For any who thinks I'm in "attack" mode, not at all; I'm inquiring, that's what. I've a beautiful niece who is now a pre-med student, and is here ONLY because my sister taught her daughter certain values, so that when her daughter WANTED an abortion, she couldn't do it. Instead, she came to her mother with her "problem" and is so glad she did; shd dotes on, and ADORES her only daughter. HOWEVER, that is one case, and each person's case is unique, and is it right for anyone -- especially THE GOVERNMENT -- to impose its will upon any person????? It would seem a Constitutional violation of that individual's civil rights, or am I mistaken?
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There are some definitions below -- they're optional -- for those who wish to read them.
Let's keep it simple: abortion has definitely become an issue in Election 2008.
Christians have said that abortion is morally wrong, that it is MURDER.
So then, as Christians, point out -- if you would -- where in the Bible it says that the killing of *unborn fetuses/embryos is wrong, is murder? Make the case for this.
If the Bible DOES indeed state that the killing of *unborn fetuses is murder, it would be logical that it would be a crime, since murder is a crime. But now, it is starting to get complicated, and now I'm becoming confused. Back to simplicity . . .
Would you cite the Bible -- chapter and verse -- so that all may reference them, and fully understood the logic behind your position, please. Thank you.
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*Please note:
1. I'm using the terms "fetuses" and "embryos" to indicate -- as I believe you might mean "life", from the moment of conception to delivery of the fetus.
2. I fully understand that the Constitution provides for separation of Church and State, but there is nothing wrong with our discussing this. After all, this is a huge issue in Election 2008.
3. This thread is not just for Christians. Anyone may participate. However, I'm putting the question specifically to Christians, because it is Christians who are most adamant about the Bible saying that about is murder.
4. I apologize for having to set up "approvals" for the thread. However, the displaying of dead fetuses won't be tolerated, and some have and may attempt to do that. That won't be tolerated. Thank you for understanding. I look forward to seeing the scriptures!
________________________________________________________________
Optional
__________________________________________________________________
DEFINITIONS OF ABORTIONS SEEM TO SOMEWHAT VARY:
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Merriam Webster Dictionary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion
Main Entry: abor·tion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈbȯr-shən\ Function: noun Date: 1547
1: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as a: spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation - compare miscarriage b: induced expulsion of a human fetus c: expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy - compare contagious abortion
2: monstrosity
3: arrest of development (as of a part or process) resulting in imperfection ; also : a result of such arrest
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From Answers.com: http://www.answers.com/topic/abortion
Dictionary:
abortion
(ə-bôr'shən) n.
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.
Any of various procedures that result in such termination and expulsion. Also called induced abortion.
The premature expulsion of a nonviable fetus from the uterus; a miscarriage.
Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation.
An aborted organism.
Something malformed or incompletely developed; a monstrosity.
World of the Body: abortion
Abortion means the end of a pregnancy before the fetus can survive. It may be either spontaneous - when it is also known as miscarriage - or induced, when it is a deliberate termination of pregnancy.
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Medical Definition from http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=2091
Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.
A spontaneous abortion is the same as a miscarriage.. The miscarriage of 3 or more consecutive pregnancies is termed habitual abortion.
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Definition Of Abortion: http://family.jrank.org/pages/1/Abortion-Definition-Abortion.html
The classic definition of abortion is "expulsion of the fetus before it is viable."
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Wikipedia definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion
An abortion is the removal or expulsion of a mammalian embryo or fetus from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death. An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced. Abortion as a term most commonly refers to the induced abortion of a human pregnancy, while spontaneous abortions are usually termed a miscarriage. The term abortion may also refer to the aborted embryo or fetus.
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Bible Definition: (I shall enter when it is located; it's a promise.)
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And finally my little personal touch: No, I've never had an abortion. I've never been pregnant either, although my gynecologist JOKINGLY (I repeat, JOKINGLY) said that it would give him great pleasure if I ever decided to get pregnant to be the "active donor". I couldn't believe he really said that to me, but obviously, I did NOT take him up on his offer. I sincerely hope this little anecdote keeps the spirit of things non-hostile, I hope.
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Comments: 41
"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]). (NOTE: For a few hundred years many Christian churches included the Didache or the teaching of the twelve as a part of their list of sacred scripture.)
"In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed" (Tertullian: Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).
In the first couple centuries the Greeks believed that a fetus didn't have a soul until it became animated during "ensoulment", or 40 days after conception for males and 90 days for females.
In the 16th Century, St. Augustine thought early abortion wasn't murder because the fetus didn't yet have a soul.
Several popes didn't think a fetus had a soul until "quickening", when the mother first felt it move.
Even after Rove v. Wade, Southern Bapists thought Catholics already had the abortion issue covered. The Southern Baptist Convention that met in St. Louis in 1971, issued a resolution stating, "we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother." A former head of the Southern Baptist Convention stated, "I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed."
In justifying their decision, the Court searched back through history, even to the ancient Greeks, (as Ron B. just did) and their views on abortion, and the point at which a human becomes a human. Yet, it's worth noting that under ancient Greek law, infanticide was permissible, up until the child became a toddler, and the preferred method of killing babies was to simply leave them by the roadside to die of exposure and wild animal attacks, or toss them off a cliff. Greeks also permitted slavery, but we're not ready to remove the 13th and 14th Amendments... Obviously what was "good" for the Greeks isn't necessarily good for America.
Speaking practically, technically, and medically, from the moment the sperm and ovum join, and form a zygote, it is a unique human life. That is true whether you believe humans have souls, or not. (I do not.) It may not be able to talk or walk or feed itself or breathe on its own, but that is true of some adults, too (we all experience it at some time or another). We all begin our lives as one cell, and end (hopefully) as old people. There isn't even really a great difference between a baby before and after birth -- before birth, they're growing and learning (babies are born recognizing their mother's voice, for instance) and they continue afterward.
At whatever stage it happens, taking an innocent human life is taking an innocent human life. I, personally, don't need any book to tell me that's wrong.
As a legal matter rather than religious. I don't believe the government has any authority either way in the matter.
Abortion is by in large a medical procedure and medical proceduires are done on an individual bases. Some are by choice some by necessity. I think in most instances Abortion is an optional procedure.
I also think people make too big of a deal out of it and it is a matter of people trying to tell others how to run their own lives.
Okay, so what lines are drawn? How to decide?
Separation of church and state?
When life begins?
Just who decides?
What role does the medical profession play -- if any?
What role should Government play?
Roe v. Wade is the law? If it is wrong, why is it the law? Why hasn't it been overturned?
When is abortion acceptable?
No one would certainly argue with spontaneous abortions.
Induced abortions, though: does saving the life of the mother mean anything?
or
What about giving birth to a physically impaired child?
Where does it end?
Where does it begin?
What are the parameters?
and
Just who should really be deciding all of this?
So, as a Christian, I can go to that book and find some very interesting facts for those who want to know.
Look at Psalms 139:13 -17 "For you yourself produced my kidneys; You kept me screened off IN THE BELLY OF MY MOTHER. I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware. My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the lowest parts of the earth. YOUR EYES SAW EVEN THE EMBRYO OF ME, AND IN YOUR BOOK ALL ITS PARTS WERE DOWN IN WRITING, AS REGARDS THE DAYS WHEN THEY WERE FORMED And there was not yet one among them. So, to me how precious your thoughts are! O God, how much does the sum of them amount to!"
Now from this we see that God sees all of the parts of an unborn baby, of an embryo and cares about it. It is a baby, a human and God says to take a life that way is murder.
Another place to go is: Ecclesiastes 11: "Just as you are not aware of what is the way of the spirit in the bones in the belly of her that is pregnant, in like manner you do not know the work of the true God, who does all things."
One more: Exodus 21:22" And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out, but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if A FATAL ACCIDENT SHOULD OCCUR, THEN YOU MUST GIVE SOUL FOR SOUL, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow."
This is a part of the Law code, but the principle still applies if one wants to please God. He has not changed. His principles and his view of life has not changed. A baby is a human life to him whether it is an embryo or born.
Second, yes, Roe is law, but not statutory or Constitutional law. It's case law. (It's also been called a Constitutional *rule*, but can't rightly be called a constitutional law, since it appears nowhere in the Constitution.) Unfortunately, case law is the only completely undemocratic form of law in the USA. You can't vote a Supreme Court justice out of office, can't vote to overturn their decisions, and Congress can only remove them for serious crimes and ethical violations. That requires a trial.
The reason it hasn't been overturned is because since the 1970's, when it was decided, until very recently, the Court was primarily made up of those with more liberal political ideologies. In other words, the Supreme Court has been able to keep Roe in place for 30 years, in the same way segregationists on the Court were able to keep the idea of "separate yet equal" for so long, in opposition to the real nature of the 14th Amendment. As Justice Holmes said, "The Constitution says what the Supreme Court says it says." In effect, that's true. Only the Court can undo a previous decision, and until it does, all other laws in the nation are subject to it.
If the Court were to take a "strict constructionist" view of the Constitutionality of abortion laws, they would have one consideration: Does the Constitution give protection *only* to individuals who have already been born. If it finds that it does, then the decisions should be handled by the states. If it finds that unborn citizens should be protected, then abortion would be unconstitutional.
I would not even TRY to go there.
Thanks, again.
Back to abortion . . .
Having said all that, I personally could never and would never get an abortion. Of course for me, now, that point is moot. But as a younger woman I couldn't have considered it unless it was a rape or incest and then I would have some very heavy thinking to do about it first.
Good article Nee, with some great questions and I hope, some great points of view to be expressed.
WeTheDisabled.com
If there wasn't such a stigma and double standard attached to whether a single mother, pregnant girl, non-celebrity, victim of incest, ad infinitum--getting pregnant--I truly believe there would be a lot less abortions. The fairy tale image of only those who are married and able to care for a child will have one has never been true.
In today's world, children should be taught about sex asap. And young adults should be
taught about birth control, have it available but know any aren't always effective. No sense in letting anyone having to learn the hard way. Knowledge used as armor is always
effective; even if it doesn't keep the learner from taking a chance. At least it would be more of a choice--as long as there wasn't rape involved (and yes, anyone can be a rapist).
I have not denied any comments. I'm just not going to have those photos being displayed -- not on this thread.
"I would never do this."
or
"That is wrong!"
or
"I would never, ever do THAT. YUCK!"
But then, something happens that I did not expect, that makes a "liar" out of me, and I recall what I had said before -- that I would "never" do it. I've learned my lesson to never say never until I have walked in those shoes. Pointing fingers when you've never been in a particular situation yourself is easy, isn't it?
There are two general ways to avoid being a hypocrite. One way is to have the strength of character to stand up for what is right, even if it is somehow not advantageous for yourself. The other way is to refuse to have standards, so you can always take the easiest road. I choose the former.
And no, it is *not* easy to do that. It's hard. That's why so many people either choose the easy road from the beginning, or back out when things become difficult, and abandon the standards they swore they would keep.
Psalms 15 is listed as a 'melody of David' and begins with the David asking a question of God: "O Jehovah, Who will be a guest in your tent? Who will reside in your holy mountain?"
Then David, who knew God well, answered that question: he who is walking faultlessly, practicing righteousness, speaking the truth in his heart. He has not slandered with his tongue, to his companion has done nothing bad, and has not taken up a reproach agianst his intimate acquaintance. Verse four, after saying some things he would do, it says and this is a quote: "He has sworn to what is bad for himself and yet he does not alter."
This means that sometimes, what we need to do can hurt ...but we do it anyway..because it's the right thing to do. Some women may be 'hurt' by having a baby they do not want. But it is the right thing to do because they are not taking the life of someone innocent.
And it bothers me that so many say that in the case of rape...like rapes are the main reason women have abortions. This is a fallacy. Most abortions are used as a form of birth control, not by victims of rape, but by those who chose sex, but don't want to bear the responibility of caring for a baby.
Nearly everything else a person does that brings consequences, the person is made to face those consequences. If the child doesn't do their homework, they get in trouble. If the worker uses the Internet for playing games and not doing their work, they may face being written up or fired. If you speed, you risk a ticket. If you drink too much, you have a headache and maybe vomiting, gamble and lose your home and maybe family too.
But babies are different. Have the sex, but if the baby is inconvenient, then you can choose to get rid of it.
And many women have been molested by a family member....incest...but no baby results. Most of the time, no baby results. But this is thrown out there as a 'reason', like rape, to kill the innocent child.
If the store owner is robbed, you don't put the store owner's son in jail.
If the pedestrian is hit by a speeding car, you don't put the pedestiran's mother in jail.
Why is it that if someone speaks of rape, the rapist is not the one put to death?
The baby is an innocent victim too. It would have a rapist as a father, so why not allow its mother to become a killer? This is not logical. It is also against the Bible in that the Bible speaks of what should happen to one who causes the death of the unborn. It is against the Bible in that God is Love, His Son died for us so that all could live.
I can truthfully say, that I would never commit incest, never would have an abortion nor encourage anyone else to. And I just cannot understand when people feel it is okay and no one else's business that this is a legal practice.
Every other form of child abuse is considered 'everybody's business.
You put real effort and thought into the comment.
For any who may need expounding I wanted to do that, so I've added the Hebrew. I hope you don't mind.
A Psalm
mizmowr (miz-more')
instrumental music; by implication, a poem set to notes -- psalm.
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of David
David (daw-veed')
loving; David, the youngest son of Jesse -- David.
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LORD
Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw')
(the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God -- Jehovah, the Lord.
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who shall abide
guwr (goor)
to turn aside from the road (for a lodging or any other purpose), i.e. sojourn (as a guest); also to shrink, fear (as in a strange place); also to gather for hostility (as afraid)
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in thy tabernacle
'ohel (o'-hel)
a tent (as clearly conspicuous from a distance) -- covering, (dwelling)(place), home, tabernacle, tent.
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who shall dwell
shakan (shaw-kan')
to reside or permanently stay -- abide, continue, (cause to, make to) dwell(-er), have habitation, inhabit, lay, place, (cause to) remain, rest, set (up).
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in thy holy
qodesh (ko'-desh)
a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity -- consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (most) holy (day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.
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hill
har (har)
a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively) -- hill (country), mount(-ain), promotion.
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He that walketh uprightly and worketh righteousness and speaketh the truth in his heart
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He that walketh
halak (haw-lak')
to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively)
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uprightly
tamiym (taw-meem')
without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.
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and worketh
pa`al (paw-al')
to do or make (systematically and habitually), especially to practise -- commit, (evil-) do(-er), make(-r), ordain, work(-er).
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righteousness
tsedeq (tseh'-dek)
the right (natural, moral or legal); also (abstractly) equity or (figuratively) prosperity -- even, (that which is altogether) just(-ice), (un-)right(-eous) (cause, -ly, -ness).
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and speaketh
dabar (daw-bar')
perhaps properly, to arrange; but used figuratively (of words), to speak; rarely (in a destructive sense) to subdue
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the truth
'emeth (eh'-meth)
stability; (figuratively) certainty, truth, trustworthiness -- assured(-ly), establishment, faithful, right, sure, true (-ly, -th), verity.
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in his heart
lebab (lay-bawb')
the heart (as the most interior organ)
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He that backbiteth not with his tongue nor doeth evil to his neighbour nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour
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He that backbiteth
ragal (raw-gal')
to walk along; but only in specifically, applications, to reconnoiter, to be a tale-bearer (i.e. slander)
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not with his tongue
lashown (law-shone')
the tongue (of man or animals), used literally (as the instrument of licking, eating, or speech), and figuratively (speech, an ingot, a fork of flame, a cove of water)
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nor doeth
`asah (aw-saw')
to do or make, in the broadest sense and widest application
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evil
ra` (rah)
bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral)one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).
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to his neighbour
rea` (ray'-ah)
an associate (more or less close) -- brother, companion, fellow, friend, husband, lover, neighbour, (an-)other.
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nor taketh up
nasa' (naw-saw')
to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absol. and rel. (as follows)
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a reproach
cherpah (kher-paw')
contumely, disgrace, the pudenda -- rebuke, reproach(-fully), shame.
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against his neighbour
qarowb (kaw-robe')
near (in place, kindred or time)
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In whose eyes a vile person is contemned but he honoureth them that fear the LORD He that sweareth to his own hurt and changeth not
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In whose eyes
`ayin (ah'-yin)
an eye; by analogy, a fountain (as the eye of the landscape)
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a vile person
ma'ac (maw-as')
to spurn; also (intransitively) to disappear
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is contemned
bazah (baw-zaw')
to disesteem -- despise, disdain, contemn(-ptible), + think to scorn, vile person.
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but he honoureth
kabad (kaw-bad')
to be heavy, i.e. in a bad sense (burdensome, severe, dull) or in a good sense (numerous, rich, honorable); causatively, to make weightybe rich, be (go) sore, stop.
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them that fear
yare' (yaw-ray')
fearing; morally, reverent -- afraid, fear (-ful).
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the LORD
Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw')
(the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God -- Jehovah, the Lord.
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He that sweareth
shaba` (shaw-bah')
propr. to be complete; to seven oneself, i.e. swear (as if by repeating a declaration seven times)
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to his own hurt
ra`a` (raw-ah')
to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and changeth
muwr (moor)
to alter; by implication, to barter, to dispose of -- at all, (ex-)change, remove.
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not
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Thanks much, Shirley!
Just to keep this honest, I shall type that scripture in:
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges (determine).
And if mischief follow, then thou shall give life for life,
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
~~Exodus 21:22-25
I also do not know if the injury (mischief) to which is being referred applies to the wife only,
OR
to both the wife and the child.
(????)
I would need to study more, myself.
But, THIS is an EXCELLENT scripture, Elizabeth. I DO want to look further into it. Thank you very much, as my question is a sincere inquiry.