• Home
  • Friends
  • Groups
  • Share

SIGN IN | HELP
dalecoz.gather.com
  • profile|
  • posts|
  • photos|
  • videos|
  • comments|
  • friends|
  • groups
by Dale C.
Member since:
March 7, 2007

Writing Wombats CCXLIII: The Future of Books - The Problem of Filtering

January 18, 2009 09:27 PM EST (Updated: January 23, 2009 02:17 PM EST)
views: 518 | rating: 9.3/10 (25 votes) | comments: 314

 

If you’ve been around aspiring writers much you know that a good percentage of them produce the writing equivalent of really bad karaoke. You also know that there are undiscovered gems out there. Until recently the book buying public has not had to deal with the ‘bad karaoke’ books. We’ve probably missed a few gems too. What we saw in bookstores was filtered. Sometimes that filtering kept out good books, but it mainly kept readers from wading through an awful lot of crap.

 

Like it or not, the filters are going away. Good books are still being published but they are hard to find among increasing amounts of drek. Readers, authors and publishers need to figure out how to deal with the glut. If we don’t the book market will to spiral downward, with more writers pursuing fewer and fewer readers.

 

The key issue for readers, authors and book publishers is going to be how to replace the traditional filters and get high quality novels together with their audiences.

 

In article I’ll look at what has happened to the traditional filters. A later article will look at potential replacements.

 

So what have the filters been and why are they going away?

 

Filter One: The Expense Of Putting Together a Manuscript: Until recently putting together an acceptable manuscript was difficult and expensive. Personal computers and affordable laser printers made writing a novel and putting together a manuscript much easier. Before affordable PC and laser printers you didn’t just have to write the novel, you also had to type up the manuscript, then retype revisions, a slow and cumbersome process that kept many would-be novelists (including me) from ever sending a completed manuscript to a publisher.

 

Affordable computers and laser printers let more people write novels. Established writers could write faster. The result was empowering. A lot more people wrote a lot more stuff. The result was also disastrous. The publishing industry simply couldn’t deal with the increased flow of manuscripts. That brings us to filter two.

.

Filter Two: Publishers: Publishers used to look at the stream of manuscripts coming in from aspiring writers and rejected the ninety-nine percent or more that for one reason or another they couldn’t profitably sell. That took care of most of the ‘bad karaoke’ writing.

 

Writers had little choice but to accept the verdicts of the publishers. Publishing and promoting a book was expensive. An author could almost never make money publishing a book independently. Also, ‘subsidy publishers’ preyed on would be authors, charging exorbitantly to print unsellable books. Most readers correctly felt that self-published books were mostly junk because if a book was any good it would have been published by a real publisher.

 

The system worked for the most part. Authors with enough persistence and skill could find a publisher. Readers could know that the books they saw on a booksellers shelves usually, though by no means always, met a set of minimum standards. Publishers prospered in that environment, taking most of the risks and most of the profits from publishing. Most writers didn’t prosper, though authors who made it through the filters and established a name for themselves could earn a modest living at writing, and a few very big name authors became moderately wealthy.

 

Smart publishers made an effort to find the few publishable manuscripts among the “slushpile” of unsolicited manuscripts they received. That made sense because if they didn’t they not only lost out on a potential profit, but they also handed that profit to their competitors. Good publishers also took pride in finding and nurturing new talent.

 

Several things changed that system over the past several years. First, the sheer number of manuscripts coming in made even skimming the slushpile more expensive. Second, many major US publishers were bought out by conglomerates from outside the publishing industry. They moved to the short-term “what is the bottom line this quarter” thinking that has destroyed so many US industries. Many publishers also seemed to develop a “who needs talent when we have marketing?” view of the industry.

 

Most major publishers stopped looking at unsolicited manuscripts a few years ago. They farmed that function out to agents. As the slushpile flood diverted to agents, those agents were also overwhelmed and most of the good ones stopped looking at unsolicited manuscripts too.

 

New authors found it harder to get published by traditional publishers. They also found it easier to take other routes. Print-on-demand and e-book technology makes both self-publishing and being a publisher much less expensive.

 

Some readers still look down on self-publishing and to some extent on being published by small POD or e-book publishers. Part of the problem is lingering attitudes left over from the old “big publisher versus vanity press junk” dichotomy. Part of the problem is that a lot of small POD and e-book publishers do publish “bad karaoke” writers.

 

Small POD and e-book publishers have little short-term incentive to filtering out the junk. Being selective can actually hurt a small publisher in the short-term because most novels will attract enough of the novelist’s family and friends to pay the bulk of the (very low) costs of publication. That makes it close to cost free in the short term to take a chance on a new novelist if the advance is low enough or if there is no advance. Some, but by no means all POD publishers actually charge the author for publication, which gives them incentive to publish just about anything.

 

At the same time, POD and e-books are in many ways a much more rational way of publishing books than the traditional publishing model with its wasteful return policies. Some newer, smaller publishers are finding and publishing gems or at least books that satisfy certain audience niches more effectively than traditional publishers. Readers who stick exclusively with traditional publishers do miss out on some good reading.

 

Filter Three: Bookstores.: Up until the last couple of decades, bookstores acted as an additional filter, with small bookstores owned by people who were also avid readers Those bookstore had limited shelf space and did not stock books that they didn’t like or think would sell.

 

That changed in two waves. First, bookstore chains pushed most small independent bookstores out of the market by stocking a larger selection and charging lower prices. That cut out much of the filtering function of bookstores. More shelf space meant that bookstores didn’t have to be as careful what they stocked. Loose return policies meant that if a bookstore overestimated many books would sell it was the publisher’s problem, not the bookstore’s.

 

The increasing power of the chains also made the market less responsive to local preferences. A local bookstore had to know what would sell locally and order accordingly. Owners often knew and talked with customers. That was much more difficult for chains.

 

Second, Amazon.com rose to challenge the chains. Amazon lists books at very little cost to themselves and do almost no filtering. Best sellers from big traditional publishers are listed along with self-published “bad karaoke” POD books. Amazon reviews can give some idea of the quality of a book but they’re fairly easy to game.

 

So the traditional filters are disappearing. Readers can’t find new authors they like among the glut of “bad karaoke” books. New authors often can’t find a publisher, and often can’t find an audience even if they find a publisher. Traditional publishers no longer reliably find fresh talent and increasingly rely on marketing rather than talented writers. That shrinks the market by making books less attractive to younger readers.

 

So how can all of that be reversed? I have some ideas. They’ll be in a later article.

For part two, click here.

Expand Tags: writing, book on demand, writing contest, writers, slushpile, readers, writer, publishing, novels, books, workshop
Expand To Groups: Authors Unite, Books & Writing Corps, Crime Writers Showcase & Workshop, First Chapters Lounge, First Chapters Lounge-Crime Edition, Gather Writing Essential, The Novelist Lounge, The Science Fiction Writer's Collective, The Writin' Wombats, Writer's Life, Writing Across Genres
rate

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10
email
print
link to this page
Paste this link into an email or IM
Bookmark this post:
Facebook
Twitter
Delicious
Buzz
More

Comments: 314 ( 16 removed by Dale C. )

Michael Harvey Jan 18, 2009, 9:41pm EST
Very informative piece. I will await your next article on how to reverse all this.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy C. Jan 18, 2009, 9:44pm EST
First?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy C. Jan 18, 2009, 9:45pm EST
Yip! I cheated, what of it?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Judi F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:08pm EST
For those who somehow missed getting notified of the auction - either through personal email or Gather Broadcasting (and if you did, we have serious problems b/c I think I just sent out close to 2000 emails...), here's the link to the article about the auction

Authors in Action!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 18, 2009, 10:11pm EST
Great analysis, Dale!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jamie C. Jan 18, 2009, 10:19pm EST
Yep!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:23pm EST
First of all, Jamie... zombie kitties!!!! I love you!

Dale, great article and I also look forward to the next one. I will say in terms of e-publishing, new presses like Ravenous Romance so far have kept (as far as I can tell via reading the work of other authors) the quality level very high. So hopefully the future of e-pubs will contain a higher standard of filtering than we're seeing right now. I think we will because I do think e-pubs will only continue to grow in popularity. Although I don't think they'll ever knock traditional presses out of the game. I hope not 'cause I love reading and walking and I can't do that lugging a computer or Kindle!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:25pm EST
And i hope you all have noticed I have been making efforts NOT to do a Dana on the last few threads I've been on!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:25pm EST
Pat is a promotion juggernaut. I am continually impressed by her!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 18, 2009, 10:26pm EST
By the way: for those of you who don't already know this, I originally posted this as a guest blogger at Pat Bertram's blog. She did a great job of promoting it. Her blog is at http://ptbertram.wordpress.com.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:27pm EST
Deja vu, Dale. :-)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 18, 2009, 10:27pm EST
Dana F is reading my thoughts again and responding before I post. Hate it when that happens.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:29pm EST
And the bookstore chains are in danger too - Borders might very well go under. Hard to imagine.

I go out of my way to shop at indie stores - now that I'm not working, I can go to my local bookstore a lot more often. I did all my book Christmas shopping there, and asked for a gift certificate from them for Christmas - which I got. So I bought all of my trip reading there, and of course I went over the gift certificate amount.

Uh, okay, that's a little off-topic.

I actually think that a lot of agents are taking new clients these days. They have to figure out what their own relevance in today's industry is. Much of the editing is now falling to agents - what I've heard is that once upon a time, an editor could take a book that was, say, at a "3" in terms of readiness to publish. Now it has to be at 7. So it falls to the agent to take MS with potential and get it up to where a publisher will risk taking it on.

I think the returns issue has to be dealt with, first and foremost. I also think one of the biggest problems is marketing - not marketing in the sense of, taking a piece of crap and pushing it on the masses, but marketing in terms of, helping the book find its readers.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:33pm EST
But yeah, agents are overwhelmed too. When I read the blogging agents and see what their workflow is, how many queries they get...wow.

I note that some agents seem to be working on branding themselves as well as their authors.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 18, 2009, 10:33pm EST
You know, going back to pitches, here's what Pat mentioned for hers:

Jane Eyre, but with way better sex. Crazy woman in the tower included."

Thinking about this, isn't such a description considered "high-concept," which is a good thing? If I understand it correctly, high concept applies to things that can be described in one or two sentences.

For example, the movie UNDERWORLD is considered high concept, because it can be boiled down like this: Romeo & Juliet for Vampires & Werewolves.

I guess what I'm saying is that I see Judi's point, in that this pitch might be worth seriously considering.

Of course, the movie experts among us might have a better handle on what high concept means. I'm only repeating what I've read here and there.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:36pm EST
I can't help it. My psychic powers are growing...
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:36pm EST
Sherrie, that's pretty much high concept - something that can be boiled down to a sentence or two.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:37pm EST
ACCKKK!!!! Kitten attacking TOES!!!!!!

I have to go find slippers. This is getting painful.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:37pm EST
Sadly high concept usually equals bad movie...and there speaks a jaded ex Hollywood gal.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:37pm EST
Poor Lisa...attacked toes by adorable kitten. NO sympathy from me! :-)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:38pm EST
I gave her the kitten, doncha know... and she was a perfectly well behaved angel before!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:38pm EST
The ultimate result of such thinking: "Snakes on a Plane" - which gets its high concept in the title!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:38pm EST
Lisa is giving her CRAZY pills or something...

Ahem.

Yes.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:38pm EST
Or Flight of the Living Dead! Heh.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:38pm EST
The kitten is fearless. I laugh every time I see her attack Spike - who is many times her size.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:40pm EST
I wish you had a video camera
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dana F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:41pm EST
Okay, must go write now...
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy C. Jan 18, 2009, 10:42pm EST
Great read Dale, thanks. I'm going to absorb information, since I have nothing to add.

It took me an hour to get all caught up with you people, geez.. is it Friday night or something?

Pat S. I'm miffed with Ghost Whisperer jumping the shark move too. (I knew what that was too.) Criminal Minds is good. Not a Lost fan. There isn't much I watch on TV. History channel anyone? Wild West Tech? smile.. Histories Mysteries?

A small group of us are working on the Murder Mystery Weekend, slated for March 13th. It will be a come as you wish party. Alters are welcome, no limit, and not necessary to play.
More details as we get closer to March.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 18, 2009, 10:43pm EST
Kittens and slippers...now, all of this sounds so cozy, I don't want to do ANYTHING productive. Darn it all.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy C. Jan 18, 2009, 10:45pm EST
I'd have loved to been a fly on the wall for the Snakes on a Plane pitch. Bad movie, bad, bad.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jill Lynn A. Jan 18, 2009, 10:48pm EST
Sorry, but I must interrupt this regularly scheduled thread. STEELERS!!! Yes!



As you were.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sy g. Jan 18, 2009, 10:50pm EST
I am panting behind Wendy. Did we really tear throught that last thread in less than a day? Here is my pitch for that thread. Football playoffs, strange TV shows, writing contests, and women's eyes. All told through the voices of a very talented but slighly manic group of folks.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 18, 2009, 10:50pm EST
It's so nice of you, Wendy & Company, to be planning the mystery party. I'm so glad to be a Wombat. Wish I had more fur though. I'm freezing.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 10:50pm EST
Wendy, that was the pitch: "Snakes on a plane!"
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sy g. Jan 18, 2009, 10:51pm EST
yay steelers. yay. Jill.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sy g. Jan 18, 2009, 10:52pm EST
Here is the pitch for Wombats - the Book. Writers talking.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Pat Bertram Jan 18, 2009, 11:04pm EST
One thing I've done to (eventually) help the filtering process is to commandeer a group on facebook called "Help Support Independent Publishers!" I'm not sure what to do with it . . . wait a minute. Dale, did you join the group? If so, will you post this as the first discussion?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Pat Bertram Jan 18, 2009, 11:06pm EST
I've been wracking my brain all evening trying to figure out how to get the discussions on that group started, and here's this fantastic article.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 18, 2009, 11:12pm EST
Pat B: Sure. I don't remember if I've joined yet or not, but if I haven't I will and we can go from there.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 18, 2009, 11:40pm EST
Paul, if you'd come back on to your own thread, that would have been helpful. But you disappeared. And I don't think we've ever had a chat thread that was a piece of writing put out for discussion. Plenty of people have posted their writing but not as the official chat threads. The only time we've posted writing in the chat threads was when EVERYBODY participated.

I put out a comment about the writing though and so did others, but you never responded. And it would be a rare excerpt that would prompt 300 comments, just about the writing.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Paul Allen Leoncini Jan 18, 2009, 11:54pm EST
Maybe we should post our work, works for me? Let the chips fall where they may!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 18, 2009, 11:58pm EST
Well, dang, I guess I was one of the trouble-makers, wondering about the lack of a question. But I honestly was confused. Here's where I'm going to make a total ass of myself, but so be it.

I guess I think of these threads as some sort of virtual party, where the host invites everyone over and gets the conversation rolling. On one hand, I thought it was great to see a writing sample on the last thread. But on the other hand, I felt kind of funny, like when someone invites you to their house, and spends the time showing you slides from their vacation or pix of their grandkids.

It's like, the vacation shots are nice, and the grandkids are adorable, but I'd like to talk about something other than the creations of the host.

Paul, I know you're going to be angry at me for saying that. And I'm sorry. Please don't hate me.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:03am EST
Paul, there have been threads where the host or hostess have not been able to be there the whole time, that's true, however most usually say something like hey, I have to go do this or that and I'll check in later and have fun. And I had no idea you were working today, I doubt anyone did without you telling us. So we did what we usually do, talk about everything.

Pat B. That's a great idea, having Dale do the discussion. Great start and then we can figure out other discussions.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:08am EST
Sherrie, no worries. The wombat threads are a mixture, just as you say. someone introduces a topic and it starts the ball rolling. We always bounce everywhere in our discussions. We have had threads with examples of work posted by everyone within that thread and discussed it but we've also discussed everything else under the sun. Some threads we zoom through and some we don't. Today we did.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 12:09am EST
Yeppers.

I do try to read peoples' stuff, but I prefer to do it off-Gather - this format really is not good for fiction, IMO.

I really would prefer if people would post links to their writing and not use the chat threads to post writing for discussion. Unless everyone wants to do that, but I doubt that everyone will.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 12:12am EST
I've had threads last for a couple of days and threads go in a few hours. It just depends. I also note that threads rarely discuss the "topic" for more than the first comments - maybe up to 75 or so but I've rarely seen the topic discussed over 300 comments.

Paul, honestly, if you want critique, post your excerpt and then post the link to it.

Unless everybody here wants to start doing chat threads featuring the host's writing, but I honestly don't think that is going to be most peoples' preference.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:13am EST
Paul, where's the foul? You put up the thread, everyone came and talked about everything. That's what we do. And we enjoyed it, isn't that the purpose of the thread?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:16am EST
Lisa, I know I don't want to post my work as a thread. I don't mind offering bits and pieces here and there, but this is not a blog, this is a social chat combined with things we've read about publishing, writing, critiques. Some of our threads are serious, for a time, some are silly and fun.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:19am EST
So, as far as all this is concerned, there is no judgment on my part--we handled the thread like we always do. And we moved on. IMO, the horse is dead, let bury it and move on.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:21am EST
Jamie, I've never heard of icanhascheezburger.com. but this is where I you get all the cute cat things? I'll have to check it out.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 19, 2009, 12:23am EST
Oh, and Dale -- feel free to delete any of my comments too.

C'mon Paul, don't be mad. We're all friends here. Maybe we just stumbled onto something that hasn't come up before. The question of "Is it appropriate to post a personal writing sample as a Wombat thread?" Let's come to a consensus and forget about it. Then we can all be friends again.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:24am EST
Sherrie, lolol! well I think all the wombats are wonderful, but not quite that wonderful, you crack me up.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jamie C. Jan 19, 2009, 12:24am EST
They've got a doggie one too, Sia, but it's not quite as funny. It's ihasahotdog.com

We all need a chuckle now and then. I seem to need them many times a day.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Beaker (just Beaker) Jan 19, 2009, 12:24am EST
I think you're delightful, Sherrie. How's the weather down south, btw? We're having a long warm and dry spell here in mid-California. Could be the driest January on record. Think I'll move out onto the veranda and check out the stars....
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jamie C. Jan 19, 2009, 12:26am EST
Erm... Sherrie has been here all along. She was with the wombats during FC1, which was 2 years ago.

G'night, 'bats.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:30am EST
I'll look, at both, Jamie, thanks. G'night Jamie. Sleep well. I know I'll be heading there soon.

Both Dan and Jake are home tomorrow. Tuesday, I'm hoping to get back to some serious writing.

Beaker, you can see stars? Oh wait, it's winter so no fog.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 19, 2009, 12:32am EST
Oh yeah, I guess I'm not a short-timer. But I am kinda short.

Hi Beaker! The weather here has finally warmed up. It was a balmy 53 degrees here yesterday. We don't deal well with the cold in these here parts.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:35am EST
Hey, did Dale post a link to the amazon video on pitches? Did I miss it? If you didn't Dale, could you? I'd like to see what they suggest. I have a pretty cool reference book called Give 'Em What They Want, which discusses pitches including what y'all were discussing earlier about high concepts and tag lines.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 12:38am EST
Guys, (and lady guys): I went through and removed quite a few comments. I tried to be fair about it. Anything that seemed to be attacking anyone went away. I think I got them all. Some of them I hesitated on. If you want to know why I removed them feel free to e-mail me.

Feel free to discuss whether or not posting stories as a wombat thread is acceptable in the future. I will remove any personal attacks or anything that might be taken that way as soon as I see them.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 12:40am EST
Sia: No. I haven't posted the link to the Amazon video yet. Got a little busy fighting fires there for a few minutes. It'll take a little while to look it up.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sherrie Super Jan 19, 2009, 12:43am EST
Lady guys. That still cracks me up. BTW, I think you did a fine job on clean-up, Dale.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:46am EST
Dale, I know from experience, fighting fires are not fun, but necessary. I'd appreciate the link when you get a chance. I don't mind sharing what the book says, but I'm thinking I'd like to have something to compare it to.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 12:47am EST
Okay. There are links to the tutorials here: https://www.createspace.com/abna.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Beaker (just Beaker) Jan 19, 2009, 12:47am EST
We live above the fog, which means we're often a few degrees warmer than the valley this time of year, even though we're up here where it snows. Just one of those weird things. I wish it would rain, though, because I'm worrying about the coming fire season.

Has anyone else read Chet Raymo? I'm reading "An Intimate Look at the Night Sky," which has me much more interested in the constellations than I'd normally be in the dead of winter.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 12:49am EST
Oh, "lady guys" is one for the Lexicon, I swear!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 12:54am EST
Thanks Dale, I appreciate it.

Mid California gets more than their share of fires, Beeker. But you did get quite a load of snow, that should help, shouldn't it?

Oh Dale, you've gone and done it now, lmao! The Lexicon no less.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Beaker (just Beaker) Jan 19, 2009, 1:06am EST
Yeah we got lots of snow in mid-December, but then a couple of weeks now of temps in the 60s and low 70s. There's a chance of rain in about 5 days, but it's not a big storm.

I grew up in suburban L.A., and we went on field trips to the tide pools, and on whale-watching boats. Here, the kids go cross-country skiing. On a field trip. How cool is that?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 1:06am EST
Sia: I'm afraid I can't claim it. I forget who used it a couple of threads ago, but somebody did.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 1:14am EST
It was Pat S. Something that her boss actually said in a meeting!

Because it would be hard to make something that utterly, brilliantly inane up, you know?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
~Sia McKye~ Jan 19, 2009, 1:17am EST
Well, I think it's cool, Lady Guys.

Well, I'm heading off to bed. I didn't get a whole lot of writing done, this afternoon. Did quite a bit in the morning, tho. I enjoyed watching the football game too much. Like Sy reminded me on the last thread, it's a good way to work off aggression. I needed the rough and tumble of it all today, lolol!

G'night all. Sleep well, good dreams. I'll be sleeping good tonight.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 1:18am EST
Okay. Time to mess with everybody's productivity. If you have deadlines and time commitments don't go to www.befunky.com
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 1:30am EST
Not. Gonna. Go. There.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 1:44am EST
Paul: My entries from FCR and the Crime contest are still up. I have about ten pages worth of posts on Gather. Obviously I thought they were interesting or I wouldn't have posted them.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 1:47am EST
Lisa: Are you sure? Don't make me tell you about AddictingGames.com. Oops I guess that slipped out. You know you're curious. Take just one little bite of the apple.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 1:49am EST
What harm can it do?
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 1:51am EST
(Got to work on that hissing sound). Productivity? You don't need no stinking productivity.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 1:52am EST
I'm doing pretty well being completely unproductive all by myself. Sigh. I'll get to it. I swear.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 2:02am EST
BTW: My wife and I went to Burger Kind tonight. I've been watching calories lately, so I checked the calorie counts on what I would have normally eaten: Steakhouse Burger, Small Fries, Drink. Around 925 calories, 340 calories, 110 calories respectively. I should be eating around 2500 calories/day to maintain my ideal weight. So, 1375 calories in the one meal. Fat content makes it even worse. I settled for a whopper junior with no cheese, onion rings, and 2/3rds of a coke. That's still something like 760 calories and 38 grams of fat--not to mention an ungodly amount of salt.

Got to stay away from fast foods if I'm going to stay in reasonable shape.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Dale C. Jan 19, 2009, 2:02am EST
Kind=King
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 2:03am EST
Yep. Have you heard of "Eat this, not that"? They have a website and are great at tracking calories and nutritional content in chain and fast food restaurants. Plus they tell you what to have instead.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 3:15am EST
I make exceptions for kettle cooked potato chips and certain beer battered onion rings. No, I do NOT want to know.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Wendy C. Jan 19, 2009, 3:53am EST
It's our pleasure to put together the Mystery Bash.

Dale ck your gather mail please. Sorry about all the clean up, been there, done that. Whee!

As I recall, I used bits of my writing to start a conversation.. but it was about how to write particular scenes, not necessarily the scenes I posted. Make sense? It's late. I need to go to bed soon.

Sia, Tuesday is the inauguration. I'm not seeing much of worth getting done here while that's going on. Just sayin.

I'll check the links tomorrow if I can keep up. I thought for a moment I was going to have to resuscitate Sy, he was breathing so hard. Poor man.

Goodnight Neverland.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Lisa "Queen Wombat" F. Jan 19, 2009, 3:55am EST
Wendy - different thing. No worries.

Feh, I'm tired. This might be an early night for me.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Beth H. Jan 19, 2009, 4:46am EST
Fell asleep--on the couch!--before responding. And now that it's nearly morning, I'm going to bed. No day off for me, so I have to get up in a couple hours. I'll for a coherent response sometime during the day.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Judi F. Jan 19, 2009, 8:57am EST
Morning. Hmm... lots of fireworks apparently after I went to bed. (oops, TMI? heh.)

Seriously, wtf? The thread I saw didn't have offensive comments, just Wombats having fun - like we tend to do. Dale, you were wholly justified in removing nasty comments.

Happy MLK day. I'll be writing - big surprise.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Judi F. Jan 19, 2009, 9:02am EST
Okay, I'm grinning like a fool - the bid is up to $16 from a starting bid of $2 for the ARC of In Over Her Head.

Here's the link. Just, cause, ya know... In Over Her Head auction

I can see this is going to be addictive.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
JEFFREY SIGER Jan 19, 2009, 9:05am EST
You guys are REALLY hard to keep up with. I left a note on one thread about how prolific you are and how quickly a tiny thread turns into a suit with two pairs of pants! Then I learned it was hanging in a totally different closet-and left it there. Now, I find it's in a whole new housing development! I'll try to keep up when I can, but as the grandson of a tailor (on my mother's side), I can't promise to have my needle ready at all times. By the way, as I wrote over on the other TWO threads, how nice of you, Judi, to be looking out for your fellow Wombats, thanks Dana, and looking forward to meeting you, Paul, in San Diego on the 6th of Feb. Sy, hope to catch up with you when I'm back in NY. Now back to your regularly scheduled programing:)
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Jamie C. Jan 19, 2009, 9:46am EST
Good morning.

One of my deleted comments had a website for Dana to check out, or not, in her free time.

Dana- the kitteh website is icanhascheezburger.com Fun for all kitteh lovers.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Ken C. Jan 19, 2009, 9:48am EST
With regard to quality control, one thing we can do is relentlessly sweat to improve our work; kill the bugs and errors and shore up every weakness. It may not raise the level of the pool much, but at least it's within our power.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sy g. Jan 19, 2009, 10:24am EST
Good morning. I wonder if I might address the deletion issue. I am favor of deleting offensive comments, and in fact I started the practise here when we were all being hounded about a month ago by our most notorious villain. And I encouraged others to do the same.

The downside of deletion is that there are obvious holes and gaps, so that people who go to bed early and live on the East Coast, like Judi and I (not that we went to bed together, you understand, oh, never mind) wake up, read the thread and get confused.

This is not very serious, and its better than leaving nasty or offensive comments on. The only caveat I would raise, is that it might be a good idea to copy such comments before deletion. I am not sure why, maybe it is my inner historian, who hates the thought of any lost documentation. Remember I am the one who has copied a large portion of earlier threads into word. Some Wombats have deleted their own threads, or their entire profiles, so that all of their comments are gone. By copying the threads into word, the entire thread is preserved off line, and available if anyone ever cares. Again, its the native historian in me.

Oh yeah, and I agree that chat threads should not be for showcasing fiction, but should return to discussion on writing or related issues.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sy g. Jan 19, 2009, 10:33am EST
Jeffrey

It can be confusing at first. Here is how it has worked since May 2007. The conversation goes on until we reach about 300 comments (at which point the loading time gets slow). then someone asks "who has the next thread" and someone else says "I'll take it" They then post an article, to the Writin Wombats group, and leave a link in a comment on the old thread. Everyone then moves to the new thread, either by following the link or checking on the Wombats home page. All of is loosely but marvelously supervised in a very gentle way by our beloved founder and Queen, Lisa F.

I suppose we are a very democratic monarchy, with Lisa being such a benign monarch. We do have some aristocracy, Judi is Lady Judith, although her exact title is not clear. Pat is a self proclaimed Countess. My humble role is keeper of the harem, whose members generally include some of the newer lady Wombats, and any others who have not yet grown tired of my behavior. John Phillip is of course, our court jester, and Ken, the sergeant at arms.

I hope that is all clear. If not, ask Pat for clarification. She is also a project manager besides being a Countess, so she will set you straight real fast.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Pat Bertram Jan 19, 2009, 11:17am EST
Dale, I checked. You are a member of the group. So all you have to do is go here, click "start new topic" on the discussion board, and post your article: Help Support Independent Publishers!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kris W. Jan 19, 2009, 11:47am EST
Hello all! Been a good while since I've been able to actually sign on from work, their stupid firewall was blocking everything for a little bit. However, hopefully, I'll be able to be on and posting a bit more often!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Sy g. Jan 19, 2009, 11:52am EST
Welcome back Kris.

I dont know how anyone esle feels about this, but the fact that almost 300 comments have been deleted from the last thread makes me sick. Luckily Dale shares my instincts regarding history, and all is not lost.

I no longer care what Paul thinks. I do not believe he has the capacity to be a Wombat thread host. I will no longer participate in any thread that he hosts, if he is permitted to host again. And Paul, do not send me any hostile emails. I am not in the mood.
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
Kris W. Jan 19, 2009, 11:55am EST
O.O Apparently, I have missed quite a bit! ~300 comments deleted? Wow. If someone could kindly fill me in via email, I'd certainly appreciate it!
reply to this comment
Chime in! Become a Gather member to comment.
Join Gather »
Already a member? Sign in
JEFFREY SIGER Jan 19, 2009, 12:00pm EST
Thanks, Sy. I've got it, by God, I think I've got it!