In the wake of the start of the Russia/Georgia War, reporters have been running to get the straight dope from the Presidential Candidates. McCain has offered the idea that this represents the first international crisis since the end of the Cold War. (What was September 11, 2001, John, a minor bip?). Reporters have bemoaned the fact that Barack Obama is on vacation- posting commentary on the War on his web site, but not holding press conferences.
Question: if Obama were to hop a jet to the State Department or the Pentagon, would they let him in the door? Of course not. Wake up everybody, we have a President. Do not let those poll numbers fool you. George W. Bush is in fact still the White House Occupant, and is going to be there through December. The reality of the situation is that John McCain and Barack Obama are just as powerless in this situation as Mikhail Saakashvilli and the already-whipped Georgian army. If
George W. bush is up to the challenge of dealing with this, Russia may be induced to end its ethnic cleansing. If not, there is no point in considering Georgia a sovereign nation, because it will be one in name only. By January, it will be too late to do anything about what they have started to do.
Keep an eye on the calendar people, George is the President!
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Comments: 35
Georgia Attacked First
John McCain is unfit to be President. Without a question.
Bush is the American leader (puke) and has no power to make any changes in the Russian crackdown and it is in fact Bush that has caused this by trying to place missiles on the Russian border. Poland should be careful in dealing with Bush because all they will get is the usual knife in the back for their efforts.
Russia will defend itself anytime it feels threatened and Russia does not take half measures when it goes to war.
The media is to blame here. Why do they run to the presidential candidates to get their takes? Why do the candidates issue statements in matter of seconds?
John McCain's statements while Bush was playing volleyball seems to have given the Georgians indications they we would back them. Now they know he is not the president.
Source please. I am not saying this is true or false... just would like your source.
Who really knows exactly what happened to start this thing... but we all know this: Russia's reaction was disproportionate to anything Georgia did, and clearly, Russia planned this attack prior to anything happening to send a message.
Oh and Don, I just want you to know that I do not "hate America" and I also care alot about many other and in fact all other people in this country andthis world as you seem to think that me and others of "these people" do not do! That isone of the most ignorant things I have ever heard in my life but considering that you are the source that it came from I am not surprised!! Do you use the words "these people" often Donnie Boy? Is that how you refer to al people that are different than you? Maybe different color, diffeent political beliefs, different religion, different Nationality, etc... That is a mark of hate Donni boy and does prove that you are a lot like GWB in the fact that you say things about what others do or feel when it is really you that are doing or feeling those vicious things! I love my country Don, Have had many friends and family fight for this country Don and also serve it in other ways? Jst because I do not agree with the policies of a jackass failed president or someone like you who is a jackass that follows that failure blindly doesn't mean that I "hate" anything or "do not care" about anything or anyone! In fact it means jut the opposite Don! It means that I stand for what made this country great, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of different opinions and beliefs, etc...
It is ignorant puppets like you that make other people in this world "hate this country" Don! I am not one of those people Don! I will fully support always your right to belief in what you belief n, your freedoms and the many brave men and women that gave you those freedoms Don! Which you are not one of those people that ever fought for that, are you? You see Don, I stand behind the rights of this country that all people are created equal. Even jackasses like you have a right to continually make a fool out of themselves and support a failure because you are so afraid of change and that fear is based on bigotry, your ignorance and your hatred,Don. It has nothing to do with wat I amd many true Patriots like me believe Don! In fct your beliefs are the opposite of what made this country great! Your beliefs are part of what dug the hole that we now find ourselves in and you fears, hatred and ignorance are what lets you continue to believe that is shoud stay this way!
Peace brother and lisen to GWB, he knows what he is talking about when he says things like what he said about how NOT to conduct foreign policy! Doesn't mean that he learned from his failures, it just means that he wants to still be a bullying jackass that wants to continue to foster fear and hatred! Ant wonder you like him so much. You may even be a GWB brain washed clone!!!
Actually, we know quite clearly what happened to start this thing. And it's not the story that McCain is shopping around.
"Russia's reaction was disproportionate to anything Georgia did, and clearly, Russia planned this attack prior to anything happening to send a message." (Don H, above)
Agreed. Russia took advantage of Georgia's boneheaded move in attacking South Ossetia and pummeled Georgia. No big surprise there. I'm sure that Russia had all its forces trained and ready to go and all they needed was a catalyst. And Georgia handed it to them on a silver platter.
But the real question is why were we asleep at the wheel. The separatist areas have been a flashpoint waiting for a match since the split up of the Soviet Union. But rather than working hard to have resolve the situation, the Bush Administration has been adding fuel to the fire. Our actions to support Georgia in NATO and as a democracy had two very important motives, 1) gain favor for their strategic oil resources and pipelines, and 2) stick a finger in the eye of Russia (i.e., "we've got you surrounded...so you better toe the line").
Unfortunately, Putin is as hard nosed a nationalist as Bush. There was no way he was going to flinch, especially since he's been playing Bush for a fool ever since his "looked into his eye" platitude in 2001. Putin knows that we've been bogged down in Iraq (and subsequently, Afghanistan, since we didn't just stay there to finish the job). He knows that we would have nothing we could do to keep Russia from moving into Georgia and doing whatever it wanted to do. The tardy and weak Bush reaction confirmed Putin's contention. And worse, the "tough guy" hand waving and ineffective blustering of McCain shows Putin that he can continue to play the US if McCain gets elected.
You keep saying this like it bolsters your point. On the contrary, it proves that we were asleep at the wheel and apparently couldn't foresee the ramifications of using our support for Georgia as a wedge between us and Russia. Not real smart on our part.
Bush/Cheney and company have fallen into the mistaken belief that "being tough" is all that is needed to get the world to kowtow to us. They derive this errant thinking from Ronald Reagan's apparent success in breaking apart the Soviet Union because of his tough talk and build up in our military. While much credit can be given to Reagan for pushing the USSR over the edge, it would be a mistake to ignore all the other factors that combined with Reagan's rhetoric. It would also be a mistake to compare Bush to Reagan, as Reagan was a great communicator and Bush, well, isn't. Also, this errant thinking suggests that the world has remained static since the 1980s. It has not.
It should also be recognized that Reagan was able to accomplish much without actually having to invade any countries. The situation then was ripe for the Soviet Union to fail, and Reagan took advantage of that to nudge it over the edge. Reagan's credibility was influential.
Flash forward to now. The current Administration has no credibility. Zero. It took advantage of the uniform support for the US, both domestically and internationally, and abused that support by lying his way into an invasion of a sovereign country. [Note I say lied, because the evidence has now reached the threshold to prove the Administration actively misrepresented the realilty in order to rationalize the invasion.] This lack of credibility makes us ineffectual in leading any diplomatic response. We are also so stretched militarily that we could offer no credibly military response.
Putin knows this. Because of his own authoritarianism and the wealth derived from high oil prices, Putin has quite a bit of military and international influence. And he's not afraid to use it. In addition, countries such as China and Iran now have much greater influence than they once did. Some of this is due to changes in who controls the wealth, and some of this is due to our own recent self-destruction of our international influence. Either way, it's not the same world that Reagan had, so the tough guy approach isn't going to work.
Which is why McCain's response to the Georgian mess (as well as his attitude and response on many other issues) is so dangerous. McCain's tough guy hand waving accomplishes nothing...well, actually it accomplishes one thing. It proves to Putin, to Iran, to China, to everyone else that he will be the same blustering but ineffectual politician that Bush has been. They know he can be played.
That's Bush's legacy. And it's McCain's promise.
And it's why this country needs a different, more adult, more intelligent vision for the future.
I don't think we really have great options in Georgia after this. The Russians are going to leave their soldiers in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and this will permit the separatists there to perform ethnic cleansing of any Georgians who live there. From here on, those two enclaves are now officially part of Russia- the very thing that Saakashvilli was trying to prevent.
"Who really knows exactly what happened to start this thing... but we all know this: Russia's reaction was disproportionate to anything Georgia did, and clearly, Russia planned this attack prior to anything happening to send a message..."
Don; By God, LOOK SHARP, Man! Aside from the Fools here, we know EXACTLY what happened.
S. Ossetia IS part of the "State" of Georgia. Georgia attacked FIRST? Would you care to enlighten me as to how a Country can "invade" itself, ones own Country??? They were doing what any Sovereign Country would do, when immigrants attempt to overtake, and then secede, from their Country. The Russian is intent on re-gaining her Empire. Georgia attacked first??? Those here simply love Communists, Don. Look alive. Again, would you care to enlighten me as to how a Country can "attack itself???"
Rubbish.
If Illegal immigrants had taken over, say, California, and began "defending" it with arms, would sending in the U.S. Military be "attacking?" My goodness...
Those backing the Russian in Ossetia are mainly pro-Russian, and don't belong there, if they choose not to assimilate. They've been PLANTS to do just this; assist Moscow in RE-RE-CLAIMING Georgia as "their own." Are you capable of grasping the Military logistics involved in such an action, over THOSE Mountains? This was no “response” to Georgia’s right to defend her Sovereignty; it is planned, and intentional.
Georgia is a separate People, with their own language, and much to the chagrin of the Commie, their own Country. (Stalin (Djugashvili), a Georgian, changed his name to appear more "Russian" when he began designs on the Russian Empire.) Georgia has the right to lay claim to her Democratic Sovereignty; Russia the same. When the Russian decide to move into Georgia, and then attempt to perform a "breakaway" action, Georgia has the RESPONSIBILITY to defend herself.
Period.
I seriously doubt you know exactly what happened. I certainly want to side with Georgia on this, but what were the circumstances? What is the history of South Ossetia? Questions remain, and I'm having trouble finding the truth because there is misinformation from both sides.
“Georgia attacked South Ossetia for their goal of Independence,” is a paltrey, cowardly and sickeningly dishonest way of describing Georgia’s war crimes against the civilian population of South Ossetia. Georgia did not just “attack,” it bombarded, with massive fire power (supplied by the United States), an innocent civilian population, while they slept (at 1:00 a.m.), without warning and without provocation, targeting schools, hospitals, and private homes, killing thousands of men, women, and children indiscriminately. Whether Georgia did so “for the South Ossetians’ goal of independence” is not likely–the only evident purpose of the bombardment was to murder, not to reintegrate. In any case, Georgia never said why it did so, nor why it persisted over the next several days, with tanks and sniper fire and grenade attacks, in the massacre of the helpless civilians of South Ossetia. That said, the wonder is how so many gutless apologists for such horrors, like yourself, find it all so easy to explain–Where do you all come from? Do you live under rocks, in pits and holes and come swarming out at the smell of innocent blood and the cries of butchered children to say it couldn’t be helped? You are worse than the monsters you apologize for.
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Obviously, a lot of people have differing opinions on this.
And, lets face it - much of this involves oil as well. Russia has the power to shut off heat to much of Europe. In fact, they have more power than they have had. Putin was a good president - if you are Russian. Read Petrostate if you are interested in the whole story.
Yes, we DO know. Georgia and S. Ossetia have existed as the same territory since before the Middle Ages; they were annexed and "ABSORBED" by the Russian in 1801, and re-gained their Sovereignty at the gift of Ronald Reagan, and his brilliant stand against the Soviet. ALL Governing bodies and Entities (European and World-Wide) INCLUDING EVERYONES darlings NATO, European Union, Organisation for Security and Co-Operation in Europe, and the United Nations recognise S. Ossetia as part of Georgia. As do ALSO the Ossetians, who know what the Russian is up to. Only Russian "plants" bent on secession disagree.
Don, you are a clear "critical thinker," and you have the ability to use common sense. Communist deception and designs on "Empire," or what you see with your own eyes? I am not your History Prof. All you need do is open your eyes.
That pleased her idiot boss, I suppose , but didn't serve the US interest, which is her job.
Now we have the absurdity of McCain and Bush pretending to be "patriots."
RUBBISH.
Don- Question: "Rhetorical question: would it be ok for Georgia to kill thousands of Russian citizens that happen to live in Georgia territory?"--
Of COURSE not!......unless they are attempting a secession on behalf of the Russian.
Hey... John McCain... shut the hell up... you're NOT the president. And God willing, you never will be.
Angela Merkel gets this and understands Putin as the other Western leaders seem not to. Chancellor Merkel has not changed her position on Georgia since the last NATO summit in Bucharest. At the time, Merkel and Sarkozy prevented NATO from starting the accession process with Georgia through the Membership Action Plan - instead saying Tbilisi could become a member at an unspecified point in the future.
At a press conference held with Saakashvili on Sunday, Merkel said that as a free and independent country, Georgia can decide "with NATO, when and how it will be integrated into NATO and in December we will make a first assessment of the situation." She added, however, that "we are on a clear path to NATO membership." This is nuance. Saakashvilli is despeised by his own people for his authoritarianism and surpression.
On Monday, her spokesman Steg said ' Berlin feels that Georgia needs more reforms and modernization before it can become a NATO member. At the same time, it is clear that Georgia needs international help and aid. The first step would be international observers and later, possibly peacekeeping troops. '
Russia is not opposed to Georgia and Ukraine joining the EU, but NATO it is. G W Bush had promised Gorbachev that if he allowed Germany to re-unite and join NATO , NATO would not extend east. Many broken promises since, plus the US broke its Arms Treaty with Russia. This isn't about "Georgia" but Russia's right to assert its place and be respected.
I think working this out is like shoving a pig through a watering hose. But I think we should at least give a nod to russian self respect, and stop humiliating them. Our attitude is, you shouldn't feel humiliated. Maybe so, but they DO feel humiliated, and you cannot ignore such an important fact!
Saakashvilli made a terrible mistake. I hope that the Bush administration did not encourage it. They claim that they tried to talk him out of it. But I fear it may be too late to "fix" this problem. Russians can be really crappy when they get their nationalism riled up. I expect they stood by and watched while south Ossetian rebels dragged local Georgians in south Ossetia out of their homes and shot them.
As I understand George W Bush sent the USS McFaul, an Aegis radar equipped Guided Missle Destroyer, into the region along with a Coast Guard Cutter and a Command Ship, supposedly loaded with humanitarian supplies.