New group: "Prove it!"

Good luck with the group, Ron.

Thank you, Heather. We'll see.

(Ogg, was that you rating without commenting?) : )

This is one of my great frustrations. A lot of people make outrageous assertions in comment threads that you know are wrong, but if you chase down every one of these things, it becomes almost a full-time job. I am sure many others feel the same way, so a lot of this stuff goes unchallenged, and readers are confused and misled as a result.
So...this is very worthwhile, Ron. Good idea.

Great idea, Ron. This is a much needed group and I'm glad you created it. Thanks.

Ron,

This is an excellent idea for a group! It is complicated by the fact that what all of us present on this media is mostly opinion. And actually proving it is not possible. We might assemble a formidable array of documentation, videos and supporting commentary but these don't necessarily prove anything. An exception would be if a person said someone said such and such and then presented a video of them actually saying it, that would pretty well prove it.

But I, like you, have asked many where they acquired certain information they are claiming as fact and I seldom get a reasonable response.

Luke K.,

That's too bad, you are missing out on so much!

The people you were debating with are completely impervious to evidence, unless it supports their position. Any evidence that goes against them is just further proof of the great conspiracy to suppress the "truth".

I'll join though, since I'm one of the hopeless debaters and linkers of information myself.

Where do you join?

Try this nonsense on for size Bert: "who we call poor in this country have the living standards on much of Europes [sic.] middle class." I actually made this person go hunt for his own documentation. It was so ludicrous that I couldn't even find anyone else making the claim; I have no idea how it got inserted in his head. He eventually got back to me with a Heritage Foundation study that mentioned both poverty and Europe, but it way off topic. I had to tell him to quit wasting my time, because as long as he entertained this as a possibility, there was no talking to him. This is likely to be the subject of my first post to the group.

Luke, you're right. What I'm talking about here is the lowest form of discourse. It's pretty much what people say to one another in a drunken fistfight.

Sandy, I'm so glad you like the idea. You are among one of the top Gather champions in confronting nonsense.

James, the arguments mentioned above came from two sources - John McCain's statements in the debates and (I assume) a Fox News commentator whose name I haven't bothered to learn to spell. I agree when someone calls me names it's pretty much impossible to disprove it; what should I do, produce my inlaws and employer as character witnesses? : ) and to what end? But from time to time one of these people blurts out "the truth" - something concrete enough to be disproven with evidence. Of course, "truth" is an elusive thing subject to all sorts of philosophical nuances, even though there are many who would dispute that ("moral relativism" you know).

"Any evidence that goes against them is just further proof of the great conspiracy to suppress the 'truth'." I must admit the limitations of debate in this area, Aniko. Good debaters can "prove" both sides of an issue. People who can't spell "debait" have an even greater distain for evidence.

Robert, I just sent you an invitation. That seems like the easiest way to answer your question.

This will be fun. I spent last night in the company of some die hard Rushies, no way to convince them but a lively debate. One woman actually had some intelligence while the rest of them you could see the Fox News ticker coming out of their mouths.

Faith is appropriate for religion, Ted, but when people try to apply it in the realm of politics they certainly do get fooled. I really suspect the idea that the American poor are better off than the European middle class - that must have been a Fox News quip. Thanks for stopping by, and we'll see how the group pans out.

Thank you, Ron. I know many people are disgusted with my abrupt approach. I learned what Aniko mentioned (The people you were debating with are completely impervious to evidence, unless it supports their position) several years ago and stopped wasting my time putting the evidence in front of them. At first, I was happy to do the research and bring it back. Later, I resented doing their work for them. And finally, I knew they knew the truth and wanted to see me waste my time, so I stopped. But you are correct - I should present the facts on which I base my opinions, for the sake of those who might care enough to read it. It's not all about the idiots and I lost track of that along the way.

I think we've all had some idiot monopolize our thoughts for hours - or days - Sandy. I've found though, if I catch them in a situation where they ought to just say "I misspoke" they won't take it back and I can keep hammering them with "prove it". I don't let them change the subject and will not permit the argument to move forward until they've proven that - say - the poor in America are better off than the European middle class.

The abrupt approach works too. I mean, why should we be the only outraged people in the world.

I don't let them change the subject and will not permit the argument to move forward until they've proven that - say - the poor in America are better off than the European middle class. This is what we should all do. Pose a question and refuse to do anything other than point out their failure to respond - until they either go away or respond. Martinchill did that and later, The Chive. If we all did it instead of allowing them to change the subject it would show how inept their 'arguments' are.

They let themselves fall into that trap, Sandy. They worship people who are pathalogically incapable of saying "oops." To admit they made a mistake is unacceptable. Of course, I don't tend to admit I was wrong, but I'm careful what I say, where they just spout off a mixture of "fact" and insults as though volume counts for something. The more they spew, the easier it is to cherry-pick the weakest thing they've said.

In the final analysis, though, presenting facts to people with conflicting ideas is unlikely to produce a change of opinion on their part. So, to a large extent, what we are doing here is futile. I am sorry to say that, but from long experience here on Gather, I am quite confident that I have changed no minds. It doesn't matter how much logic and reason I provide. Their minds are made up...and so is mine.
So...I hesitate to say this, but I must: What we are doing here is insignificant.
Sigh.

I never get any admissions from any of them that I changed their minds, Bert, but I do believe poking holes in their faith has an effect. Say that Fox commentator said something they then ran with and started to say to others, and then they get burned with the facts. Again, they won't admit that they have doubts about their faith, or that sometimes they catch themselves thinking their buddy has a nice butt, or that I knew the fair and balanced news was wrong, but I don't think they're completely stupid. I think when they think no one is looking they think things and do things they won't admit to. I also know they make me question my beliefs, and that alone makes the process worthwhile.

I'm just glad they can't fall back on the claim they have the will of the people behind them. That was very disheartening, because for a time it seemed to be true.

I hope you are right, Ron...that secretly, in the privacy of their own bedroom, they realize that their ideas are wrong-headed. As you say, they never admit it.
And debating with them makes me question my own ideas, and research the factual basis for them, so that my debating points are sharpened as a result. Maybe I should thank them for that.
But in the end, it seems that changing peoples' minds about things like gay marriage or womens' choice or stem cell research or...you name it...is almost impossible.

I agree with both of you - it's a thankless job and doubtful that we totally change many (if any) minds. But I do not believe there are many people without a conscience, and I think we probably make a few of them squirm and maybe a few others hate themselves too much to continue. My real hope, however, is to inform people who are watching. I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion, but I think everyone should have facts on which to base their opinions. We can give them access to the facts, explain how we've come to our opinions of those facts, and at least give them a fair chance when developing their own opinions.

I do think the viewers who don't comment benefit from seeing the scrapping play out. I don't think they get anything out of the name calling, but as Bert said, we - and they - get practice at honing our reasoning. That's useful.

It's snowing like hell here. Almost looks like Colorado. I'm off to himernate. Grants to write tomorrow. I'm glad I don't have to go outside to get to work.

Ron, a lot of right-wing Americans of the unsophisticated kind (since there's the elite kind as well, who know better) believe that Europe is a cesspool of poverty and decadence. The main reason for this, I think, is that it's supposed to be that way according to the ideology they've been fed--it's liberal and multicultural and feminist and "socialist" (by their standards, anyway), and those things are supposed to lead to economic collapse and weakness and being conquered by tyrants and all that. Many of them have read some article or book about how the collapse of the Roman Empire was brought about by the same things, and since it's the only thing they've read about world history (they've read a few more books about American history, especially the American Revolution), they use it generously and enthusiastically for everything.

Bert, there are also the silent readers who don't take part but think about what is going on. Many of them note who's responding to questions and providing rational arguments and evidence, and who's spamming with C&P propaganda or hurling insults in response.

Well, I'll give you a 10 and a comment. I like the idea of the group. There is the problem of standards- I bet yours are high, but some people will pull text from a blog and claim it refutes anything (say, Newton's Laws), and argue that it is elitist to use educated or expert sources. How to combat this sort of thing, I don't know, but I do waste a lot of time trying. I hope, as suggested by a number of the comments, that other readers get something from the discussion, even if I don't make headway with a particular individual. Anyway, onward with the truth and the proof!

Aniko, I suppose I've been very isolated from this assumption about Europe. Not only is my mother from Germany (and thus I've been there a couple times), but my parents didn't drink and spent a lot of time at home with us kids, encouraging us to learn and grow. I shudder at the level of abandonment that would be necessary for children to grow up thinking Europe is a place filled with poverty. It's like thinking Africa is populated by Hispanics, or Greenland is covered with rain forest. Thank you for clueing me in to this; I had no idea, and I'll now hear more about it (in the same way a person hears a word multiple times after hearing it for the first time).

James, as you may know, someone who will remain nameless has posted yet another mess of copy and past things that purport to prove Obama is a fraud. I have not commented on her post. Let her come to me; I'll score no points for her. I'm grateful your attention has been caught by this, and I welcome your participation.

To tell you the truth, my experience with the "decadent Europe" delusion comes more from the internet than real life exchanges. But then I live in the San Francisco area...

When I get the time, I'll try to find a recent example for you.

Aniko, I'd had plendy of contact with the uneducated, rural folks, and I can't say I'd heard from them that Europeans are poor. That's where I'm from. I seem to recall an assumption that their prosperity was somehow thanks to the U S of A, and that they were slow to repay us for their undeserved prosperity. But then, this same environment generated things said about minorities and women I would never, ever repeat. Poverty and ignorance is a toxic cocktail.

Great idea

Thank you, Priscilla.

Now, if only the "streamers" had earphones with which the "Prove It" crew could interrupt and challenge. But sadly, it's most likely that only the Prove It crew would think to bolster their assertions with links.

Thank you, Beryl. I intend to spend a bit of time assembling a crew - a brain trust of sorts. I'm thinking our willingness to work together would give us a considerable edge.

I love facts, even though the average debater says, "Facts ? We don't need no stinking facts!". I like you gumption. Let fly with the silver bullets of truth.

I like the vampire analogy, George. It reminds me of the phrase "emotional vampires", but in the case of Gather spats, the "logical vampires" suck the reason out of a debate by use of insults and logical fallacies.

Sounds interesting.

good luck

Ron, great idea....arm yourself with knowledge.

My grandmother used to quote this verse when a family fight broke out: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I have no idea about the attribution otherwise I would cite the origin.

My own observation is that once the seed of doubt is planted, it cannot be rooted out and discarded. The harder they fight, the bigger the cracks in their belief system--and the less likely it becomes that an admission of wrong belief is forthcoming.

I hope you will invite Richard Owl Mirror to join this group; I don't always agree with the position he takes or see the point of the questions he asks in order to invite debate, but I have to hand it to him....he is an EXCELLENT researcher.

Linda, the group is set up so anyone can invite people, and anyone can email the entire group - because when you post something looking for an answer, it's likely you need that answer in a relative hurry and the intention is that people will jump in right away and help you get what you need. I did my first post to the group today, and aside from being thought of as a bit naive, I got wonderful response (and the group has less than 20 members to start).