I am warning everybody ahead of time that this is going to be a rather stupid article. Mainly, because it deals with a subject for which there are no concrete answers and one which all conclusions are drawn from a person's own personal beliefs and viewpoints.
I was reading a very touching and well-written article by Michael Harvey today, titled "Standing On the Promises Of God"
(http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977556864).
I made what I now feel was a rather inappropriate comment on Michael's article, where I asked: "Why must it be a matter of faith??" The reason I asked such a question was because of something that I have wrestled with in my mind for many, many years.
I don't understand why living for God has to always boil down to "just believing." Just "stepping out of the boat," as it were; not knowing if you will walk or sink. Just taking Isaac to the mountaintop and having faith that "God will make a way."
Why can't it be about really "knowing"??
And, when I say "knowing," I don't mean "believing that you know," but rather, "knowing what you believe."
In the New Testament, 2 Peter 3:9 says: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
At the risk of sounding like the Jewish religious leaders in Matthew 16:1 and John 2:18, why doesn't God just make Himself and everything else He desires plain enough for everybody to see??
And I am not talking about looking around at the flowers and the clouds and the rest of creation and using "faith" to come to the conclusion that there is a God. I am talking about God revealing Himself to each and every human being in a personal way that leaves no room for doubt in their minds about His existence.
If God is truly "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" why does He seem to hide from everyone, except those who are willing to "just believe"?? Why does He not plainly and openly demonstrate His existence to everyone in a way which would not require "just believing," but, rather, in a way that everyone could "know"??
(See?? I warned you it would be a stupid article...........)
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Comments: 210 ( 2 removed by ''The One & Only BERF" .. )
Ask yourself why it is so desirable to have God's existence manifested in an arbitrary way of your choosing, and on your schedule? Would your life of joyful obedience be "enhanced" if His palpable existence were visibly breathing down your neck? Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe. Would unbelievers be gently led to paths of righteousness, or would they rail against this micromanager who has come so heavily upon their existence? I believe that it takes exactly one entire life to appreciate God's loving grace. Our spiritual journeys are an adventure of joyous discovery and humble reflection. Thanks be to God, and the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Amen.
lol! me too
But without faith {it is} impossible to please {him}: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and {that} he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
I don't think the nature of 'faith' is very well understood by many. God nowhere says He will not provide evidence if one asks for it in earnest, but to ask, is to act on faith, is it not? To ask anything of anyone, in earnest, is to act on faith, says I;
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Much evidence has been given, and if one needs more, act on the evidence one has, and ask earnestly. Act in good faith.
Hebrews 11:13
Its human nature to doubt when you dont see things for yourself. There are 100's of stories in the bible where God did Miraculous things that people could see for themselves and they still thought they could go it without him or maybe he wasn't looking so it was ok to do what ever they wanted. Its Faith and Belief that keeps you in check when you dont think he is watching. The thing is if you never screwed up you would probably have Nail Holes in your hands and feet. I know Im not wearing any nail holes.
What fact in the universe doesn't come with the label attached:
MADE BY GOD
That we deny this and suppress this says more about what kind of creatures we are then what kind of Creator He is. He has revealed to us many things - that we don't KNOW anything aright is our fault. . .
The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deuteronomy 29:29
-Mark
MADE BY GOD (?)"
What does??......................
But, to comment on the issue of faith, it reminds me of a favorite line from a T.V. show.
Kira: "That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it, and if you do have it, no explanation is necessary."
And I don't think your article is stupid at all. It is nature to question things that we do not understand.
As a happy agnostic I can't answer for God. But, if God is omnipotent then there are no rules for God. There is no explanation for anything. I certainly cannot explain anything at all about God. I don't think that an omnipotent being would have needs or wants but that's just me and I can't know whether that is really the case.
As to faith I can't see that it is a virtue. I can see what it does for the bureaucracy of the Church and for religious leaders. I can even see that it makes many people feel good (but then so does alcohol). What makes no sense at all to me is why a God would want to have human beings believe that He existed despite there being no evidence at all which could indicate the existence of an omnipotent God. God has no needs so why would He desire our belief? Why would we be toyed with in such a way when God already knows whether we will believe at some point and understands completely why we come to believe or not? It just makes no sense at all for a God to do that.
On the other hand, it makes all sorts of sense for people to want and need for others to have faith. I can see all sorts of reasons why religious organizations would desire that people have faith. I can also easily understand why people would want everyone else to believe the same things they do to remove their own doubt and anxiety about death and such. Religious wars and inquisitions and pogroms make a lot of sense to me because they are very human. But they are not a all Godlike.
In other words, faith is something else I don't understand about God.
I am not sure it was stupid but I do believe that everyone has their belief.
I also did now want to believe simply because that was what was taught. I still think that it is wrong to believe without proof or very strong evidence. (2 Corinthians 13:5)
The other proof of his existence came from two seemingly strange sources: my studies in bio-chemistry and physical chemistry. Also, my zoology teacher showed my class very convincing scientific evidence why it was unreasonable to believe in evolution. (She'd have been fired if she tried that in U.S.). Whereas my Botany teacher insisted that the life came here by evolution, she couldn't resolve the contradictory evidence revealed in her own bio-chemistry classes.
"Doubt is a sin which speaks to our rebellion against God and His revelation. . . "
Is there some place in the Book that says that?
He lives, and I know this because He lives right here (you can't see me, but I'm pointing to my heart).
James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering [NKJV: with no doubting]. For he that wavereth [NKJV: doubts] is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
When Eve doubted God's edict and believed Satan's hypothesis instead ,she was simply the first in a long line of Doubting Thomases - each one a rebel and a sinner. . .
-Mark
Would you be able to recognize one of Van Gogh's paintings aside from his signature?
-Mark
1 Peter 3:15 says "But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of you a reason for the hope in you,..."
For example, every time I toss something out a window, it falls to the ground. After a time, when I toss something out a window, I will know it has fallen to the ground; I will not need to look to verify that it has.
I bit on evolution, probably because I didn't have much grasp of chemistry, and was kind of dazzled by my own ability to comprehend (a bad sign, I know now) the various elements of evolution theory, and imagine endlessly about it. For me, it was in the realms of physics and "introspection/self awareness" that things just didn't add up right (or perhaps better put; didn't add up wrong ; ). When I came to understand that if any one of a dozen "forces" were not precisely as they are, a stable and orderly physical universe such as could allow for something like life, simply would not exist, it played on my mind. The science wasn't telling me that if the strong or weak nuclear forces, or gravity or the electromagnetic stuff etc., were a bit different, the universe would be a bit different; but that the whole thing would collapse into chaos . . . well, the odds grew awfully long.
I remember I was reading a book by the man who first detected variations in the "background radiation" necessary to explain why the universe is not homogeneous in nature, and he offered up the thought that the long odds were not a problem (long is an understatement, they are utterly immense), for if they had not occured the way they did, we would not be asking . . . that just didn't help. I thought, Hey, I don't go for circular arguments . . . and that is merely a spherical argument ; ). I couldn't buy in . . . I doubted my doubts about God, you might say.
It took several more years, and some hard knocks, but I finally went to the "Source", and asked for some help. I realized I was not going to "figure out" much of anything before the final bell, if He wasn't there.
In short, I would say people should do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Not whether or not they have evidence God is watching.
The Disciple Thomas was "a rebel and a sinner. . ."?
I read those verses rather differently than you, apparently. As I first said to Berf; Ask earnestly. What I meant is that one ought ask fully aware of the ramifications of what one is doing, fully prepared to listen carefully and without any "demands" that the answers conform to one's previous expectations or convictions. I believe that is the "doubting" spoken of in those verses, a form of insincerity. A form of "conditional" request, as though one will not accept what God sees fit to grant. Not fully committed to be taught, but merely seeking self validation in this or that way.
Consider please, when the man asked that Jesus help with the mental problems that were destroying his son, and Jesus told him that if he believed all things were possible;
"And straightaway, the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief"
. . . Jesus does not rebuke the man, but the "evil spirit" . . . I believe that doubt is not the sin, but allowing it to rule, and perpetuate itself. The man acted on what belief he had, and so acted "in good faith".
Ontology is not for the faint of heart.
Life is not for the faint of heart, but here we is ; )
Come on, take up my invitation. I'll send someone to you for a free Bible study course.
I believe for every drop of rain that falls-a flower grows.I believe for everyone who goes astray someone will come to show the way.Berf,the answer to your question is self-evident- Just slow down and see what you see everyday.It is a miracle!!
Would you be able to recognize one of Van Gogh's paintings aside from his signature?
-Mark"
Not a good analogy, Mark.......
There is solid, irrefutable evidence that Van Gogh existed.....
"There is solid, irrefutable evidence that Van Gogh existed..... "
That may be true, but that "solid evidence" is not what you believe based upon, right? You believe based on faith in the manner in which his existence is spoken of by others, as do I. And that is what I mean by "faith", essentially. As Dennis related, our faith, or confidence in something, basically "grows" within us. Not by choice or assertion, but by experience. Those circumstances that have proven reliable indicators in reality, become trusted by us "instinctively", one might say.
If some source or authority has not proven itself, we doubt, naturally. So, if one feels they could better serve God with more faith in His existence, would it not be in "God's interest" to provide such evidence?
Now, if one one simply was curious, or wished to be validated for what they have said or thought, God might not see that in the same light, and might refrain from complying, for any number of reasons, not the least of which could be harm that might be done to the person unprepared to deal with that knowledge, for once one knows . . . a great deal of what we think of as "freedom", vanishes. Sinning takes on an entirely different character, once one KNOWS He's watching. He is kind beyond our comprehension, and will not burden his children beyond what they can bear, thinks I.
Of course, the simple answer is that such a being isn't real, and the only way to have it be real is to have faith in it. But I can have faith in the Invisible Pink Unicorn and hope that she would reveal herself to everyone. Oh, why does belief in her have to be by faith?!
"Any believer in any such unseen deity should be asking their god the same thing: if you want people to know about you, show them."
That's not asking, it's telling. Why on earth would someone that believed in an all powerful Being, do something so stupid as demand He reveal Himself to someone else? So they could say; "I told you so?" . . . Not on my life.
Vast numbers of people have indicated He did "show them". Not a whole lot are claiming to have had interaction with pink unicorns . . .
I don't remember this part ever being a stipulation, of Adam's nor Eve's relationship with God. That, "serving", thing.
You have summed up my article and my thoughts in one sentence, John......
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it
Sounds like a pretty sweet job, but a job nonetheless ; )
-Mark"
Not a good analogy, Mark.......
There is solid, irrefutable evidence that Van Gogh existed.....
Berf,
Are you a believer?
Is there not solid, irrefutable evidence that God exists and has created and right now sustains everything?
Notwithstanding the evidence (which is incidental), do not His words hold sway with you?
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:3
What fact has not been created by Him, what fact does not have His signature?
-Mark
Romans 1:18-23
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..............could be.........
you ask:
Mark, please, "When Eve doubted God's edict and believed Satan's hypothesis instead ,she was simply the first in a long line of Doubting Thomases - each one a rebel and a sinner. . ."?
The Disciple Thomas was "a rebel and a sinner. . ."?
Thomas insisted that sensory evidence for Christ's resurrection be presented to him. Hadn't Christ previously told him what would happen?
From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. (NASB ©1995)
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. . .
Yet despite Christ's revelation to him, he is willful in his unbelief and culpable of rebellion against that word of truth.
Consider:
. . .for whatever is not from faith is sin. . . (Rom. 14:23)
-Mark
Are you a believer?"
That is thw whole point, Mark........
A "believer" is all any of us can be.......
Knowing that we believe.....Believing that we know.....
Yes, and yes, but . . . Jesus again does not rebuke Thomas (except in a more or less chiding manner, it seems), but rather gives the evidence requested. Many times in the Book I see people ask questions of Him, and never do I see Him become angry or impatient, always I see Him answer in some way. Please consider;
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it,
it is folly and shame unto him.
Now, if Thomas had kept his doubts to himself, and so disbelieved ...
"A "believer" is all any of us can be.......
Knowing that we believe.....Believing that we know..... "
You did not speak of Mr. Van Gogh that way . . . why?
I say, because I see, there is another way. When I climb up on my roof, it matters not what I believe I know or know I believe, that edge has a serious effect way beyond the "intellectual" . . .
That is where "faith" lies, I say. In the actual, not the imagination.
It's "possible," Joe..........but not probable............
"Many of the writers of the Bible were interested in controlling the masses at that time."
Which ones??......
"Certainly, when Mohammed arrived amidst the "cradle of civilization," he was merely the prophet who was able to make some sense out of the life struggle at the time."
Unfortunately, "merely a prophet" is still all he is........
There is no guarantee of anything with religion.
Do you hold to this religiously, Joe?
True enough, religion might be so much bunkum - Jesus thought so when he upbraided the religious elites of His day - but that being said, if the Living God has decreed something, you can take it to the bank. . .
-Mark
Are you a believer?"
That is the whole point, Mark........
A "believer" is all any of us can be.......
Knowing that we believe.....Believing that we know.....
Yes, but faith must have its object. . .
Berf, who's your daddy?
-Mark
What use in endlessly asking the imagination to verify it's own images? None of them are real anyway. The answer will always be the same. Only by action, can the whole of intelligence be convinced of anything, for we long ago learned that the mind can think just about anything, regardless of what is so. But we cannot disregard the actual, we cannot just over-ride what we have experienced in reality. It remains. We don't just "think" a speeding automobile is dangerous, we believe. We cannot disbelieve.
I cannot disbelieve in God, anymore. I can doubt anything I think.
So does knowledge, Mark......
I want this article to remain a "Berf Wants To Know" article instead of being twisted into a "Berf Does Not Believe" article......
And, Berf, Jesus is merely a prophet as was Mohammed. It is factually incorrect to hold in higher esteem either one. They sure had great influence on mankind. But, they were mere prophets.
Mark-John - - - - you would have to be more specific about taking anything written by fallible men about the mysteries of life to the bank. It just doesn't fit into my belief system. I don't question your beliefs. Your really shouldn't question mine, in my opinion.
God is longsuffering, isn't He?
We were laughing the other day watching my son's 8th grade basketball team make a butchery of the sport once again. They're, they're. . . not good. But they have a coach who is so patient with them. If I had the team, I'd be chainsmoking cigarettes and calling timeouts every three possessions so I could tounguelash these teenagers - but their coach is mellow and you know what -they're going to be okay in a couple years with some more maturity and coordination and time together on the hardwood. That being said, that doesn't mean that they're doing the right things, right now. They're committing cardinal roundball sins every two seconds.
You can make excuses for Thomas as my pastor does every two or thee years when he has to preach a sermon on this text but the fact remains that Thomas is a rebel and a sinner. What incredible condescension and mercy does the Savior show him when He offers him His wounds? This is the same mercy that He shows to any of His chosen ones when he plucks them like brands from the fire. And just because the outcome is good for Thomas doesn't condone his outspoken rebellion. True, he might have remained silent but the Omniscient One still would have come searching for His lost lamb and would have drawn him out. . .
-Mark
Besides Christ, who else doesn't fit that description??......
Here again is the original sin: Berf wants to know. . .
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matthew 16:4
Unfortunately, without God, without the Universal, all the particulars are unknowable. Berf, you must start with God and work outward or there can be no such thing as epistemology.
-Mark
I cannot demonstrate there is more than mere intellectualizing to this matter of faith, if you insist I merely intellectualize. I am acting, not debating. I see that title as a statement of truth, not just a label . .
Am I wrong for that? Do you really want to know?
Besides Christ, who else doesn't fit that description??......
Bingo!
When did Christ ever condemn him for doubting?? When did Christ ever disown him for doubting?? For that matter, when did Christ ever chastize or ridicule him for doubting??
"True, he might have remained silent but the Omniscient One still would have come searching for His lost lamb and would have drawn him out. . ."
Now look who is granting too much "free will" ? Do you think Thomas had any choice in the matter? Do you think He was not led to speak those words? Ye of little faith, that ain't even possible, says I.
Don't you want to "know", Mark??
you write:
Mark-John - - - - you would have to be more specific about taking anything written by fallible men about the mysteries of life to the bank. It just doesn't fit into my belief system.
So if your net can't catch it, it ain't fish?
As unbelievable as it might seem to you, God isn't all about conforming Himself to Joe T's belief system. . . This is the same arrogance that Thomas showed when he demanded evidence for the resurrection of His Lord and God. . .
-Mark
I think you have deliberately misrepresented yourself as a skeptic. . .
To generate this nice affirming discussion.
I am a religious free zone, non believing, secular humanist, unwilling to base my entire life on a set of beliefs that require only unsupportable, unverifiable, nonevidential "faith."
I do not comment on or join in religious discussions. I read your post because I though I was joining a skeptcial discussion. Your responses to the comments say I was very wrong, however since you did not honestly state your beliefs I am commenting because I am a nonbeliever and find this article to be deceptively preachy/teachy
So my comment is in defense of and in honor of all atheists, non believers, honest skeptics, & secular humanists.
I call myself a religious free zone and will not base my entire life on ideas that have no purpose, and no evidence, and seem to provide much pain, agony, violence guilt and unhappiness.
But if you experienced what Thomas did, do you doubt you would BELIEVE, and not just "know you believe or believe you know"?
When you insist one cannot KNOW God is real, you limit yourself. I tell you the turth, He can show whatever He wishes to you.
I think you have deliberately misrepresented yourself as a skeptic. . ."
Cena Chick,
I think you have erroneously and presumptuously perceived me as deliberately misrepresenting myself as a skeptic........
The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
John 20:24-28
And you doubt that was preordained? Come now, you know better.
Thomas was guilty of nothing there, it was not his "show".
I do know Berf, not exhaustively. . .but truly.
I know that my Redeemer liveth!
Why won't you come to Him that you might have life?
-Mark
Are God's sovereignty and man's responsibility incompatible?
-Mark
There may indeed be much truth to that statement, John....
But, I also think that when one consigns their faith to the mere words of a book or to the assumptions of another human being like themselves, they also tragically limit all that God is willing to demonstrate to them to truly "know" what they "believe".....
Your God, John, seems very selective. It just doesn't fit into how I see things. But, let's say that you are right. Why does God ignore so many people, then?
And, Mark, I don't demand anything of God. I wouldn't presume to have that kind of power.
I am commenting because I am a nonbeliever and find this article to be deceptively preachy/teachy
Re-read your comment and tell us again who's preaching. As Berf stated above, there's no such thing as a non-believer. Everyone believes something and you seem to hold to your views very religiously. . .
What's in your wallet hun?
-Mark
Jesus loves me! This I know,
for the Bible tells me so.
-Mark
That ain't the point, you have judged Thomas, and ought to know better, I believe. You have been told that these things were for us.
And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all all the mighty works they had seen.
Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Thomas was not in any position to write the script, it was His show.
you state:
And, Mark, I don't demand anything of God. I wouldn't presume to have that kind of power.
No, but He makes demands of you. . . and He does have the power and authority to do so.
-Mark
In fact, the main premise of my article is that one can "know," but only by God Himself providing that knowledge. Mark's insistence is that faith alone is enough. He can not "know," no more than you or I, whether Christ walked on water or raised the dead or rose from the dead. These ideas, along with many others, are physically relegated by time and space to the realm of "belief."
But, God is a Living God in the here and now (for us, at least), and His existence and all else that we "believe" about Him can be imparted to and known by us now. Not through mere faith, but through acquired knowledge......