It must be said. What is happening in Gaza is an atrocity. 300 for 1 is simply not acceptable. It is reprehensible. It is barbarism. Plain and simple.
And of course, the Israel Lobby will continue to pull the wool over the eyes of the American public.
I am outraged almost beyond words. It is an unconscionable act of a people who have gone, in less than two generations, from the oppressed to the oppressors. And it must stop.
It is time for the Israelis to forgive the West and the rest of the world for the Holocaust.
Why?
In one century man has committed four major genocides: those perpetrated against the Armenians, European Jewry, Cambodians and Rwandans, not to mention those against the Kurds, Bosnian Muslims and Kosovars. One, in the Sudan, is already underway in the 21st century.
What’s the lesson here? Perhaps it is this. Nothing is unique about any of them and complacency is deadly. It can happen anywhere.
What would the world be like if all of these nations acted as Israel does?
Until Israel comes to grips with this simple reality there will be no peace in the Middle East and American will continue to be embroiled in wars that make the Middle East safe for Israel.
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Comments: 100 ( 1 removed by Sean Paul Kelley )
I agree with you on all points.
Featured in the Triple Name Club.
Hamas should not be sending missiles into Israel but murdering innocent people just makes the Jews terrorists like Hamas and no better.
hamas is a terrorist organization. they don't want to come to the peace table, they just want to kill. They are killing innocent israelies on a daily basis, they blow up busses, blow up discos, hotels. Hamas is murdering innocent people. israel is trying its best not to kill these innocent civilians but the hamas group is situated right in the middle of civilian territory. Israel is just like any other nation, if we are attacked we attack back. It took israel an awful long time to respond. In the meantime, there are other areas where people are being killed on a daily basis, like suicide bombings in Iraq which is a daily occurance. people are being killed in pakastan and afghanistan. why doesn't china give back tibet which they took 50 years ago. why doesn't the united states give back its land to the native americans from whom they stole their land from.Why don't you speak out about these incidents, but i understand there are no jews involved , so all the fun is gone.
The Rwandans and Cambodians can forgive because their wars are over. Israel is still being attacked.
Marilyn makes several good points. It is my hope that intelligent people not be involved in the arguments right now, only the stopping of loss of innocent life, and a reasonable cool-down period. Then perhaps they can talk again. But Hamas must make the effort to KEEP up the demands of a truce. That is that. Ellen B
What I will never understand is why people in the middle east continue to wage war with each other. Is religion the cause? Is greed the cause? Or can they not put past grudges and hate behind them?
No one is guaranteed a place to live in this world. There is no god with a heavenly deed office doling out parcels of land to groups or individuals.
Why do they never think about what they're teaching their kids?
Point 2. There is no real argument for "proportionate response". If one person in my family is killed by one of these terrorists, I would have no problem with turning the attackers' land into a parking lot.
They have been asked/ordered by the UN to adopt a cease fire. I think that is a good move. That would allow for a time of assessment. Talking while missiles and bombs are dropping could be difficult one would think. And Dan has applied reality of human nature to this situation with his comments, which I agree with. That is the way Hamas operates. And they are forcing the death of those who live with them. I see that as a selfish self serving act. To live and let live does not seem to be in within their capability, for any reason. How can the gloabal community, parts of it be so outraged when the caliber of Hamas was known when they first announced power? I hope to hear more on this, as I may have missed something?? Thanks Sean for your opinion, but I do not see Hamas as the "Little Guy" being beaten up everyday for his lunch money . Great article for discussion, that is what that area needs soon. Ellen B
So, this is not going to get me any points either Sean. I think if Israel does not learn to share as the Quakers did then they certainly should not get our money to keep committing their war crimes and crimes against humanity. When you abuse a privilege you need to lose it. They will lose it in the end. The world is much smaller with the media being what it is these days. They cannot cover up what they are doing to Palestine. The world will not tolerate it as they see more and more what is being done. No more smoke and mirrors.
The little shephard boy has loads of weapons being smuggled into the gaza from Egypt. for what reason is this happening? To play cops and robbers like the kids do. they do not have limited power, they are shooting rockets into israel's cities, now. a woman coming home from the gym has just been killed. Are you jealous that the jew's are G-d's chosen people, that really makes you mad, right. Well, just too bad my friend....yes we are chosen , chosen to be murdered, burned, tortured and anything else bad you can think of. Yes, i could see how you are a fan of Reverand Wright. He would think the same way. Have a happy new year everyone!
You ask why the Israelis cannot let go. But the same question could be put to Hamas, could it not? Was the retaliation commensurate? I sure don't clam to know. From what I've read, the Palestinians have been lobbing missiles into Iran for a while. How much punishment will it take for them to learn that it's not working? And when is Hamas going to drop the idea of the only acceptable world being one with no Jewish people?
I have some argument with some of the practices Israel has employed but this one would appear, based on what I have read, to be a no brainer! Many times in a war, the reaction of one side is out of proportion and then the opponent comes back and beats them, so who is qualified to judge what is excessive?
Israel has a right to protect their citizens in their own country. I think that is a given. If one wants to criticize Israel they should read Carters book on the subject so they get the correct issues to the front.
Someone above mentioned the holocaust and the other non Jewish people that were slaughtered and bemoaning the lack of disapproval of Hitler over these. My question is which of those others represented an effort to destroy their entire race? And I would certainly disapprove of all that Hitler slaughtered in the prison camps.
This entire thing is a very disappointing event in the history of the human race. There are no winners and there never will be. The common people on both sides will be the big losers. It would appear that the bloodshed is not going to end until such time as there is a neutral third party with the power to enforce peace and the funds and will to do so!
Lord Alfred Tennyson referenced "till the battle flags were furled, in the parliament of man, the federation of the world." And "when the common sense of most shall hold a fretful realm in awe." When will this day come?
Since arriving at weapons of mass destruction with incredible capability to destroy large portions of population, it has become imperative that mankind grow up very quickly, and with the maturity acquired, eliminate the potential to destroy human life!
Hamas must be confident that they will get back-up from somewhere. That is scary. What will happen then? I would bet money if I had it, that Hamas will be forgotten, and the real goal of this diversion of these two battling out will surface. And I think they, and what problems they "have" now will be forgotten. Call me crazy, but I cannot see Israel killing children. They have to realize that many are waiting to use them and this situation for something else. Too many are interested in this battle that has gone on for too long. And many of them are not friendly to the USA. If it were me, and I had all the bombs in the world, over an area that continued to kill my people, I would have to defend them. Little does not mean stupid. They are not the 300. It has taken a turn for the worse, for both Israel and the Palestinians, and somewhere, I think someone is just waiting to take up a cause that has been captilizied on. Ellen B
Yeah, as always its how much farther should the Israelis bend instead of holding those who claim to represent the Palestinians accountable for their actions. What course of action do you think is the right one? A simple one for one killing...the murderers win that way for sure. Maybe you can come up with a equation that the terrorists would respect?
Everytime I see pictures of these oppressed people, I see large groups running around with nothing constructive to do but point at the damage done to them. This leads me to believe the governments need to put everyone to work rebuilding their areas. If busy working, maybe some will not have time to fire a weapon, and even consider that when they do it is their wall that will be blown down.
I tried to build an Igloo in the Arctic and never did get the top cap to remain holding the walls up so I could sleep inside. I had to sleep outside in the cold and I didn't like it. Nothing to do with the desert people, but would they start wanting their newly build house to be blown down?
I say, put every man, woman, and child to work rebuilding their homes and cities and when it is blown down, have them keep rebuilding it until they get too tired to cause more trouble, and decide it is better to live in a nice place under good conditions then live in rubble. This is just a dream, because the world doesn't work the way we would like it to. But could it be a dream that leads to the chance for all people to get tired of fighting and start thinking living together is not so bad?
Wake the hell up, and man-up.
Pretty much speaks for itself.
A last note: James C. wrote:
I certainly hope you meant to write Israel instead of Iran.
I must admit I am at a loss to understand the reason for your points in this post, IF you truly are a travelled , well versed man and wish to write and comment objectively on this subject.
How long would you do NOTHING if another party or parties were lobbing bombs and mortars into your homeland, into your sleeping childrens bedrooms? How long would you sit idly by when said parties had delivered more than a thousand bombs/mortars into your land leaving some middle class suburbs in Israel reduced to ghost towns, over a 7-year period?
Is that reprehensible?
Is that barbarism?
Why does THAT not outrage you beyond words?
This incident has NOTHING to do with Israel forgiving the West and the rest of the world for the holocaust. No relation....whatsoever. Yet you bring it up in an attempt to lay the blame at the feet of Israel. Statements such as that outrage me beyond words. You say it is time Israel stopped blaming Palestinians? That is even more outrageous in it's deceit. Israel is defending against Hamas and those who hide them and secretly support them, and assist with the bombings in Israel .
You mention "Palestinians? Do you mean those calling themselves Palestinians ? I will quote Walid Shoebat , a former PLO terrorist, for you. "Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the cirriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians -they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag. When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out. " Palestinians have no history, culture, coinage, lineage, language. They appeared after the 1967 Six-Day War where Israel was victorious.
I read NO condemnation of Hamas in your post. Why is that? You are fully aware they are the largest " Palestinian /Jordanian " militant Islamist organization whose aim is to wipe Israel from the face of the earth. Hamas was bombing Israel even when they were in a "supposed" peace treaty. Hamas hides and disguises their weaponry in churches, schools, hospitals....individual sympathizers homes with the hope those types of structures will not be bombed when Israel FINALLY decides to respond to the deadly barrage of missiles that have been flying deep into their country for years. But...that's OK with you also?
Israel has given up most of their land in their "Land for Peace" movements. They now reside on 1/10th of one percent of the land originally theirs in their pleas for peace and recognition of their right to exist. A "Peace" which still eludes them.
Israel has made it clear their defense in this incident has a broader aim and their target is only to weaken if not destroy the Hamas militants network of their arsenal , and militant leaders that have been bombing Israel for seven years.
Israel issued a warning to Hamas of one last chance to halt their rocket fire into Israel and Hamas responded, and still does, with more rocket fire.
How long should a country wait and hope that another will stop firing on them before they take action? How long would you wait if it was your home and family? Your post lacked honesty, objectivity and sent a message of your biasness.
"And light one candle for those who are suffering
Pain we learned so long ago
Light one candle for all we believe in
That anger not tear us apart
And light one candle to find us together
With peace as the song in our hearts"
made me feel like God was sending me the message that this cycle of violence must stop. We Americans deplore the genocides and tortures going on in other countries, but do we stop to think about what WE did to the Indians or to the Tuskeegee men, who were infected with Syphilis so that we could research them?
You are right...It is time for forgiveness. Anyway, like I said, I wrote a long article yesterday and when I submitted it, it disappeared!!! So, I'm very glad to see this article. It is time we realized that oppressing Palestine children, from the time they were born is not going to make them love Jews any better. On the contrary, it is just teaching hate.
To this day, none of those-including yourself can say what in hell that actually means. One for one, two for one? Give us YOUR idea of what proportional should be.
The idea of War, is to break things, and kill people. And WIN.
And, hopefully, the uglier it gets, the more it will be avoided.
You are absolutely correct, I did mean Israel, and I thank you for catching that! I appreciate you indicating the international law you have referenced. I read that law as not necessarily condemning to Israel's actions. If the military objective is to end the strikes on Israel by Hamas, I'm not sure what would be excessive. Since they've not ended it could reasonably be concluded that not enough force was used, could it not?
You state "a lot of the news reporting in Israel is much more accurate than the US msmedia." Not to say it isn't so bujt how does anyone, you, me, or the proverbial gate post, know this to be fact? How does one determine that and based on who's say so?
Is it not possible that different people see different ramifications of the same event? And each reports them as they see them, appearing one to be wrong and another correct? I think if one starts out with the concept that the press in America is lying to them at every turn they are making a big mistake with the freest press found anywhere in the world.
And to assume that other countries have a more honest press is extremely hard to believe as most don't have the protections our press gets. That one just doesn't make sense to me! Most everything we read is subject to interpretation somewhere along the line from the originating event to the eventual final reporting.
I hope you don't mind if I take this space to invite folks to read an article I posted about Gaza some months ago. It doesn't address the events of the past few days but it does perhaps provide some insight into life in Gaza. It recounts my visit there in 2003.
Reflections on the Road: THE GAZA STRIP AND A PHOTOGRAPH I DIDN'T TAKE
All the best to each of you.
Oh so THAT'S why terrorists hide amongst civilians. I would have never guessed that. The biggest hypocrisy among liberals is that while Hamas was bombing Israel and as Israel was asking the international community to get involved and resign another truce there wasn't a peep. Liberals didn't even know about all of that. So there is obviously NO reason to listen to them now.
Puleazze.
Liberals aren't evil, they are just misguided. Do terrorists hide among civilians so that if they are attacked there will be a liberal outcry condemning the "disproportionate" retaliation for what they did? Maybe liberals are just too stupid to understand how their misguided world view and activism aids terrorists.
And as for my world view: how many countries have you traveled in? I doubt you've ever left North America. Hard to call that much of a worldview, isn't it?
As you must realize, to accept what we can see, we must reject what we have been led to believe. The concept that we have have been propagandized, and swallowed it whole, is difficult to face. I believe it is quite true, nonetheless, and that what you say and imply here is so. Thank you for speaking up.
Israel has stepped down many times because the US has asked it too, only to be picked on again and again.... I think Israel needs to wipe the terrorists off of the map..I dont think ISrael kills innocent people on purpose and the terrorists that was just killed was notified to leave and refused... He also, sent his own son out as a suicide bomber...
These people want to cry and carry on about innocent children being killed but yet send their own kids out to die... I guess , by their way of thinking it is alright if they have them killed but dont let anyone else kill them... If this is their logic, there is no peace to be found with this bunch...
All of this has many facets to it. But, more importantly, this whole matter makes me wonder what will happen when the ORIGINAL JEWS step forward and are gathered from the four corners of the earth . . .
I appreciated your answer! If I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that ynetnews.com is truthful and others are not. Would that be correct? I'll have to take a look at that site as I've not heard of them before.
I have to ask, what supports newspapers in England? If they don't advertise, that is.
There have been times in the past when I looked at things in much the same manner as you, and perhaps that is better. I simply go from logic, the media will act in its own best interests. I don't care who's media it is. That's just human nature. But the more sources from which one can derive information the better chance of having a balance.
Balance is one thing I tend to look for and if I fail to see that, I wonder what their agenda really is. But as far as foreign news sources, I have absolutely no reason to believe that they are not biased as greatly as nay here in this country. Why would the people who report for them be any different than our own?
In some way's, I'm probably more skeptical than you, but the end result of that is not the same at all. Are you telling me that you've had no agenda or bias in your research? That would be good, but unusual. Someone wrote an article on here about confirmation bias, it was excellent and described what all of us are guilty of doing in our research. I'm sure that I am guilty and I suspicion that you are as well, if you are honest about it.
This, of course, gets away from the subject of this post. I still cannot grasp the concept that when Israel is being attacked for literally years, that their efforts to stop that have been overkill. Perhaps there is a better way to accomplish it than force, but if force is used, it must be sufficient to accomplish the goal. If Hamas is still targeting and sending missiles into Israel, the retaliation has not worked, that is self evident.
I will definitely consider your response to me and what you have stated. I don't ever claim to be right much of the time. If I get one occasionally, that's a good start. And I will readily acknowledge that there is a real wealth of information and facts about the Mideast struggle of which I am unaware. But your response helps me to understand a little more.
Thanks, Dorian!
January 2 - Excerpted from Haaretz
Earlier Thursday, an Israeli aircraft killed a high-ranking Hamas official in Gaza along with nine women, including at least four wives, and 11 of his children, in the first major assassination since the IDF launched Operation Cast Lead on Saturday.
And how many Israelis have died? 3 or 4?
Someone, somewhere is willing to fight Israel to the last Palestinian. Who is it?
toll is up to 428 in the past 7 days. That's more than the number of
Israelis killed in the last 7 years.
So much for the Israeli's stated purpose. It appears more as if they intend to wipe the Palestinians off of the face of this planet. Israel is the bully here.
Check out the BBC World Service for some eye opening reports and interviews.
A boat delivering 3.5 tonnes of Cypriot medical aid to the Gaza Strip has been rammed by Israeli naval vessels in international waters, activists say.
The Free Gaza campaign group, which operates the Dignity, also claimed shots were fired towards the crew.
The boat later docked in Lebanon after sustaining serious damage to one side.
There were reports earlier from a pediatric hospital that has been heavily damaged by Israeli bombs falling around it as well as an interview with one of it's doctors as well as other staff members. It's heartbreaking to hear the plight of these children and their families. If Israel were only reacting to rocket fire why are they murdering so many civilians?
Yes, more Palestinians killed in 7 days than Israelis in 7 years,
As I have stated earlier:
"Proportional" is about the most foolish and ridiculous Term EVER applied to Military Warfare.The idea of War is to break things, and kill people. And WIN."
You don't seem to understand; there is a War going on. You have no say in how it should be waged. If the Palestinians don't like it, they'll stop their Terror tactics. Lobbing shells into innocent Israeli neighbourhoods, and sending in suicide bombers, will no longer be tolerated...nor should it be.
And, as long as the coward Palestinian continues to hide behind the skirts of its Women and Civilians, more are going to be hurt.
You and I seldom agree on anything so it with some surprise that we do agree on this issue! How much more is it going to take before the people of Gaza recognize the futility in trying to wipe Israel of the earth and accept their presence, thereby setting the stage for a real peace in harmony with Israel? Israel is a powerful enemy and has the most powerful nation in the world backing it so they have to know they cannot win!
There is no proportionality in war. The first side to kill anyone has committed a disproportional act and from there it escalates.
115-1! Not disproportionate at all!
Comes awfully close to GENOCIDE in my book guys!
I understand your view point on this. And isn't it inherently wrong for terrorists or any military type efforts to hide behind the skirts of their women and children and place these innocent people at greater risk than should be? If not, tell me what makes that right? The US takes no delight in killing innocents! Id does happen in any war, I'll admit, but to deliberately put them in positions of jeopardy is inherently wrong!
If all nations and military efforts were to adopt a firm policy of never harming an innocent person, there would be no wars because each adversary would only need to intersperse innocents among the combatants and no other nation would attack. We saw haw that works on 911! There was no military in the WTC.
It is good to have compassion but perhaps the quickest way to end the most innocent civilian deaths is to bring the hostilities to a halt as soon as possible and that will require positive action by both belligerents.
Genocide was what Hitler was attempting, to destroy a race. Perhaps the same could be applied to the vast number of Muslims who want Israel off the face of the earth but I've not heard of Palestinians being on the endangered species list, leading me to believe that calling this genocide is rhetoric and nothing more. No race is being annihilated that I've heard about. And the Jews in Germany did not have the ability to end their destruction by ceasing to abuse Hitler's Reich.
I am a second generation American on my mothers side and have family in Norway, Austria, and Ireland. I have been to Europe 4 times in my life and am going back in the spring. Personally I don't think any of those experiences formed my world view. My opinions are mine and mine alone. But if world experience was so important maybe only the military and it's veterans should be allowed to vote. Would THAT make you happy?
Perhaps it's the daily rain of rockets from Gaza and the complete lack of any sign of "letting go" from the Palestinians in general and Hamas in particular.