Hey, Israel, how does it feel to lose two wars in a row now? Especially the PR war.
Getting a clue yet?
Maybe that clue is this: you can't keep a people locked up in what is, in essence a concentration camp without them doing the exact same things you did when Jews were locked up and besieged in the Warsaw ghetto? Ring a bell? Perhaps you ought to try a different approach, like actually talking to Hamas, the, erm, elected government of Palestine and then dismantling the settlements in the West Bank and share the water from the Jordan River in a fair and equable fashion?
Because, as it looks to me, and as Col. Lang writes:
The Israelis have failed to humble Hamas. Rockets still arrive in Israel. This failure in their self-declared war aim will cost them dearly in the strategic contest. They are going to halt their "offensive without any sort of concession from Hamas?"
So, you just murdered more than a thousand people for what? Literally nothing. Hamas is still shooting rockets into Southern Israel.
Seriously, I'm not anti-Israel. I'm not opposed to Israel being a state. What I'm opposed to is stupid, bloody minded butchery, especially when it achieves absolutely zero strategic gains. And that is exactly what has happened here. You lost to a bunch of rag tag fighters who are shooting nothing but glorified bottle rockets into Southern Israel, while you had all those fighter jets we sold you, and all those Merkava tanks.
As one commenter at Col. Lang's notes:
"Instead Israel is planning to resort to its favourite diplomatic manoeuvre: unilateralism. It wants a solution that passes over the heads of Hamas and the Palestinians. Or as Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister, put it: “There is no intention here of creating a diplomatic agreement with Hamas. We need diplomatic agreements against Hamas.”
That's your strategy? If it is, I can promise you this: Hamas won't quit. They have nothing to lose. Get it? Nothing to lose.
Do you think, maybe, just maybe, it's time for a strategic and diplomatic re-evaluation
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Comments: 58
I am interpreting Israel's actions as measured destruction and calculated timing - between administrations but officially when the one that had given unlimited approval still holds the reins of power. This last incursion into Gaza is forcing me to compare information I have on ghettos under the Nazis -- what psychologist forgot to tell the Israelis that would be the effect?
I have to hold Hamas accountable for much of this, and you can't negotiate with people that don't want to except from a position of strength. You can lead a horse to water, but not make it drink...
What did Israel want? They wanted the rockets/missiles to stop, along with all the other weapons smuggled into Gaza. They got the world to pay attention again, as did Hamas for different reasons, but they certainly both paid a high price for it as well. Hamas does not help the Palestinian people there with thier terrorist actions; it's unnecessary, even foolish.
A truce, or ceasefire of some duration is going to be forced onto Hamas, whether they want it or not now; all depending on the UN, EU, Egypt, and US if they follow through with the proposals. We'll see I guess.
As you play semantics by dubbing Israeli actions as murder but still ignore Hamas' continual attacks as being acts of anything but calculated escalation. Hamas relies on apologists such as yourself to win its PR war. Israel cannot win that war because to do so means rolling over continually. When it strikes back anytime it is wrong.
So the solution is simple, give the Palestinians (Hamas) everything they want and hope for the best.
As for losing wars, this campaign seems to be far from a loss. The Israelis this time went in heavy and have destroyed any Hamas types who dared to fight and with minimal casualties. They learned form the last Lebanon incursion that air power isn't enough and Hamas has learned that again it can't win any type of fight if the Israelis are serious.
Aren't they free to leave the camps and settle elsewhere? I mean, if anyone else would take their butts.
Focusing on the ugliness of a current war and trying to equate it to terrorism does not remove the arc of murder, intolerance, terror of a whole civilization for hundreds of years, nor the specific acts of terrorism by the Palestinians on global civilians, starting in 1972 at the Munich Olympics.
In terms of extremists and terrorists, Israel unilaterally stops and they still get rockets.
Lera, they were there first. They came from neighboring Countries and settled in the barren land of the once known Israel. At one time they tried to flee, or were expelled. (twice, I think)
In 1937, Israel's future first Prime Minister David Ben Gurion said "We must expel Arabs and take their places." By 1951, the United Nations (UN) estimated 711,000 Palestinian refugees existed outside Israel, with about one-quarter of the estimated 160,000 Arab Palestinians remaining in Israel as "internal refugees." Today, Palestinian refugees and their descendants are estimated to number more than 4 million people.
The 1967 Palestinian exodus refers to the flight of around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians out of the territories occupied by Israel during and in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Their exodus was followed by the demolition of many Palestinian villages, including Imwas, Yalo, and Beit Nuba, Surit, Beit Awwa, Beit Mirsem, Shuyukh, Jiftlik, Agarith and Huseirat. The Special Committee heard allegations of the destruction of over 400 Arab villages, but no evidence in corroboration was furnished to the Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices affecting the human rights of the population of the occupied territories.
Approximately 145,000 of the 1967 Palestinian refugees were refugees from the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. By December 1967, 245,000 had fled from the West Bank and Gaza Strip to Jordan, 11,000 had fled from Gaza to Egypt and 116,000 Palestinians and Syrians had fled from the Golan Heights further into Syria.
The right of Israel to exist where it does in my opinion comes from archeological fact that the Jews settled in that area a long time ago ... 300 years according to some, and have lived there ever since. The area was never a country as we think of countries so they did not steal anyone's country to create Israel.
The creation of the country was in large part due to the holocaust, which most of the Arab countries in the area participated in. Iran, Iraq, Syria, the religious organizations of the area of Palestine terrorized Jews for hundreds of years before Israel existed.
Iran even got its name in 1935 when the first Shaw of Iran, Persia at the time, changed it in sympathy with Hitlers feelings about racial superiority, Iran means Aryan. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem organized terror and murder attacks on the Jews since the 1920's. About the time of the war he tried to poison the water supply of Tel Aviv to kill thousands. It is any wonder the Jews wanted to escape from the Arabs/Muslims?
Acknowledging a problem of crimes, intolerance, human rights, it is understandable that Israel would want to create a state in a place the world wide zionist movement started buying land up in in 1898 to build a country. When Israel declared statehood, they had bought about 60% of the land that made up the country.
During WWII Jews were kicked out of Iran, Iraq, Egypt and other countries, without being allowed to take their property, and without being compensated for their lands, some communities have been around for 1000 years.
Comparing that with Palestinians, why do we always hear about the Palestinians? Is it because they are prepared to kill innocent people all over the world for their cause?
When you actually listen to the what is said in the Muslims lands, this is about Islam not losing real estate. This is about a perceived insult to Islam, framed in terms of the West, the great satan, and the Jews, described ever more insultingly.
Somehow we are led to think the world cares more about the poor Palestinians, maybe some parts of the world do, there are like 44 Muslim countries that make sure the world hears about everything they can complain about in the UN, while never hearing or complain about the terror and violence the Palestinians commit.
Since these people cannot live together, what other alternative is there?
The problem is neverending because instead of doing the right thing and helping the Palestinians to resettle in Arab lands and trying to move forward, the radical Muslims spend their oil money and military budgets to force the Palestinians into being their fighting weapons. How can a people so abused and terrorized, even by their supposed Islamic brothers be expected to build a country?
And if that is what they want, why do they aquire weapons and constantly build, plan or carry out attacks on Israel who just wants to be left alone?
What good does it do the Palestinians to have Hamas running their lives, and to have rockets in their supposed country?
Then they went to Lebanon and ruined that country.
2. Israel already cleared settlements in an attempt at Peace with the terrorists. How did that work out?
3. If Hamas wants peace, THEY have to come to the table.
Of course, no one has mentioned that Gaza is, in essence, a concentration camp, with the Israelis not allowing the Red Cross/Red Crescent or media, reporters, and medical aid in the country.
Yeah, someone put me in a position like that I'd hardly call it peace. I'd call it prison. And I'd fight like h*ll to get out.
A spokesman for Hamas' military wing, Abu Ubaida, said its rocket capabilities had not been affected by the conflict.
"We hereby stress that our rockets are being developed and are piling up, and that the enemy will receive more rockets and God willing, our rockets will hit more targets," he said in a news conference broadcast live on Hamas' al-Aqsa TV. *****
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7836869.stm
With the continuing talk like that, much of this "concentration camp" comparisons is off base. I cannot but blame Hamas for that situation currently. When Sharon pulled all Israeli's out of Gaza, many by force, all Hamas had to do was be peaceful. The world would have sent billions in aid, but instead they chose violence and hate. The hard-liners in Israel said they couldn't be trusted, and all Hamas has done is prove them right... Yet another opportunity lost.
Showing a picture of rockets and planes does not show the difference in their use, or the reason for their use, which I am sure the poster understands. Without acts of terrorism the planes would not be in use. There is no real reason for the rocket's use other than to provoke action against civilians who are abused to incite dishonest comments like that one. It seems like the poster is playing right along with Hamas - against the Palestinian people in order to favor the terrorists who use them as fodder. Rockets are a weapon of terror used terrorize Israel by firing at civilians purposefully, and the reason Israel reacted with the planes. The rockets symbolically represent the death and end to Israel that Hamas wants more than nationhood of peace for its people.
The planes try to concentrate on targets that are threatening Israel - in a defensive use. The rockets are offensive and terrorist. If the weapons were reversed I wonder if your sentiments would be as different as the outcome would?
To terrorize Israel into taking defensive measures to protect itself which include controlling shipments and contact into Gaza is not the same thing as a concentration camp. If you recall the concentration camp was where innocent people were massed on their way to being worked to death and murdered, where their possessions and valuable, even the gold in their teeth was used to finance a genocidal extermination effort. That kind of hate exists only on one side of this conflict. To call Gaza a concentration camp is more if the same kind of dishonesty that deliberately keeps the Palestinians fighting and being used to ensure there is no peace and there is no constructive effort that that the Palestinians can make to build their own state.
Putting yourself into an distorted imaginary position and saying you'd do the same thing is hardy relevant. I also doubt if you were a Palestinian that you would support Hamas and this endless terrorism and violence. At least I hope not because it would not going to lead to any solution other than your own misfortune.
Institutionally being used by terrorists to focus on civilian casualties that they themselves force on their own civilians to prove the validity of a cause is bad logic and support for terrorism only extends the misery on both sides for no reason. Being used as a shield of deliberate terrorism is a violation of every Palestinian's human rights which you would then be supporting.
In order to feel they way you do about this subject one must be selectively shown assymetricly emotional images, in short, you are shown unexplained violence against one population and nothing but attacks by another. A morally developed person might question whether what they were being shown was objective, and whether the conclusion he was being herded into believing was truthful and seek to educate themselves.
Hamas has one purpose and only one. That is the destruction of Israel, not just defeat they mean to exterminate every man, woman, and child. That is their purpose and their stated mission.
Now who is the terrorist?
Israel lost? Guess Sean has been listening to a different news channel.
As for the nonsense idea that Israel only blockaded Hamas and Gaza in the last few weeks, it's rubbish as this article dated July 2007 clearly states.
Face facts, Gaza is a concentration camp. What did the Israelis expect?
That's certainly being very kind to the Gazans isn't it? Keep them from working. Relying on welfare. What do people expect when they pick up guns? And rockets?
And as for the idea that Hamas is determined on the destruction of Israel, that's rubbish. Hamas, when it was elected tried to negotiate with the Israelis. This article which I found in a 3 SECOND GOOGLE search states that in January of 2006:
So, Col. George, who's the terrorist now?
Apparently you only watch Fox News.
> its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a
> fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the
> mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within
> the boundaries of the occupied territories.
Calling for full trust of Hamas because they began to budge
a little bit, under pressure or total destruction, towards
where they should have been all along as a responsible
governing body without any display of goodwill, or period
of building up trust, and then immediately saying that just
because Hamas claimed to have changed their covenant
that it is rubbish to now even bring up that it was ever
there .... well, I don't get it ... is that a serious point?
> commercial sector and drive more people into the hands of extremists,
> according to a report published yesterday.
There are lots of statements of bravado from the Hamas side of this
exchange. They are claiming victory and of course predicting Israel's
demise. Who knows if they are right. Personally I hope not.
This action Israel took in 2006 against Hezbollah was
to accomplish strategic objectives. There is outrage when
Israel protects itself, of even if Israel so much as makes a
statement, most can see through that. Some, mostly in the
brainwashed radical Islamic areas get nothing else to consider
but the propaganda.
I would expect the Hamas people to be saying just what they
are saying whether they win or lose. It is the average Palestinian
who now has information from outside to compare with what
Hamas has been telling them. When they see rockets being set
up for fire around them, they know what's going on and where it
will lead. What are they going to think? Do they want war, or
is it Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranians?
There is a good chance this action by Israel, will have a net
effect. Certainly nothing else they do has any effect.
In terms of being a terrorist, terrorism is not violence, or even
war. Just because someone being mugged fights back does not
equate them to the mugger. I just do not understand the logic
in that kind of statement.
It is not Israel's intention to stop factories from working. You
can think and say that, but Israel well knows that the more
prosperous the Palestinians are in the long term the better the
peace will be and the less they will go back to fighting. They
just have no choice - they have to let guns and rockets and
other weapons into the area bound for Hamas - the terrrorists.
The hard-liners in Israel said they couldn't be trusted, and all Hamas has done is prove them right... Yet another opportunity lost.
John S., Jan 19, 2009, 10:35am EST
Al Taqiyya and Kitman seem to cover the seeming disparity that I see between what Hamas says ... has been "saying" for years, and what it does. We might call it, "outwitting" our opponent using any means necessary.
http://www.pimes.org/paper15.htm
" . . Taqqiyyah, theological term, advises the individual and the community not only to hide their true beliefs but even to profess the opposite where this is to their advantage. Kitman, a politico-theological terms, means never revealing one’s true intentions, especially when dealing with Kafirs “the Infidel”.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996016204&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
Kitman may extend to cover the secrets of the whole state at the time of war and peace where a person who is loyal to his people cannot divulge to anyone or tell the enemy about his country’s affairs.
It's a human condition that we do this, that they do this. We protect our country, our secrets, the details of some of our defenses and plans. It's strategic and calculated and logical in war. Which means in this instance that just because Hamas claims to be the victim, claims it is not the agressor, claims it wants peace loudly, continuously, violently, (and all very stragetically) , doesn't necessarily make it so.
It's akin to telling someone, "Yes, I will be there," while crossing your fingers behind your back and never intending to be there at all. Or like planning a surprise party ... sometimes we might even lie outright to the one being surprised in order to insure what we perceive as the correct and desired outcome at the party. +shrug+ In Hamas et al's case though, the outcome of their kitman irt the surprise parties they plan is always much less fun for the one "surprised." And they've been partying a long time on our willingness to take up for what we perceive as, or who we are told are the downtrodden, the underdog, the little guy ... the victim.
Does this fall under Al Taqiyya? Kitman? Both?
"There are lots of statements of bravado from the Hamas side of this
exchange. They are claiming victory and of course predicting Israel's
demise. . . I would expect the Hamas people to be saying just
what they are saying whether they win or lose. "
Bruce K., Jan 20, 2009, 3:36am EST
And this, is it Al Taqiyya? Kitman? Both?
Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from
its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a
fortnight,
Quoted from http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/12/israel
Hamas's behavior is the main reason for Palestinian shortages/economic hardship in recent years. There is about to be another opportunity here out of all this, billions in aid promised; what will the people there do... throw it away again with Hamas? I hope not, I really do.
Nothing really else needs to be said.
So, they lost the PR war for sure, tactical gains vis-a-vis Hamas remain to be seen as of yet and the Home Front is now changing its mind about the wisdom of the war.
I wouldn't consider that a victory for Israel. Not by a long shot.
SPK said:
> The concept that political disputes can be bombed into submission -
> that populations could be "taught a lesson" by starving, bombing,
> or rocketing them, left Washington, DC on Air Force One this afternoon.
This is not what is happening, the Palestinians are not being bombed
into submission, and most of them well know that. They know first hand
what is going on, and to use the one-size-fits all comic book view, or the
false "Imperial Israel" point of view just makes matters worse.
You cannot have or reward a government that exists to destroy another
nation. The fact that lies do not work is the reason this keeps going on.
People know the U.N. is highly biased in its votes, radical Islam is
the cause of the U/N/ being broken - another great feat for radical
Islam they can be proud of. The more people learn, the more they see
the incongruities of the simple stories they are offered to explain this.
The Palestinians have an election coming up. We will see if Hamas can
spin all of this to blame it on the Israelis, and if the Palestinians people
are gullible or dominated enough by Hamas to believe them and vote
to continue this.
As to whether it is a victory, that is not even the question, let alone a
question. It is a tactic to stop rockets, and see what the results are.
If the Palestinians want to come back twice as hard, what good does
it do anyone? If they want to keep letting weapons and rockets be
smuggled into their midst and fired, what good does it do. How does
that lead to peace?
Winning is peace for both sides, not just withholding peace from
Israel. People who have an agenda for the Palestininins from the
Arab side that is not good for the Palestinian peolpe are what is
prolonging this.
There was a good quote by Charles Temm on one of my articles,
don't know if it was original:
Too many of the Arab governments are willing to fight the Israelis
to the last Palestinian.
Maybe if the world sees this better today than yesterday both sides
can be said to have won.
I guarantee you would be much happier and much safer spending time in that terrorist state of Israel, where there is complete democracy. I am not saying I totally agree with everything that Israel decides to do, but I do know that their goal is to attack the targets of the exact people who are attacking Israel and the exact locations of Hamas' weapons. They even go so far as to warn the women and the children to get out of the buildings before they attack - as opposed to the Hamas style of putting their beloved women and their darling children directly in the line of fire to save their own sorry assess.
There are so many lies and so much propaganda being promulgated by those who support Hamas. Why don't we ever see photos and stories about all the innocent Israeli citizens who have been harmed by the Hamas attacks?
My father was born in Jerusalem, way before it became the state of Israel. Jews and Arabs were living side by side and both were living in Israel.
In 1981, I visited Israel and stayed at the home of a friend of my distant cousin. This friend's name was Tsipi Livni. She brought me to visit the West Bank to meet some of the settlers. I met this lovely young lady, about the same age as I was, young, not so strong and powerful, just a young lady - could have been any of my friends. She had been allowed to settle on the West Bank for a very reasonable cost because the goal was to create settlements on the West Bank. The goal was not to hurt anybody else.
I really appreciate Bruce's attempts to counteract all the support that this group seems to be offering to those poor Hamas "victims." Unfortunately, I do not study politics and I am not knowledgeable enough to counteract any facts that are stated and probably mis-stated. But I do know that the Israelis took barren land and created towns and culture and cities. During my time in Israel, I stayed at a beautiful club med type resort called the Neviot Club. That land was returned to Egypt in an agreement several years later - and that beautiful country club was demolished.
Read a book called "Icon Of Evil" for a story as sad an unbelieveable as the Nazis themselves. The mufti was responsible for Jews being run out of Iraq and Iran before WWII and the short lived attempts for those countries which had Nazi factions trying to take the country to the Nazis.
The story and history is fascinating. The man organized pograms against Jews in the area, and before WWII tried to run a plan to dump poison into the reservoir at Tel Aviv to kill all the Jews there.
This man became an honorary Nazi and lived in Berlin during much of the war where he helped organize Muslim SS divisions, called the Hansar divisions in Eastern Europe to assist the Nazis with their murder of the Jews.
While a lot of Muslims got a along with Jews fine before the war, the radical Islamics have taken over the culture and neutrality or criticism of the Palestinian cause is punished.
The only thing that be done is to stand up to the terrorists.
Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem and Adolf Hitler
History has been twisted according to personal FEELINGS and not to reality. Present times as well.
As a matter of fact even this last war, in order to destroy the few properties left to Gaza civilian inhabitants (Gaza since some 50 years is alike a concentration camp with restrictions in foods, goods, culture, etc.) is now quite similar to Warsaw Ghetto as mentioned by Sean.
Even as Jewish, I wonder how come we expect Hamas, to whom we refuse to talk - and this means that we DISRESPECT it - to accept living with a disrespecting neighbor? As we we were going to accept our own neighbor to store his trash in our garden ...
And because we would not accept such behavior, on top of it he would destroy our house.
No one even mentioned what went on in ME on November 4th, 2008. Of course, you all were too busy expecting the end of Bush era.
And now what? Has God suddenly authorized us to kill children, to bomb UN schools, to destroy hospitals, to hide the name of war criminals who may not be able to travel any more?
In fact, IMO, the Israel's government, is fully responsible and is committing suicide on behalf of Israel as a long lasting nation.
I do plan to put my money where my mouth is and visit Gaza and the West Bank.