Scientists are not gods, nor infallible authorities. Scientists do not create truth, or even discover it. They merely make suppositions, observations, experiments, hypotheses. The bits of reality, how things work, what exists, discovered by science is often found to be incomplete or even untrue by further investigation. It is a process, but too often casually interpreted as set definitions, real reality.
In regard to the specific case of the photon, the photon is itself. It has the properties of what it is, not what we think it to be. We call it a wave or a particle, when it is more like a wavicle, behaving like both or either. The confusion is not in the observed activity of the photon, but in our limited ways of seeing, and the limited ideas we work with to make the limited definitions that fit within our frame.
We can not be absolutely positive in the existence of anything, at least not in the way that we define and relate to its existence, including ourselves. There is way too much clutter, static, confusion, in the general human structure of belief and "knowledge" to claim truth in this regard.
As to the existence of "god": My take is that there is everything, there is what is called "universe" or even "multiverse" -- all that is, which is both eternal (outside of time) and infinite, ever in flux, ever manifesting in a variety of dimensional possibilities, in a diversity of forms. Some of these "forms" exist on a "spiritual" plane, others on "material" planes, yet fluidly between dimensions. Some of us who have manifested in human form on the planet we call Earth have interactions with spiritual beings. Often we gather around some spiritual being(s) in a community of worship. But this is about our limited human interpretations.
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The result was actual physical evidence, much like a photograph, that proved through the observation of 100% of those participating, and any who wish to see the results nowadays, that quantum particles act differently when observed.
Granted, science can be flawed, and every measurement is technically subjective, as it must pass through the filter of the human mind, but without scientific method, how can we as a species attempt to discover truth?
How can we advance technologically without the boundaries of science? We know that we must utilize technology, or face certain extinction, as we cannot compete physically with most life forms here on earth.
So the question to me, is really pragmatic. We can sit searching enlightenment all we want, but unfortunately, the opportunity to do so is based on a quality of life that is predicated by our technological achievements.
If we were about to be eaten by a being that considers us a tasty snack, my guess is that metaphysics would be the farthest thing from our mind. We might wish then, that we had not written off the contribution of scientific method, and the technological advances derived from this frame of thought, that allow us to exist here on earth.
You make many useful points. I am not denying the scientific/technological reality, just giving a caveat to those who fall under its spell. In fact, I was just thinking about the idea that there are, of course, vastly many "scientific" applications that are the way things are done, the way we have learned to create what we need and want from the materials available, the way progress is made.
My argument to quantum physics is to some extent more about the people who use these studies to suggest metaphysical certainties far beyond the province of these experiments.
However, your "problem of multiple independent observation" is not a problem if we take into account that all these independent observers observed with human equipment and minds. Observance is one thing; interpretation another.
If I were about to be eaten, which I suppose I regularly am by flu bugs and such, I do the pragmatic thing at hand. That is not so much science as a combination of logic, instinct and creative thought. If you are suggesting that weapons predicated on science keep us safer, including vaccines and such, I am sure they do to a great extent, but are often double-edged swords.
Thank you for a most engaging, challenging, and thought provoking exchange.
Peace,
libramoon
I may be misunderstanding and misinterpreting your perspective and motive for what you are writing, but my objective is not to put forward an idea that "science" is the "way to go" in answering all questions. It is just "a way". Unfortunately, it is "THE WAY" with all too many people today.
The example given by Aglie is a great one. Yes it is true and proven that observation has an effect on the behavior of particles. But what does this mean? If these experiments had not been done, and if a spiritualist had stated this, most people would dismiss it as scientifically impossible, and meaningless. And yet we know it is true. The same can be said for many if not most of the discoveries of physics of the last century. Altogether, these scientific truths are presenting us with a picture of the universe that appears to by much more in line with that presented by mystics and spiritualists.
Like Donald, and others I believe we are on the threshold of finding much more commonality between science and metaphysics than we ever imagined.
My concern, and it may have something to do with a "specialness," in that I feel this is part of a message I want to send out into the market of conversation and ideas, is just what you say, Donald: Science is just a way; not the way. I have been involved in metaphysical study for a great many years, and recently am starting to see new ways of understanding and experiencing experiences. Well, not new, but new to me. Having gained these insights through hard and treacherous journeys, I find I want to tell whoever will listen and add to their insights as well. It is wonderful that you people are responding here so intently and wisely. I know I still have a lot to learn.
FIRST -- THANK YOU!!
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THE TRUTH OF DIVINITIES ARRIVING
GOD is our creating Spirit
Imparting wonder
GOD an "I AM" And so EACH OF US FINITES will become
Appearing thus, to us
We are our Universe's created finite spirits
Designed by our mysterious, though ever-present,
and UNIVERSAL "I AM"
When, with no intention to sunder
Or blunder
We grasp our task, there will come a new age
WE finites are given-gifts to our planet -- to know
To build. To enjoy. To inquire. To absorb our Earth
To come to UNDERSTAND with our varied senses and minds
To assist inquiry and action
EARTH was given us -- to know and to alter
-- Scientifically and Intuitively
As time moves on into the wondrous infinite
Via consciousness grown -- also given us
For knowledge and understandings sakes
To create TOO. To emulate. To join
together ALLNESS -- into a CREATING ONENESS
To learn that Everything is related to EVERYTHING
Thus we come to know UNITY, together
Think of Christ and Buddha nd Moses and Muhammed
and the many other WORLD prophets
as spiritual, and linked
and DIVINE manifestations.
Here to help and guide us
I think of them as bretheren who
were DIVINE, human incarnations
And have become 'present' in us
Because the "I AM" cause, willed it so!
Via MEMORY and LEARNING
To help us all to bring vision
to ourselves and blessed others
as we shape all of ourselves
Through the long reaches of TIMES within SPACES
WE strive for enlightenment as tomorrows' unfold their secrets
Tomorrows will come and thus help grow our coming needed
conscious Idealisms and beauties.
WE can create worthy Renaissances
To grow evermore. Like the beauties of sunrises and a sunsets
So? Are our human destinies to be DIVINE as well?
Can we emulate our "I AM" and our cherished PROPHETS?
GOD's Justice must be the mark of such thoroughgoing creativity
As has been made to EXIST
So -- YES!
We await our latent mystic intrusions and spells
They can entwine, entangle, embrace each of us --
Divinely consume us -- in thoughts and ecstacies
Our prophets learned that basic truth about Beingness
So can -- and will -- WE
WE, collectively, are the "Great Chain of Being' -- as we 'become'
ENDLESSLY
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Dick