It’s Okay to believe there may be a God?

"... there is an intelligence behind the creation of the Universe ..."

On this we agree.

The pertinent question is not, "Does God Exist?" but rather "what does God want?"

The "intelligence behind creation " most likely does not want or need anything from humans and it belittles the majesty and magnitude of that force to suggest that it does. The "needy god of Abraham' is god created by man in the image of man.

You may find this ongoing conversation to your liking.

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977515060

"when we are dead, if we have done good and believe in this super being, the super being let us live with it in heaven and grants us a everlasting life in the spirit world. The down side is we can be sent to hell and live in everlasting life shoveling fuel on the giant fires of hell."

I've always thought that there was a flaw to the Heaven and Hell reasoning.

Heaven and Hell seem to be described in terms of physical sensations (endless pleasure, burning, etc.), but it seems unlikely that one would possess a physical body when they enter such a place.

"Heaven and Hell seem to be described in terms of physical sensations (endless pleasure, burning, etc.), but it seems unlikely that one would possess a physical body when they enter such a place."

Thats a good point!

"The pertinent question is not, "Does God Exist?" but rather "what does God want?"

Looking at the holy books it seems God wants to play a rather heavy SIMs game of good against evil, its rather stacked in Gods favor as Ggod created the Devil.

Looks like the Devil is being given a running chance before God play's the ace up the sleeve. lol

"... its rather stacked in Gods favor .."

Ah yes, god the tormenter, a worthwhile passtime for an omnipotent and omniscient being.

I believe in my God, all these other gods and the people who follow these other gods make me wonder.......

Robin...It's kind of funny...the self doubt of the believer and the self doubt of a non-believer...contrasting philosophies with a common denominator.
"What if a God or Gods really do exists yes I am sure at times you may wonder and lets be honest about it, its at times when we think of dying."...hence the foxhole atheist syndrome.

Maybe or rather certainly our concept of a god or a supreme being has been overly influenced by the efforts of those with a religious agenda which has never been without the control of a political power agenda. In fact...I believe the religious movement IS a political power movement in the form of a Trojan horse. The problem, struggle has not been HOW TO CONTROL people...the struggle has been WHO GETS to control people.

So for us who are willing to actually question the nature of our purpose, our origin and our final destination...we have to first overcome thousands of years of misdirection and we must accept that certain questions will go unanswered. Unless we are willing to substitute speculation for the truth or accept speculation as the truth...we will just have to settle for as much as we can actually discover by using our minds, our science and our accumulation of knowledge. Wild speculation and wishful thinking cannot be accepted if we are truthful with ourselves.

Which brings me to my OPINION as to your question..the title to this post. Open minded is a quality that must have limits. That limit is called 'skepticism' and we must employ our skepticism or we will never seek real truths...we will settle for less than the truth because we will be encouraged to stop looking. That is the effort of religion. Without skepticism...our open mindedness will only act as a barrier...not a method of inquiry, but a reason to quit looking.

MrsRoad Runner says..."I believe in my God, all these other gods and the people who follow these other gods make me wonder....... "

See what I mean? I believe in my God...period.

"... there is an intelligence behind the creation of the Universe ..."

This may or may not be...but your conclusion is one of speculation....even in the broad(est) definition of "intelligence"...intelligence cannot be considered as a concept without allowing for some kind of conscientiousness. This I do not buy....unless I can be furnished some kind of verifiable evidence. Until that time comes..I will not speculate..I will just...not know. For me, any other conclusion would be a substitute, 'fill in the blank because I can't think of any other explanation'... answer.

"ntelligence cannot be considered as a concept without allowing for some kind of conscientiousness."

My opinion or lets say theory is:

The evidence is all around you and you are part and parcel to it. Yes your part of natural events we call nature. Some scientist would say that life started by accident but look at what has happened since life started, evolution has led to all this, this is no accident.

The inteligence is the natural laws that have formed such a beautiful universe and then beautiful inteligent beings such as us. Inteligence does not have to have a consciencesness but a set of rules and paterns. One can build a robot and program the rules to make it do inteligent things, the same rules or similar rules (if it was constructed differently) would have to be given to another robot to do the same inteligence things. ntelligence cannot be considered as a concept without allowing for some kind of conscientiousness.

If the program is a natural one, no need for conscientioness.

"I believe in my God, all these other gods and the people who follow these other gods make me wonder..." At a guess I would say that those that believe in other Gods or god are wondering too.

"So for us who are willing to actually question the nature of our purpose, our origin and our final destination...we have to first overcome thousands of years of misdirection and we must accept that certain questions will go unanswered. Unless we are willing to substitute speculation for the truth or accept speculation as the truth...we will just have to settle for as much as we can actually discover by using our minds, our science and our accumulation of knowledge. Wild speculation and wishful thinking cannot be accepted if we are truthful with ourselves."

Totally agree....

One thought that pop up last night is in those last breaths we take before we die what will we be thinking.

Atheist: What if there is a god will I be forgiven

Theist: What if there is no god oh I hope there really is.

I think there is a bit of skepticism in most of us especialy free thinkers; what ever statements we make through out life, we secretly want solid proof of our convictions.

As an atheist I see loop holes within religous thinking but those loop holes seen within the reliious text that to me show that religion is man made and there are no god or gods involved controling or effecting our life's. There again thats not solid proof that there are no gods its only proof that man has wrote controdictions, myths and magic into the holy text that simply do not hold water were as scientific fact and theories do at least to many of us.

We differ on our definition of the term "intelligence".

"The evidence is all around you and you are part and parcel to it. Yes your part of natural events we call nature. Some scientist would say that life started by accident but look at what has happened since life started, evolution has led to all this, this is no accident."

No it's not an accident...it is trial and error.

"One can build a robot and program the rules to make it do inteligent things, the same rules or similar rules (if it was constructed differently) would have to be given to another robot to do the same inteligence things."

The robot would not be doing intelligent things...it would be following the program of an intelligent being. Robots are high tech puppets. If the time ever comes that Moore's law (computer power doubles every eighteen months) does not collapse and silicon chips are replaced by a technology that allows for even smaller transistors...(Moore's law will breakdown at the molecular level) and we move to quantum computers for example...then certainly we may produce computers that can process more information than we can...but is this really intelligence?

"There again thats not solid proof that there are no gods its only proof that man has wrote controdictions, myths and magic into the holy text that simply do not hold water were as scientific fact and theories do at least to many of us."

There is not solid proof that god exists, there is not solid proof that god does not exist. It's a pointless area of debate. If a creator can exist without a creator, then the universe can exist without a creator. If matter has always existed, there was never a beginning and there will never be an ending. This universe may be a result of a big bang, and at some point it will collapse and perhaps begin again...and this may have been going on for countless eternities and maybe always will.

"I think there is a bit of skepticism in most of us especialy free thinkers; what ever statements we make through out life, we secretly want solid proof of our convictions."

Skepticism is what helps define an atheist my friend, but also the realization that solid proof is not going to be available to us for many of our beliefs and our hunches. We will have to be content to understand that we will never have all the answers. The skeptic will not settle for a substitute answer...

May I offer this observation? It seems to me Robin, that you are struggling with the notion that your beliefs as an atheist may be in error. I wouldn't attempt to persuade you to abandon those doubts...it's not my place. But I do not share your doubts about the possibility of the existence of a god. So you might say the same type of faith that drives people to believe also drives some of us not to believe. Maybe I just don't need to believe. Maybe some people do need to believe. But my non-belief was not a decision or a choice....I simply do not believe and I am very comfortable with my non-belief.

"The robot would not be doing intelligent things...it would be following the program of an intelligent being."

The universe is programmed by its limitations what we would call natural laws. I suggest that those natural laws existed before the birth of the universe and those laws are behind the universes creation and existance.

"May I offer this observation? It seems to me Robin, that you are struggling with the notion that your beliefs as an atheist may be in error..." If I had doubts you would be right to make such an observation. But no I am not struggling as I have my own theries that make logic sense to me.

I certainly however debate with myself of the possibilities that I could be wrong but that alway confirms to me that I am indeed on the right track as a weak atheist. Its actually a human trait as a free thinker to question your own belief in fact many of whom have a religious belief have their moments of thoughts about there religious convictions and if god exists. (Even Priests, Rabbi's and Clericks)

On the religious side Jesus Christ is said to of asked "Why have you forsaken me" whilst being near to death.

I honestly think that anyone even if comfortable with their belief or non belief have brief doubts at times specially when they think about dying. One does not have to be struggling with a belief to have moments that one questions it, in reassurance that you following the correct path it a natural thing for anyone to do as a free thinker.

"The universe is programmed by its limitations what we would call natural laws. I suggest that those natural laws existed before the birth of the universe and those laws are behind the universes creation and existance."

Yes Robin...I believe that what is has always been and will always be.

"Its actually a human trait as a free thinker to question your own belief..."

Yes again...but the difference between the beliefs a theist considers and those of a non theist is this...the theist is questioning a belief or in his belief of a substitute answer...the substitution of an invented god or supreme being as the answer for a question we can not have. The non-theist continues to wonder...continues to accept that this is one of those questions for which we will never have answers.

But, if you believe that ALL non theists question whether or not they should have substituted god as an answer...I believe you are wrong. Remember...if man had not invented god, there would be nothing to doubt for any of us. There would be no theists...there would be to atheists. I believe it is the theist who struggles with his beliefs...and the agnostic who cannot rid himself of the influence of a, for the most part, theocratic world.

For me...the whole concept of wondering if I have made the right "choice" is not applicable because, as I have said, I did not choose. I simply do not believe. For me, self doubt about the existence of a god would be the equivalent of wondering (self doubt) if I will fall to the earth if I jump out of an airplane.

"But, if you believe that ALL non theists question whether or not they should have substituted god as an answer...I believe you are wrong. Remember...if man had not invented god, there would be nothing to doubt for any of us. There would be no theists...there would be to atheists. I believe it is the theist who struggles with his beliefs...and the agnostic who cannot rid himself of the influence of a, for the most part, theocratic world."

No I believe that many theist have moments of doubt about their non believe those with a scientific mind could however give no thought to the issue of a possible god.

But lets look at the views of Albert Einstein he struggled much with his disbelief and settled for a Spinoza's type God. Having a jewish and a christian background myself its hard to lose the cultural indoctrination concerning the religions it took me a long path to find my present belief or non belief.

I became free of my indocrinations and realised made made religion was used as a controlling device. Free thinking and questioning brought me to my atheist opinion, I once settled on pantheism as the answer but ended up more to the opinion that Spinoza opinion was partially nearer to the mark. I believe that there is a natural inteligence geared by natural laws behind the creation and what makes the universe tick. But this is no god no godess or any super natural entity.

Not all theist struggle with their beliefs the indocrination can be very very intense and the belief can not be questioned and they are indoctrinated not to question "The God acts in Mysterious ways brigade"

I believe that many humans struggle with their beliefs some more than others with and that does not set all athiests a side with some its at the back of their minds in fact the more free thinking one is religion will pop into ones thoughts in one sense or another.

I think that type of thinking increases the nearer one gets to death. natural survival could get one begging for straws. Equally many theist may have the same problem closer to deaths door.

My own approach to this death bed what if, could see me hedging my bets in twenty years years or so, hopefully longer, lol who knows. But I wonder how many other atheist honestly think of such things? Logic tells me they will or have. Not saying you will as you seem to have strong conviction that your on the right path of thought.

In this area I am not struggling with my belief but coming to terms with my human weakness and maybe the humor of hedging a few bets. lol


For me...the whole concept of wondering if I have made the right "choice" is not applicable because, as I have said, I did not choose. I simply do not believe. For me, self doubt about the existence of a god would be the equivalent of wondering (self doubt) if I will fall to the earth if I jump out of an

Ops... missed an answer for your stateent...

"For me...the whole concept of wondering if I have made the right "choice" is not applicable because, as I have said, I did not choose. I simply do not believe. For me, self doubt about the existence of a god would be the equivalent of wondering (self doubt) if I will fall to the earth if I jump out of an airplane"

If the natural rules of nature remain the same yes. But if you died of shock on the way down would it be you who hit the ground? lol

"If the natural rules of nature remain the same yes. But if you died of shock on the way down would it be you who hit the ground? lol"

Good point! Let me rephrase....'For me, self doubt about the existence of a god would be the equivalent of wondering (self doubt) if my body will fall to the earth if I jump out of an airplane'

"My own approach to this death bed what if, could see me hedging my bets in twenty years years or so, hopefully longer, lol who knows."

You will be making Pascal's Wager and you will be in the company of hundreds of thousands, probably hundreds of millions who have made the same hedge. ;-)

To save people looking up Pascals Wager

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Analysis_with_decision_theory

Yes thats very, very appealing to this weak willed weak athiest, lol

Oh but then we getting remarks such as one can not repent on ones death bed, but lets face it the guy next to jesus on the cross did and ended up in heaven. a can of worms. lol

So let put it another way if one lives a good moral life that meets with the acceptance of good morals of a good Jew, Christian or Muslim, how could God refuse entry to an atheist when many religious followers break commandments and sin and for ever asking to be forgiven. This so called God being ever forgiving would surely give tickets for the balconies of heaven to every good moral standing soul that entered the pearly gates.

Thanks I did not know about Pascals Wager.

Farmer Slim,

Have you noticed that the discussion on whether god exist or not always end up discussing dying. And it is always as we get older. I'm guessing Pascal must have thought about that too.

he main Religions have a reward of everlasting peace in heaven after death and most people are frightened to die. However yes when people get older the question of death or dying peaceful is a main thought in those quieter moments when we have time to think of things we dont really want to think about.

Death can be really scary foir most people however the thought of going to heaven makes death a reward than a penalty of living for some. Actual when nearer to death when one thinks its only a year or so away many old people come to terms with death reliion can help and does help many in their late years.

Alter and Robin...Pascal's wager is basically a struggle Pascal is having with his own perspective about the possibility of the existence of a god, he realizes that his wager is not a truly viable solution to his dilemma. Pascal believed that reason (logic) is not infallible and that the existence of a god is, odds wise, the same as a toss of a coin. Actually, in my opinion, pure logic is infallible, but it is the exercise of logic that is not perfect...(we make mistakes). Anyway, Pascal misses the point on several levels (if you take his wager literally which I don't think he intended).

One of the problems with Pascal's wager is that he bets that he has everything to gain and nothing to lose if he chooses to believe in god. The obvious confusion is what god to believe in. If one chooses to believe in the Christian god then the danger is going to a Muslim hell if the god of Islam turns out to be the real god. Apply this to all the religions of the world and you narrow your 'odds' further.

I believe that Pascal's wager is impossible because belief or non belief in a god is not a choice. I can't say that I believe in god "just in case" unless I really believe in god...in which case I wouldn't need to make the wager.

"In which case I wouldn't need to make the wager" are you certain thats the case when its your turn to meet the reeper? lol. I think it does not matter as what ever one thinks or believes in at the time of death its all lost in nothingness. Life is more of important worry to me I would prefer to be ablre to think at that moment before death I came enjoyed and hurt no one that did not deserved to be hurt. life was interesting and enjoyable. But of course life is not completely enjoyable its stressful and sometimes boring, but we can but try to live it the best way we can.

I don't think my physical brain is capable of understanding anything like the concept of God represents. I don't think it can even comprehend the observable part of the universe. So I have no idea whether there is a God or not.

But on another level, what difference does it make. The universe is and we are a part of it whether it was created by God or not. The Bible and the Church are of man and man's ideas and man's writing and interpretation and so forth. They provide me no clue as to what difference it makes whether God is or is not.

God is omnipotent and therefore doesn't need me at all. If God exists, I don't matter. If God doesn't exist then nothing matters. So what difference does it make?

Athiest on deathbed -- "Could I have been wrong all these years?"

Theist on deathbed -- "I hope I don't go to hell."

Agnostic on deathbed -- "Now what?"

Robin...You've misunderstood this sentence.."I believe that Pascal's wager is impossible because belief or non belief in a god is not a choice. I can't say that I believe in god "just in case" unless I really believe in god...in which case I wouldn't need to make the wager."

I'm saying that to say "I believe in god" just in case...is not really believing in god...it is a worthless statement. It's like saying "I love liver" just because your wife's mother has served a big liver dinner....saying you love liver and really loving liver are two different things. However If one believes in god...no wager is necessary.

Larry..."The Bible and the Church are of man and man's ideas and man's writing and interpretation and so forth. They provide me no clue as to what difference it makes whether God is or is not. God is omnipotent and therefore doesn't need me at all. If God exists, I don't matter. If God doesn't exist then nothing matters. So what difference does it make?"

Aaah. The guys who wrote the bible thought of that..and so they included the threat of eternal damnation. They couldn't afford to allow people the luxury of a "wait and see" attitude. Reward or damnation...live eternal or eternal burning in hell. "Can't have folks sitting on the fence if we want an honest to our invented god religious monument. Gotta provoke action. Gotta offer a deal. There must be consequences for not hopping on this band wagon."

That's what is conversation is all about Larry...the fear (that the bible instills) that we have made the wrong choice if we do not believe.

No I dont think misunderstood I just looked at it in a different way.

I can't say that I believe in god "just in case" unless I really believe in god...in which case I wouldn't need to make the wager."

my...

"I think it does not matter as what ever one thinks or believes in at the time of death its all lost in nothingness"

Was admitting the wagers worthless but if took what does it matter at the time of death as any given thought of believe or disbelief or trying to hedge bets is pointless because at the end one simply does not exist.

"That's what is conversation is all about Larry...the fear (that the bible instills) that we have made the wrong choice if we do not believe." Also the torah and koran install similar fears.

"what does it matter at the time of death as any given thought of believe or disbelief or trying to hedge bets is pointless because at the end one simply does not exist."

Yes and that is what I believe. Death is an end of one's existence.

Robin...I've got the perfect solution for those who want to guarantee a place in heaven...or at least avoid hell. Worship every god you have heard about, read about or think might exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8&feature=channel

Knowing that most gods are an egotistical bunch don't you run the chance of pissing one of them off? you may end up doing some horrible task for the rest of your life like pushing a rock up a hill only to watch it roll down the hill again.

"Robin...I've got the perfect solution for those who want to guarantee a place in heaven...or at least avoid hell. Worship every god you have heard about, read about or think might exist." That similar to what the romans did, when they conqued other nations and countries and liked the gods and religion of their new subjects, they normally added a new temple in roman and took on one more new religion.

After Motive.

"Knowing that most gods are an egotistical bunch don't you run the chance of pissing one of them off? you may end up doing some horrible task for the rest of your life like pushing a rock up a hill only to watch it roll down the hill again." That all most a chinese opinion, lol

Alter..."Knowing that most gods are an egotistical bunch don't you run the chance of pissing one of them off?"

You certainly do. There is just no way to win the pick a god contest....unless you just don't play..

All this only demonstrates how ridiculous the whole notion of religion is.

I'm glad you came back at the end with "But fellow atheist I don’t think I am alone" because I was offended earlier by, "when we think of dying."

I truly appreciate this article and the honesty about your doubt, but see no reason to assume it onto others. Be proud of who you are, of your deep thinking, of your willingness to share your exploration with others, and not ashamed to claim it - even if you are the only person who believes as you do.

I don't know if anyone else has the exact same beliefs that I have, or if my version of god (unlike any I've met while studying religion or listening to people who talk about God) would satisfy anyone but me. With that said, I've been near death several times, did not cry out to any God, and came away from those experiences with no fear of death.

Human nature makes most of us a bit dishonest when it comes to questioning our beliefs or non beliefs we try to hide our fears.

For anyone to say they do not fear death in most cases means they do, I myself have also been close to death on many occasion and lived to tell the tales as a professional soldier. Unlike you I came away realising life is precious and death is somethin to respect and fear.

For many years I have hidden that fear and not realised that others that shared my experiences had feared death as well, later in life sharing our memories my ex military friends have admitted their fears as well. Fear is in fact a healthy thing to have as it helps us to survive.

I know some people have no fear and in the military its those people that take to many chances and end up being a casualty or worst still dead. Being a dead hero has never been an option for me or most of the soldiers that served with me.

Of course I have hid be hind machoness when younger and have realised that when under fire one has no time for fear and training kicks in and after a while it becomes less fearful but one still keeps the head down the fear is still there but controlled. Now days I am more honest with myself and to others concerning such things, such wiseness comes when old age creeps in.

I am not trying to offend just to be truthful, I am not assuming but presenting a string of logical thought glean from others talking honestly about subjects concerning human nature. I already know that many people question there own beliefs, thoughts and fears and how some people are in fact frightened to be honest not just with others but themselfs. Its actually a hard thing to do for some of us and I am not suggesting thats the way with you.

I agree with Michael that Pascal's Wager is useless to the non-believer, because you can't make yourself believe. You either do or you don't. It's invariably believers who use it to justify their belief -- they're usually the intelligent ones who realize that "the Bible tells me so" and "the Church must be right" are hardly rational arguments, and they're searching for one that appears to be rational on the basis of self-interest.

I also agree that it's a false dilemma, as the number of potential deities and their potential requirements is infinite. Among other possibilities, God could exist and not give a hoot whether you believe in him or not, or he could require that you only eat green things with green things and orange things with orange things. There'd be no "safe choice" even if belief were a choice.

Robin, your theory that everyone fears death is unfalsifiable if you declare that anyone saying otherwise is being dishonest or in denial. That's not a good way for a theory to be. :-)

More importantly, I think we're confusing two things here. A flight-and-fight response (which you're right, I think, that everyone experiences in a situation of immediate danger) is different from the kind of feeling that makes one wish there was something after this life. We tend to use the words "fear" for both, but I think they're completely different phenomena. And what matters here is the latter, not the former. You could be the kind that completely freezes under fire, but if you really do not believe there's an afterlife, and you do not feel the need that there should be one, you won't have a sudden conversion. Like the "choice" in Pascal's Wager, it's just not there.

"your theory that everyone fears death is unfalsifiable if you declare that anyone saying otherwise is being dishonest or in denial. That's not a good way for a theory to be. :-)"

My theory said many not everbody and many of those get great solice out of the belief that there is a heaven and an after life. Many people and I am one of them do not want to suffer a lingering and painful death and many will not be honest about their fears. The problem with age is when you retire you have more time to think about life and then death.

I have come to terms with my fears and think that one only gets one chance at life and its more important to worry about living it as well as one can with out intentional hurting anyone else than that blank an non existance when one dies. The lingering pain thing well if that happens there is not a lot one can do about it as thats the hand that fate may give one.

As for sudden conversions on the death bed not sure that some people may have that plan and its certainly not my plan and if there was even a small chance there was I would prefer to go to hell or just ceace to exist as heavens seems so boring and eternal life totally boring and holds no attraction for me.

I would not take Pascal's Wager logic states it would not work but I bet some atheist will its sods law. The fact that Catholic's feel that repenting their sins on their death bed will increase their chances to get in to heaven makes that a religious waver. Their God of course ever forgiving hmmmmm..........

Sorry should read "not everbody but many"

You hedged your "anyone" and "most people" repeatedly, but the thrust of your argument was what I gathered, I think -- that you just don't really buy it when people say they don't fear death. And I do know the denial you're talking about well. But you can usually tell that is the case because people avoid the topic of death and dying consistently. Where I disagree is that people who feel that way will wait until they're about to die to start believing "just in case". I think they already do believe--they just don't feel the immediate need to go to church and read the Bible and all that when there are more fun things to do.

In other words, I don't think it's anyone's plan to convert on their death bed, but if it were, it would mean that they already believe, wouldn't it? If they don't, what on earth would they want to achieve with that conversion? (The Catholic of course already believes. It's about confessing your sins because you believe God wants you to do that.)

I know that some people do not fear dying some even enjoy dicing with death. Some people come to terms with death with the help of their faith. Many old or termally ill people wish to die whilst sleeping that is of course I think possibly the biggest volumn of death wishes.

I was once indoctrinated with the belief it was healthy to fear death and be scared as hero's are the first to die in battle. I have also done some very hair raising and dangerous things in my youth and in my early military career. As I have got older it gets scary climbing a ladder, where as in my youth I enjoyed climbing mountains and risk taking used to give me a buzz. I loved speed and fast motor bikes etc, etc and think nothing of standing right on the edge of a cliff looking down.

As you get older things change you get wiser and you know as I do death may not be that far away. Don't get me wrong I do not normally dwell on the problem of death but I do get worried about my health and really want to live a long life as I enjoy life so much and still have a lot to do and see.

On the thoughts of questioning belief on my path of becoming the athiest I am I have had many beliefs including a Christian one, in the society that I was born and raised in my schooling had a Church of England approach to religous instruction and to morning prays at assembly. I was softly indocrined into a Christian society that believed in christian values and that did not mean one had to go to church each and every sunday.

My parents certainly made no effort to seek solace or feel the need to visit a place to pray other than at home or work as a private relationship with their God.

Church was for babtism, weddings and funerals this I think was the normal Church of England way and many people from other religions in UK seemingly treated their religions the same but attended the house of pray a bit more often.

I questioned my beliefs in the Christian faith and became a pantheists, then questioned pantheism and found it simply just fit what I really felt comfortable with that there was an inteligence but not a god behind creation and the universe. I discovered my thoughts where more in line with Spinoza. But I listen and read about other beliefs and keep my mind open as a free thinker.

I do not believe in an after life but am sure the star dust that I am made of will be one and one again and still part of this beautiful universe and planet we live on. Possibly reincarnation could be possible and my thought are open to that as nothing seems to be wasted thats the nature of this planet that we live on.

I however feel there is nothing wrong believing there is a possiblity that there is a God. But let me finish that sentence with but if there is its not the conception given of a god or god that man made religion has developed its a Spinoza God one that does not make rules for us to obey. One that can not promise an after life and one you see a very microscopic part of each and everyday. Many a soul seemingly miss whats under their very nose.

God in all its splender the universe, nature and you are part and parcel with it, this is no super natural being. tut tut open up your eyes and you will see. Isn't it amazing wow, all onimus your never see its beginning or end.

One will never be able to confess to this inteligence or totally understand it's existance or why you are a part of it and your the only part of it thats important to you though overs of you kind made up of this star dust could or are just as important or even more important to that inteligence of eons of years of evolvement of a universe and evolution of of your kind.

Of course many people have taken Pasco's Wager and many more thought and still think that it was the way and is the to heaven to confess their sins in church and on their death bed. Its also sods law that many atheist of whom are free thinkers question everything even the possiblity in the broader sense that there may be or possibly be a God. But many would never dream about it and are locked into scientific facts and scientific theories that really do not give hard evidence that a God does not exist as any of the Holy Books give evidence that a god or gods exist.

We do have evidence that religion has been used as a tool of power over human kind and that that use has been in the hands of those that fit the tag of followers of the devil. We do know that religion is based on doing good not bad and a lot of good does come from religious sources.

Unfortunatly the scales only balance and I for one wish that good really did start to tip the scales and those that have made religion a profit making business and not performing or following the path of the teachings of prophets.

On the point of confessing sins I wonder how many times Jesus thought one could confess the same sort of sins, my view just one time only and not a regular weekly base etc. In fact once one knows the ten commandments well there should be no escuse for sinning let alone constant sinning. But however thats just this poor old weak athiest opinion.

peace be with you.

On the point

Should read...

Unfortunatly the scales only balance and I for one wish that good really did start to tip the scales and those that have made religion a profit making business and not performing or following the path of the teachings of prophets where chuck out of these cults and religous organizations.

My response to your title question: of course it is.

There is first of all nothing wrong with believing in what you call Spinoza's god/Einstein's god, which Einstein liked to define as the orderliness of the universe. I think practically everyone believes in that "entity". (It could be argued that some religious fundamentalists who expect miracles that defy the laws of physics don't). The difference between Einstein and people who call themselves atheists seems to be mainly whether it's a good idea to call this impersonal principle "God". (I don't think so. Einstein was of course immensely smarter than I am, but then he was also unaware of cultural trends that would take place after his death.)

I'll go further and say that I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in a more personal kind of deity that cares about us, loves us, etc. The "problem with religion" starts when we begin to attribute very specific interests and positions to this deity and try to get others to accept them. (These of course tend to be the exact interests and positions we happen to have. God has a remarkable tendency to agree with the believer. :-)

I would have to change that last line or add a new one "God has a remarkable way to agree with the leaders or thats what the religious leaders wish to think. Top of the throne example is the Pope the top Honcho of the Catholic religion.

"I'll go further and say that I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in a more personal kind of deity that cares about us, loves us, etc."

I believe that there IS something WRONG with having a belief in a personal god (who cares about us, loves us, listens to our prayers etc.) Faith in a god is non productive thought process that damages one's ability to address life in an honest and direct manner. It is a dodge, a crutch...a method of evading or escaping reality. The acceptance of a glorification of falsehoods is simply a way to furnish comfort for oneself and only provides for the rationalization that self deception is acceptable.

"Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom."

Bertrand Russell

In my opinion, the notion that 'a little religion can't be all that bad' is dangerously misleading. It's not the belief in a god or gods...it's the process of self delusion that allows for that belief that is a roadblock in the path of rational and logical thought and the never ending search for the real truth, the real answers...not substitute truths subscribed to for the purpose of furnishing comfort or as a method to deal with insecurities and fears.

Michael, I also think that it's preferable to face the world as it is instead of giving in to fantasies based on wishful thinking. Also, believing things without a good reason in one instance confirms the tricks the cognitive system uses to achieve this belief and makes them more likely to be applied to other things as well, which can definitely have negative consequences.

However, if the question is reduced to someone simply believing there's a God who loves them and listens, without any judgmental aspect, and I want to be consistent to my moral principle --the presence or absence of harm to others, I have to say that such a pure belief, if possible, is "okay" in a moral sense. (It's wrong in the "is this true or am I making stuff up" sense.)

Aniko....It's not my purpose to judge or evaluate the choices folks make about a belief system on an individual level....it's not my business. But a general observation applied in the broad sense...MY OPINION... there is no such thing as a "pure belief" in that which is non existent. I'm not trying to split hairs...it's just that either one associates himself with (indulges in) delusional, non constructive, wishful thinking or one does not.

I just can't see any justification for a belief in any supreme being...regardless of how innocent or how little it may affect others....just for the sake of some kind of comfort or company.

There probably is a God - a power - greater than ourselves. It won't be found in religion where so many of the crimes against humanity originate. That is the division in my mind about these matters.

Michael, I admit used "pure" in a very imprecise sense. :-)

We concur in not seeing a justification for belief in a supreme being. My point was that I used "wrong" in a different sense--and I see no justification for condemning belief that's not harmful to others. That doesn't mean I approve of it, or I think it makes sense; just that I don't think it's morally wrong.

Aniko ...."and I see no justification for condemning belief that's not harmful to others."...agreed. I do believe that the likelihood of a personal belief being categorically "not harmful" to others is very remote. It is the nature of folks to share what they perceive to be "good news" or "valuable instruction" with others. And the overwhelming impulse is one of brain washing children (Okay...religious indoctrination)....they can't help it...they think it is their responsibility.

Also, the acceptance of an irrational thought process by believers is likely to spill over as an influence in the daily decisions which may impact others.

In short...I do not believe one can keep a religion private and thus insulate oneself from the influence of others.

"and thus insulate oneself from the influence of others."

Make that "insulate oneself from the influence on others."