This is something that bothers me a great deal. It is feared among many hard core Republican supporters that because Obama was elected that morals are down the toilet. Hmmm. Funny My morals are intact. Wow..Apparently theirs are too. Is allow a gay man or woman the right to have their name on a paper that says they can get married really any different from the fact that they are already living together outside of the ability to say that they are legally committed to one another? No.
How is it my business or anyone else's business what goes on in someone else's personal sex life? Oh I get it. The good ole preacher said its bad. He says its bad and forgets that church leaders are arrested all the time for molestation. But we can sweep that under the run and allow churches to pay people off so it doesn't shine a bad light on the church.
This is why I got out of going to church. Not all Christians act or believe this way. I wouldn't dare to say that. There are many good church goers out there. People that believe in what the bible says and not just a place to go to show off that new suit or dress. But for many it is just that and for many churches it is more of a business now that a place to learn about God and how he instructs us to help our fellow man. They slide money in a politicians pocket and ask that he help them keep their morals observed.
The problem with that is this. We are a nation of many different beliefs. From different gods to different beliefs about what God wants of us to beliefs in nothing at all. Who am I to say my beliefs are more important than anyone else's? Who am I to say my morals should be observed but someone else's beliefs should be ignored?
Who am I or you for that matter to tell anyone that they have no right to be with the person they love or to marry them?
Remember the passage in the bible "Let him without sin cast the first stone"? Can you remember who Jesus was standing up for when he said it? No?
He was talking for a woman that was accused of adultery and according to the Law of Moses she was to be stoned for her offense. Here is the actual passage of John 8:2 - 11
2 Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, "Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord."
And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
Think about that passage before you tell others that they are immoral. This passage tells us that Jesus is the only one with the ability to judge us for our sins, because he is the only one that is sin free. The bible is a tool for Christians that they can use to learn how to live their OWN life and not everyone else's. Just food for thought.
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Comments: 84
Have 2 marriage certificates, you start telling a bride she's a 'party' its gonna get ugly.
Mooch
One went so far as to say that it isn't just religion based, it's just wrong. That's all- "it's wrong". The person stated quite clearly that it wasn't religious based, but never went so far as to name what it was based on. The same person said they felt it was more acceptable for two children to get married than two people of the same sex.
Yeah, that left me scratching my head as well.
The bottom line to me, is that if two people love each other, and they are both consenting adults, then they should have the right to have a marriage recognized by the country they live in.
I always recall that verse in the bible when dealing with others, "He that is without sin, cast the first stone." Now, those are words to live by. The lord is the only one with the right to judge. And, I condemn no one.
I believe the individual gets to decide how they will live their life. And no one else.
Everyone should have the right to get married. And, that's that.
If a gay couple finds a pastor and church not against their being a couple or a JP that is well and good but the government cannot establish one, belief or creed over another. Some have no problem with that.
What goes on in someone's bedroom should be a personal private thing. Yes gay people should have as much right and the benefits of marriage as straight couples have. Inheritance rights, the right to make medical decisions for their spouse, and the right to call them spouse, joint tax filing, purchasing a home together and any other benefit of married couples that the government gives to straight married couples.
Personally I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman but that is my belief and not the belief of someone else.
When it comes to churches the state cannot make any law decreeing churches who do not believe in gay marriage to force them to marry a gay couple or even allow them to attend their church because it goes against their belief and what they believe scripturally the bible says. To do so would violate the first amendment of our constitution ; "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." they cannot respect one belief over another or prohibit the free exercise of any churches beliefs over another. That is what people and church administrators are afraid of happening, I have heard people discuss this who go to church.
I do agree with you however that most churches today are run like a business and there are a lot of people sitting in the church using it as more of a social club than a place of true and genuine worship. I too no longer go to any established, organized church group as there is a lot of hypocrisy there. They do seem to over look of sin such as "Adultery" or child porn molestations or fornication of other couples who are not married and just living together and let some members hide behind their skirts most usually it is someone with money.
The irony of the adulterous woman Is; where was the man she was with when caught? He too was an adulterer and subject to the same punishment as she and they did not bring him along. Christ knew that.
I think the churches are afraid the government if they pass into law the right for people who are gay to marry that they will be forced to marry them against their personal beliefs and convictions and allow them to attend their churches and that is the big whole issue with why many oppose it.
Just my observations and personal thoughts and opinions.
One cannot live in sin, unrepented sin, and expect the Blessings of God.
God gave us all 'Free Will'. Free will to choose right or wrong; good or evil; Him or not.
I agree with you almost completely. I do agree with the church having the right to refuse to marry them. As far as I know anyone going to the courthouse to get married would have no trouble and I am all for that. The only thing I would have a problem with is if a church refused to allow them to enter based on their sexuality. If that was the case the church would need to refuse people based on whether they had sex before marriage, been divorced, and an abundence of other things. Personally I dont see why they would want to attend churches that are hypocritical enough to place one "sin" higher than another. As someone else put it.. A sin is a sin is a sin.
However I respect that you believe that and thank you for your thoughts. Have a great day.
You are right. I brought scripture into it. Notice in that scripture thought that Jesus did not say Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more or you can not be forgiven." See Ivan Jesus died on the cross for my sins because I am born into sin and will die as a result of that sin. John 3:16 doesnt say "For God so love only straight people that he gave his only begotten son." It says For God so loved THE WORLD. Not just those that are Christians but those that arent.. It say that WHOSOEVER believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Thats all of us...gay, straight, black, white...everyone. Sin is human and everyone does it from the guy or girl looking at another woman while married to a myriad of other things. In the end it isnt for us to decide that someone else is sinning. That is up to God and his son.
Thanks for responding. I do respect your thoughts even if I dont wholely agree with them.
vs 9 OKJV Knowing this that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless, and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for unholy, and profane, for murderers of fathers and mothers and man-slayers. Vs. 10, for Whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers and liars for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.
If people even so called Christians were truly going to follow the bible, every divorced woman who re-marries is an adulteress and any man who marries a divorced woman is an adulterer.
Galatians 5:14 for all the law is fullfilled in one word, even this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself", vs 15. But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another,, vs 16; I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, 17, for the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things you wish. vs 18; But if your led by the Spirit you are not under the law, vs 19Now the works of the flesh are, evident, which are, adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, vs 20; idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissentions, heresies, vs 21; envy, murder, drunkenness, revelries and the like. Ephesians, 5:1 Therefore children, be followers of God as dear children, vs 2 And walk in love as Christ also loved us and gave Himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling aroma. vs 3. But fornicators, and all uncleanness or covetness shall not be named among you as is fitting for saints.
These are some not all the scriptures churches and religions use why they believe being gay is wrong or a sin. Along with the bible repeatedly shows marriage with a man and a woman every time.
Last here is some Wikopedia information to take as you will on the matter and thoughts of religious orders, reasons and the like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy#Hebrew_references
BTW, On July 20, 2005, Canada became the fourth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage nationwide with the approval of the Civil Marriage Act.
Live and let live.
I am Catholic. I was born into it. I do take the lessons that Jesus taught very seriously. In regard to problems in the Church itself. The whole business aspect is rotten/I have felt many times that all they want is my money. I struggle to pay bills and such as I am on SSI. Yet they still want a certain amount every week and will bill you more at school if you don't participate and tithe.
Then you also have the widespread molestation in my religion it is sickening and as a Catholic I feel powerless to do anything about it. Because my church will hide it away. Then they go and tell others how to conduct themselves. If you are lacking morality how can you preach it?
Karen~
they don't think it's what God intended. It may just be an excuse for
discrimination though.
LET IT BE ALLOW GAYS TO MARRY.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Have 2 marriage certificates, you start telling a bride she's a 'party' its gonna get ugly." What does that mean?
As to your post, I agree with you totally. I am not my neighbors judge and jury (except when forced to be by our "wonderful" justice system) and as long as what they are doing is harming no one, or interfering with the rights of others we do not have the right to push our beliefs onto them.
I do not believe that being gay is simply a "choice" that someone makes, and they can "quit" like a smoker quits cigarettes or an alcoholic quits drinking. I believe it is genetically born into a person, and they come into this world being gay. For those who want to claim it is a sin against God, then why would "God" have created these people "in his image", to be condemned from birth, according to Christian standards?
I just want to point out one other thing. I have had many gay friends, and even a few gay relatives, and the longterm relationships between them and their "mates" have been more solid than many others. I have been married twice, and with the exception of 1 all my siblings and my parents have had multiple marriages. My cousin has been in a monogomous gay "marriage" for longer than my two marriages put together. They are not the only ones either. It is not for society to dictate who our hearts desire, need, want, or love.
The First Amendment explicitly forbids an established church.
They used scare tactics and lies in their advertising against gay marriage, saying, untruthfully that it will be taught in schools, that church's will lose their non-profit status.
Hopefully this will be appealed and put right again.
I have applied this to much more than homosexuality, throughout my lifetime. I further do not understand why, or how people can dictate, how I choose my happiness, particually if it doesnot hurt another. It's time to move past the bigortry and igorance.
Those Gathers who have approached this with an open mind and heart, have given me a Gay woman, who wishes to marry, in time, her partner, hope that some day, we too can be equal. Perhaps one day we will see the end of the rainbow, and I know it will be beautiful!
Well said, Dee!
Amy S - I don't understand all this sin business. Love is love.
You are correct about the stoning story.
But, remember one thing -- Jesus loved everyone the way they were, and he befriended everyone. BUT, he always tried to show them the correct way. He loved the prostitute, but told her she had to change her ways. He did the same for the aldulterer.
In other words, he loved them, and did not "throw the stone", but he did expect them to turn their wicked ways around, and they did change -- for him.
I'm saying he would hang out with all the robbers and thieves, but did not condom what they did. He hung out with them to try to CHANGE THEM.
Donna T. - Via what you said it seems the only thing missing was that the only person able to rightously judge/condemn in the room was Jesus and it was because he was without sin. As for the fourth part of my story I am hoping to put it together this weekend and maybe post it Sunday but it depends if I feel any better since I am on pain pills right now. Its been kinda keeping me down or aggrivated so I am going to wait to post that when I am in a good mood. Thanks for your interest. Its statements like yours that make me want to write and I appreciate yours.
..........I must have misunderstood your profile........
I'm outa here.........
it is simple immature jealousy!
You know nothing of Scripture, because these things are Spiritually Discerned. You libel the Word of the Christ, to suit your own selfish desires; little Understanding that they would cost you your very Life. If you cannot understand the message of the Christ with regard to the prostitute, you are lost; a sheep without a Shepard.
He has called to Judge, those who are more perfected in Him to Judge.
Fool. YES.
You think of yourself, and only of selfishness. Walk the Broad Road, if you wish. That is your choice. You are Free to do so. However, you think nothing of those around you, you think nothing, in your selfishness, of the Children.
.."and if anyone gives even a cup of cold Water to one of these Little Ones because he is my disciple, I Tell You the Truth, he will not lose his reward..."
"...and if anyone harms just a hair on the head of one of my Little Ones, I Tell You the Truth, woe unto him...he will lose his reward..."
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mark you use the bible to justify your hatreds, picking and chosing passages to serve you and what ever you dont like at the time. but it seems you feel your self to be so perfect that you have the right to judge the world for its sins neglecting to worry about your own.
You are the type of person that causes people to walk away from the church and it hypocrites.
You Judge me from a position of guilt. And, you say nothing of the Little Ones, because you have nothing to say. Now, it is you who must explain yourself.
I have no guilt to speak of expecially concerning this subject. I support those that love each other gay or straight and their right to the pursuit of happiness which is supposed to be a right in this country.
I, too, support those who Love one-another. You are simply incapable of understanding.
Do you Truly have no guilt to speak of, concerning this subject?
And to answer your question, No I have no guilt concerning the subject of homosexual people and my belief that they should have every right that any other couple that is married has. Why would I?
Paying it forward.
Let the gays have their equal right to marry and divorce like the rest of us. They can't do it any worse than we have.
You misunderstand and abuse Scripture, and know nothing of the Christ. Re-read His Words about the Prostitute, and pray for Discernment.
I just wanted to say I am finally going through what is now under 7,100 pieces of gather new mail that is in my inbox on here. So with that in mind I have finally come to a piece of mail that was addressed to me in regards this article submission you have created to share with the gather community. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your piece with us here at gather. :o)
And I hope you have a Happy New Year... in 2009 :o)
Please take a look at this article I just wrote, and join me in making a statement and taking a stand by participating in the virtual march by changing your profile picture!
Thanks much!