I Am A Minority

thanks for posting to commentsneeded.gather.com

You said it so well. I think I'm an agnostic but I'm not sure.

this is nicely written,
but regardless
your a beautiful person!

I think this is absolutly marvelous.

Excellent essay, Chana!! Although I was born Jewish, I accept all religions, and admire them too. We do have some unique holidays in our religion, and they are wonderful. Hanukkah, Passover, Yom Kippur, & Rosh Hashanah are just a few of our great holidays to celebrate. But it is still nice to go to a Christmas party and sing carols too. I am very happy to embrace my religion - I love being Jewish!

I don't know about the other three, (CC, Sandi or John) but I know you are in a minority group also Peter and I am cool with that. I think John Lennon said it best All you need is love. Pretty much captures the essence in my humble opinion.

I was raised Catholic and yep, had to wear the school uniform.

David I don't know if you know this, but according to Halachah (Jewish Law) we are not supposed to differentiate between those born into Judaism and those who convert. You actually break a commandment if you out someone who is a convert. It all has to do with making the covenant with G-D on Mount Sinai, if you were not there you would not be party to the covenant (contract) so all Jews before that time, at that time and to come whether "born" into it or "converted" into it were there. According to Halachah once you convert it is as if it always was, like a grandfather clause. I know this because I used to have some very interesting discussions with my Rabbi.

Not having a problem with Chrstianity shows gret generosity of spirit. Let me play Devil's advocate... so what does you hubby / brother / Dad do for a living? Doctor, dentist, lawyer, banker (money lender) jeweller maybe? Sterotypes> No actually, those trades are traditionally "Jewish" because the Christian authorities in Europe right up to the 19th century did not allow jews to be members of the trade guilds. There were no Jewish carpenters, smiths, printers, no Jewish weavers though there were plenty of Jewish cloth merchants, Jews could not be Thatchers or plumbers or masons. These were Christian trades. And that is only scratching the surface of the injustices.

When Oliver Cromwell allowed the Jewish religion to be practiced openly in Britain in 1656 after a gap of around 300 years it was with the proviso that the Torah and Talmud contained noothing that contradicted Christian teaching. When the idea was picked up around Europe it meant a lot of very interesting stuff was lost from the religion.

You would have every right to be a tad resentful.

I wonder if you would have felt differently had you been raised in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood, as I was. The schools were open but almost empty on Jewish holidays, while they closed down entirely during xmas and easter 'vacations'. I took advantage of both, without believing in either. Just another proof that atheism is the best of all worlds.

Thank you for posting to this group whose only purpose is to thank you for posting to this group.

Chana, I grew up so insulated that the first time I heard the expression, Is the Pope Catholic?" I didn''t know the answer. My entire neighborhood was Jewish, with the exception of one family. At that time the area of Queens that I lived in was so heavily Jewish that we didn't have Christmas carols in school. The only mention of Christmas was on the school calendar, for Christmas break. It wasn't till I went to college that I finally started learning about other religions and feel more comfortable accepting them and the belief system of various religions. I finally learned a lot more about Christianity from my ex-husband, who as it turns out did not know enough to be able to answer all my questions about the religion.

I grew up a wasp male. I was tall for my age. What minority was I? I was a yankee living in a small town in west Texas. My accent was like the men on the radio. I didn't hate blacks (so I got a label one doesn't see much these days N____-lover). (Now that I think if it I still deserve the label.) So I had a minority status. I acquired others later as I went through high school and college. I was the guy with the weird ideas.

But my minority status was by choice. I could "pass" when it was convenient. I really benefited more than I suffered from being a minority. It gave me a much broader perspective and prevented me from "running with the crowd" which saved me money and lots of other problems.

I hear you. Being a Catholic in the South gives me an inkling. All my time overseas also highlighted that, getting stated at because I was blond and pale compared to the others gives one insight in to the fact that many of us are in "minority" in some way or another.

Being proud of one's place is a good thing, regardless of whether its religious, ethnic, or whatever. And I do think most of us walk the same path in our lives though we may wander at the fringes a bit, its just sometimes some don't acknowledge it as such.

Okay, I am not really too religious and I don't knock anyone who does, you believe in whatever you want.
My daughter is Christian, my mom was raised Protestant, and my grandmother on my dad's side went to a Methodist church.
I believe GOD is all around us, or some type of spirit. As long as I believe in myself and live my life to the fullest, I am blessed. I am blessed with family and friends who are there for me as I am for them.

I was raised Southern Baptist in a little town of about 500.
I do not embrace the religion I was forced to participate in, I am spiritual,bodacious, open minded and in the best of times feel a kinship with all living things.
I also have alot af growing and learning to do......
Thank you for your post, hey I am proud of you, too-- for what its worth...Hugs.

Ian, I started out in my history major in Jewish history so I know what you are talking about. I know what the Crusaders did to the Jews especially to a bad end in Worms, Mainz and Speyer. And yes we were kicked out of some of the best countries in Europe, sometimes more than once. In 1492, Isabella kicked out all of the Jews.

My biological father was a jack-of-all-trades but primarily worked with carpentry (kind of ironic huh?). His family owned a resort hotel. My mother's parent's were artists as was her avocation. To support us she did various types of work, mainly accounting. My stepfather was a writer. If you go to my page I have spotlighted an article about hiim.

Great essay, Chana. I would hope that most Christians know a bit about the Jewish faith, since that's where we have our first roots. But, there are probably some who don't know... Our church celebrates the Passover Sedar each year. We try to get to know what we can about the Jewish faith.

When I was a kid, we always lived near a Catholic church, so most of the kids were Catholic. I remember how lonely Saturday mornings were - while they were in confession and catechism.

I played the violin and was a bookworm - both setting me apart from others in my neighborhood.

Ariel, I actually know many people raised as you were because of my Jewish history major. Most of them accepted me even though I was and am reform. The school that I went to had a really large campus and I used to grab something out of the machine just before my Jewish Philosophy course because by that time I was HUNGRY! This one women loved to come over and make a big fuss over what the ingredients were and if it was kosher or not. One day she wore pants to class and I said in kind of a loud voice I thought you were Orthodox. She said I knew she was so why did I say that, I mentioned she was wearing pants. So she said Oh, I am Neo-Orthodox. I just said yeah, whatever.

Charles, There was a women in some of my classes in college who had blue eyes, blonde and was Jewish. Some of the other Jews in our program gave her a hard time to. They were always asking her Are you really Jewish? I used to defend her against these idiots.

When I got a little older I realized.
The door flew open and the lights flicked on
I embraced what I was,
what I am.
I am a minority.

It isn't clear if the light you saw was that you were a Jew or an individual, i.e. a minority of one. I went to Catholic school for eight years and got my share of that collective indoctrination. I have for many years been a self-styled libertarian humanist, that is, I believe in people and I believe in freedom. I am proud to be a member of the smallest minority--me and the largest majority, the human race.

Good for you! Well written article about your feelings on your faith. In the community I live in it is about a 50/50 ratio of Christians and Jewish. I of course am a Wiccan so that puts me way on the other side of both faiths. My friends know who I am and what I celebrate and most know why. Any religious activity should be met with respect from any body no matter their faith or ho they chose to practice it.
Blessed Be.

I'm rolling here...after what I got for Christmas! I'm ready to pee my pants.

I'll see your Jewish female with my agnostic...and raise you a gay. Pair of queens...I win!

I'm not Catholic, either. I'm one of the 'Frozen Chosen'. I was religiously raised an Episcopalian, though I have left the church. Many said we were very similar to Catholics, but I must have belonged to a different branch because I never saw anything that resembled the other. I let others believe what they want. It's none of my business.

Rob, the 'Frozen Chosen', sorry I had to laugh. We don't have heating oil yet and it is not all that comfortable temperature wise in here, so I guess that makes me one of the Frozen Chosen too. I also think you have a joker in your deck somewhere. Thanks for your comments!

Chris, I think you know I am happy to accept objective criticism. I respect your opinion. I was brought up totally opposite from you, totally secular. Most of the people we associated with were also totally secular. When I finally met people like me it just somehow clicked, that they were a part of me and I was a part of them. I have to agree with you that first and foremost, no matter what else we are, we are human beings.

Carmel, my mom and dad (stepdad) were married by a wiccan.

Chana, as a Catholic I was osteracized when my parents divorced. They still wanted Mom's envelope of money, just not her. Then as a teen I tried to get birth control at the local pharmacy, the pharmacist went to my church and would not allow me to fill the prescription. Then I married a man that had been married in the church. (Very short marriage) They will not recognize our marriage as real and said they may bless us if we get to ten years. (Which is in two months) I feel very sad that even though I was a teacher in the church and baptized my kids there, we do not belong. We were raised with much guilt and hell fire threats.
As an adult I am embracing new religions and learning as much as possible. But I understand your point completely, even school lunch menus cater to Lent.

My group is growing bigger and bigger by the day. So from now on, I can only leave a simple comment, sorry for that.
Thanks for posting to my group, Anythingwriting

Kelly, I have had friends who went through some similar experiences as you. I just don't understand it. I thought Jesus was all about love and acceptance.

You , my dear are Bless with common sense,,, some can learn from you,,, I am raised Catholic ,,, I have known many from different religions ,,, never had any problem,,, live and let live,,, help if you're asked and can,,, thats me,,, Bless you,,,


Spicecomments.com - Thanks Comments

Go, Chana, go.

I am a Jewish, divorced woman with two children. I think I qualify for some group! :)

I am Jewish and tell everyone that the synagogue I don't attend is Orthodox. That confuses some people, but it's the only way I can explain my beliefs as they are today. That would still qualify me as a minority, I suppose.

For sharing at Endless Points, we say

I was raised Southern Baptist, in a very unusual church for the denomination. Yes, we still had the sermons where everyone else was going to Hell, but they have accepted things from the very beginning that were not popular from the beginning. Either way, I attend a Lutheran church, because the pastor, and many of the parishoners are good people and there is learning and fellowship that raises my spirit. I am not select on a denomination, and I do not feel anyone has all the answers to G_d, but I respect others beliefs as valid as my own.

I am Unitarian Universalist. I believe in respect for all people regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, age, etc. I think, as you said, that everyone has to find their own spiritual path, and there are many ways to the same destination. I miss my UU church, which disbanded due to finances, and I am going to a Unity church now. It's different and I'm not sure yet how I feel about it. UU fits my path best so far.

Thanks for sharing.

"Baruch ata Adonai" (sp?)

Mugg, you were really close and get an A for effort.

I was raised Presbyterian/Christian but now I belong to a meditation group.

I love how Judaism has the coming of age ceremony with Bar Mitzvah or Bat Mitzvah. Kids need this stepping stone. My youngest son recently attended his cousin's Bat Mitzvah......

Lovely poem and indicative of a lovely spirit, Chana. I also lived in a Catholic neighborhood as a child. My siblings and I were the only children in the neighborhood who were not Catholic and who attended a public school. I envied the Catholic kids school uniforms because my mom made us dress weird due to the fundamentalist Christian religion we were raised in. We didn't celebrate Christmas "because Jesus birthday is everyday" and I felt sad when we returned to school after xmas break and I could not say, along with the majority of kids, what I got for Xmas. Being a realist, at five years old, I advised my Catholic four year old neighbor that there was no Santa Claus. Further more, I advised her, if your heart stops beating, you die. Her mother came to our house and complained to my mother as a result.

I am not affiliated with a religion now nor have I been all of my adult life. I am spiritual, however. One of my daughters belongs to a Methodist church and is Christian and the other is a convert to Islam. I am intrigued by the Jewish faith and did not realize that one could convert either. I wonder if there is a synagogue in my town in Alaska. The Jewish faith seems fascinating to me due to the Jewish people I know. All the people of Jewish faith I know are very intelligent, well-read, and seem open-minded. I find this very attractive.
Thanks for a thought provoking topic.

I was raised in Christianity. I went to church every Sunday, sang in the choir. I even played Mary in a Christmas pagent. Then some very bad things happened and I starting seeing things in a different light. I knew that wasn't the right path for me. I've been exploring the Wiccan religion and it seems to fit best with me. I've still got a lot to learn but thats the path I'm taking.


Also Chana, I wanted to let you know that I didn't apply for that program. Tom finally got his unemployment money and we have an appointment next week to get help for our heating bills. Thanks anyway.

Like most little children, I looked out my bedroom window one night and saw a light in the distance and thought that it was the light of God. I knew very little about belief because I grew up in a home that was critical of any faith. I held that experience in my heart and began to build my own quite faith. I have been in and out of churches and swim around many belief systems but do not have a clear and strong connection. That is my choice at this point. I feel I am still learning.

Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22) He said that to a Gentile woman beside a well in Samaria who was struggling with how best to worship. Celebrate your Jewishness! Without the Jews ... we got nothin'. I'm a Christian.

Chana,
I'm intrigued - not by anything sensible, but who is that gun weilding lady in your profile pic. It isn't Cagney or Lacy but she looks familiar :-)

I'm not all that familiar with Jewish history except there it intersects with British history and the early development of civilisation. What did the Romans really do for us? Not a lot but they were very good at bigging themselves up.

Through looking at the Persians, Babylonians and Assyrians I have come across quite a bit of Jewish tradition but I'm afraid I find Zoroastrianism (the parent of Judeaism according to most sources) more interesting.

I'm sure your Dad was a great carpenter. One of the effects of ghettoisation in Europe was that Jewish communities needed carpenters and other tradesmen and Christian tradesmen were reluctant to work for them fearing the disapproval of the church.

Another irony is how much of our current civilisation we owe to those Jewish comunities. Throughout the medieval era Christianity was opposed to all learning except religious learning. So much mathematical knowledge as well as medicine etc. was preserved in the Jewish communities. Another respository of ancient knowledge was in the Christian monastic sects which always had a healthy disrespect for Papal authority.

It's quite fascinating to devle into but one soon learns that much of the official history we are taught in schools is totally unreliable.

I don't think there is only one path that leads us to G-D.

It's True, One way. If you refuse to read and study God's word you will not be sure of anything )l
I was amazed to learn that most Jews know less about God's word than Born again Christians. I think it may be up to 80% of Christians in the USA know very little or nothing about God's word. Thank you for the post

Daniel, Do you mean the TaNaKah (the Jewish Bible) or the Christian Bible when you refer to G-D's word? We differentiate these for obvious reasons. Have you ever read any of the Talmud?

Ian, you bring up some interesting points. The word ghetto was actually coined to refer to an area lved in by Jews in a city in Italy (sorry I cannot remember which one). Jews had been ghettoized since having to leave Israel. I have to disagree with Zoroastrianism (the parent of Judeaism according to most sources) more interesting according to my secularand religious education Judism was the first monotheistic religion. Also the Moslems were the keepers of a great amount of the flame of ancient Greek knowledge too. Finally, yes he was a good carpenter, he was good at many trades (except being a husband and father).

Oh and Ian you being British should recognize that gun toting mama I use for my avatar. It is Diana Rigg playing Mrs. Emma Peel from the British TV (Imported to the USA) show The Avengers.

Interesting essay and perspective. I enjoyed reading it

Chana, one of the things I love about American culture is how we adopt/adapt holidays from other cultures. As long as it has food or alcohol we nab it. I have a Jewish friend, actually she’s Unitarian – a Jewish Unitarian she claims, who has never met a holiday she didn’t like. One year she had me helping her wrap Chanukah presents for the kids, which took some time. I thought we were done and then she announced that we had to wrap Christmas presents… a closet full of Christmas presents. Oh, she always goes out every year to cut down a Christmas tree, each spring she does Easter eggs, and she used to host a Seder dinner for all of her friends.

As far myself, unlike you, I didn’t really envy my friends who were tied more into their religions. For awhile I was stuck going to mass and then I kept declaring everything my parents did as a sin so my dad, a man who spent a year in the seminary, bribed me with ice cream and a game of Monopoly and that is how I became a non-Catholic.

I agree though, that Catholic school girls had rocking uniforms if they knew how to work them.

OK, I actually know nothing about Catholic school uniforms. What I was referring to is the Catholic girls where I grew up always got a new outfit for Easter. Maybe that is a Boston and vicinity custom. I was always jealous that they got these really pretty outfits. I didn't actually know what Catholic meant. I didn't really know much about religion at all. Being brought up totally seculat from a totally secular family (parents, grandparents) can do that.

Abnd th think I was jealous of the Cathlic girls because they did not have to worry about the other girls wearing something nicer than I, great post~

Catholic - Ha! You never get over being raised catholic, although I have a strong supsicion that holds true for being raised in the strict jewish faith too. In a way all that talk about guilt is funny - yet true. No one can lay a guilt trip on you like a catholic or jewish mother.

I grew up in a strict catholic household and community - ha. You know they wouldn't allow me to go to their all catholic - run by nuns - kindergarden, because I was a bastard child. One of the first words I learned.

That meant, I was automatically ostracized before I ever entered first grade, they might as well have branded my forehead.

Lucky for me when we switched to high school, I was chosen for the out of towner class (there were a 100 children - so they just split it down the middle) and things got a lot better for me after that for a number of reasons.

Yup, we all got new Easter dresses every year. Religion was taught like a regular class and when in the fourth grade they had their first - heathen - a protestant child, they basically let her out of class.

Chana - Minority is not what I think of when I think faith:)

As far as beliefs - I don't care what other people believe, occasionally I am intrigued by it and want to know more, but overall my beliefs have turned to spirituality in a different sense.

I've moved on from the catholic faith of my youth, but I can tell you that the first time I entered a protestant church (at 13 years of age) I thought God might strike me dead. The day I revoked my authorization to deduct the church tax - a legal practise in Germany - at age 40 - I had the same feeling - God might strike me dead.

Basically I've decided that I am quite willing and happy to donate, but I'm a big girl - I can decide who receives my charity and religion has nothing to do with it.

Funny, when I wrote this just now - it reminded me that I was once denied help and food by a big catholic church in Houston, because I wasn't a registered church member. This Christmas I helped bring a little cheer to someone who just happened to be jewish - well, at least I live what I preach - pun not so intended.

Ah - but the holidays - well if you look close enough they were originally all pagan - right of passage and change of seasons, celebration of light out of the darkness of winter. It's all good and I'll drink a glass of cheer with anyone - muslim - christian - jew - who cares? I don't.

I do wish to go on record though to say that there is nothing more dangerous in this world than a fanatic believer - no matter which faith it is - it's wrong, period!

Rose, even though I was brought up secular I can relate to the guilt thing. Oh My Yes! We were definetly brought up with the guilt. I so understand that! As far as what happened to you, well to my knowledge it is actually against Jewish law to treat people in this manner. Shame on them! When Hubby and I needed help to get our electric bill paid (there was a mixup with the electric company) several Protestant groups stepped forward and helped us, they did not care what religion we were, only that we needed help. We did get help from a Jewish group, but only because I am Jewish. I did not know the Catholic church still thithed.

First, Chanochka, dear, this is a brilliant, heartfelt poem, one of the best and most poignant I ever read on Gather. Second, I was raised in a secular family, in a country that was officially atheistic, but permeated with Russian Orthodox culture, with all its positive sides and prejudices. I've got a serious interest in religious affairs only when being a young student, during the memorable perestroika years. And - believe me or not - even though I've chosen Russian Orthodoxy, I always felt some deep inner attraction to Jewish people and Jewish faith - and considered it my duty to oppose anti-Semitism in any form, regardless of the consequences. Maybe, if we accept for a moment (like some Hasidim do) that reincarnation is real, I can't exclude the suggestion that once I was a Jew... in one of my past lives. ;-)

Shalom veahava, from the very depth of my heart - S.

Sveta, I think its everyone's responsibility to fight all forms of bigotry, whether they be racial, religious, national or what have you. The differences in life are actually a beautiful thing and draw us closer to each other, if we let them. I understand what you are speaking of because I have known Jews who immigrated from Russia. While the party line was "no religion" there was much anti-semitism there. Also if you think about it Christianity in a way is decended from Judaism. I had a really great friend (we have lost touch, very long story) who was a born again Christian. We did discuss religion, but many times came to the point where we agreed to disagree. I don't think my path is the answer for everyone, I don't think any path is the answer for everyone, we must find our own path.

thanks for posting to commentsneeded.gather.com.

Chana ~ This is a very good Article. I have not read all of the comments yet -- but I will. And I'll comment more on this Article.

I think this statement is a generalization that I do not believe to be true . . .
"I made an off hand remark that most Jews know more about Christianity, than Christians know about Judaism. ~ Chana

I do agree with you here . . .

"I actually think it is good to learn about other people's backgrounds and religions. It expands your horizons and may give you greater insight into your path. I don't think there is only one path that leads us to G-D." ~ Chana

This is FEATURED in PROPHETIC PULSE ~ A Paradigm Shift

Daniel, Do you mean the TaNaKah (the Jewish Bible)

Yes ) and I love the reading Torah, and Neviim and so on but not the Talmud I have not. I have wonderful Jew friends.

I think some Christians, like me, worry about being perceived as rude if we ask a question about someone's religion. I do wonder about something, though. I've heard Jewish people say that both their religion and nationality is Jewish.
Americans usually name the country of their family's origin, such as Italian, German, etc., My religion is Catholic, but it's not my nationality.

wonders if anyone can find his typos

Jan, Jewish is more than a religion; it is actually a racial subgroup and we have a separate culture. Chana, I grew up in New York, where Jewish culture and religion is very predominant. But I lived in Southern Calif. for 4 years, and what a rude awakening when I went to buy my first menorah, and I had to find a Judaica store in a religious neighborhood. In New York, you can get it anywhere. Did I feel like an oddball!

Chana, yeah Muslims were great preservers of ancient knowledge. I once posted here an article titled "Our Debt To Islam" That really stirred up a hornets nest (which might have been my intention of course.) Britain though had Jewish communities from very early while our contact with Muslims was mostly confined to having wars against them.
I'll find you some sources on Zoroastrianism.
Interesting point about ghettos. There was a documentary on UK television last year about an Orthodox community in London that obtained permission from Greater London to put a red wire around the area of Noth London where they live as it permits them to do stuff on the sabbath. The aread marked by the wire has a special name but I can't remember it.
At the end of the programme a secular Rabbi commented : "It sums up the Jewish religion, 5000 years ago Moses gave us Gods law and ever since we've been trying to find loopholes."

I was born and raised catholic - but lived all around the world, mixing with people from a lot of religions, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh etc.

I educated myself out of my religion (and any other) and am now an agnostic.

I respect any person who has religious convictions as long as they do not try to convert me!

Jan, ask away. Being brought up secular I am not as knowledgeble as many other Jews, but If I can answer your question I will. In Judaism learning is a Mitzvah the literal meaning of that is a commandment, but it is also used to mean a good deed unto G-D.

Ishbel, we do not believe in proseletizing. In fact it is very hard to convert to Judaism. In your initial interview with a Rabbi to convert they go out of their way to discourage you. I think it is because they want to make sure that this is not something you just want to try on like a new set of clothes, but something you feel in your heart and soul, something you are.

Chana ... good job. I loved the whole article ... and all the comments.

I have a copy of the Tanakh; Christians call Old Testament)
and the B’rit Hadashah (gospels and letters that comprise New Testament which were written by Jews and sent to gatherings of Jews and gentiles believing in Jesus.)

“For out of Tziyon will go forth Torah,
the Word of Adonai from Yerushalayim.”
—Yesha‘yahu (Isaiah) 2:3 Tanakh

I lived in a Jewish neighborhood in Prairie Village Kns. I actually knew the Tanakh better than the women there. But I had no idea about the practise of current Judaism and their Temple culture. I'm still woefully short of understanding current religious culture.
I, and I think most Bible studying Christians, only know how it was practised in times previous to the days of Jesus.
I've learned more since being on Gather and looking things up in response to articles or comments by Gather Jews than I've learned in my life. It's been helpful.

Jan S, you asked about the overlap of nation and religion.
Because of the dominance of western civilisation and its geographical nation states we lost sight of the true meaning of nation. In the original sense a nation was a tribe or super-tribe with a distinct culture and usually its own religion or belief system.

Think of the Native American societies. The Apache, Sioux and Navajo were tribes, also called nations while, taking the Apache as an example because I have information on them available, the Kiowa, Coyotero and Chiricahua were sub - tribes or clans.

Similarly the Nation of Israel was all the tribes (son's) of a real or mythical patriarch, Israel. These tribes included the tribes or clans of Levi, Judah and Benjamin among others. The modern Israeli state was created by the USA, Britain and France after word war two and is a quite different entity.

In between the wars the region was administered by Britain (Palestine) and France (Lebanon) under mandate from the League of Nations because the Turkish Empire which had ruled the area for over 1000 years, partly as the Christian Byzantine Empire, later as the Muslim Ottoman Empire had collapsed in 1918.

One of the reasons Africa has been so troubled is the colonial powers withdrew having created artificial, European style nation states based on geographical boundaries without respect for tribal differences. Thus the Tutsi and the Watusi who have never been able to live side by side were forced to share a nation.

An interesting point is how the way of addressing monarchs changed. Before the Catholic Church became the dominant political force kings were tribal. Vercingetorix, - apart from being the first cousin of Asterix in the comic strip - was the very real King of the Gauls, not the King of Gaul, the area of southern and western France designated Gaul by the Romans but King of all the Gauls ewherever they were.

Similarly Robert the Bruce, when he wasn't palling out with Mel Gibson in Braveheart, was king of the Scots, not King of Scotland. Genseric was King of the Vandals who during his life led his nation on a long migration that took them from central Europe, parts of modern Germany, Hungary, and the Czech Republic, through Austria, France, Spain and into North Africa. but he was always King of the Vandals.

BTW the Vandals did not live up to the modern meaning of their name. They were quite civilised actually.

One of the problems the Jews have always had is they clung to this ancient notion of nationality, of otherness. Wherever they were they considered themselves a separate nation. No political leader was going to be happy with that and the more paranoid ones had no problem seeing it as a challenge to their authority. But I will not go far along that road or it will turn into a book. Modern secular jews have no problem being American or British AND Jewish but some of the more conservative sects still largely secregate themselves socially from the national community they live among.

So you see in the ancient world a nation was something quite different to its modern meaning. Hope that is clear enough as it is all from memory except the bit about the Apache.

best,
Ian

Chana! Born and raised Catholic, I got a fairly mild dose of Catholicism. Later in life (lol, my 20's) I decided that New Thought religions, mainly Unity or Religious Science (look up Ernest Holmes ... it is NOT scientology) really embodied more of what I believe. So, as a New Thought person, I am not considered "Christian", but rather part of a GASP "SECT" ... humf

My father grew up in a Jewish / Catholic home, Dad Catholic, Mom Jewish, and he talks of a very rich cultural childhood. Unfortunately, he neglected to share much of the Jewish end with us, and my grandmother probably over time stopped practicing her faith. When she died, her daughter took part of her ashes to the Ganges river to spread them there (my aunt became a Hare Krshna).

Anyway, I suppose I am rambling here, but the gist of all this is, I know we must all learn from each other. That every one hears a call to goodness, to greatness, that is real and not psychotic or irrational, and that when we answer that call, we bring peace and love to our lives and to the world.

Thanks Chana, for posting this, now go to bed and feel better!

Thanks for posting in Journey Into Poetry !

Thank you for sharing

I think organized religion as a whole is very dangerous and has historically lead to much evil. I think people should learn to think for themselves.

"Jews know more about Christianity, than Christians know about Judaism. " How true. However I disagree with the "I don't think there is only one path that leads us to G-D" view, which is why I studied and examined several before deciding.

I was born in a non-religious house, christened in an Anglican church and sent to a Baptist church. The conflicts in the various beliefs was amazing to me. Since one truth cannot contradict another, I went in search of the true path and found what I think it is.

I just don't know what our eternal father will do about my dad either hew as the best anyone could find, but he was just not religious. (He'll be resurrected, I just can't imagine that someone that great would not be given a chance at paradise)

Beautiful poetry. Did you compose it?

Beautifully written! And I agree... John Lennon said it all!

Trying to catch up!!

Thank you for posting this to the Gimme 10!!! Group