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by Beth H.
Member since:
February 19, 2007

Distance or Depth? Writing with Impact Discussion #37

October 08, 2008 09:23 PM EDT
views: 101 | comments: 99
 

Do you find your stories flat, your characters one-dimensional, your plots without depth?  Is your story there but not THERE?  Have you read a novel or watched a movie that you found okay but unremarkable when you thought back on it?

Let's turn our discussion tonight to impact, that oomph factor that should be present in our writing.

It's easy to write about something--to tell the details--but it's so much more difficult to draw a reader into the depths of a tale as if she were experiencing every action and emotion.  But isn't that what we want?  For our readers to cry and laugh and fear along with our lead characters?  We want them to be surprised and tickled.  We want them to escape the world of carpools and divorces and endless business meetings.  Like Calgon does, we want to take them away.

We ensnare readers by allowing them to feel characters' emotions rather than telling about them--this goes back to the show vs. tell discussion. 

We pull readers deeper by giving them someone to root for--a well-developed character with clear goals is necessary here.

Our plots must be both interesting and involving--we need topics and events the reader can get lost in.

Our language must be bold and placed before the reader without apology.  This is not the time to hold back over fear of Aunt Bertha's reaction to our writing or worry over what the boss would think.  Readers want an escape from the ordinary.  Maybe Susie can't cuss in front of Aunt Bertha, but she might long for a character who's not afraid to tell her own Aunt Bertha off and does so in graphic terms.

Readers need more than reports; they need sensory experience.  We enmesh readers by involving their senses over and over and over again.

Readers live in an ordinary world.  (No matter what they do, it's normal to them.)  They want to visit the extraordinary, do and say what they can't in their own lives.  Give them the depth they desire and crave.  Don't be content with surface reporting.  Create a world and compel them to enter.  And then pull them deeper.  Wrap your storyline and weave your characters around the reader so he can't get away.  And won't want to.

We can keep readers at a distance so they never experience the worlds we create.  They can be watchers rather than participants.  But they'll never be satisfied with that.  It's not enough to create a world and people it with shadows.  We need to create doorways that readers can tumble through.  And then we need to make our worlds so compelling that the reader seeks not an exit, but a path deeper into our tale.  So he can experience what the characters do.  So he can touch and hear and feel them.  So he can escape the ordinary and be bigger and bolder and more valuable. . .  At least for a time.  At least while he lives in your story.  At least for the moment.

Readers may enjoy a book as a beach read or for an afternoon's pleasure.  But they may also use it as distraction--while waiting in an emergency room, as a way to hold back fear on a plane ride, as a means of escape from the pain of a debilitating disease.  As writers, let's give them a place of escape.  A diversion.  Hope.  And let's do it with depth and passion.  The readers deserve no less.  Certainly our stories deserve nothing less.

In what other ways can we weave impact and depth into our fiction?

The group No Whine, Just Champagnewill discuss impact and depth during our Live Discussion on Thursday, October 9th at 9:00pm ET. Hope to see you there.

Expand Tags: no whine, writing, writer, write, lesson, fiction, impact, beth h
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Comments: 99

Nancy L. Oct 8, 2008, 9:51pm EDT
I agree that you've got to grab a reader's interest from the get-go, and never let up till they reach the end.

For me, as a reader, it's mostly about the characters; I have to care about who they are. And interesting, believable dialogue is a key ingredient in any book I covet.
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Beaker (just Beaker) Oct 8, 2008, 10:11pm EDT
This is a topic I can really relate to. I worry that my fiction is not as compelling to others as it is to me.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 2:53am EDT
I'll be interested to hear what everyone has to say. See you tonight!
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Wanda H. Oct 9, 2008, 3:18am EDT
This promises to be a great subject. The thing that keeps my interest in the characters. In any work of fiction, the characters have to engage my emotions in some way. Even the bad guys have to be compelling.
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A. F. Stewart Oct 9, 2008, 11:53am EDT
It certainly is difficult to get the right balance and involve your readers.
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Jill Lynn A. Oct 9, 2008, 4:15pm EDT
Too often I've heard writers say they write for themselves. While I understand it's important to entertain oneself to be able to get to the "the end," writers who dismiss their audience will likely end up with a short story or novel that distances the reader rather than capturing them.

I love books that engage me so much I feel like I AM the character. As a writer, that's what I want to achieve. Am looking forward to all of your suggestions on how to do that in tonight's chat.
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Pat S. Oct 9, 2008, 7:47pm EDT
Excellent article Beth, and spot on. I'm so bad at this. Like Jill, I want a book I can become totally immersed in, that makes me tingle, it's so real. I'm not sure I've been able to achieve that in my own work yet. Some characters and experiences are just easier to inhabit than others. Looking forward to people's input on how to pull the reader in, or what you've experienced in a book that has captivated you.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 8:40pm EDT
I've often had problems with my plots, in general. And, my characters even though endearing to me, have problems coming alive on the page sometimes. It's because, mainly, I can't see their motivation, and I struggle with that.
Basically, my plots are flat, and need some serious infusion of showing, and not telling. I tend to drag out sentences, and have trouble editing. It takes many people and critiques for me to finally see how to cut it down, making it flow better.
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James R. Oct 9, 2008, 8:51pm EDT
Beth, it is a challenge to dive deep enough in our writing to truly engage the reader. But that is why it is worth editing your work to remove the ordinary and use words that grab the reader. I'm not of the school that says you need to be in the reader's face; there's lots of room for modulation in tone and style. It begins with a story and characters that you the writer care about. I'll be tied up for a bit, then I'll check in later on.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 9:04pm EDT
What a great article, Beth. It's so important to give the details in depth. Take the reader exactly where you want them to go and place them directly in the story.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:05pm EDT
I usually try to add depth to my works by mood. I know I skimp on action scenes, not playing them for all they're worth, but I prefer my action to hit hard.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:07pm EDT
Pat, can you give examples of the mood setting in your novels?
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:09pm EDT
Hey, gang. What prompted this article was a moment in a waiting room. I was, of course, reading, and I thought how wonderful that an author could take me out of the ordinary in my day and transport me to another world. So much so that I felt the characters' emotions. Felt I was in their town and buildings and families. Rather amazing when we can do that.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 9:09pm EDT
Emotional impact is what I work hardest on because that element doesn't come as naturally to me as dialogue, setting or action. Knowing how much emotion to indicate is my biggest challenge.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 9:11pm EDT
I find myself doing the same thing, Beth. Especially waits at airports. So many iteresting characters to let my mind roam and compose stories about their lives.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:11pm EDT
Distance is a hard concept to learn, especially for those who style themselves after the classics, but I finally figured out what narrative distance means. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn would probably not get published today -- the narrative distance is too great. The story is not told from within the mind of the girl, but from outside looking in. It's more of a documentary than a reader-involving story.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:13pm EDT
I think sometimes we have problems because we hold back. We're afraid(?) to give way to emotion or situations or words that are uncomfortable. In real life, we try to make everyone comfortable and happy. In our stories, we have to make the characters uncomfortable and sometimes miserable. We've got to plumb emotional depths that we normally shy away from.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:17pm EDT
Angela, I'm not sure if this is a good example, but here's one:

He exited the highway, taking the road that led to Forest Highland Subdivision where he’d grown up. He knew every straightaway, every curve. Beyond this hill, the subdivision would be laid out before him in a valley, and he’d be able to catch a glimpse of his mother’s home, a green-roofed single-story dwelling that looked like a child’s Lincoln Log house.

He rounded the hill and slammed on the brakes.

The road ended six feet in front of him.

And the subdivision was gone.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:17pm EDT
Pat, you're so right. I think distance was at one time just part of story creation. But we are different people today. We are more visual stimulated, for one thing, so we often need more to get our attention. We are also nosier as a society, getting into strangers' business quite easily. So that's what we expect from our fiction. But, as you say, if we pattern our writing against some of the classics, we find ourselves writing for an audience which no longer exists.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:18pm EDT
Ah, now I see Pat. In that example you pulled at the reader's heartstrings. Showing that all he had ever known was gone now.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:19pm EDT
That example is a bit too distant, because we are not in the character's mind, but I chose those words on purpose.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:19pm EDT
Pat, the sentence construction and the rhythm you created with those last sentences help set the mood quite well.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:21pm EDT
Beth, even I, who have read everything in sight for as long as I can remember, can no longer become involved in the classics -- I like novels with depth, but I also like a more genre-oriented syle. Twice cursed!
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:23pm EDT
I'm curious--has anyone here ever pulled back from writing something because you just couldn't say it? Did your inner censor slap your hands? And if so, did you ever go back and let 'er rip, put back in what you'd omitted?

I admit that I have. And then I found I'd lost the moment and the oomph. I try to not do that anymore. Write it. If I have to change it later, I can. After all, I'm the only one to see the first draft. Can't shock myself.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:24pm EDT
That excerpt was from my WIP, and one reason it's so hard to write is that everything he knows disappears and things change, but how do you create that constant feeling of never-quite-know-what-is-happening without repeating the same feeling over and over again. The scenes are different, but that's not enough if the feeling is the same. So it's a challenge.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:24pm EDT
I've tried to write a novel once, using some major curse words, and found that I could not!
I'm not big on cussing, and only use mild words.
So, that's the only thing I hold back writing, is foul language.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:27pm EDT
Angela, I used the biggie in my screenplay. I've never said the word. Almost gasped when I typed it. But the character would say it. I don't have to do anything with that screenplay, but it's true to the genre and the characters.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:27pm EDT
Beth, I hold back on violent scenes, mostly because I think they blunt the senses and inure the reader to more subtle nuances that can be even more damaging. Damage to the psyche vs. damage to the body.

I also hold back (or, to be more precise, don't want to go there in the first place) because I hate the modern way of using violence as a way of escalating tension. It seems cheap to me, a cheat.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:29pm EDT
Anyone have ideas for writing compelling scenes? What's worked for you? What still gives you fits?
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:31pm EDT
Oddly enough Pat, I can use violence in my plots, if it's warranted.
In one of my rough draft novels, the one I referred to that I couldn't use curses..
A killer is on the loose, and I can't hold back on what he does, because it's integral to the plot. This fiend is very sick, mentally, and I have to show that throughout.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:33pm EDT
I think a truly compelling scene is where the big action is..
Or in other words, the scenes in one of my WIP's where the family is together and they are showing every one of their differing personalities.
They are showing how much they can tease and taunt each other, but, have that underlying love that shines through.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:33pm EDT
Pat, I've put violent scenes in my medieval novels. But I've varied them--every battle can't be the same. I've tried to show the results of the deeds--that's where a lot of the impact is.

For example, a toddler is trampled by a horse in one story. The rider had no care for the child. But I don't paint the scene of the trampling. I instead show them burying the child and the effect it has on the mother, the villagers, and the protagonist. I think it works well for eliciting emotion in the reader.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:34pm EDT
I thought I would be shy about using curse words and sex in my novels, so when I started writing, I made sure to use plenty of both. But that novel is not one I count among my novels. It's poorly written and poorly plotted, but it did get me going. Interestingly enough, each of my novels has less sex, violence, and graphic language in it than the last. My fourth (or fifth) depending on how one counts, is almost chaste. But it's also the wildest when it comes to ideas.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:34pm EDT
The thing that still gives me fits is the part is always how to edit the beginning of my writings.
The opening is the most difficult thing for me.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:36pm EDT
Angela, those are tough scenes to write. If I shy away from anything now, it's crowd scenes. Too difficult to get the propler nuances when one has to be constantly using speaker tags.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 9:37pm EDT
As for using curse words, I think it depends on the character--and the genre. I can't see a romantic heroine using the "F" word, but a cold-blooded character absolutely would.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
I totally agree Deborah. I could not see any of my heroines, cursing like a sailor!
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 9:40pm EDT
I write thrillers so violence is a necessary evil. I don't go too far with them though as I choose to let the reader use his imagination.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:42pm EDT
I came across a great way of writing compelling scenes. Write the scene as fully and as flowery as you need to. Then go back and write the scene as a poem. Pull out all the important words and visuals. Such as this for a battle scene:

Soldiers on patrol. Jungle dense. Leader shot.
Soldiers kill. Guerillas attack. Soldiers killed.
Bodies slaughtered. Total butchery.

Then restructure the scene based on this poem.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:44pm EDT
Wow, that's very powerful Pat, that may just help me!
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:44pm EDT
Angela, those big scenes with lots of characters can be fun to write, can't they? Very different from an intimate scene between lovers, but you can really accomplish a lot when a family is together. All the love and grievances can come out. And sometimes you only need a few words of dialogue or a simple action to differentiate between characters. Played against the other characters, those differences stand out clearly.
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Jill Lynn A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:50pm EDT
Based on what you all have already said, I think staying tight in a character's point-of-view may be one key to pulling a reader in. The deeper the character point-of-view, the more the reader is pulled in.

And picking up on what you said, Beth, about holding back because in real life we're all about making our surroundings pleasant is a valid point. We might also hold back because we're afraid readers might think we, personally, are the emotional characters. For example, say you've created a back-stabbing character who feels murderous toward school teachers, do you then worry (subconsciously or consciously) that readers might think it is you who feels this murderous rage toward school teachers? Somehow writers have to get past that vulnerable feeling that the character is a reflection of him/herself and magnify the emotions of their characters.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:51pm EDT
Beth, interesting question at the beginning of your article, about have I ever watched a movie and found it okay, but unremarkable when thinking back on it. For me, it's usually the opposite. When I first saw Lone Hero with Lou Diamond Phillips, I thought it was a bit lightweight and cliched. But I woke up the next morning smiling at some of the subtleties I missed while watching it, and now each time I see it, I find more wry humor in it.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:54pm EDT
All the ins and outs of writing can help with creating impact. Sometimes it's description. Sometimes we can do it through dialogue. Or silence.

Sentence construction and rhythm, as Pat showed earlier, can be worked to create a lasting impression. Throwing a new character into the mix and watching how the other characters react is good for creating something new and different. Switching direction, injuring or killing a character, running into a problem can all add oomph.

Making a change of almost any kind will bring life to a scene. Too long a description, a dialogue or monologue gets boring and will be unremembered. A character in one place or thought pattern or dilemma for too long drains the oomph from a story.

And we've touched on distance. If a reader can't identify with at least one character in a story, he can't pretend he's in that story. A character has to pull the reader in. The reader has to need to know what's gonna happen next. If the character holds the reader away, never revealing emotions or dreams or fears, the reader can't engage. And readers today have so many choices for entertainment. Why not assure that they are entertained with your words? Isn't that what we want?
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 9:55pm EDT
In my WIP with the large family..
One of the sons, Alex, got shot in the shoulder, and his personality has always been brash, but, sarcastic. He has deep seated emotions, and in every word and deed, he shows his displeasure with the world.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:57pm EDT
Good advice, Jill. Actors don't seem bothered when they play characters with problems. In fact, they love it! We should probably revel in creating characters with personality flaws.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 9:58pm EDT
In my novels, life is usually the villain. It seems most writers have a hard time making a villain villainly without going over the top, and I'm sure I'd have the same problem. Besides, I've lived enough to know that the true horrors do not come in a human shape. For example, what if you do everything right, yet everything goes wrong. No matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how positive your attitude, you fail. Inexplicably. My problem with most fiction today is that hero-vanquishes-villain-and-everything-is-right-with-the-world scenario. Real life doesn't work that way. (And I wonder why no major agent wanted anything to do with me.)
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 9:59pm EDT
And probably the more we write, the less chance there is for people to read us into our characters. Unless all our stories are about serial killers! And we probably worry more than the readers. I don't know that I've ever wondered about an author because of something they wrote. Not something good that I really liked, that is.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 9:59pm EDT
I agree, Beth--throwing in another character really shakes up a scene. How others react when this person walks into the room can change the rhythm and tone. We all act differently around other people and indicating this change can be quite compelling.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:01pm EDT
I personally think that the hero can vanish the villain and all is right with the world..
With repercussions coming out later.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:01pm EDT
Deborah, you probably know other ways of shaking up a scene. Care to share?
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Jill Lynn A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:03pm EDT
Me either, Beth, and it's a good thing to remember. Readers aren't thinking about you, the writer, they're thinking of your characters.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:05pm EDT
One way authors have of adding impact to a scene is by killing off a character in place of the hero to show how close to danger the hero is. Apparently it works, but unless the hero has been shown to be truly remarkable, it backfires on me. I get to feeling manipulated. The DaVinci Code was like that. Dan Brown killed off everyone the unhero wanted to talk to that it got boring. I just wished the unhero would get killed and put me out of my misery.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:06pm EDT
I think I'm partial to human villains in my fiction. The other kind of bad things--circumstances and such--I have in real life. I've not ever been involved with a murderer or in a kidnapping or with someone who wants to take over the world.

I do use things such as weather and situations to cause trouble, but that's not my major antagonist. And sometimes my bad guys win. This is how I can have a series with my medieval stories :-)
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:09pm EDT
I'm laughing at your misery, Pat. I admit I've felt that way before. Anyone ever read Forever Amber? The same thing over and over and over and over. In trouble, out of trouble several dozen times? And she never learned a thing. Never improved her situation. Made the same stupid mistakes. Poor plotting, in my opinion.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 10:10pm EDT
Well, Beth, shaking up a scene is most important in writing suspense. For one, I consciously foreshadow certain elements early on (even simple visuals). It can be something very simple. For instance, my main character is merely tidying up the bathroom and tosses towels into a hamper. Later, she remembers the hidden clue she's forgotten about after shoving her blood-covered uniform shirt into the same hamper. Elements like this are very important.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:10pm EDT
I think the villain can also win in a psychological way. He can get into the hero/heroine's head, and can cause problems in the relationship later on.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:11pm EDT
You're right, Angela. That is one way of doing it.

I'm just cynical. I've read too much, I think.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:14pm EDT
Deborah -- just make sure you hero doesn't stuff an unread letter into a pocket, go through the whole book trying to solve the mystery, and then at the end remember the letter, which gives the vital clue. AAAAAARRRGGGGHHHHH! I can't believe published writer's are still pulling that crap. Talk about low impact writing!
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 10:15pm EDT
Also, my agent told me editors are really interested in sub-plots, so I came up with a competitor for my heroine. My gal was the only female cop on the force, but now her superior's niece is thrown in the mix.
That will shake things up a lot!
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:17pm EDT
Oooh, I love subplots Deborah. I use them often in my WIP's.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 10:18pm EDT
No, no, it's nothing like that, Pat. It's quite plausable why she's forgotten about the clue.
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James R. Oct 9, 2008, 10:18pm EDT
Deborah, good point. Sub-plots add depth. There can be cross play between the main plot and sub-plots and the overall impact can be greater. However, at some point, the author needs to provide direction and resolution to the sub-plots, lest the reader feel led astray.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 10:20pm EDT
I agree, James. Every little circle needs to be closed by the novel's end. I really don't like novels that leave questions unanswered. To me it's manipulative.
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James R. Oct 9, 2008, 10:21pm EDT
Pat B, I hate it when the writer uses cliched techniques to manipulate the reader or, in the case of a movie, the viewer. In those cases, the writer is asking the reader to settle for the obvious emotion or plot wrinkle.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:23pm EDT
Deborah, good point. Subplots are a great way of adding impact to the story, especially if it adds another layer to the main theme, or if it contrast the main theme.

Speaking of which, contrast is a good way of adding depth. Don't just describe a yellow flower, show it amongst the purple petunias, perhaps. Yellow is brightest next to purple.
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James R. Oct 9, 2008, 10:23pm EDT
Deborah, there are exceptions where the writer creates sub-plots and then offers ambiguous resolutions as part of their style, but a writer needs to be very good to pull this off without really irritating the reader.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:24pm EDT
I think I've got sub-plots in most of my work, but it's more because I want well-rounded characters who have full lives rather than me thinking, "I need a sub-plot here." But writers who can weave several plots that seem unrelated into one satisfying narrative? I tip my hat to them. Tom Clancy does it and does it superbly. I'll follow his stories anywhere.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:25pm EDT
James, you're right. When the emotion or plot wrinkle is too obvious, readers begin to feel manipulated. At least I do. A lot of readers like predictability. How else to explain the appeal of Danielle Steele, James Patterson, and all those other overpaid hacks?

(I told you I was cynical tonight.)
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:27pm EDT
Contrast is great, Pat. And you can apply it to many elements in fiction. Character personalities or emotions, speaking style, behaviors, description. Any element can be contrasted.
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Angela A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:27pm EDT
Well, ladies thanks everyone for the help and the lively discussion. Good night everyone.
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James R. Oct 9, 2008, 10:28pm EDT
Beth, I think you raised a valid point earlier when you suggested the writer needs to go beyond their normal limits and be expressive. When the characters loom larger than life and sear the page, it really grabs the reader. In turn, I can tell I'm getting close to a character as a writer when they drive the plot in directions that I'd never go in my own life.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:29pm EDT
Pat, you've really got me chuckling tonight.

But people do like some sort of predictability. I'm surprised that many like a sameness, however. You can be predictable--happily ever after--without writing the same story again and again.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:30pm EDT
I'm sure I use subplots, but they are all integral to the main plot that I never think of them as sub.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:31pm EDT
Thanks for stopping by, Angela. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:32pm EDT
Nail on the head, James. Who would ever want to read about my life? I want that larger than life hero and the badder than bad villain. I want situations that could never happen to me. I want escapism and roller coasters and breathtaking moments.

At home I want bills paid and good food and friends that are healthy and family without turmoil. Very different needs. I just need to remember to leave home life behind when I'm at the keyboard.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:32pm EDT
Good night, Angela.
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Jill Lynn A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:33pm EDT
I said above to magnify your characters' emotions, but as I think about it more, I think the key is magnifying everything: plot, dialogue, description, etc. An example: In real life people often slam doors when angry. To magnify this scene in a novel, your character might slam the door so hard the doorknob falls off. Character then kicks the doorknob and breaks her toe. She then goes to the emergency room where she discovers the xray technician is her cousin's brother's lover and he is having an affair with a radiologist she went to high school with who... lol

Emotion magnified, scene enhanced, and plot thickened
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James R. Oct 9, 2008, 10:34pm EDT
Pat, you've earned the right to be cynical once in a while. Using some elements of style from one work to the next is okay, but there really needs to be a story to hang it on to. John MacDonald always used a color as part of the title in his Travis McGee books and had lots of continuity among characters. But each story went to new places. The common elements helped anchor the reader and then he go from there and take us in less predictable directions.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:41pm EDT
Jill, you've got it down. And even with the upping of the tension and the action, you've still kept it realistic. That could happen. So, as a writer, follow it to see where it leads.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:46pm EDT
In the question about forgettable movies--I find many, even more than books, that are easily forgettable. I don't need bigger explosions or cool graphic effects, though they can add to a story. I need a story to begin with.

For example, the newest Indian Jones did nothing for me. A few laughs, but nothing special. I need relationships or characters to relate to. Then when something happens, I'm invested. The last Pirates of the Carribbean was the same. The second was nearly as bad. But what made the first so good were the characters and the way they played off one another. Movie two was silly graphics and move three? Well, let's say I've slept through it half a dozen times. Nothing to hold my attention or get me excited.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:48pm EDT
Upping the tension is definitely a way of adding depth and impact, besides being a necessary element of storytelling.

We all know about hooking the reader in the first sentence, the first paragraph, the first page, and most authors can do that. But the secret to a readable book is one hook after another, each more compelling than the last (so that first hook can't be the most incredible on in the story, though it has to be interesting enough to catch a reader). And those hooks up the tension.
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Jill Lynn A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:53pm EDT
Ever see the old movie "Imitation of Life" with Lana Turner? The acting, the plot, etc. is so over-the-top dramatic I can watch it and roll my eyes at how over-dramatic it is, yet I cry my eyes out each and every time at the end.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:54pm EDT
No wonder My Big Fat Greek Wedding was such a success despite the lack of violence, special effects, and car chases. It was all about character. About relationships.

I hate to admit it, but car chases, action scenes, special effects all put me to sleep. Literally. I don't think I've ever seen Ronin all the way through. I like the characters and the story, but I can do without the interminable car chase. Or maybe not. It does put me to sleep, which is a good thing! Violence in books does the same thing.

But great stories always wake me up.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:55pm EDT
I think we sometimes forget tension, Pat. We write and write, thinking we've got drama going on, but we've fallen flat. You're right--inject that tension. And do it at a point before which your readers would get bored.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 10:58pm EDT
Jill, I've never seen that one, though I've seen the Claudette Colbert one. What makes it work is the relationship between the two women.

And relationships is what adds depth to any kind of writing, books or movies.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 10:58pm EDT
Jill, I watched an old pirate movie the other day that had me rolling my eyes. But did I watch it? Yep.

Pat, what about the opening of The Fugitive? That movie had me on the edge of my seat--literally--for an hour. Talk about thrilling. But we had character and action and implausibles and humor and crashes and the kitchen sink. I wouldn't mind being able to create that sort of tension for my readers.
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Jill Lynn A. Oct 9, 2008, 10:59pm EDT
Bed time for me, but thanks for a great article and topic, Beth.
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 11:01pm EDT
Looks as if we're winding down. Thanks for coming and sharing, Jill. Thanks to everyone else, as well.

Pat, as always, delightful to take part in these great discussions.

Good night, all.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 11:02pm EDT
A couple of years ago, I read a novel that had the best first five pages I've ever read. The problem was that I knew what the author was getting at, and so those pages gave the story away for me. So, the moral of the story is, make those first pages great, but make the rest of the book even greater. Otherwise you distance your reader.

(See my strategy here? I say what I want, even if it's not on topic, and then I add a tagline to show how on topic it is even though it wasn't.)
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 11:04pm EDT
We are winding down. But, Beth, you did inadvertantly mention one additional way of adding depth and impact to our writing -- humor.

Thanks for stopping by, Jill. Your icon (and words) always brighten the discussion.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 11:05pm EDT
Great topic, Beth.

Great discussion. Thank you everyone for participating. See you next week!
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Beth H. Oct 9, 2008, 11:06pm EDT
Pat... I'm still laughing at you. Or is that with you? So did you finish reading that book? Wow, to telegraph the story at the beginning like that might not be too smart. I wonder about the editor in a case such as that.
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Deborah J Ledford Oct 9, 2008, 11:12pm EDT
Such an interesting discussion, Beth. Thanks so much for hosting. Thanks again to you, Pat. See you next week.
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Pat Bertram Oct 9, 2008, 11:17pm EDT
Thanks for joining us Deborah! See you next week!
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JustMe ~I'm happy to be~ Oct 9, 2008, 11:34pm EDT
I just got home. I enjoyed reading what everyone had to say. I can only say that for me, a sense of feeling like I am right there, powerful images, draw me right in. I want to feel for the character too - I may love or despise him/her, but I have to FEEL something.
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Wanda H. Oct 10, 2008, 7:01am EDT
I am busy getting ready to go on our honeymoon/vacation. I loved reading this discussion. I like finding ways to make my characters more interesting to the reader, to touch something in the reader to connect them to my character. I am going to give the NoNoWrMo or whatever it is; if I can find the site.

And am I totally out of touch? Who won the DB contest? I think I know but was there an article with that info? Did I miss it or is it not up yet.

I'll be back on Gather on Oct 20th. You all take care. Buh byeeeee.
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Sharon B. Oct 10, 2008, 11:07pm EDT
tha