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by Jan C.
Member since:
October 12, 2007

How do you edit your work? -- Writing Discussion 25 by Jan Coad

July 16, 2008 05:34 PM EDT (Updated: July 18, 2008 05:36 PM EDT)
views: 90 | comments: 132
                                                      How do you edit your own work?

I tend to be a little on the reserved side so I just attended my first writer's conference. It was a fabulous one for me to start at. There were only a total of 40 people in attendance (including the 4 speakers). I hope to share much of the info here at No Whine, Just Champagne over the next few weeks.

At the tenth annual Writing It Real Conference in Port Townsend, Washington (June 26-30, 2008) I gained many gems that I hope will improve my writing.

For this first discussion I wanted to share some editing information that I learned.
My first few drafts of any MS tend to have many issues. Because I'm fairly new at writing and don't have anything published I'm often timid about sharing my work. I think so fast that I get mixed up getting the words down on the page. I have found by reading my work out loud I can usually catch most of the problems with tense. But I am so close to the work that I often don't see when it is falling short of telling the story I want told.

This information is from Sheila Benders book Writing and Publishing Personal Essays.
Sheila calls this a Three-Step Response: when ever developing drafts and revisions, she suggests asking a trusted reader to respond to your work in three separate stages. This helps ensure that you receive the kind of feedback that may facilitate your writing.

From Sheila's Book (ISBN 1-893067-05-X):

STEP ONE: Velcro Words
"After you read a draft, your listeners first repeat the words and phrases that stuck with them. They do not tell you why the words stuck or even say, "I liked ...." They merely repeat your words back as closely as they remember them. It will feel wonderful to you. All of us write to be heard, and there is no better way to affirm that you've been heard than to hear your own words from someone else's mouth. Not telling why the words stuck keeps the focus on your writing."

STEP TWO: Feelings
"To warm up for this step, listeners can list as many emotions as they can think of. The more emotions they list, the more versatile and articulate they will become in responding to writing: gentle, harsh, lost, discovered, nostalgic, thankful, in mourning, grief-stricken, at odds, panicked, bored, surprised, thankful, sentimental, fearful, glib, successful, defeated, frustrated, warm, joyful, happy, well-grounded, disappointed..."
After they feel confident that they can name many feelings, listeners might hear your draft again and then name feelings elicited by the subject and subtext they hear in your draft.
Listener and reader responses help all writers keep from spinning their wheels and meandering from their real subjects. If listeners feel ripped off, if they feel batted around in different directions, the words are causing confusion, that theft, that assault. If the emotional journeys do not serve the author's real subject, the author must change the words. It's a self-correcting exercise.

STEP THREE: Curiosity
Finally, listeners tell the writer what they want to know more about and where in the writing they want to know it. These specifics indicate where more writing is required. When others want to know more, writers get insight into their real subject and where and how they may have skirted it.
Receiving response in these three steps will open up possibilities for your revisions, leaving you not only empowered to continue developing a piece of writing but eager to do so.

For those interested, The Writing It Real Conference Faculty:
Sheila Bender - is an award winning and widely published poet, author and writing facilitator. She publishes Writing It Real, an online magazine for those who write from personal experience, whatever the genre. A past contributing editor to Writer's Digest Magazine, she has written eight popular instructional books on writing from personal experience, including Writing Personal Poetry: Creating Poems from Life Experience, Keeping a Journal You Love, and her most recent Writing and Publishing Personal Essays (Silver Threads, San Diego). She has also written instructional prompts and writing tips for LifeJournal for Writers software (Chronicles Software). Her newest instructional book, Perfect Phrases for College Application Essays is forthcoming in March from McGraw-Hill
Meg Files - is the author of Meridian 144, a novel; Home Is the Hunter, a collection of stories; Write from Life, a book about using personal experience and taking risks in writing; The Love Hunter and Other Poems; and A Hollow, Muscular Organ, a forthcoming novella/story collection. She is the editor of Lasting: Poems on Aging. Her poems and stories have appeared in many publications, including Fiction and Crazyhorse. Her awards include a Bread Loaf fellowship. She was the James Thurber Writer-in-Residence at Ohio State University. She teaches creative writing in Tucson
Jack Heffron - is editorial director of Clerisy Press, and has been a professional editor for more than 18 years. He has edited three national bestsellers and a number of award-winning books, garnering prizes such as the James Beard Award (cooking), CEO Reads' All-Time Top 100 (business), and the Agatha Award (women's mystery). He is the author of three books for writers The Writer's Idea Book, The Writer's Guide to Places, and The Writer's Idea Workshop. A founding editor of Story magazine, he is a two-time winner of the National Magazine Award for Fiction and editor for the critically acclaimed Best Writing on Writing series. He has published short stories in many literary journals and twice been nominated for the Pushcart Prize. His nonfiction, which has appeared in numerous publications from the Oxford American to ESPN Magazine to the Utne Reader, has won an SPJ award for sportswriting and been noted in Best American Travel Writing. He is currently a contributing editor to Cincinnati magazine and is developing a series for The History Channel.
Susan Rich - is the award winning author of two collections of poems: Cures Include Travel and The Cartographer's: Tongue Poems of the World; the latter which won the PEN USA Award for Poetry and the Peace Corps Writers Award. A recipient of a Fulbright Fellowship to South Africa, an Artist Trust Fellowship and GAP grant; Rich's international awards include a residency at the Tyrone Guthrie Center in Ireland, a Ruben Rose Award from Israel, and poet-in-residence at the University of Sarajevo. Her poetry and prose appears in journals and anthologies such as the Alaska Quarterly Review, Best Essays of the Northwest, New England Review, and Quarterly West.. She is an editor at Floating Bridge Press and active board member at Whit Press


So my question to you all is how do you edit your work? Do you read your work aloud? Do you have others read and give you feedback? Do you hire editors? How do you feel about the Three-Step Process of editing?

The group No Whine, Just Champagne will be discussing this article during our Live Chat on Thursday, July 17 at 9:00pm ET. Hope to see you there!

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Comments: 132

Jan C. Jul 16, 2008, 5:36pm EDT
I look forward to our discussion tomorrow evening!
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Richard Frisbie Jul 16, 2008, 6:01pm EDT
Sounds as if it was a productive workshop.
To edit I read and reread. Reading aloud is important. Most of what I write is actually meant to be heard, so the rhythm of the words is critical. I'm most successful with my editing when I put an article away for a day or two, and then review it for corrections and clarifications. Sometimes I do this several times, once or twice it was several times over the course of a year! Whatever it takes. But I don't believe it is ever a final draft, just the one I'm using now.
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 16, 2008, 6:08pm EDT
Having someone else read my work to me is most beneficial. When I read it myself, I read what I think I wrote, and I read with the inflection I know I wanted. When someone else reads to me, that person reads what I wrote on the page.

Like Richard, I like to put my work aside and come back with a fresh eye/ear. I do it multiple times with novel work, and usually three or more times with shorter work.

I still write most things long hand first. They get a second look as I type, and a third when I print and read. For me, everything looks more 'real' on paper, and I am more likely to catch errors.

I admit that I don't always read backwards, and that I should.
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Pat Bertram Jul 16, 2008, 7:32pm EDT
Should be an interesting discussion, Jan. See you tomorrow night!
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Sandy (Site Psychic™) Knauer Jul 16, 2008, 8:04pm EDT
Jan, if you will you edit and include this in The Writing Tips group, I will feature it there.
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Marta Stephens Jul 16, 2008, 8:24pm EDT
Interesting discussion Jan. I was ready to join in and realized it's only Wednesday. Uhg! That's how things have been here lately. Anyway, interestingly enough, I posted a blog on MB4 this morning about first drafts and the need to edit. Great minds think alike, huh? If you get a chance, give it a read. I'll do my best to join the group tomorrow!!
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j - Frugal Mom - r. Jul 16, 2008, 10:32pm EDT
It must have been a great experience to be at a writer's conference. I just wrote my first novel, and I seem to be taking the same approach to the editing as I have done in my previous journalism work. I am in the midst of my first edit of the novel, and I think I will have to do a few more, before I will let a friend read it. As to getting it published, I don't even know where to start, so I will leave this to the future.
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Vivian A. Jul 16, 2008, 10:36pm EDT
Sounds like a good discussion Jan, I'm looking forward to hearing others strategies.
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libramoon C. Jul 17, 2008, 1:59am EDT
I wait a while, until the work is no longer fresh in my mind. Then, I read it as if it is not mine, and go through it word by word, and as a whole, until it sounds right to my inner ear.
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Shelbia C. Jul 17, 2008, 2:04am EDT
I either put it aside and come back to it later when my mind has had a chance to clear, or I throw it at my best friend and we actively discuss it.
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A. F. Stewart Jul 17, 2008, 10:27am EDT
I find reading the work out loud helps. I convert my files to PDF and use the Read Out Loud function on the Adobe Reader. It helps with spelling, punctuation and overall structure.
And of course I ruthlessly shred everything that sucks.
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Sharon B. Jul 17, 2008, 11:14am EDT
great article
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Wanda H. Jul 17, 2008, 11:14am EDT
I write the first draft without doing much editing at all, except for spelling. For longer works I like to set it aside for a little while, to let it rest. For shorter works, I do the editing right away. If it's a poem I read it aloud, count syllables, making sure I rhyme, if is supposed to do so. If it's a short story there is usually a word limit so I check that too.

For my WIP I read aloud, finding tense issues. I always seem to have problems there first. Then I look for my weak qualifiers and possible contractions. It seems I can write first drafts with contractions. Everything I write sounds like Data wrote it. lol

Since I haven't ever done a final draft, as in the piece is finished, for a longer work I don't know how I will do that. For shorter ones, I just sorta know I am done. LOL
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Angela A. Jul 17, 2008, 11:24am EDT
I print out my work, read it, edit it, then I publish it.
I put it out there for everyone to see. I request feedback on how I can improve and edit some more. I know there is always room for improvement. Especially when I get stuck. Feedback helps enormously.
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Sheila Deeth Jul 17, 2008, 12:46pm EDT
I love the information you've given us here Jan. Please may I pass it on to our writers' group when we meet on Sunday?

I tend to edit my own work as I write, rereading yesterday's writing to get me into place for today, and cleaning it up as I go. Then I get someone else to read, or put it on gather, and see what kind of comments it gets before I decide if it's worth working on further.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 12:55pm EDT
You are all welcome to share any of the information. I highly recommend Sheila's books. Jack Heffron's are great too - he has one on writing prompts.

He gave us a top ten for editing - like Dave letterman's top tens ... I'll try to find those and post them too!
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terri molina Jul 17, 2008, 1:20pm EDT
So my question to you all is how do you edit your work? Do you read your work aloud? Do you have others read and give you feedback? Do you hire editors? How do you feel about the Three-Step Process of editing?


I usually miss these discussions because of the west coast time difference, so I'm going to jump in now. =)

As for editing my work...I tend to edit as I write--which isn't really a good idea because it can keep you from moving on in the story. However, it kinda works for me. When I return to my work the following day I'll reread and make the necessary changes to structure, dialogue, pacing. Most times it gives me a clearer idea of where to go next in the book.
I used to read my books aloud to my cousin because, although she's not an avid reader, she picks up on a lot of things and will constantly ask questions about why did the character do this or that. And, if I have to explain it to her, it means I didn't do my job as a writer. I also look for reactions like signs of boredom, confusion, laughter (where laughter should be). So, reading aloud to her always helped with those first drafts. Unfortunately I don't have her anymore because she's in Texas and I'm in Arizona. :-/
So, now I have critique partners (well, I had them before, but now I have a few more). When I hand off to them I give them a list of what I want to know from them.
*1* Did the story flow?
*2* Were the characters sympathetic?
*3* Was there any confusion or inconsistencies (even minor ones, like the hero had brown eyes in one scene and blue in another---although I've never done that. hah But I have had them say something in one scene than contradict themself in another)
*4* And most important to me: At what point did you want to put the book down?
I ask that because, your job as a writer is to keep them turning the pages.
I don't agree or disagree with the 3-Step Process you were given, however, imo, it's not all that helpful. For repeated words or phrases I use a "Cliche Cleaner" program....I'll also highlight repeated words (toward is my crutch)
For emotions, if I'm the one reading, then my character's emotions are going to be heard in my voice, so the person I'm reading to isn't going to be able to tell if I showed it well or if I acted it well.
Curiosity....that one I can agree with. However, when rewriting, you have to be careful you aren't explaining too much and loading the work down with unnecessary backstory. Sometimes mannerisms or lifestyle can tell a lot about your characters and who they are. You don't want to hold the reader's hand or insult their intelligence. If you're writing for the adult population, you should assume they've been there, done that.

Okay..sorry...I rambled. Must be too much coffee. ;-)

Hope to see you all later.

Looking for a little Romance? You can find the sizzle here
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Vivian A. Jul 17, 2008, 9:00pm EDT
Howdy. Are we here yet?
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:01pm EDT
Terri raises some good points. Editing isn't just about prettying up the prose and correcting grammar. It's about seeing the work as a whole: the flow, the rhythm, the consistencies and inconsistencies, the way the reader sees the character.

Oftentimes during the writing, the story takes unexpected turns, so you have to go back and look for questions that you raised in the beginning and make sure they were addressed later.

If you're doing the editing on your own, you have to look for places where the characters do things they wouldn't according to the way you've portrayed them. For example, if they are supposed to be smart and evoking sympathy in the reader, do they ever act unnecessarily cruel or stupid? Does the story show many facets of the characters?

You also have to check dialogue: does it further characterization? Does it further the story? Is it in conflict? Is it the cleverest thing the character can say? Too much back and forthing -- dialogue that goes nowhere and does nothing -- is boring.

And second think your backstory and exposition. Often we put it in there at the beginning so that we know what's going on, but it becomes redundant when the characters end up showing what we've told.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:02pm EDT
Hello Vivian. I'm pretty much on the same page as Terri. To me it is very important to have others reading and critiquing my work.
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:02pm EDT
Hi, Vivian. I'm here. In a lecturing mood, for some reason.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 9:03pm EDT
My editing is all wrapped up in the process of creating the novel. I'm sure there's probably an easier way to go about it, but this is what works for me:
Step 1: I write a loose outline of the novel and then throw the novel at the pages, not worrying about editing, I just want to get the story on paper.
Step 2: A complete re-write and re-typing of the entire novel. During this step I check the scenes and try to give the reader the information I want to give them in the most interesting way I can. I use the first draft as a guide for this re-write.
Step 3: This is the most creative and challenging step in my process. In this step I focus on characterization, back story/sub plot and descriptive passages. I am on this step now with my WIP: Echoes from the Abyss. This is usually not a complete re-typing or re-writing. I also check the connections in the plot and this step pretty much gives the novel it's heart and soul.
Step 4: I read through the novel and check the adjectives, passive verbs, sentence structure, throw out empty dialogue and look at the novel as an integrated whole.
Step 5: My reader reads the novel. She is not a writer, but is an avid reader of mystery and detective fiction. She points out anything that's confusing or draggy.
Step 6: I file a copyright on the novel and send it for line editing.
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:03pm EDT
Hi, Deborah. But some of us don't know anyone who will take the time to do the work that Sheila Bender suggests, so we're left to figure it out on our own. One writer suggests marking the printout of the manuscript with different colored pencils, red for every time emotion is indicated, blue for sense details, green for metaphors and other strong images, and yellow for telling details. That way you can see at a glance where you might need to do some work.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:04pm EDT
Also important is to know what didn't work. It's great to hear "I really like this", however this isn't helpful criticism. This is what I ask first--what didn't you like or where was I too vague?
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:07pm EDT
Nancy, I think it's important to have "professional readers" look at the manuscript as well. However I don't give this to these people until close to the final draft.
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Vivian A. Jul 17, 2008, 9:07pm EDT
With my limited experience I'm still in the beginning stages of rereading my work and having a few others have a go at it. I do find that while writing, things often evolve from where you thought they were going to go and at this point an outline of the book is useful. That way I can review if it makes any sense at all or still just rambling rubbish.

Yes, I read portions out loud, but often I can hear them well enough in my mind. Writing is like watching a movie that I create.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:10pm EDT
Hi Terri - I'm on the West Coast too so I usually can't get away during dinner time myself! But I warned the family that tonight Mom would be at the computer!

I am going to post Jack Heffron's Top Ten Revision Rules for writing that Rox...

10. Revision is necessary - writer must be willing to revise. It makes the difference in good vs. acceptional. He also said you aren't revising yet unless you cut something that hurts!

9. Revision is Creative - real difference is when you take raw stuff and turn it into something great. You write the first draft to get to the second. And don't let revision stall.

8. Finish the First Draft - then explore it and see it for all its possibilities... Then you have the ability to say here's what I've got but this is what it could be. It has to compel readers to turn the pages.

7. Assess Your Drafts - where are the false notes? where does it make a false turn?
It can shift as we go along.

6. Evaluate & Revise for Shape & Structure
This is the step most writers are unwilling to take. Look at the flaws in your structure and make it new again. Maybe you need to take your ending and make it your beginning and then work backwards... Some editors/agents or contest judges take an arial view and use highlighter pens. They look for plot and make it one color, something else and make it another color, ... and then highlight those things to see how often you are talking about each.

5. Clear Out What Doesn't Belong - but just seeing what doesn't belong is hard. Once it's been there for a while it seems like it should be there. Making that change will hurt! In early or 1st drafts there will be alot that doesn't belong! Because you are discovering the story as you go along. 99% of the time back story or flashbacks aren't needed! Find a way of cutting what's not needed. Expository Dialogue can give readers too many clues in painfully obvious ways. You must cut anything that pops the reader out of the story. You need them to stay with you.

4. Fix The Leaks - to make riveting page turners sustain narative tension by squeezing it = making sure it's there. It's what you don't say
No melodrama/cliche/telling too much = Show don't tell!
Once you violate subtext you lose the flavor! He tells his students to think of story telling as getting arrested. Don't say anything you don't absolutely have to say!

3. Controlling the Reader's Expectations - Reader/Writer Relationship
They want to be involved - like a dance!
How do you get them to turn a certain way? If the editor says, "I didn't like the ending. the problem is the clues you left - you didn't lead them to the right place..."
"The Voice" needs to bring the reader through. You the writer needs to plant the clues to carry the reader to the correct ending.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:10pm EDT
Hi All!! I got carried away in the one entry!
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:12pm EDT
Great outline Nancy - my problem is, I don't know when I'm at the point that it's ready for line editing!
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:12pm EDT
One thing I look for when editing is themes or symbols I didn't know I had, and then exploit them, which can give the work a feeling of cohesiveness. For example: mountains almost always show up in my books. They are part of the background of my life, and hence the background of my characters' lives. Once I realized I was doing that, I made sure to use them in various ways, such as a way for the character to tell directions. In one book I needed secret places, so I situated them around mountains.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:14pm EDT
Here are Jack Heffron's last two:
2. Change Begets Change:
When you are getting feedback you need to be willing to adapt to changes...
When you move/change you have to look at the entire work.
Trying to put an octopus to bed = always a tentacle hanging out. So change will reverberate throughout the entire piece.

And #1. Take Some Time - Put it Away
But mark your calendar to get it back out at a certain date. THen you have fresh eyes. Otherwise, 2 yrs later you have a file cabinet of many items percolating. Too long and you've changed as a person and sometimes you can't get back to it!
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:15pm EDT
Here is my process. I don't even start a new novel unless I have the first 5 chapters (at least) figured out, the 3-5 leading characters nailed down (extensive bios), 2-3 arcs and usually an idea as to how the piece will end. Then I begin working on the first chapter and go on from there.

I keep a chapter breakdown (a one paragraph outline of what happens in each chapter) so that I can see at a glance where I need to switch to a different character's POV. This way my timeline is always on my mind while I'm composing the chapters. My novels all take place over 5-6 days so this really keeps me on track.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 9:15pm EDT
I agree, Jan. I think I could re-work a novel forever. My editor is really good at pointing out where more info needs to go, or where some of the writing should be deleted. She's a great help. Deborah, I've not heard of professional readers. I know my editor reads the entire novel first and then offers suggestions. I'd like to know more about professional readers...
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:18pm EDT
I like that symbolism of mountains Pat! I have used various places from my youth in my fiction. Once thing I've enjoyed is researching the places that I've long left and seeing how they have changed over time.

One novel took place in a small town where I lived in high school (20+ yrs. ago). My Father had taken a job at the 50 bed hospital and it didn't end up having enough volume for him to remain full-time.

As I looked up the town on the internet. Now they have a new Medical Center...

But I still struggle with what needs to stay in and what needs to be cut from my work!!
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:20pm EDT
Nancy - do you find it painful when the editor suggests cutting things from your work? I would love to have someone read for me and suggest where I need to add and where I need to delete.

What was your process for finding this editor. Was it through an agent when you were published? Or does one find an editor prior to this?
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:22pm EDT
Thanks for hosting this fascinating topic Jan. I agree completely with Hefron's tips. Every day I write I do my best to compose a complete chapter. Thrillers are fast paced so rarely run over 10 pages. 2,000 words for me is a great day. Needless to say this isn't always the case. Sometimes it takes an entire work day to write a 4 page chapter.

I write my first draft, print out a hardcopy, read the pages with pen in hand making as many notes as I can, type in those edits, print out again, read, revise, print, then read the pages out loud. Only until I've revised at least 5 times do I feel the chapter is ready to send to my initial First Reader. I rely on her to tell me "this is crap" or yes, this works. She's a talented writer but most importantly, the most well-read person I know.

Then I move on to the next chapter. Once the entire manuscript is composed I print out the entire manuscript read beginning to end (pen in hand again) making notes throughout.
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:22pm EDT
Jan, the older the work is, the easier it is to see with fresh eyes. And the easier it is to cut. I had one work that lay fallow for two years while I tried to sell it, then about a year ago I looked at it again and whacked out about 25,000 words. It was actually fun.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 9:24pm EDT
Jan, no it really wasn't painful to make those deletions, the editor, and her name is Mary Linn Roby, explains why she makes the changes, she really taught me a lot. During the writing of the novel however, I do find that when I go back over it and find that I have paragraphs (sometimes pages) of writing that does not move the plot forwards and realize they've got to be taken out. Usually I really like the writing, but since I'm not writing for myself I know they need to be deleted. It is very hard. But it's worth it. I imagine that I'm reading someone else's book and if I start thinking: "Let's get to the plot, what is all this stuff, I want to know what's going to happen, etc.." then I know it needs to go. Painful. It's during the second complete rewrite that I get rid of a a lot of what I wrote in the first draft and it's blood, sweat and tears all the way.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:24pm EDT
Nancy, I consider a professional reader one who reads voraciously--all genres, fiction and non-fiction. Someone unbiased who can tell me "Yes, I'd pay $24.95 for this" or "Hey, I've already read something like this before".
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:27pm EDT
It is also SO important to keep all versions of your drafts. When you're about to do a complete re-write (perhaps you're changing a name or location), save that one and start a new Master Fille.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:28pm EDT
I find that I can't edit on the computer screen - I have to print out a hard copy with pen in hand.
I think I must have the learning disabilities of my children. I find that I'm making strange spelling mistakes that spell check doesn't catch. Stupid things too like tail for tale, etc. So they really don't make sense, but when I read them I'm not seeing that.

Is there some software program that is better for writers? Terri Molina mentioned a "Cliche Cleaner" Program above? And I've seen others mention that they preferr Works over Word ... etc.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:31pm EDT
Deborah how did you find the person you use as a professional writer?

I'm still trying to find a writing group that I would like. I've seen a few in the Tacoma, WA area that don't impress me. I know there are quite a few in Seattle... Do any of you use writing groups to trade and critique each others work?
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:31pm EDT
sorry Deborah, that was professional reader!
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:34pm EDT
I'm going to try something new - there is a senior citizen center walking distance from our house. I'm going to volunteer to host a writing group. It will be to encourage journaling or writing to their grandchildren, etc. I thougth I might share some of my short stories too and then have members try Sheila Bender's method of listening and giving feedback!

I'll let you know how that progresses...
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:39pm EDT
Jan, that sounds like an excellent idea! I bet they'd love it!
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:41pm EDT
I'll bet they would love to have you read stories to them. Especially the ones who can't read for themselves any more.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:41pm EDT
Pat, do you use a paid editor for your books? I've looked on line and seen many, but don't know how to find a decent reputable one.

Do most find theirs via an agent?
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:43pm EDT
Jan, I like Bender's ideas of feedback, but I don't know anyone who would sit still for that.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:45pm EDT
I'm going to give some non-fiction a try too. I'm putting together a collection of personal essay's on my children. I have one with ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome and the older child has Tourette's and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder as well as learning disabilities... So we have an interesting household with "Melt-Downs" etc...

I'm going to title it "Paving My Way Into Heaven"
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:46pm EDT
Jan, I'm moderator for the Scottsdale Writers Critique Group here in AZ. We meet two times a month at the local library. This is a fantastic group full of published writers and newbies who are just starting out. Each writer brings 6 pages of the WIP and they read their work outl oud to the group who makes notes and suggestions. At the end of the session the writer gets the copies back and they make revisions based on the suggestions. The group runs anywhere from 6-20 members so you can really see what didn't work.

From this group I've been able to gleen 3 very proficient writers and we started our own intense writing group that meets seperately. I also have a couple fabulous writers who are looking at my final draft through a Yahoo group.

I'd check your local library to see if there is an exhisting group. The senior citizen center is also a great idea. They have lots of time on their hands and would be grateful, I'm sure.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:46pm EDT
Pat, I don't have anyone either ... that's why I'm looking for a writing group locally!

Have we lost everyone else?
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 9:46pm EDT
Before I start writing the novel while I'm working on a loose outline I keep a few things in mind. With my genre there needs to be the triangle, which is the MC does not want to get involved but circumstances force her to take the case. That in itself helps to create the story and also the theme. In my WIP my theme is helping out a friend almost gets her killed. There is another theme running through out the novel and that is my MC's reluctance to use violence. It almost gets her killed and she's forced to face the guilt she's been carrying around for something she did in her past. This is her arc. My MC's philosophies and views on life are also very important in the PI genre. I usually work intensely on that in the 3rd step of my process because by then I know the scenes so well I can hold the entire novel in my head and just listen to my MC's take on it all.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:51pm EDT
Thanks Deborah, I'll have to check out my library ... I was also told there is a place in Seattle with a bulletin board - Something House (it escapes me right now). But they list writing groups, etc.

I love the PI genre Nancy - my fiction WiP is a coroner who has a number of mysterious deaths and she begins to wonder if one of her Assistant Coroners is the murderer... It's finally taking on a life of its own (about 40,000 words right now)
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 9:54pm EDT
I edit short works immediately after writing them. If I've got time, I come back the next day or so and always find something I can tighten or enliven. The longer stuff? I may edit a bit as I work--if something bugs me, it bugs me until I fix it. Or, I'll begin a new day's work by reading back a few pages to get into the groove. If there's a glaring problem, I'll fix it then. But most of my regular editing is done after I've finished the entire ms.

I don't read for one problem area at a time--I go for anything I find. Sometimes, however, I'll search for pet words that I know need to be changed. Or I'll look for all the places I've left asterisks, places I've meant to get back to to fill in the blanks.

I tried reading aloud to cassette a couple times. Didn't work for me. If the work was short, I might be able to do it, but I felt rather odd reading aloud. And I've never tried reading backwards, though I've also heard that's a marvelous tool for finding punctuation and spelling errors.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 9:56pm EDT
I like that Jan. It sounds like a good story. Here is the url for a list of the winners of the Private Eye Writer's of America/ St. Martin's press first novel contest. Some really good books there and most of them are available from the library. http://www.thrillingdetective.com/trivia/triv251.html
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 9:57pm EDT
Jan, sounds like an interesting book of essays.

Nancy, you're so organized! I suppose I should do an outline, but somehow I never get around to it. I know where I am going, and have several scenes prepared. I even know the ending. Just don't have anything written out. Though I'm considering doing it. I've been wondering if writing the book in truncated form and then filling out the scenes later would make it easier to see the whole thing at once.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:58pm EDT
I have heard about this reading backwards too ... Maybe I'll give it a try!

I'll check those out Nancy!
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 9:59pm EDT
I've heard that the reading backwards tip is helpful too, Beth. I've tried it but found it to be too confusing. I couldn't find a flow and got frustrated. Scanning a printed page (without reading) helps to find echo words and misspellings.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 9:59pm EDT
I'm not quite that organized either Pat! I've heard people say they either do outlines or don't!
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:00pm EDT
That's a great idea Deborah - scanning for echo words & misspellings
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:01pm EDT
Beth, re: pet words. I have so many! I took out about three dozen "a little"s from one manuscript. And "just"s litter my pages.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 10:03pm EDT
A book that helped me with my editing is: Self Editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King. I've not tried reading backwards, I too think it would confuse me too much.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:03pm EDT
Sometimes I wonder? I get so much out of these chats - even when I miss and go back and read the comments.

I never thought of looking at my pages for the pet words - I guess it just makes too much sense!
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 10:04pm EDT
I'm not an outliner either. I feel that if I go to the trouble of doing a comprehensive outline, I could've been writing the book. I don't like losing the first excitement I have for a story, but if I talk too much about it or write too many notes, I lose the initial impact the story has on me. I know some folks are great outliners--just doesn't work for me.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:04pm EDT
Pat, "Just" is my new pet peeve word. They really pop out at me, whether they're in my pieces or other writers manuscripts I'm editing. It used to be "that" but writers are pretty savy about not using that word anymore.
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 10:05pm EDT
Pat, just is one of my words, too. I use it all the time.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:05pm EDT
I don't outline either--I compose my chapter breakdown as I'm writing the first draft.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 10:08pm EDT
Pat, it's funny because I do start with a loose outline, but in the first draft it changes, a lot. So then I re-think and do another outline, do my second re-write and it also changes. But usually in the second re-write I'm able to make the changes and pull it together. I'm on step 3 and just discovered a chapter that's headed for the trash can. So, it really is a process for me, I do the outline so I can keep the story going, and keep everything on track. It's just the best way for me to create the book. I don't have the entire novel in my head until way into the process. I've heard other writers get the novel in their heads first and then just write it out.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:09pm EDT
Here's an interesting tidbit I learned from John Lescroat at ThrillerFest last year. He (like every other bestselling author out there) must write a book a year. What his editor wants from him is a brief synopsis and an outline BEFORE he starts writing the novel. He said the finished novel never turns out to be what he outlined, but it keeps his editor happy. The reason for this is to make sure no other writers under the publishers label has the same idea, as well as to watch out for other manuscripts that may come over the transom that may be considered for publication. I found that to be quite interesting.
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:11pm EDT
I've heard that talking about a book takes away from the urgency to write, and I have discovered that it's true. I never used to talk about writing, and just did it. Now I talk about it and don't do it.

Of course, I've been editing other works, (yesterday I spent four hours working on four paragraphs -- just couldn't get the dang connecting sentence right) but that doesn't get my poor hero away from that dang volcano.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:12pm EDT
I've been reading about ThrillerFest on various agent/author blogs and find such stories very interesting Deborah!

How often do others attend conferences. I've read about the Maui Writers and seen that many a writer was discovered there...

Anyone have thoughts?
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:14pm EDT
Oddly enough, I do outline, but as I'm writing. My novels usually take place over weeks or months, so I have to keep a timeline going or I get confused. Especially if I have more than one point of view character.
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:15pm EDT
Jan, I've never gone to a conference.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:17pm EDT
I regularly attended conferences when I was working in healthcare (on the college where I taught or hospitals dime) ... but now that I'm not working full-time and counting my pennies I'm trying to be more descriminating.

I really enjoyed this conference - it was local and reasonably priced...
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:17pm EDT
I try to go to a few conferences every year. I attended the Maui conference about 8 years ago but found that one to be a total waste of money and time. It was a huge rah rah session and nothing more. ThrillerFest is the best conference I've ever attended. The first 2 were here in AZ and then in NYC. I wasn't able to swing it this year but a writer friend of mine did and there were over 30 agents there willing to talk to writers about their completed manuscripts. The workshops are generally very good too.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:18pm EDT
Maybe if I can get my non-fiction book published I'll get a foot in the door for my fiction?? I just hope it doesn't work the other way around!
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:18pm EDT
Deborah, sounds like fun. Do you make many contacts?
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 10:19pm EDT
Deborah, I've heard that too, about outlines changing and for writers not to worry about that part of it. When I have an editor at a publishing house, I'll be happy to submit some kind of synopsis or outline to keep him happy. ;-)

I just checked on an article I wrote last year here at Gather. It's about the Web Frequency Indexer developed by a woman from Georgetown Univ. It's apparently being monitored by someone else now. The new web link is Web Frequency Indexer.

What you can do is dump your entire ms. into a text box and the program will list every word and the frequency of use. The list can list words alphabetically, by highest usage, or lowest usage. It's a great tool to find overused words. I've run both my full-length novels through it. An eye-opener, to be sure.
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:20pm EDT
Jan, some agents want writers who do both fiction and non-fiction.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 10:21pm EDT
That is interesting, Deborah. I find story ideas come to me, but not the ins and outs of the plot until I've started writing and think I know where I'm going only to find out the story wants to take a turn or two and I let it go where it needs to go. And many times it comes out much better than what I'd thought it would be. It must be the muse. So, my outlines are by no means set in stone, they're just a tool to get off the launch pad.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:22pm EDT
Back to editors -

Deborah, did your agent lead you to your editor or did you find editor first?

And Nancy and Beth too!
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 10:24pm EDT
I've only gone to one conference, but I wasn't impressed. Some great tips and the enthusiasm was encouraging, but a lot of that kind of thing I get here. Others I went with were over-the-moon excited and go back every year, but that particular one wasn't worth the money to me.

I like the idea of Jan's experience of a 40-person conference. I've looked at one that meets in Colorado every September. It's small and intimate. I may try that one year.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:26pm EDT
I guess I'll have to do a medical thriller. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff in my years working in the neonatal intensive care unit.

I had just finished reading Steven King's the Dark Half (about the twin that didn't form, but was a lump in his brain). A baby was born with the same thing - but the twin (or blob) was in one of his eye sockets. And there was an eye in the middle of it. And the eye followed you as you walked by the bedside!
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:27pm EDT
It was really nice Beth - the breakout group sizes were 9 to 10 people and we were able to do exercises and read and critique each other since the group size was so small. I really liked that!
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 10:28pm EDT
I'm not yet at the agent stage. Once you're with a publisher, you'll have an editor. Or, you can hire an editing service. But I've seen the works of some so-called editing services. I'll do my own editing, I do believe! And I'm not shy about asking folks to read for me. I also give them pointed questions--where were you bored, lost, excited? Did you cry? Did you see something coming a mile away? Did anything shock you? Do you want more (or less) of anything?
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Pat Bertram Jul 17, 2008, 10:28pm EDT
Beth, Where in Colorado does it meet?

I tried the web frequency indexer. Very interesting! I used just five times in the chapter I submitted.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:30pm EDT
I guess I'll have to break down and get my friends to read my work and give them a survey of questions to answer.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:31pm EDT
What is the web frequency indexer?
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:31pm EDT
I made some great contacts at ThrillerFest, Pat. Most of them writers and authors who I'm still in contact with. Four agents were interested enough to request initial chapters and one wanted the entire manuscript. Alas, no agents picked me up last year. My agent literally came to me after finding my homepage on PublishersMarketplace.com.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:32pm EDT
Beth, that's a great link I'll have to check out. I would worry about loading an entire manuscript that could essentially be pirated, but perhaps chunks at a time wouldn't be too scary.
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Nancy N. Jul 17, 2008, 10:33pm EDT
Jan, there is a website called predators and editors that lists all the editors. Here is the URL: http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/peeslm.htm The way I found mine was browsing the web. I didn't know about the Predator/Editor website. And I notice the company I went to was not rated very well on the PE website. But I liked my editor. You can do a search on her name and pull up a lot of information about her. She's written over 52 published mystery novels and had some stories published in the Alfred HItchcock Mysteries. I think she only works with first time novelists and the cost was really minimal. Like I said earlier, she explains everything, so it was a learning experience, too. I think the cost of classes to learn what she taught me would have been way more than what she charged.
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:34pm EDT
I've wondered if PublishersMarketplace was good???

How many books have you published Deborah?
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Jan C. Jul 17, 2008, 10:35pm EDT
I've been on Predators and Editors

THanks Nancy - I'll check her out. I've seen some charge HUGE fees and others not, so I'm just wondering how you know.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 17, 2008, 10:36pm EDT
Jan, the word "editor" is confusing. My agent currently has the proposal (synopsis, 1st 5 chapters, bio) to editors at publishing houses right now. As for content/line editors, fortunately my agent worked as a content editor at several major publishing houses before she started agenting.
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Beth H. Jul 17, 2008, 10:38pm EDT
Deborah, when I first heard about the indexer (Jan, see my link in my comment from 10:19), I emailed the creator. Nothing is cached. With someone new hosting it, I'd probably ask again, but they weren't trying to grab text. Just provide a service. One I'd actually considered asking a programmer to do for me just before I found this one.
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