On May 9th 2008 I wrote an article "Mother Russia, Why Do you Cry?", you might want to read it again.
Consider these points:
1. Vladimir Putin wants to be the next Tsar. He is not interested in bringing back the Soviet Union. When they nationalized (stole) the main oil companies such as Yukos, and placed them under the government ran Gazpron (through several paper company deals), you should know that Tsar Putin owned a considerable share of Gazpron and became an immediate multi-billionaire. Recently, they threw out British Petroleum’s head and for all intents have nationalized BP.
2. Through his former KBG training he is prepared to do whatever necessary in the old ways (bluster, lie, and murder) to get his way. He is indeed in charge. The current president isn't even a figure-head, but truly a puppet.
3. The Soviet Union collapsed because we outspent them and they basically went bankrupt. Oil has changed that. They are again a major power, simply because they are rich, because Putin is rich.
4. Russian tyrants, as with all such ilk, lie consistently.
5. Europe gets 25% of their oil from Russia, so don't count on them for anything.
6. Russia wants to annex (takeover) Belarus, the Ukraine, Georgia, the Stans (Turkistan, etc.), and the Baltics (Lithuania, Latvia, & Estonia, all seaports). They believe it is their divine right.
7. There are 2 classes of people in Russia: those who can spend $500 on a meal and those who can’t afford 1 Kilo (2.2 pounds) of cheese a week.
8. You can not compare Putin to Adolph Hitler, because Hitler actually did seem to care for the German people; however, you can compare him to Robert Mugambe of Zimbabwe, who took everything his people made and put it in a Swiss bank account, and left them to starve. Putin wants one thing Mugambe could never really have, power, international power!
9. Besides physically attacking Georgia, Russia has shut off gas supplies to the Ukraine, and waged a cyber attack on Lithuania, which is already a part of the European Union.
10. The Ukraine and Georgia are fledging democracies that need help and nurturing.
What should we do? Here are a few ideas:
1. First, we help get the Ukraine and Georgia get under the NATO umbrella. They have already applied. I don’t know if it is possible for Belarus, or if they have even applied yet, because of their present government (rather tyrannical itself). This may be difficult because of Europe’s fear of Russia, which is counting on this.
2. Dump Russia from the G-8. They never had any business being there in the first place.
3. Try to get our allies in Europe to stand tall against what is coming. It is a long shot, but we must attempt to get them to see this for what it is, the possible end of their future. It is their ass after all more than ours. Thank God, Sarkozy is President of France (by this I mean he is not the coward that usually holds that office, even though this cease fire deal was a little stupid in part).
4. Threaten to take-over Russian government interests in this country; however, this is tough since most of their interests here are private citizens; such as the company that recently bought Bethlehem Steel. They might put pressure on Putin, or he might just nationalize them.
5. Don’t believe anything Putin says. There is no cease-fire.
6. We must be prepared for all hell could break loose.
7. We must do everything we can, short of war (at least for now) to help all countries concerned. Be aware they have 14,000 nukes to our 5,600, and they will sell them to some idiot who might shoot them at us, or an ally. There are many more in The Ukraine.
Please understand:
Even if you are not politically inclined, you should start paying attention to this. The lives of millions of our people could be at stake.
My wife is from Russia (Kaliningrad) and she and her friends have only recently discovered the extent the Russian government will go to enslave, torture, and kill their own people. Example: the returning soldiers from World War II could not be cared for, so they simply drowned thousands of them in lakes at country “resorts”.
If they will do that to their own people, what would they be prepared to do to other countries? Look at what is happening in Georgia as we watch. I have a friend in Tbilisi whom I can not contact over the internet; hopefully it is just an internet problem. Thank God for satellite TV and the internet.
Some talking heads are already making rumblings of World War III, and they might be spot on for a change. At the very least, we have another group of terrorists to worry about!
Take heed,
The Hammer
Copyright Crickard Publishing 2008. All rights Reserved
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Comments: 27
Bush has set the precedent that international law is meaningless and can be flouted at will. He called it the Bush Doctrine. Well, it's now the Bush/Putin Doctrine.
If your wife truly IS Russian she does not appreciate the comparison between Hitler and Putin. That is historically asinine.
As much as I have problems with many of Bush's decisions and especially his growth of government, I believe he handled this situation admirably. And, he did not violate any international law by sending aid to the Georgians.
There is no question that the soviets simply gave up when they faced an undeniable bankrupt economy. You can not rewrite history.
And yes, it is Russia's goal to divide and conquer Georgia. That's how socialists work in every country.
Russia has; however, succeeded in bringing the former East Bloc nations together in a show of solidarity, and I believe they will die before they go back to the way it was.
I went to a museum outside of Riga and saw first hand the atrocities the Soviets employed against the Baltic peoples. When they got their freedom and tore down many of the Russian monuments, etc. Russia pulled all of their business from Riga and almost destroyed their economy until they got into the European Community.
My wife could indeed educate you and everyone else on the Soviet (Russian) government culture and depravity. Remember it is the leaders, the people are simply suffering as they have for over 90 years. If the revolution hadn't occurred, it is our fervent believe that it would be a thriving democracy by now. The communist gangsters (and that was exactly what they were) took them back to the middle ages and want to keep them there even now.
Also, no one wants to violate their sovereignty, that is their tactic.
And so would the rest of NATO, not just us.
It will be interesting to see what Gorby has to say when he is on Larry King tonight.
"First, we help get the Ukraine and Georgia get under the NATO umbrella."
Actually, this is the last thing we should do, for many reasons. Here's a few:
1) They don't need to be in NATO. There is no actually purpose for them to be in NATO other than to "send a message to the Russians" that we have (1) labeled them as the enemy, and (2) try to scare them into kowtowing to us. Problem is, by pushing this route we actually instigate Russia to be defensive. Just think of how we felt after 9/11. That's how Russia (and Putin) feel based on how they feel they have been minimized in recent years. They want the glory back. They want self-esteem back.
2) Russia was an absolute mess following the breakup of the Soviet Union. Basic infrastructures didn't work and the Russian mafia pretty much took over. Putin stepped in and brought order to the streets, recovered the economy somewhat, got the electrical grid working so there was constant electricity and other amenities, and started to bring back "honor" to the Russian society.
3) South Ossetia and Abkhazia are separatist areas, i.e., they are mostly made up of Russians who didn't really want to be part of Georgia in the first place. They have been trying to go back to Russia since the dissolution of the USSR. So we're not really helping the people of the region by trying to keep them with Georgia. I know no "new" country wants to cede land to the old country, but sometimes it's what the people in those regions want. Such is the case here.
4) This conflict is a prelude to the forthcoming one with Russia and the Ukraine, which is much more important. In essence, Russia took advantage of Georgia's boneheaded move into South Ossetia to make their play. The point is only partially about South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It's mainly about keeping the Ukraine out of NATO. The bottom line is that our support for the Ukraine to become part of NATO is a stick in the eye of Russia. We want it because it builds a "firewall" of sorts between Russia and eastern Europe. But this is ancient world thinking. Russia isn't going to try to retake eastern Europe or even the former Soviet Republics. It simply doesn't want to let "the west" establish itself within striking distance of Moscow, which after all is why Napolean and Hitler failed...they just had too far to go in the cold Russian winter to be successful. With the Ukraine in NATO the "west" would be too close for comfort for Russia. NATO membership would also obligate us to fight on the Ukraine's behalf if there was any aggression with Russia. That means that dumb power plays by Georgia would yank us (and the rest of NATO) into a conflict that doesn't need to happen. Needless to say, the US is already overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan (and elsewhere), as is NATO in several other places.
The real point here is that Putin started laughing at the US when Bush made his "looked into his eyes and saw his soul" statement. Putin knew at that moment that he could play the US. And he did. He's been building his military and securing his power ever since then and was ready when Georgia tried to play their game in the South Ossetia separatist region.
I might remind us that Putin is held in extremely high regard in Russia. Sure, he used authoritarian tactics and played it so he could create and become Prime Minister to secure power while instilling his hand picked co-conspirator as President. But the Russian people were willing to put up with that because he delivered on security, economic infrastructure, and in short, day to day basic services for the people. Gee, I'm not surprised they like him. And we sat idly by distracted by Iraq to even notice what he was doing.
And frankly, there is nothing we can do about it. We are absolutely and positively ineffectual in influencing any event in the world right now thanks to our recent activities. Case in point is John McCain's statement that in the 21st Century "Nations Don’t Invade Other Nations" idiocy. What? All of Europe, Russia, and most of the rest of the world who cares is rolling on the floor laughing because they can't believe he actually said something so clueless after Iraq (and technically, Aftghanistan, though the world did give us a pass on that one). So while the world laughs at us, and Condi Rice takes a slow boat to the area, President Sarkozy of France and others have already been on the ground doing the diplomatic work to ease the tensions. Russia did what it wanted, and we look like grade school kids waving our hands in the air threatening the college guys.
The US would have been much more effective in influencing events if it had been paying attention all along, and if it led with leadership instead of ideology. We've failed in our leadership role, and no amount of hand waving can obfuscate the reality of that fact.
There is no reason for them not to be in NATO. As sovereign enities they have the rights and the responsibilities that go with it.
Where I completely disagree with you is that Putin is held in high regard by the Russian people. He is not universally admired, believe me.
He took the reforms that were being put in place such as allowing private ownership of land and business and has pretty much overturned the whole thing, and worst of all is driving foreign investment out of the country.
The wealth they are accumulating is not being put back into infrastructure and the necessities of life that their people need. His strategy is to make life so unbearable that they will hearken back to the "good old days" of bread lines.
The mafia is simply a business that deals in forbidden merchandise.. I grant you that some of the Russian Mafia are brutal terrorists in their own right. However, thankfully 10% of the duma is elected mafia. Since they are businessmen, they have a lot better idea how it works and most of them want their children to be legit business men. Putin and his gang of thugs have no such idea. They make the worst of the mob look like princes.
Until there is a truly free and independent court system and a clarified and structured business law organization that agrees at every level of government, true reforms will never take place. Under the worst of conditions you can work with the mafia, but not the tyrants and gangsters like Putin.
The best option is the court of world opinion at this time. We can give support where we can and hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.
Even I don't think Putin is Stalin. It would take days to go into that, suffice it to say, Stalin probably hated everyone including himself. He was a devious, incoherent madman, that almost destroyed his own society. I doubt if he even cared about wealth.
The comparing Putin to Stalin was made strictly as a more logical alternative than comparing him to Hitler when it came to the desire to consolidate power within what was once the Russian Empire. Also Hitler did destroy his own society in his effort to increase and preserve his power.
What did the Georgian people do? Russians infiltrated the 2 "breakaway" provinces over the years to cause trouble. they have always been part of Georgia not Russia.
What could 12 million Georgians do to Russia to deserve the beating they are getting now, unless you still blame them for Stalin. That would be like blaming the Germans alive today for WWI & WWII, or the whites in America alive today for slavery. Oh yeah, they are blamed.
I know the Russians hate the Georgians and are only interested in their land. they seem to be trying to start a democracy as are the Ukraine and the Baltics. None of these people were ever part of Russia before the USSR, what makes them have to be now.
If you think someone like Putin would stop at Eastern Europe or Western Europe, think again. We had better find something to do. I don't want my grandchildren fighting another War because this one will have no winners.
I simply said you can not compare either of them to Putin. He is a well-dressed tin-horn dictator with a good education. He is nothing like Hitler or Stalin. He is far worse.
http://friendsofdanh.gather.com.
Our goal is to help you further your exposure and to support other gather members.
I don't know everything about the situation there, other than it is one that has the potential to affect our world in a negative way, and concerns us all.
It seems that Russia is doing more than "making a point" with Georgia, and the world. They say they are responding to an attack, but does a response have to be this deadly? Isn't this overkill? They have taken control of many of the cities, killing, looting civilians and destroying the country. One only needs look back at the corrupt history of Russia, the way they plunder, loot, torture, enslave, kill their neighbors and occupy the countries that fall under their savagery. Will Georgia fall next to this predator?
I see and hear this being referred to as a like event of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. I can find no parallel of comparison between these two events and the circumstances that led us there.
Iraq was warned for a year of the impending action, as was most of the rest of the world; who was in agreement. They were, repeatedly requested to correct the causes.
Iraq was in violation of more than fourteen U.N. Security Council, and Human Right violations, and given every opportunity to come in compliance.
Putin sat next to Bush in Beijing and said nothing of the invasion of Georgia.
Iraq was under a terrible dictator, his own people wanted him out, they celebrated when he fell, hugged Americans, and tore down Saddam's statue.
Again and again Saddam was given the opportunity to comply, but ignored the U.N. Officials request. Some of the violations warnings he was made aware of, and ordered to come into compliance with are:
Saddam Hussein had used Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) to slaughter hundreds of thousands of his own people and his neighbors.
He would not disclose and eliminate the nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. He thwarted the efforts of Weapons Inspectors who were sent to locate and destroy the weapons.
Iraqi defectors led agencies to large stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons in Iraq. After the attack, weapons were not found, even though it was known Iraq had used them in the past. Who's to say if they may, someday be discovered there. It was not a far stretch, at that time, given the evidence, to believe Saddam was in possession of WMD's. The U.S. was at risk, not only from WMD's, but from terrorists.
He harbored members of AlQaida in Iraq, who were known to be responsible for attacks, including the 911 attack on the U.S.
He was supporting terrorism.
He would not release prisoners, or Kuwaiti property that he had seized during the Gulf War, or account for the missing and dead Kuwaitis.
This is not a complete list. It goes on and on. Of course, any attack on any nation is reprehensible; however, I am unable to find any moral equivalance between the attack on Georgia, and the attack on Iraq after a review of the background and history of events.
It is disappointing, for me, to hear statements that lessen, or take anything away from what is happening to Georgia right now, by using Iraq, when the U.S. condemns it. It should not even be in the equasion.
You presented a case for why Iraq is not Georgia very well! I would only add that Georgia is a democracy. Although, I do not agree with the Bush strategy of forcing "democracy" down the throats of nations, societies, and cultures at the point of a gun, I do think we (the US) have a responsibility to support growing democracies who have chosen that form of government. OOOPS! Does that make me sound like an "ugly American?"
Unless I am sorely mistaken, I think I heard on the news this evening that Poland has consented to "house" a proposed strategic missle defense site. That would not be good timing even though this proposal has been in the works for sometime. This would be another poke in the eye of the "Great Russian Bear." Any one hear anything about this?
Georgia Attacked First
John McCain is unfit to be President. Without a question.
You've got to be kidding. You're quoting a Russian writing in the Washington Post. Do you really believe the American Media who hates everything American, wouldn't point this out if it were true?
I get updates from France 24 TV (and most of you know what I think of the French) sometimes hourly, and they do report on things other than the French medalists at the Olympics (rather a short list). If any of this were true, they would be on top it like fleas on a dirty dog.
South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Georgia whether there are Russians living there or not. There are 600,000 Russians living in Latvia, does that make it part of Russia? What this Russian reporter, who has bosses to answer to, or death awaiting her, is spewing is the party line, nothing more.
Don't get me wrong, Georgia just like any other country, has many skeletons in its closet, but you have to weed through all of the BS and at least try to look for the truth.
Please don't let your apparent hatred for Bush and this country get in the way of it, too many lives are at stake.
I read the article you recommended. I totally agree with the author's position. It was only at the outset of the conflict that the press stated flatly that Georgia did, in fact, attack Ossetia (sp) first. From that point on, Russia has been the "bad guy." I continue to be suspect as Saashkavili seems to have free reign on the American public media. He seems to have appeared on CNN every hour on the hour. He was even available to rebut an interview with Gorbachev almost at the moment the interview had concluded. I cannot imagine how this man can continue to lobby the American public while in the middle of a war zone. Curious.
I recognize that Georgia took the first step in this on-going conflict but coverage has turned to the severity of the Russian response. Is Russia's response proportionate to the initial provocation? When every country is talking about a cease-fire and a pull back, Russian troops continue to move deep into Georgia toward it's capitol. Part of the Russian demand with regard to a cease fire includes the agreement that Russian troops be allowed to maintain a "peace keeping" force on Georgian soil. This seems to support proponents of the theory that Russia has a broader agenda with respect to that region of the world.
From reading the article "Georgia Attacked First," you conclude that John McCain is unfit to be President???
A big "5" on Bush pushing democracy down throats.
I, too, have heard Poland has agreed to house 10 missile defense interceptors, and the U.S. is also dealing with the Czech Republic to house radar components. Now, "The Bear", has taken aim on those countries. The plot thickens.
I, also, found some amusement in the article David referenced where a Russian journalist speaks of how journalists should not take sides, just present the facts, yet her own article lacked objectivity, and showed a high degree of bias on her part.
I am not a conservative, I have no great admiration for Bush, and I have not watched Fox news for seven years.
I'm sorry you could not have given my comment an ounce of consideration for the points I expressed, I'm sorry you found the need to label it, "baloney," and call me names.
You see, I don't understand doing that. Just out of respect for another's opinion, even if I disagree with it. You immediately jumped to all those conclusions about me, when you know nothing about me.
Sam, there are many parts of International Law, many of which would argue whether or not the U.S. was in violation on Iraq. I am not an anarchist, just curious about the entire
story. Articles 51, and 678 cite some of the many. Iraq had been out of compliance with UNSC for 13 years, by this time, allowing an dividual/collateral attack, being a nation "hostile" to the U.S., a breach of reliable WMD information, an imminent threat, considering 911, and seeing all other means of enforcement exhausted. These are only a minute few UNSC articles to consider.
Saddam's son was caught on wire tap saying he knew where the WMD's were. Bush had a responsiblity to be aggressive in protecting this country and 300 million Americans.
You might want to check this article from 2007 about where the oil money went:
http://suzieqq.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/where-did-the-iraq-oil-money-go/
"s a result, the letter from the Armed Services Committee says, “we believe that it has been overwhelmingly U.S. taxpayer money that has funded Iraq reconstruction over the last five years, despite Iraq earning billions of dollars in oil revenue over that time period that have ended up in non-Iraqi banks.”
I don't intend to come across as being radical, I'm not. There are more important issues . I do get a twinge when I hear comparisons made between the invasion of Georgia and Iraq. There just are none.
You continue to rebut arguments against you with facts, references, and innate intelligence.
KUDOS! to you for putting slanders, slimers, and slammers in their place. I have long advocated for civil discourse on Gather. There simply is no place on Gather for "name calling." This is particulary true of a group "owned" by David K.
And KUDOS to your for advocating for civil discourse, and good luck!!!
Perhaps you should start a club with that as the theme. I will be your first member.
I am reasonably new to Gather and I do enjoy a forum of individual expression.
I have noticed that many commentors respond to an article by immediately declaring the author, or other commentors, lobotomized or mentally catonic ... sometimes worse ...simply because they do not agree with that opinion. That is sad because the intent of the article is laid to waste along with a lost opportunity for possible broadening of knowledge on the subject. Now it is merely a contest to see who can spew out the most insults, or call out the most unflattering names.
At least Gather gave us an option, with a click on the keyboard...to move on. :)