You Wanted To Know; So Here I Go
The Undeniable's View On
P R O P 8
The Undeniable's View On
P R O P 8
I recently received a few messages/emails inquiring as to what The Undeniable's thoughts were regarding the Prop 8 situation. Look, who I love and want to commit my life to does not affect you and vice versa. Anyone who thinks 'gay marriage' will destroy the traditional institution of marriage is obviously fearful of what they do not understand. I think the sanctity of 'hetero marriage' died out years and years ago.
Beyond this ignorant way thinking, I have heard how permitting 'gay marriage' will hurt the children. I have to laugh at this unintelligent school of thought. Those who are so hellbent on the tradition of marriage say they are concerned that their children will learn that it is 'okay' to have same-sex parents. And this is bad because??? What about the children of same-sex parents who are being told that their parents are 'going to hell' or 'destroying the country'? Do these god-fearing people have any idea of the stress, humiliation and pressure they are putting on these kids? I guess the children of same-sex parents don't deserve to be treated as equals? There is that 'same-but-not-equal' thing. Hmm? Didn't we hear that once before in this country?
Which brings me to this thought... To all those lovely Mormon folks who are also black... Do you realize you were thought of as worse than a white homosexual up until 1978? You were considered 'possessed' because your skin is black. Heh-heh. And I saw some of you throwing punches to defend your illustrious religion. Shame on you and shame on many, many of the hetero black people in this country! There was a time, not so long ago, none of you had rights and you sure you liked the GLBT people who stood and fought by your side then. Don't you think it is time to return the favor? Martin Luther King, Jr would be appalled at what has become the hetero/religious black community in the United States.
This is great. I saw a 'slogan' which read, "Yes on Prop 8- Procreate!" Oh my. There are some really stupid haters out there. How many children are up for adoption and how many in foster care? Approximately 17% of children under the age of 16 are currently apart of the system. Yes! Procreate! Make more babies! We need more welfare children and dysfunctional gang-bangers and scam-artist preachers in the world. Hell, we need more people period, right? Sadly, there are people out there who want to foster/adopt many of these children to get them out of the system and offer them a better life, but they are gay and it appears that is also bad. Better to leave them in the system and let them rot. Prop 8... For the children?
Finally, as an Ex-Ordained & Licensed Minister, I want to approach this subject from a religious view. While the Deadly Desert Three (Mainstream Judaism, Muslim & Christian) complain that they want to maintain their rights to discriminate against the GLBT Community likewise, there are other religions in this country- even sects of Christianity that believe in GLBT marriage. Therefore, as a country, are we not taking away the right to freedom of religion? Unitarian Universalists, some sects of Judaism & Christianity, Pagans and Wiccans and some Hindu and Buddhists believe in and support 'gay marriage'. What about their right to the First Amendment?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
If my religion or church believes and supports gay marriage, then how can the government take away that right?
rate
email
print
link to this page
Comments: 197
What if a church or religion decides it's okay to murder gay people (some do) - Are you saying that the government would be unjustified in protecting the victims of these crimes merely because some religion or church condones such behavior?
What is law? What is its purpose? And on what do we base our laws?
Get a grip Undy. . .
-Mark
well, murdering folks (as christians historically like to do) and me marrying my partner- whether male or female- is a little different, wouldn't you agree?
now, i know this is a hard concept for christians and you've been taught to do this, but can we keep the conversation based on the issue- NOT wild theories and absurd comparisons? seriously, you know as well as i do that murder and marriage are completely different things... literally speaking of course. ;) heh-heh. there are those in those holy sanctified hetero marriages that may beg to differ. ;) hahahaaa.
I think people who vote against gay marriage do so simply because they feel it is immoral. Most hesitate to say that because then they get accused of racism even though most of those people also voted for a black man for President.
When I lived in California, i had a boss who was gay. And my sister-in-law is gay. I like them both very much and would never do anything to hurt them, although I don't think it would hurt them either way.
So I'm glad I didn't have to decide.
I wish I could have voted on their Prop 2, though, but that passed without me.
- maybe murder and adultery are different in your scale of balance but they were both on the two tables Moses hauled down from Mt. Sinai, weren't they?
If you break one part of the Law, you break it all. . .
How about the rule of law mate? Are we bound to honor the law?
-Mark
now, hunny, you need to go and read your history book and then you tell me that christians historically are not known for their murderous deeds in the name of god...
can we say spanish inquisition, salem witch trials, christians crusades?!?!?
puhlease.
and if many of those religious zealots thought they could get away with it, they would be slaughtering everyone and everything that didn't believe as they do. i was once a pastor, you know? been to a good many prayer meeting and conferences where prayers of '"god's" wrath to smite and destroy were sent up to the heavens.
take your head out of the sand, darlin'.
What religion?
furthermore, what about those christian sects- such as many presbyterians denominations, first christians, episcopalians- or the many wiccans, pagans, hindus and buddhists who view glbt marriage as a normal aspect and rite of their religion(s)?
hmm? it was those lovely christians that said slavery was biblical... that "tribes ought not mix"... funny, isn't?
Remember, my friends, the law isn't about anyone's moral code. It's about the protection of life, liberty, and property.
melissa... when you wrote, "...in 50 years people are going to look back on this and not believe that people would discriminate like this..." girl you was speaking words of wisdom. you are sooooooo right. ;) thank you!
nippy... thanx for the comment!!!
Remember, my friends, the law isn't about anyone's moral code. It's about the protection of life, liberty, and property.
What do you think the protection of life, liberty, and property is but an extension of someone's moral code?
Rob blusters:
Keep religion out of where it doesn't belong...separation of church and state. Churches have no right to dictate laws through their opinions.
That's your opinion - should we adhere to it religiously?
When you commit adultery - you are breaking the Law. Everyone loses. . .
-Mark
I am appalled by the notion that any 21st century government can put the concept of fair and equal treatment for all under the law to a popular vote. Or that anyone in this day and age would pass it.
I want to believe it was simply a matter of delusion and disinformation that could drive people to turn their backs on the happiness of their fellow citizens. I have a hard time understanding how any moral person, of any religion, could treat fellow humans as if their love were lesser and refuse to acknowledge their commitment.
Shame on us all.
gary... thank you for the comments!! please do not get too frustrated with mark. he is a good guy. he and i have gone around many, many times. know that he really does mean well, but he- like many others- have been duped into believing this silliness that if it's not "mainstream christian" then it must be wrong. there was a time that i was very much like him. i believed in the laws of the bible and this 'god' and really did mean well when i spoke out of me arse. you have no idea how many erroneous teaching christians received at their churches on a weekly basis. its really quite sad and they are taught not to read or learn from anything that is not "christian". try and give marky a break.
stephanie... i feel you, luv. i will say there was A LOT of misinformation on the television and in print here in california. there were television commercials that literally bold faced lied and said that passing prop 8 would keep homosexuals from being able to "convert" their children to homosexuality. lots of shite coming from where? oh yeah, the christians. heh-heh. go figure. surprise!!
You're kidding, right. The law is based on the assumption that people's life, liberty, and property should remain secure in order for society to run smoothly. Rather than pulling out Burke's trio maybe I should have gone for something less colorful like "the law isn't about morality; it's about making things run smoothly."
I suppose you could argue that it's a moral question but you quickly get to the interesting conclusion that any thinking that involves what people ought to do is moral thought. I dunno. Seems to me that there are a lot of behavioral choices in life that aren't moral choices.
Certainly it's easy to see that making an illegal left turn when there are no other cars on the street isn't a moral transgression of huge proportions. On the other end of the scale, killing in war isn't illegal, assuming you follow the rules, but it's easy to build a case that it's immoral.
nippy... you is good, mate. ;)
Why that would be the definition of pragmatism. Are you sure you want to go there? That opens the door for some legislative body saying something like, "You know what - things would run a lot smoother around here without that particular group of people that opposes us. Let's just get rid of them and we'll justify it with an increase in efficiency." That's basically what Hitler did when he sent out the brownshirts and launched his pogroms Just because it works doesn't necessarily mean it's right.
God is good. God is moral. God's Law is good law is moral law. . .And, what's more, bonus time, it works!
Aside from God's revelation there is no such thing as morality - we are left with mere opinion like the foolishness served up here by Undy. . .
-Mark
-Mark
That's a chance you have to take in any democratic society. Take same sex marriage. A bunch of people have decided, so they say, that same sex marriage impedes procreation. Therefore they think we should do away with it. In a sensible society people will disagree with that point of view. I think the jury is out as to whether my home state, CA, is sensible.
:::wink wink:::
so i answered your question earlier and i am wondering how you will justify the taking away of my right to practice the religion of my choice in freedom?
gary... very passionate indeed... i think we- that are affected by this- are quite passionate. i am finding out just how passionate i am right now. thank you for being a part of this conversation.
joe... maaaaaaaate, i think you done hit the nail on the head. equality scares folks- especially when i concerns the glbt community. thanx!
wil... i totally agree, mate! totally! i really appreciate our hetero brothers and sisters who have stood by the glbt community in this. you da' man!
nip... don't you worry, mate. i have this funny feeling things are gonna be a changing VERY soon.
i think maybe the religious right is correct and mark brought up a valid point earlier when he wrote,
"...maybe murder and adultery are different in your scale of balance but they were both on the two tables Moses hauled down from Mt. Sinai, weren't they? If you break one part of the Law, you break it all. . . "
so sin is sin.
all sin is wrong in the eyes of god and you commit murder it is the same as adlutry or homosexuality, right mark?
then i say, "NO GAY MARRIAGE!!!"
but i also say,
"NO MARRIAGE FOR PEOPLE WHO WORSHIP ANOTHER GOD BESIDES MARK'S!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE GRAVEN IMAGES IN THEIR HOMES!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR ANYONE WHO SAYS, 'GODDAMNIT!'"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR THOSE WHO WORK ON SUNDAY!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR ANYONE WHO DOES NOT LOVE & RESPECT THEIR MUM & DAD!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR MURDERERS!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR ADULTERERS!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR THIEVES!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR THOSE WHO LIED ABOUT THEIR NEIGHBOURS!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR THOSE WHO ARE KNOWN TO BE JEALOUS!"
"NO MARRIAGE FOR THE FAT, THE DRINKERS, THE WOMANIZERS, THOSE WHO EAT SHELL-FISH, THOSE WHO WEAR POLYESTER... NO MARRIAGE FOR ANYONE EVER!"
do you see?
by your reasoning- sorry, your "god's" reasoning- no one could marry because all have fallen short and all are sinners! and if ALL sin is equal then you best get that divorce hunny, because you too are a sinner and your sin is no better than mine.
now how's that for dishin' up a good helping of foolishness!
face it mark, if you are gonna play by the bible's rules then it applies to everyone including you.
peace, my friend, peace.
It was hard; that phrase 'Marriage is between one man and ONE woman' must have really grated on the old sensibilities.
rebecca... thank you for the comment and also for the encouragement. we do have to stick together... gay, lesbian, trans and us bisexuals... we get swept under the carpet alot... ehem... many of us put ourselves there tho. thanx again!
I think it never existed. Not at a societal level, anyway -- it could of course exist in individuals' "hearts". But in historical terms, our idea of marrying a partner we choose based on shared affection and interests is morally superior to the wife barter, contractual arrangements, and virtual rape that traditional societies practice(d), including, of course, biblical ones. Only people blinded by religion can't see this, even when the process of selling one's daughter is clearly described in the same book they claim to live by.
Who in their right mind put Prop 8 on the ballots before looking at the laws. My grandfathers have fought for this country so that we can have FREEDOM. And freedom I don't have. I can't marry who I want. . .
Honey, you can marry - your problem is that you want to redefine marriage (the union of a man and a woman) to accomodate your aberrant lifestyle choices.
Undy, I'm not trying to deny marriage to sinners - as you pointed out, there'd be no marriages. I'm saying that same-sex unions are adulterous and do not deserve to be called 'marriages by definition. . .
Could I marry my dog? my son? my refirgerator?
If not, why not? Maybe I could start my own religion or become a spiritualist like you. After all, I love singing the old spirituals too. . .
Luv ya lots Undy!
-Mark
I second Aniko's comment, which is incredibly thoughtful.
Mark, I'm tempted to cite a large number of scientific studies to rebutt your comment about "aberrant lifestyle choices," but science doesn't seem to carry much weight with you.
I couldn't agree more. I posted an article about this, and bitched about how it was based on religion. One guy said it wasn't just religious reasons, but that the reason religious people oppose it, is because it's wrong. Yeah, that was his whole reasoning on pointing out to me that it wasn't based on religion.
I'm straight, I'm married. What I don't understand is who it hurts to let two consenting adults get married if they love one another. It doesn't hurt their neighbor. It doesn't effect the person 5 houses down from getting into Heaven. It doesn't change anything. They can live together, but they can't be married?
That same person who told me it was wrong pointed out that it's more acceptable for children to get married. Yeah, ok, so a couple of 12 year olds can get married but not two consenting adults?
I'm sick of people who won't give a valid reason aside from religion as to why it's supposedly wrong. Every last argument comes back to what they think their religion is telling them.
Selfish fools. Think beyond yourself. You are incapable. You are incapable of understanding correction, or its importance. You are incapable of thinking of the innocent...Children.
Hmm...Could you explain what you're getting at here?
BTW, the Horatio Caine pause at the end of sentence two upped the sententiousness quotient substantially.
And then there is the fact that people spend SO much energy on things that the Bible barely mentions and ignore the things that it goes on and on and on about... which is mentioned most in the Bible for example? Homosexuality, or poverty?
You wanna do what the Bible says, how 'bout you get off your duff and help some of the poorer people in your own community?
BTW I know 2 (adults now) Kids who where raised in same sex relationships and the both turned out to be fine upstanding adults. Their parents were all educated hard working and well respected. I know plenty kids raise in traditional home who didn't turn out so well.
Couldn't have said that better myself, Wil.
lynn... thank you for the comment and support.
terry.... thank you for the input!
mark... wow. okay the dog, your son and the refrigerator remark is ridiculous and you know it. we're talking 2 consenting adults. why must you always get ridiculous when you know you're talking out your arse? so your issue NOW is not with gays getting married but the title of that marriage? btw, i luv you too, mate. i may think you are blinded by religous propaganda, but i still value you as a person and do very much appreciate our ramblings between one another. it sharpens us both. ;)
jim d.... i know this sounds bad coming from a "white guy," but i personally feel the black community has failed themselves in many, many ways. one of those ways would be regarding homosexuality- period. right now, there a good many black folks out there carrying hiv/aids with them and spreading it due to a lack of information and an abundance of erroneous bible-dipped lies. i feel for the black community, but really wish they would stop trying to emulate their white oppressors of the past. some say i am a racist- the truth is, i do not have any white guilt and feel free speak how i want. check out my lyrics call, "colour blind." thanx jim!
melinda & lacey... thank you for the support and input!
ANN M!!!! MUAH! luv you girl and THANK you for commenting. heh-heh. i loved your comment. too funny. ;)
gary... heh-heh ;)
princess... thank you for the support and your wonderful comment. i was thrilled when i read it.
mark-john... first of all... WTF? were smoking a lil 420 when you wrote that comment? secondly, "...but whosoever shall say, thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." matthew 5:22 i believe. maybe you should read your religious book more often. ;)
laura... thank you for the support and input! you are so right!
nippy... i feel you on the mark-john comment. he must've been sipping soome communion wine or smoking some wacky-tobacky! hahaha.
flit... you are right and...
mark-john... there WAY more scriptures dealing with aiding the poor than there are about homosexuality... actually, your deity said NOTHING about homosexuality but he did charge his people to help the poor and not to call people "fools." again, read your freaking holy book!!!
vivian... you are very right in what you say. thank you sooo much for your input and support!
again, mark-john... you are the one who is confused darlin'!
shannon... i'm there with you luv!!!
I am thinking of my children. I raise them to be loving and accepting, not to be bigots. Can you say the same?
If my child came to me and said, "Mom, I'm gay, and this is my girl/boyfriend", my response would be to smile, and say "Pleased to meet you."
My aunt came out of the closet to me before she did to anyone else, and I was whole heartedly supportive of her. It took her months to get up the courage to tell me, because she was scared of my reaction.
As far as I've always been aware, God doesn't teach hate- it's the followers who do that. My God is accepting, and forgiving. Is yours, Mark-John?
Have you ever lied in your life? Even a small little white lie? Ever looked at a woman other than your wife and had impure thoughts? Sex before marriage? Cheated on a test or homework?
Well, welcome to Hell, my friend, because if a single sin is all it takes, the whole world is going there. No one is without sin.
Glad to have been able to chime in! This is a topic I've long felt strongly about.
I can not believe that in his day and age and in this country anyone thinks they have the right to push there beliefs on others !
Let's not be naive Viv, everyone in this thread is trying to push their particular view on this topic. Undy just got done reporting to us that there are people in West Hollywood stopping traffic and turning over cars - where is the outrage for this complete disregard of property and freedom, for this disdain for the electoral process and the rule of law?
Flit:
it drives me nuts when people try to use the Bible to justify their behaviour and judgement of others - the Bible says you don't get to do that..... for starters.
What do you use to justify your behavior? Are you judging those who do use God's Word for a measuring stick? I thought the Bible instructs you not to do this - you're using it to judge the judgers. Would that make you a hypocrite?
Everybody's railing on about their rights. . .
What gives you the right? From whence do rights derive? You have access to marriage just like any other American - as it is defined by law. You have no right to demand the sanctioning of an illegal and immoral union.
PSP:
As far as I've always been aware, God doesn't teach hate- it's the followers who do that. My God is accepting, and forgiving. Is yours, Mark-John?
The land also will be left by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them: and they will accept the punishment of their iniquity; because, even because they rejected my ordinances, and their soul abhorred my statutes. . .
Leviticus 26:43
-Mark
Anyone want to take a crack at this concept in our 'modern and enlightened' day and age?
-Mark
You Judge me from a position of guilt. And, you say nothing of the Little Ones, because you have nothing to say. Now, it is you who must explain yourself.
.."and if anyone gives even a cup of cold Water to one of these Little Ones because he is my disciple, I Tell You the Truth, he will not lose his reward..."
"...and if anyone harms just a hair on the head of one of my Little Ones, I Tell You the Truth, woe unto him...he will lose his reward..."
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Matthew 7:1
I can quote scripture as well. Your Father never intended for us to judge one another, either from hatred or love.
first of all, mark-john, your ridiculous! who in the hell do you think you are?! you don't even KNOW the word of your own god!! and did you even READ my article? there is mention of children in it. try the second damn paragraph! and what about those children- MY children?! should they be ostracized because you and your gaggle of witch-hunters have issues with who i love?!
you know, jesus also said, "...verily i say unto you, inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
so go on- both of you- judge from your seat of self righteous piety! i'm sure your saviour loves you judging him.
how can you stand yourselves?! puffed up chests proudly declaring you infinite wisdoms of god! ha ha ha
i tell you, if your god does exist and his law and grace are true, you my friends will sit in a very uncomfortable place when your master says, "depart from me, for i do not know you."
it is so easy for folks like you two who THINK you have the inside track to judge and point at the speck in others eyes and too blind to see the plank in your own.
you use the word of god as a tool of manipulation to exalt yourself and fill yourself with a vain and haughty spirit! you try to exalt yourself high above those that christ came to save.
he didn't come to save those that defiled the temple and worshiped and prayed in the streets- flaunting their self-perceived holiness- NO, he came for the prostitute, the homosexual, the tax collector- those that came before him with humility- NOT vain judgements and finger pointing.
you both are piss poor examples of christ and his UNCONDITIONAL LOVE!!! both of you couldn't win a soul to christ if you tried! you are offensive and ignorant of the word of god. shame on you both for your self-adorned superiority.
you need to check yourselves!
crawl back to your lord and saviour after a two or three day fast with true humility- throw yourself prostrate on the ground before your god and pray that he open your blinded arrogant eyes.
"I do not Judge from the position of guilt. I Judge from the position that my Father has appointed. I Judge not in "hatred," but in Love. I have now explained myself."
really mark-john? when did god sit down with you and tell you this? just because you tag the words "in love" onto a phrase doesn't make it right. i suppose you don't gossip either, you "share in love" too. yeah, i know all of those manipulative plays on words to condone your SIN. yes, it is a sin to do the job of the holy spirit... HE and only HE is the convictor of men's hearts. not you, my friends, not you.
you wanna talk jesus- let's talk jesus because i know quite a bit about the fellow and i am here to tell you, he would be disgusted at your lame-ass examples!!!
like the infamous queen, boy george, once sang, "you make me run from god... you make me terrified..."
(Bad-Ass: A person who emanates supreme confidence and a frequent disregard for authority.)
(Or perhaps your audience would enjoy this video).
Beautiful words, especially "a decent society is one that does not humiliate its members."
GAY MARRIAGE SPEECH
July, 01 2005
By Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero
[When the Spanish parliament yesterday took its historic vote legalizing both gay marriage and adoption of children by gay couples, Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero -- who put the full prestige of his office and party behind passage of the gay human rights legislation -- made one of the most remarkable speeches in favor of full equality for those with same-sex hearts ever delivered by a head of government anywhere. Here are excerpts from Zapatero's speech -- Doug Ireland]
"We are not legislating, honorable members, for people far away and not known by us. We are enlarging the opportunity for happiness to our neighbors, our co-workers, our friends and, our families: at the same time we are making a more decent society, because a decent society is one that does not humiliate its members.
"In the poem 'The Family,' our [gay] poet Luis Cernuda was sorry because, 'How does man live in denial in vain/by giving rules that prohibit and condemn?' Today, the Spanish society answers to a group of people who, during many years have, been humiliated, whose rights have been ignored, whose dignity has been offended, their identity denied, and their liberty oppressed. Today the Spanish society grants them the respect they deserve, recognizes their rights, restores their dignity, affirms their identity, and restores their liberty.
"It is true that they are only a minority, but their triumph is everyone's triumph. It is also the triumph of those who oppose this law, even though they do not know this yet: because it is the triumph of Liberty. Their victory makes all of us (even those who oppose the law) better people, it makes our society better. Honorable members, There is no damage to marriage or to the concept of family in allowing two people of the same sex to get married. To the contrary, what happens is this class of Spanish citizens get the potential to organize their lives with the rights and privileges of marriage and family. There is no danger to the institution of marriage, but precisely the opposite: this law enhances and respects marriage.
"Today, conscious that some people and institutions are in a profound disagreement with this change in our civil law, I wish to express that, like other reforms to the marriage code that preceded this one, this law will generate no evil, that its only consequence will be the avoiding of senseless suffering of decent human beings. A society that avoids senseless suffering of decent human beings is a better society.
"With the approval of this Bill, our country takes another step in the path of liberty and tolerance that was begun by the democratic change of government. Our children will look at us incredulously if we tell them that many years ago, our mothers had less rights than our fathers, or if we tell them that people had to stay married against their will even though they were unable to share their lives. Today we can offer them a beautiful lesson: every right gained, each access to liberty has been the result of the struggle and sacrifice of many people that deserve our recognition and praise.
"Today we demonstrate with this Bill that societies can better themselves and can cross barriers and create tolerance by putting a stop to the unhappiness and humiliation of some of our citizens. Today, for many of our countrymen, comes the day predicted by Kavafis [the great Greek gay poet] one century ago: 'Later 'twas said of the most perfect society/someone else, made like me/certainly will come out and act freely.'"
You really have lost your grip. Deep breath now - breathe in, breathe out. . . good
It is true - a good and faithful saying - that Christ came and died to save sinners. The trouble is - there's no such thing as sin anymore, no such thing as sinners. . . I mean do you know any?
'you make me run from god'?
Come clean Undy. No one makes Undy do anything he doesn't choose to do. You choose to run judger - you've been running for years. . .
Be of good cheer though. If the Lord is looking for you and I believe he is, He'll have you. You'll wake up some morning breathing out threatenings and slaughter and by evening you'll be preaching His gospel as a chosen instrument. And heaven will rejoice!
Keep kicking against the pricks Undy but you'll only goad yourself. . .
His peace brother, His love, -Mark
"Anyone who thinks 'gay marriage' will destroy the traditional institution of marriage is obviously fearful of what they do not understand.'
Who the hell do you think you are, God?
Nothing you say on the subject after a pompous statement like that is worth a glance, to me.
carla... THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS! i had tear in my eyes up until i read ann's comments and that laughed through the blur of saltiness.
THANK YOU BOTH!
It is true - a good and faithful saying - that Christ came and died to save sinners. The trouble is - there's no such thing as sin anymore, no such thing as sinners. . . I mean do you know any?
and that's in the bible where? yeah, that's what i thought. keep twisting and writhing, mark.
i've told you before, mark, i got a grip on mine- how bout you? we could grip together. ;) heh-heh.
1 Timothy 1:15
If you want to get a grip together, I'll watch.