

Ryan --- I disagree. I would rather it be left to the imagination. In my opinion, no one at age 17 needs to be reading in graphic detail someone being forced to give someone oral sex --- in great detail. The rape and sex scenes in this book are so detailed that when one of the women in attendance at the recent school board meeting read aloud from the book, most everyone there was quite uncomfortable. This book has no comparison to history books, sorry, bad argument.

Sorry Lee, your argument to me just doesn't make sense. I am not advocating teens finding out about the birds and the bees in the back of a mustang. This discussion isn't about sex education. It is about parents having the right to have imput on what their kids are reading in high school.

Last time I checked Huckleberry Finn wasn't raping little Susie down the street in great detail in those books. Nor was he forcing her to have oral sex with him. I am not a "prude." I am simply saying that when our tax money is paying for the public school system, then I should have a say in what is being used. If there is a book that can teach the same things as POTE, then that book should be used. I am not advocating banning a book from society, I am talking about what is age appropriate for 17 year olds to be reading as part of the public school system.

Your comment about soap operas on television doesn't even apply to this argument. If you actually read the book you would understand how TAME everything on TV is compared to the approximately 15 sex scenes in the book. They would make even Hugh Hefner blush.

ok first off i wasnt saying that to try and argue your point on the book at all. like i said i have never read it and therefore cant have an informed opinion on it. i was just stating that violence, sex, drugs, and all that good stuff are everywhere. you can fight it, and you may win. but its still there. its part of living in this world. once again, good luck with your fight i never said you were wrong. high school probably isnt the place for something like that in most everyones mind.

and i think your taking our comments a little too serious, i have seen a lot of lees comments and they have never been condecending or even the slightest bit mean. were just puting our opinion out there, you dont have to be on the defencive so much. were not all out to get you, i promise. once again, good luck, hope you win.

Oh my, I stand corrected and properly scolded. I have not read the book, nor do I intend to. I made the referral to Huck Fin because there was, not too long ago, a group and I think it was the ACLU, who was trying to get it banned in the school system because they considered Huck a racists, therefore not nice reading for children. I haven't read the book and I have a feeling that I agree with your stand on this but someone thought it appropriate reading material for some reason and I'm no expert. There are a lot of books that I would have banned from print "period", but again I cannot do this no do I have the right to do so. I'm glad that you had the courage to take a stand for your beliefs. It's people like you who should be running for office. I would vote for you.

By the way, how did it turn out?

That being said, I'm here today on a different mission
Just stopping by to say hello from

wow. PNation

I haven't read it but doesn't sound like something I want my kids reading.

I believe there is still a committee that the school board appointed that is reading the book and then will come together to decide if this book is indeed appropriate for this particular class. For now, the book has been pulled pending their decision. Not sure when the ruling will happen.

Ryan - I am not trying to be rude in my responding comments... BUT, if people would read the article, and the subsequent comments (between Zane and myself), then they would understand what the discussion is actually about. I am not being defensive, but rather trying to explain because the recent comments have been "rabbit chasers" instead of directly responding to what the actual issue is. Yes, drugs, violence, rape and sex are out there. But they are not everywhere... nor do they have to be. I don't allow cocaine in my house, nor rape on TV, by children aren't beaten daily --- my point is that we don't have to allow EVERYTHING to be thrown at our children. We actually can control more than most parents want to admit.

by=my

hello

nice, points nation

I think that choosing a book by ken Follet (whom I like very much by the way) is not the best way to educate kids on history. I am not sure what the administration thought by putting it on the list. If they want kids to read boks that'll stimulate their brains have them read Dumas or Hugo. I used to want to be a teacher but I quickly decided against precisely because of things like that.
Points nation!!!

I agree Stephanie. This post isn't against people reading that book, nor is it against Ken Follet. It just isn't the best or most appropriate choice of books for that age.

Stopping by with

wow, interesting.....will have to read the book...
Hi from Points Nation! :>}

popping in to to say

I don't believe in banning books, but the truth of the matter is that whether they read it in school or not, your teenager can get that book in any bookstore. Instead of being outraged, why not get the book and read it too and talk with your teenager about those specific scenes that worry you. I would rather know what he/she is reading and discuss the issues I have with the book then have them read it without my knowledge and insight. I would have let my teenager read it, but I would have read it as well

Stopping by from

Sharon, I agree with you that if my teenager wanted to read the book on his or her own, then I would do what you are suggesting. BUT, I will never support it being part of a public school curriculum when there are plenty of other books that can teach the same things without the graphic details. If they made The Satanic Verses part of the curriculum in your area would you want that taken off the list? I'm not supporting a book ban. What I am suggesting is that there are simply books that don't belong in a public education system for various reasons... age appropriateness is my reason for this one not being used.

Oh, and by the way --- the passages that I am concerned about in that book are very very graphic. You should look them up and read some of them. I might be able to discuss graphic oral sex with my kids, but I bet they would be so uncomfortable they wouldn't want to continue reading!

I would understand if it was on a reading list and not part of the curriculum.
To have a graphic book such as this in the school in the first place is rather confusing.
Adult books should have no place in grade school or even high school.

I've come by to give your post some,

What's shocking about this is that a book by Follet was described as "well written".
I laughed and coffee came out of my nose.

It burns.