I am happy that Obama won. I think it shows that Americans showed that they could see past the race issue. The result is not so much a rejection of McCain...although his campaign disillusioned many people...as a forceful and complete repudiation of the Bush administration...and with it the Republican Party.
But locally, Proposition 8 is passing, and that's a shame. It prohibits same sex marriage, and overturns a California Supreme Court ruling that said that a similar measure passed a few years ago was Unconstitutional. This one proposes to change the state Constitution, and, in effect, institutionalize intolerance in the state of California.
I am uplifted by the lack of bias shown toward Obama by many non-black people. The exception, of course is uneducated white men in southern states who voted overwhelmingly for McCain. But they, and the far Religious Right were about the only people who did.
But I am profoundly disappointed by the bias shown toward gays and lesbians. I watched an interview last night with a guy who was celebrating the Prop 8 victory. Aaked why he favored it, he said, "It's for the children. I think as parents we have to decide these things for our kids so that they don't have to do it later."
Say what? How does same sex marriage threaten children? This guy had bought the propaganda package that was repeated all over this state by every fundamentalist preacher and televangelist.
Proposition 8 was losing by 17 points in early polling. And then the Religious Right turned up the heat. A lot of money came in from outside the state, from James Dobson and Pat Robertson and their ilk A massive disinformation campaign was launched, warning voters that if Prop 8 is defeated, schools would be REQUIRED to teach about gay marriage! Schools are not required to teach about marriage at all, and nothing in Prop 8 prohibits teaching about gay marriage. That is but one example of the lies and distortions that influenced the voters. Unfortunately, it worked.
But that is one of the problems with the ballot initiative process. A well-financed disinformation campaign can mislead the voters, resulting in bad laws.
Let's hope this insanity can be overturned.
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Comments: 61
I am confident that, despite the hard work of the Immoral Right, most Americans are compassionate and tolerant, albeit not as worldly as they might be. When they are shown the plight of GLBT citizens, I'm sure most will react with support if not acceptance.
(I'm a bit delusional after the events of yesterday, but hope doesn't feel like a dirty word today)
It's still sad (and equally so for the losses on this same issue in other states) - why must we always look for some subset of humanity to set up as second class citizens?
Exactly. Lies and misinformation coupled with bigotry and ignorance to start with. We were very saddened to see this. My daughter said it best - putting human rights up to a popular vote is never a good idea. I was gladdened that CO turned down the RR's move to redefine a human being at the point of conception. These people just do not know, beyond the rights issues, the legal mess they are unleashing with these laws. I could envision a woman being charged with involuntary manslaughter in the courts for having a miscarriage. It's despicable what these old white male religious leaders are trying to do - they want to take our society back to the Middle Ages and beyond. It sickens me. I hope very much that CA will overturn this in the courts.
"I am uplifted by the lack of bias shown toward Obama by many non-black people. The exception, of course is uneducated white men in southern states who voted overwhelmingly for McCain. But they, and the far Religious Right were about the only people who did." Bert
"I heard a Republican "strategist" on TV this morning lament that the Republican Party is now a Southern White Man's party." Gary
I know I am living smack dab in the middle of both the Bible Belt and the White Republicans territory but one's area of residence is not the exclusive test for one's political associations. Remember...McCain won several Midwestern and Western states also.
I must defend my Southern roots as I remind y'all that the South is not exclusively inhabited by a bunch of inbred, uneducated, bigoted, whip crackin', church goin', bible thumpin' white folks. I know y'alls intent was not a broad sweeping generalization...but you came damn close.
The Republican Party has been bastardized to the effect of losing its status as that of a political party and assuming the agenda of a right wing religious campaign, but the "born agains" and the racially bigoted reside all over this country...not just in the South.
(I also find the association of the religious and the racially bigoted kind of interesting. In many cases, they are one in the same.)
And now... back to my bucket of fried chicken.
The people who are behind "grassroots initiatives" such as Prop 8 in California and Initiative 1 in Arkansas knew McCain wasn't going to win, and didn't really want him to win anyway. They like Palin more than McCain.
So now they've got 4 years to rant about all the evil things Barack and the godless liberals are doing to ruin the country and focus more on getting their people on city councils, school boards, state legislatures, and making sure that every politician in the country has an inbox overflowing with all their email forwards.
Sorry, Elizabeth, but you are very, very wrong on that statement. People in Massachusetts do. People in CT do, too, and gay marriage will soon be law here. I am sorry for you. You cling to your bigotry and hatred that some version of distorted religion provides you, supported by those crazies like Pat Robertson and James Dobson. If your bible is correct, you will some day face your creator and pay for your hatred and self-righteous bigotry against your fellow humans, all of which he created in love, or so your bible says so.
I would suggest you go back and read your bible. Oh, and try the NEW Testament for a change. You know, the teachings of Jesus Christ? I imagine you label yourself as a follower of his, no? I certainly cannot tell by your comment.
Back a few years ago I was going to write something about the notions that lie within the problem of 'gay' marriages but thought that it would only muddy the waters. The basic issue as I saw it then : (1) CIVIL MARRIAGE vs (2) RELIGIOUS MARRIAGE.
I have thought for a long time that there is too much 'yak yak' along the lines of religious idea of sex as seeming to violate religiously specified definitions of marriages and far too little about FRIENDSHIP among peersons. Add in the notion of children and their 'bringing-up' and we get the RELIGIOUS RESPONSES, which one can guess will be -- perhaps for a while -- emotional and religiously-morally based.
I think that there is a need to consider properly the notion of TWO ADULTS living together for very varied purposes, when thinking about any grouping that involves children and 'group safety' too. I mean 'safety in an economic, and social, and cultural sense here. I am of the opinion that we must awaken ourselves as intelligent individuals and groups , to the 'FRIENDSHIP (not SEXUAL)' meaning' of 'CIVIL marriages' . It would be then that the turn toward the CIVIL debates could move forward properly. The issue of the 'sanctity of marriage as defined religiously is too deep to expect no opposition to gay marriages. Change must come gradually.
Such thoughts as economic security, affable living arrangements, old age security, health issues with close and respectable FRIENDS must move to center stage, and let our RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS think about , or whether or not to sanction a RELIGIOUS MARRIAGE while developing proper secular LAW to permit any two persons to join into an enduring FRIENDSHIP with SECULAR agreements to do so and thus to have social security, health care, and home purchasing and use to have LEGAL STANDING with which pairs of persons could build their own 'stepladders to heaven'.
Dick
I think we all need to realize that the institution of marriage exists in TWO Forms - one religious, one legal. It is entirely within a religion's rights not to 'pronounce' a same-sex couple as 'married' in the religious sense. It is NOT within the rights of all protected by the US Constitution that a citizen is denied the legal rights associated with legal marriage simply because they don't meet the religious definition of 'marriage'.
But the reasons to wed are not important to the basis of this topic. In fact, they are or should be beside the point. The central issue is that it is none of any other person's business why two people want or feel like they need to marry.
I think you are letting the judgmental religious faction off too easy. We shouldn't have to wait until they, the morally sanctified, "come around" to minding their own affairs and allowing others to do the same. These holier than thou bigots should learn tolerance and grant respect for the rights of others. After all, aren't Christians taught, instructed, to "judge not so that you be not judged"? (Matthew 7.1-5)
Sorry but that is one f' upped state.
Nice comment from Sheryl and her daughter.
I just reached Nippy's witty line.
None of which are on display here, Elizabeth. It would be interesting to hear you explain how opposing Gay Marriage is a "moral" position.
One of the benefits of this great election is that the limitations of the false prophets on the religious right have been exposed.
You don't need a senile trader in illegal weapons like Pat Robertson, or a pompous Pharisee like James Dobson in order to win the White House.
I quote Thomas Jefferson: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Note how the rights are not ours to remove or infringe upon. They are endowed by our Creator. Finding your lifetime companion falls under that "pursuit of Happiness," and no secular force has the right to take that right for it is inherent to being human.
To argue otherwise dehumanizes people, plain and simple, and to claim God's will to do so maligns our Creator.
How do you know so much about Gay Marriage?
That's a moral position. Disgust and lack of empathy aren't.
Elizabeth, your own take is part of the old story, and it's about to be dumped in the trash and hauled off to the landfill where garbage like that belongs. Do you actually claim to be a Christian? Shame on you! Didn't Jesus say "As you have done this to the least of my children, so you have done to me"? Hate has no place in a Christian vocabulary!
The arguments that were given to support it were that children would have to be taught about homosexuality in school. Well, they still will be. We cannot have schools where children are branded as gay, even on occasion if they are not gay, and beat up or killed. I remember this senseless stuff when I was kid and the small skinny other kids in my classes were bullied and tormented, called gay and compared with women.
None of this ever made any sense to me, but everyone buys into it to some degree, even if they just do not speak up against it. It is socialized intolerance, and it should be fought tooth and nail. It will be, people are starting to get to know people, women, blacks, Muslims, gays enough to stop lumping all groups together in meaningless categories for subhuman treatment, we will learn better.
*Big sigh* to all the ignorance and intolerance in the world.
Michael,
I owe you an apology. You are a "kindred spirit," and a person whose views and opinions I respect greatly. My statement was made in haste without proper thought, although you obviously were not included in the "uneducated white men in southern states " characterization. I think there are many of those "rednecks" in the South, but they are certainly not confined to the South. They are everywhere.
I was going to answer Dick's long post, but then I read Michael's response to it, and I would only be repeating what he said. It simply should not be a concern of government what the gender is of any couple who choose to marry. I will go further, and say that polygamy and polyandry should not be prohibited, as long as the parties are consenting adults.
Elizabeth...please tell us HOW same-sex marriage threatens you. And explain why it is not intolerant and Unconstitutional to withhold civil rights from gay people when the Constitution promises us all "equal protection under the law." Also, explain how laws prohibiting gay marriage are any different from those of 50 years ago that prohibited mixed-race marriage.
This from a guy who waves two, count 'em, TWO Confederate flags in his icon? Please!
It's a major accomplishment that, given our history and even current events, this country was finally able to elect an African-American to the highest office. We have every reason to celebrate it, not ignore it as if it isn't significant.
& the Prop8 in Cali -- BS. if two people love one another, let them marry. Too many people marry b/c it is the 'right' thing to do, as they were raised (such as for me). It doesn't have to be a man and a woman. If two men or two women marry, so be it. As long as they are happy I always say.
I have a vested interest in Proposition 8 being defeated, but my interests lost. The fact is that California chose to write discrimination into the law books on Tuesday. I think that someday that will change. It was a mistake. Gay marriage does not hurt one single human being on the planet. Its time has come. The fact is that putting it on the ballot is a fallacy because rights are not up for a vote. Rights simply are according to the US Constitution.
Obama had money, the GOP lies did not get traction. Money was the deciding factor in proposition 8. Left California 6 years ago. I can't believe it.
It takes time, as we witnessed Tuesday, to undo generations of bigotry.
Happy daze in Nevada.
Gabby, quoting Jack N., "I'm back!"
I read a good piece in the LA Times this morning about Prop. 8. The Times had come out against it in various editorials and op eds. They said the road to civil rights is a bumpy one, and this is a temporary setback. Several years ago, a same-sex marriage ban was passed in California with a 61% majority. That is the one that the California Supreme Court overturned. This one passed with 52%, and is already being challenged in the courts. The article pointed out that many of the supporters of Prop. 8 are older voters, and that younger voters overwhelmingly opposed it.
So time is on our side. Eventually, this WILL get fixed...just not as soon as many of us would like.
This shows how unnatural being gay is. Man is suppose to be a man. And woman a woman. Anything different is just out of place. JMO & God's as well
And how does gay marriage injure YOU?
Unfortunately, a lot of states have passed similar laws. This one will be challenged like the others, and eventually sanity will prevail. It is only a matter of time. The Religious Right is fighting a losing battle on this, just as racists fought a losing battle on mixed-race marriages fifty years ago.
It seems some of those uneducated white southern men must have slipped by the guards at the border of California and infiltrated the masses or maybe people in CA are are just as simple.
The Religious Right has proven that a well-funded disinformation campaign can bamboozle ordinary people who don't make the effort to find the truth. I corrected my statement about uneducated southern men in a later comment and acknwledged that such people are not confined to the south. Michael corrected me on that, and rightly so. I could have corrected the article, but I decided to let it stand, along with my later retraction.
Your point is well taken, and I apologize once again.
I was pleased the bond issue put on the ballet by the Lake County Forest Preserve District to purchase new bonds for acquiring more green-space land in my area passed. This won't increase taxes because the county is paying off previous bonds this year, and the new bonds will just replace the previous bonds. Over the last 15 years or so, the people of Lake County have repeatedly supported referendums to acquire land, and the Lake County FPD has done a good job of acquiring and managing the open land.
A great article, Bert, and my sentiments mirror yours about Obama and Prop 8.
I am very surprised that California voters approved Prop 8, and I am ashamed of them. People have no business denying God-given rights to people whom God has designed differently from the majority. Attitudes like that are what make me know I can never belong to any Christian groups that deny the rights of people who love each other so much they want to make a consecrated lifelong committment to each other. There is something wrong with them if they feel their families and marriages are threatened by other people making vows to each other.
I have never gotten an answer from any of them. They usually just spout the Bible, but that evades my question completely.