Moral Relativism and Inalienable Rights
Moral Relativism and Inalienable Rights - Continued
My previous articles on this subject (links above) have generated a long debate and a comment thread that has meandered on for nearly 500 posts. It is clear at this point that no minds have been changed by the discussion. What I will attempt to do here is to summarize the arguments on each side, and to offer a suggested solution to this seemingly irresolvable controversy.
Let’s call the proponents of same sex marriage “Yeas,” and the opponents “Nays.” In the following paragraphs, I have tried to paraphrase the (often eloquently stated) arguments offered by both sides. It is highly recommended that interested readers should read the threads of the articles linked above, rather than relying on my summary.
The Yeas basic argument is that prohibiting same-sex marriage is a civil rights issue, not unlike the prohibition of mixed-race marriages in the last century. They argue that the “equal protection” clause in the Constitution is violated when gays are not allowed to marry.
There are numerous arguments on the Nay side, starting with the Biblical condemnation of homosexual acts. Nays argue that children should be raised in a family with a male father and a female mother, and that gays are therefore inferior parents. True homophobes go further, saying that homosexuals are “sick” or “evil,” and that they should be rejected by society, or even condemned to death, as Leviticus in the Old Testament states.
Virtually all of the above Nay arguments are, in my opinion, based on Biblical bigotry and/or homophobia. But there is one more argument, often proposed by the Nays, that at least has a logical basis: Marriage has been “traditionally” defined as a union between a man and a woman. Even though no law specifically states this, most would agree that it is a “traditional” definition. Adding same sex unions, therefore, changes this basic definition, and once you start changing the definition of marriage, you are starting down a “slippery slope,” where any kind of union can be defined as marriage...groups of mixed gender, or a man and his dog, or even a man and his car…a clever use of reductio ad absurdum.
Before these arguments can be evaluated, we must first determine their legitimacy. Yeas say this is s civil rights issue. Nays respond that gays can make civil unions or domestic partnerships which are essentially the same thing. Are they?
Marriage establishes a legal kinship between spouses. It is a relationship that is recognized across cultures, countries and religions.
Civil unions exist in only a handful of places...Vermont, New Jersey and Connecticut. The protections offered by civil unions do not extend beyond the border of the state. The federal government does not recognize civil unions and provides no federal protections for them at all.
California and Oregon have domestic partnership laws that offer many of the same rights as civil unions, but domestic partnership laws vary from state to state. Some, like the recently passed California domestic partnership law come with many rights and responsibilities. Others, like the one in Washington offer very few benefits to the couple. Again, none of the provisions are applicable across state lines, and none are recognized by the federal government.
What are some of the differences between marriage and civil unions?
Recognition in other states: Even though each state has its own laws around marriage, if someone is married in one state and moves to another, their marriage is legally recognized. For example, Oregon marriage law applies to people 17 and over. In Washington state, the couple must be 18 to wed. However, Washington will recognize the marriage of two 17 year olds from Oregon who move there. This is not the case with civil unions. If someone has a civil union in Vermont, that union is not recognized in any other state. As a matter of fact, two states, Connecticut and Georgia, have ruled that they do not have to recognize civil unions performed in Vermont, because their states have no such legal category.
Dissolving a Civil Union v. Divorce: Vermont has no residency requirement for Civil Unions. That means two people from any other state or country can come there and have a civil union ceremony. If the couple breaks up and wishes to dissolve the union, one of them must be a resident of Vermont for one year before the Civil Union can be dissolved in family court. Married couples can divorce in any state they reside, no matter where they were married.
Immigration: A United States citizen who is married can sponsor his or her non-American spouse for immigration into this country. Those with Civil Unions have no such privilege.
Taxes: Civil unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples cannot file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples.
Benefits: The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.
So there are clear differences between marriage, civil unions and domestic partnerships, and these differences would appear to deprive those who cannot marry from enjoying substantial and meaningful rights. This is a civil rights issue.
Now, consider the “definition” argument. It is clear that word definitions change over time. Consider the word “gay.” When I was a young man, a “gay bachelor” was a young stud out to conquer and seduce as many young women as he could. The meaning of that word has certainly changed! How did that change happen? Through common usage. As more and more people adopted the new meaning for the word, it became an accepted definition.
What about the “slippery slope” argument? Because “gay” was redefined, are the definitions of “merry” or “cheerful” or any other word definitions threatened? No. Word definitions, like many other traditions and rituals of society, change over time. So what is the harm in expanding the definition of “marriage” to include same-sex unions? I can’t see any.
But, it is abundantly clear from the passage of Proposition 8 here in California that a narrow (and dwindling) majority still oppose same sex marriage. That result may have been due to voter ignorance or confusion. Certainly that was the intent of the proponents who spread disinformation, claiming that failure of Prop 8 would require churches to perform gay weddings, and schools to teach about, and promote, gay marriage. Those tactics were despicable. We will never know how much effect they had on the outcome.
But the “definition” argument keeps reappearing, and it is probably influencing a lot of people who are uncomfortable with the idea of redefining the word.
So here’s a proposal. Let’s have a separate but completely equivalent union between same-sex couples and call it…uh…
MERRIAGE.
When two gays “merry” it will surely be a happy occasion!
And for those who are worrying about redefining the word “merry,” let me assure you that “merry,” as in “Merry Christmas,” is an adjective, but in my new definition, “merriage” is a noun, and when a gay “merries” another gay, it’s a verb. It’s not the same word, so there is no redefinition happening.
I can’t wait to hear your comments…from both sides.




Comments: 50
You did cover everything quite thoroughly, but I'll come back and respond to Jonathan's last comment when I get the time, since some of it was addressed to me.
I keep hearing about this traditional marriage between a man and a woman. But today that is mostly myth. People marry for many reasons, divorce for others and remarry for others. Some sects or religions have half a dozen or more wives. A lot of "traditional" marriages were hell on earth before the days of the birth control pill. So the word doesn't seem too sacred to me.
Call it merriage or mirrage or minestroni. The world needs all the love it can get. I have no problem with who does what, with which or to whom providing those involved at consenting adults.
Apart from my beloved, I spend a great deal of time in the arms of my grand leather easy chair. Does this mean I am living in sin?
There! I told you I have nothing intelligent to offer on this subject.
Every single objection OTHER than "I am a religious bigot who seeks to control how others live, act, think and function in society...based upon my assumed, self anointed authority...as I see the directions of MY god printed in MY bible"...is an effort to divert the debate from exposing those narrow minded bigotries.
Change the word "marriage" to avoid the "definition" argument? Hell no. That (the definition) is not the REAL issue. The REAL issue is one of civil rights and it is the civil rights question that must be addressed...not played with, obscured, avoided, whispered or circumvented.
If there are legal advantages to being married, we should not, legally, be able to withhold it from consenting adults. If you want to call the legal portion of marriage something else and let it provide the legal benefits (i.e. the government recognizes all civil unions as equal and doesn't recognize religious marriages as anything), that would be reasonable to me.
But, it's either justice for all or it isn't justice.
I believe that the majority of us know, deep down, that preventing gays from marrying is horribly hypocitical and unjust. But it's going to take awhile until we all recognize this and admit it to ourselves and each other.
FYI, a recent New York Times article reports that the passage of Proposition 8 has spawned a new generation of gay rights activists. Some good usually comes out of bad.
Tradition is an ever evolving concept. This cannot be effectively disputed. For instance...in the United States...up until very recently...multiracial marriages were not only considered "not traditional" but were, in many states, illegal.
The religious concept of the union of a man and a woman used to be defined by the words "man and wife"..now most use the terminology "husband and wife"...just as the words of tradition once contained the command to the wife to "obey" her husband...a command which has, for the most part, been abandoned...an evolution of the traditional words of ceremony. Even monogamy had to evolve into the the definition of the Christian concept of marriage (in the sixth century).
Marriage is a union of equal partners... and no where in the Bible does the definition of marriage specially limit a marriage to one man and one woman. Sex between men is condemned in a few instances and seemingly condoned in others. (David's song to Jonathan) I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother;
You were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful,
More wonderful than that of a woman
Perhaps David and Jonathan had a platonic friendship...but who can say? The important factor is one of love and companionship...not what may or may not have gone on in the bedroom.
Those who cite the Bible as a just cause to interfere with the relationships of others do so with a smug sense of justification....God's wishes or Jesus' teachings...but ignore those same teachings as about 50% of Christian marriages end in divorce....something Jesus (and Paul) spent a lot of time warning against.
Jesus also spurned or at least rejected the concept "traditional" family. "Leave your families and follow me" he said.
"Traditional family"... "traditional marriage"...there is no such thing.
I also think tradition is highly over-rated and used (much like religion) only when the user hopes it will sway others to a losing position. Riding horses to weddings used to be a tradition. Paying a dowry used to be traditional. Stealing the bride is traditional in an Italian wedding. Sending flowers to a wedding is traditional in some countries but others wait for the funeral.
In the past, it was traditional to beat a child for misbehaving. Now, you can go to jail and lose your childer for swatting them on the butt with a fly swatter, but nothing happens if you take them to church where they are brainwashed to hate others, or you allow them to use pacifiers for years and destroy their teeth and self-confidence.
Tradition? I say we'd wiser to leave that out of the discussion.
And yes, I did intend to make you laugh.
I understand your meaning Bert...I just don't agree. Most of the justices that have been handed out recently have been cramped down the throats of somebody. We are talking about civil law...civil rights...not how those laws are accepted or rejected by some of society.
I may take some a while to change their personal perspectives...but the issue is here and now. How long would we have waited to abolish slavery for example...had we waited for a chance to give those in favor of slavery a "graceful exit from their untenable positions."
I think it would upset a lot of people who think semantic distinctions are a matter of life and death but it has its good points.
At this point, the explanations are out there, we've shouted, "Stop!", and some people are still making a conscious choice to hurt others through words, actions, and votes. I think it's time to force consequences. Since I don't have the power to ground them from video games or church services, the only thing I can do is dish out a little of their own medicine and hope it's so bitter they decide to throw it out.
In addition, there are very practical reasons for allowing it, which I noted in a comment on a previous article. Gay persons would likely marry someone more appropriate for them instead of hurting someone of the opposite sex by marrying them. And gay marriage would bring more commitment and add more love to the world.
I also think this is one reason people think allowing gays to marry will hurt their own marriages. They probably know they are married to someone who has done the same and are afraid that, as more people accept them for who they are, their spouses will leave.
I am very thankful that there are citizens like you who truly care about whether America honors its declaration to the world of being dedicated to ensuring equality for all people. I have a blog that I'd like to share with you about this subject as well. It's at:
http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/page/Aaron%27s+Story
Please keep writing... you are one of the people who illuminates our nation, rather than darkens it.
Thank you so much.. Aaron (aaglaas)
Many of the points I tried to bring into the conversation recently had more to do with the fact that homosexuality was not spurned, rejected, or abused by society in the past or by most cultures. It was Christianity that changed acceptance of homosexual/lesbian relationships to that of something evil and despicable.. all based on what Solomon, son (bastard child, born of deceit, murder and lust) of David and Bathsheba wrote.. and from that, Constantine's sons decided to outlaw homosexual marriage.
Rome fell politically within due to becoming complacent, and weakening it's military might but through the Church, it has to this day remained in power, ruling most of the earth by by a revised religion called Christianity inundated with pagan traditions.
It simply amazes me that corrupt people from biblical times onward have been held in such high esteem, (even by their God) governing the common people, putting to death and judging the masses so harshly.... while the masses hardly question this, following out of fear and ignorance.
To give you an example of some cultures untainted by Christian religious views, we only need to look as far as our own back yard and it's past; The "Native American Indians". They were called "Two Spirit People", and were highly regarded as gifted people from the "Creator". They were healers, Shaman, intellectual, artistic and very important to their societies. They were loved, not ridiculed.. and I believe the American Indians understood "The love of God" more than any religious zealot could have.
Are you suggesting that the priviliges bestowed on hetero married couples should be rescinded? That's an interesting idea...one that I had not contemplated.
You present an interesting suggestion that circumvents the definition argument quite well. But I will defer farther comment on that for a later time. What struck me the most about your article was the disparities you noted between the privileges given to same-sex couples and straight couples. I think if the gay rights proponents presented their case as a purely equality issue, where the only demand is to eliminate these disparities, they will find many more sympathetic ears.
It is possible, I, for example – as a strong believer in preserving the definition of marriage as being one between a man and a woman, and notwithstanding my sentiments about the act of homosexuality itself – could be a strong supporter of eliminating these disparities. And I think there are many others who may have similar views.
But as I begin to consider whether it is right to extend the privileges granted to married couples to same-sex couples, the first question that comes to mind is whether it is right to give special privileges to any couple to begin with? I think that is the logical starting point. Too many times, discussion on gather quickly deteriorate into utter confusion because people proceed without answering some fundamental questions.
I think, in this case, we must first ask: why does the government grants special privileges to married couples? Is it right? Why?
There was one more thing that was included in my initial comment not included above, I will just include it here as a side note.
I have heard many pro gay rights people express frustration about Christians that open and close their argument with the teaching of the bible. I can sympathize with that sentiment. Even though I consider the bible an authority in my life, I realize that it doesn’t make much sense presenting its teachings as in an argument with people who don’t consider it to be an authority. But I think it is equally frustrating when pro gay rights group open and close their argument with their firm belief. I think the discourse will be much more productive if people logically present their case based on precepts that are universally accepted; and just inserting the word “fair” and “rights” does not qualify an argument for that.
Are you suggesting that the priviliges bestowed on hetero married couples should be rescinded? That's an interesting idea...one that I had not contemplated.”
Not necessarily, Bert. I am Just wondering how people feel about it. I think that question should first be examined before we proceed to extend it...wouldn’t you say?
And the question is fundamental to the question of extending it to same-sex couples because that question should largely depend on whether same sex couples meet the criterion for the reasons that the privileges are given to heterosexual couples.
Your move.
When a gay couple get married, who is the one that changes their last name? I wonder how they determine which one would change it.. or is it obsolete, since women can elect to keep their own last names in a heterosexual marriage, but most do not exercise this right.
Your move.”
First, it is not about making moves; I am not trying to be contentious, Bert. I am making an honest attempt to understand your perspective.
These privileges that are granted to married couples, whether they are extended to same-sex couples or not, will remain discriminatory by DESIGN, for they are only offered to certain segments of the population. I wanted to know how you feel about that. You said married couples are given these privileges because their union is “considered desirable”. When you say they are “considered desirable”, are you saying it approvingly, or just stating a fact?
If you approve, what about it is desirable? Do you think that same-sex unions possess these same desirable qualities? And who makes the final judgment on what constitutes a desirable quality?
It seems you hinted on the answer to my last question on your last comment. You said that “[t]he policies supporting that have been arrived at by political consensus over a long period of time.”
So, my last question – do you think this “political consensus” is at hand for extending these privileges to same-sex couples?
It's a good question. As I have stated elsewhere, a tax break for one group is a tax on everyone else, because they must provide the missing revenue. This is true of tax exempt organizations like churches.
Should people who choose to remain single, or rent an apartment pay higher taxes than those who marry and buy a house? When I look at it objectively, it is hard to justify such a policy.
What do you think?
I take any privilege that is discriminatory by design with a grain of salt. But for some cases, like the two cases you mentioned above, for example – special privileges for home owners and married couples – I am very much inclined to approve. The reasoning is, the more people buy homes or get married, the country as a whole gains; or, as you put it succinctly, those occurrences are desirable; and of course, if you buy into this theory, as I do, you would be willing to support reasonable measures that would encourage the frequency of these occurrences.
But, still, I can see how the privileges granted for married couples can be hard to justify. And, what’s more, I still have some doubts on how effective of an incentive the privileges are in encouraging marriage. But, I doubt the country is anywhere near ready to have an objective discussion on this. So, whether it makes sense or not, it will be around for a long time to come.
And as far as extending the privileges to same-sex couples, this is my thoughts: I don’t think the unions of same-sex couples are necessarily good for the country as a whole. So if I am to follow the reasoning I outlined above, it would not seem that I will be for extending these privileges to same-sex couples – but I am. And the reason is simple:
I believe this issue is very divisive, and having it front and center is harmful for the country. So, obviously, reaching some kind of consensus and quenching it would be very beneficial for the country as a whole. So, by the reasoning I outlined for grounds to give special privileges, extending privileges given to married couples to same-sex couples is reasonable.
That's your personal opinion, and I appreciate the fact that you are frank enough to state it. That does not make it correct, though, but I'm not sure I could give you a set of criteria to define correctness in this case. Obviously, I disagree. If marriage is deemed desirable by a majority of Americans, then I cannot see why it is undesirable for any Americans.
Slavery was divisive. Civil rights was divisive. I'm not sure I agree that confronting this issue is "harmful" to the country. We should not ignore injustice just because confronting it is divisive.
Short answer, Bert: The biggest reason that marriage is beneficial to the society is because it will reduce the number of children that will be born out of wedlock; obviously, same-sex union is quite irrelevant to this.
"Slavery was divisive. Civil rights was divisive. I'm not sure I agree that confronting this issue is "harmful" to the country. We should not ignore injustice just because confronting it is divisive."
At the time they were being confronted, their divisive nature was harmful to the country -- remember the civil war. But of course, the fight for fundamental human rights was well worth all the temporary harms. And I hope you are not trying to create an equivalency between these struggles and the current gay rights issue, because, as a black man and as a human being, I resent that comparison. You need a lip of logic to create an equivalency between gays being able to get some special privileges and man and woman gaining their freedom from slavery -- yes, I hope you are not suggesting an equivalency, Bert.
Dictated largely by my understanding of the bible, I am convinced that homosexuality is wrong. But I am also a firm believer in the separation between church and state. So, I am for equal rights for all gay man and woman. For example, I don’t think that it would be right to allow the constraints that was put on black people before the triumph of civil rights to be put on gay man and woman -- for example, I think they should have the right to go to any school of their choosing, but they already have that right; I think they should be able to vote, but they already have that right; I think they should have the same right that everyone else have to choose their sit on the buss, but they already have that right. I don’t think they should have the right to unilaterally change the definition of marriage -- but I don’t think any group/sect should have that right.
And as far as privileges like tax cuts for same-sex unions, I have a hard time justifying it. But, as I have expressed, I have some reservation whether it is justifiable to grant these privileges to heterosexual marriages. I can, say without reservation that gay couples should have rights like granting their mate the access for hospital visitations that is generally reserved for only immediate family.
You see, Bert, I am as adamant about fighting injustice as you are. We only differ in our perceptions of injustice.
If I were gay, I would resent your condescending acknowledgemnt of my rights for hospital visitations, while denying me all the other thousand-or-so benefits and privileges that the GAO has enumerated for married couples. I won't address further your 'reservations' about those benefits, except to say if heterosexuals get them, so should homosexuals.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this, Jonathan, and I hope you are not angry or resentful because I do not agree with you. I respect your opinions, and I acknowledge that, at least at the moment, your views are held by more Americans than mine.
I am neither angry nor resentful because you did not agree with me, Bert. Even if we end the exchange with an agreement to disagree, I do so with a positive feeling about the dialogue -- it was a pleasure.
I said I resent the notion of equating slavery with the current gay right causes. I just don’t think there is any equivalency in the injustice between men and women being treated like property, and gays not being granted some privileges. If gays was enslaved, I would no doubt fight with great determination for their freedom. But I don’t think that gays should have, for example, the right to change the definition of marriage -- I don’t think any group should have that right. And that is equal rights in my book.
“If I were gay, I would resent your condescending acknowledgemnt of my rights for hospital visitations, while denying me all the other thousand-or-so benefits and privileges that the GAO has enumerated for married couples.”
This is my statement concerning the hospital reservation…
“I can, say without reservation that gay couples should have rights like granting their mate the access for hospital visitations”
….how is that condescending?
As far as the other privileges like tax cuts, I have said I would be for reevaluating all such privileges, including those granted to heterosexual couples. I think we should come up with objectively defined criteria that would allow a group to qualify for these privileges. But, I think there may be too many ambiguous spots that would make that process impractical. So, the most practical thing would be to grant the same privileges that is granted to heterosexual couples to same-sex couples. The proposal should simply read something like “all privileges that is grated to married couples should be accessible to registered same-sex couples”. The only caveat I would insist on would be concerning adoption processes. I saw story on CNN today about a single gay man that became a father to two little girls via a surrogate mother. He said the fact that the girls don’t have a mother figure concerns him. I don’t doubt the man loves the two little girls, but I share his concern about the lack of a mother figure for his two little girls, and that is why I would insist on a caveat when it comes to adoption of children.
Come on, Jonathan. I just don't buy your 'reservations.' How many single parent families are there in this world? And you want to deny that to somebody because they are gay?
You need to think about this, Jonathan. Really, think about it. Are your feelings honestly concerned about the children, or are they the result of homophobia?
Get rid of marriage...problem solved.
Not to be so glib, but let folks enter into whatever kind of contract they want.
Big problem is the offspring; but I reckon that can be dealt with without dehumanizing the parents.
I think some kind of contract is needed to define child custody and distribution of assets in case of death or divorce. I don't think this can be left to the whim of the partners. The result would be a legal briar patch. So some "standardization" is needed for marriage contracts, IMO.
But I agree with you that there is nothing particularly "sacred" about the state of matrimony, despite what the Bible pounders would have us believe.
I concur. I think that your language is often wiser than perhaps even you consider.
I reckon that you spend some time choosing words.
Children are the big issue; all else is just legal fluff. Economically significant fluff.
I don't always succeed, and I sometimes (often?) get carried away when I am confronted with people who irritate or offend me.
I would like to be able to control this, but sometimes, particularly after a glass or two of wine, I tend to shoot from the hip.