That is not my perspective on good and bad. I read a recent post here which explained patiently that homosexuality is a sin, don't blame me for what the Bible says, some of my best friends are gay. No, I reject that habit of thought.
Good behavior and bad behavior on the part of humans is not definable by a deity. "Sin" is a concept that says, God says not to do it and that is why it is wrong. Of course, it is relatively easy for me to reject this thought mode because I am an atheist. If you think that the world is run by a guy in the sky, you may have a trouble jumping this hurdle. It may be particularly hard if I say Adolf Hitler was not evil, Stalin was not evil, Saddam Hussein was not evil,. The devil did not make them slaughter innocents, lie, and do anything in the quest for power: they just had thought patterns that were extremely wrong and profoundly opposed to human values.
Look, I know I am not going to recruit you to my brain pattern, and you are not going to recruit me to yours. But the next time you let the word "sin" or the word "evil" cross your lips, realize for a minute that this is a foreign language for some of your fellow americans, and I am one of them.
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Comments: 52
Any relation to Bush W.???
Please realize, that within the Book, sin means harmful, as in; will not be ultimately to one's benifit. Surely there are things that are not to one's benifit to do, no?
They rewrite it, modernize the out of date thinking, but it can never be but a book written in days gone by and I am always shocked at the old fashion thinking going on today.....
Knight- it is interesting to look at the Bible from the viewpoint of an anthropologist. Using that lens, you might say, hey, they hung all the morality on God, but maybe what they really wanted was to create a blueprint for social order. So I am NOT saying that screwing your neighbors wife is a good plan, or murdering your cousin because he hogs the remote every time he visits.
On the other hand, the eye for an eye mentality of the old testament is something that modern americans usually reject, even if they are Christians.
Yes thats correct it is rejected because they are of the fallen race... sinful man.
If you removed justice , which is what this verse is speaking of,(maybe you already knew that and just used it to try and make some kinda of "out of context point" which is what most modern americans do) then that would only lead to more chaotic world.
If I justify myself,mine own mouth shall condemn me:if I say that I am perfect,it shall also prove me perverse. Job 9:20
Hummmm
There is no "eye for an eye" mentality in the "old testament". That is a particular form of remedy, for a very particular form of violent crime. It is not a general decree, in any part of the Book.
If men strive (fight), and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's' husband will lay upon him; and shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
The Book is not just the word "dogma" written over and over, but is an extremely complex interwoven document, with some parts providing detailed legal remedies for various "sins", given as a legal framework for a people in a very unusual circumstance. Any attempt to take such legalistic details out of context, is no more useful or informative than taking a particular legal remedy out of our current laws, and trying to make a "philosophy" based on it, or trying to discern the whole of the legal systems nature from it. Reality don't work that way, and neither does the Book.
I ask again though, if "good and bad" is not based on the judgement of a "deity", then what is it? You said in the article that some "had thought patterns that were extremely wrong and profoundly opposed to human values." But the question arises; Which "human values"? Yours? Those some you refer to?
Why are not YOUR thought patterns "wrong" according to those some who you do not approve of, just as surely as they are "wrong" by your measure? What is this "human values" stuff, if not the values of real humans?
If you refused to believe in gravity, if you were willfully ignorant of it as you evidently are with your sin, could you leap tall buildings in a single bound?
-Mark
John, not sure where you are going with your questions. Are you expressing displeasure in the concept of cultural relativism? I agree that cultural relativism as a concept can be taken way too far, and I do not propose, for example, that murder is okay as long as it is committed in Africa. I admit that the Bible is complex, of course, since it was written by many different hands and minds. The old testament law has limitations- what is wrong with saying that, Jesus said it himself.
"Please be aware I have never killed a fellow human, had sex outside of marriage, or stolen anything. . . "
You stuck in your thumb and pulled out a plum and said, "What a good boy am I!"
Captain, you've just stolen God's glory. . .
Do you mean to tell me that you stand morally guilty before the thrice Holy God?
-Mark
It's funny for me to apply that notion of a reality that does not care about our opinion to climate change. I am changing the subject, bad thing, sorry. But some Christians figure, me not worry about climate, God in charge. My opinion sort of applies your dictum- climate change don't care what you think of it.
It is worthy of note that those among us who have never killed may however have failed to interfere with murders, famines, and rapes on the other side of the planet. Doing the right thing has now become complicated by guilts of omission or guilts of neglect in a miserable world.
That was me at 13. At this point the whole concept fails me. Even a nice guy God, I would say, wow, there's a surprise, I got it wrong. Damn me or accept me, it's your call, I did my best.
"John, not sure where you are going with your questions."
Well, I ain't going nowhere, if you won't answer, am I ?
Forget the "too far" stuff, I'm asking about the basics. What determines "good and bad", if there is no "deity" ? Which "human values" of which real live humans, are worthy of being called valid, and why ?
Are you saying there is no right and wrong? What difference does it make that one calls wrong "sin" ? The word means harmful, no matter what silly notions people have about it. I believe you are throwing a whole lot of other things in, including guilt, regret, remorse, correction, etc, etc, and basically whining about what you are and how you function. God or no God, those things are real, are they not?
1 John 1:5-10
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I don't believe in labels.
Then I guess 'sinner' is just as good 'carla'. . .
-Mark the Sinner
Jesus was big on forgiving though, it is worth noting. I'll do my part- despite all I have written here, I am not hostile towards those whose religious impulse leads them to kindness.
It seems you wish to expose yourself, but not answer my question. If you wished to speak with me, and not just toot your horn, you have gone about it all wrong. There is not end to imaginings and rhetoric and self righteous declaring . . . until one stops, and reasons. I understand that you disbelieve in the Book, and God, but I have no idea what on earth these "human values" are, if the not the values of real humans. And I tell you the truth; the values of humans are crappola, and will prove themselves so, every time, as they have for all these centuries.
Please do not confuse His wisdom, with man's. The Book speaks of the many failures to grasp His "values", and those who take the Word seriously know full well that they are not worthy to define right and wrong. The Book does not tell us to believe we can, but just the opposite, it cautions us to be careful, and forgiving, in all our dealings with others, precisely because we cannot know a fraction of what is really going on in us, or others. We call ourselves sinners, because we don't know how to stop doing harm, though we may try, as anyone else who seeks justice, and peace. We just get a little advice from the manufacturer now and then ; )
Much of what you say makes good sense, but not the opening line;
""Sin" is term used to define and arbitrary standard of action and thought."
No, sin means NOT arbitrary standards, but standards far superior to such things. You may not believe in the Book, but that does not entitle you to redefine what it defines, arbitrarily. The Book is real, and you can touch one anytime, and see for yourself what sin means.
Sin is a word, it has meaning within the Book, regardless of whether one believes it is the Word of God or not. Is it also your choice as to what Sabbath means in it, or morning, or Christ? Is not believing in it granting you the power to assign any meaning to any word in it?
Has God healed you through His wounds yet you can't seem to get past your own little boo-boo's - what's up brother?
-Mark
The value and limits of Christianity, IMO, are defined by Beatitudes, the Sermon on the Mount, Corinthinians and how those precepts make believer a shining light on the hill. Christianity is meaningless you try to admonish me or anyone that your faith is true by some cosmic default. Works AND faith.
Blah blah blah, to you too, but not believing in the Greek gods, does not grant me the authority to redefine whatever words I like in the Iliad. Boats are still those floating things, and shields are still something one uses to protect oneself, and angry still means pissed off.
There is no possible logic that can justify changing the meaning of a word as it is used in the Book, and then saying the Book is wrong because the new meaning doesn't make sense. It's gibberish.
-Mark
"Sin" is a concept that says, God says not to do it and that is why it is wrong."
That is a concept alright, but it is NOT the concept the Book espouses. What the Book says is that there are things that will cause harm, to oneself and/or others, if we do them, and God loves us very much, and does not like it when we are harmed . . . so that is why He does not like sin.
There is simply no arbitrariness involved, it's not BECAUSE God does not like certain behaviours that they are sins, it's BECAUSE those behaviours will cause harm, that He does not like them. If you remove that "cause us harm" part, you are NOT speaking of the concept of sin, presented in the Book. He's not just finicky, He's a loving parent.
Although I agree with parts of your "cause us harm" take on sin - I don't think it has primacy with God.
The true heinousness of sin consists in the fact that it is an affront to the holiness of God. He will have no fellowship with iniquity to the point where He will sacrifice His perfect Son to be both just and justifier of those who stand guilty outside the camp.
Like leprosy, sin isn't merely harmful - it is lethal. . .
Here's the standard:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. . .
-Mark
Just curious. . .
-Mark
"Here's the standard:
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. . . "
Well, the voice that spoke those words was here for . . . what?
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
The perfection of God must mean His love for us is perfect, right?
(Give it up, my friend, He really loves you . . . really ; )
It seems kinda obvious to me that you missed the part about "Israel" being under attack by a certain "personage", who had the power to make shellfish toxic . . . as well as many other nasty things. The time was special, and that "advice" has since been rescinded . . . times have changed. (One still ought to be cautious about shellfish though, they can kill you ; )
Carla G.
If you were into healthly diets you would know that shellfish is a bottom feeder and can (and usually does) contain things that should not be consumed by humans.However our God given immune system,is capable of keeping this in check for small amounts of time.(if you think not then eat nothing but shellfish for a couple of months) :)
Just a for instance that dark line on the back of those delicious shrimp is actually shrimp pooph...
Back to the topic... I dont beleive Sin ?
Shooting the messenger is a surefire way to deal with the message.
John 3:19,20
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.