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by Pat S.
Member since:
January 27, 2007

Sex Scenes vs. Love Scenes -- Writing Article #23

July 02, 2008 08:23 PM EDT (Updated: July 02, 2008 11:18 PM EDT)
views: 130 | comments: 108

        Sex and love.  Most folks will agree they are best when one accompanies the other.  But each, by itself, can be entertaining as well.

        Styles in literature, as it pertains to sex and love, are as changeable as anything seen on a New York fashion runway.  Things that used to get an author "banned in Boston" are now found on bestseller lists.  Sex and love don't just show up in steamy romance novels anymore.  They are equally likely to appear in thrillers or mysteries or just about any other genre.

        The treatment of sex and love in literature runs the gamut.  Back in the 70s and 80s, blatant scenes of often-violent sexual assault, in what came to be known as "bodice rippers", were what passed for "love" scenes in the romance industry.  I picked up one of these not long ago and was appalled.  The hero drugged and raped the heroine in order to sully her so that her fiancé would no longer want her.  He did this, of course, because he loved her, and eventually, she returned that affection.  In another famous, and hugely bestselling series by Rosemary Rogers, the hero and heroine romp through three books, willy-nilly engaging in sex and/or love affairs and/or marriages with multiple partners.  If I recall, the heroine is sexually assaulted by bandits, pirates, a Turkish pasha, Native Americans, soldiers, and prison guards, as well as by her beloved.  Of course, it is only the last one she loves.  And in spite of abandoning her multiple times (at one time, while she is pregnant with his twins), marrying and/or cavorting with others, of course the hero loves her as well, and there is the requisite happily ever after.

        In mainstream contemporary erotica today, love is sometimes included as an element, but just as often, the encounters are purely for sexual purposes.  The sex scenes in these works very often are include threesomes/multiples, same sex couplings, every level of BDSM from light to dark, or a combination of these elements.  Plot and character development varies from being an integral part of the story, to merely being the thread that twines through the scenes.  Yet even in these, at least by mainstream publishers such as Ellora's Cave, certain acts and pairings are still off limits.

        Popular new inspirational love stories are at the opposite end of the spectrum, with the emphasis on relationship development, the sacredness of one's body and sex, and the invaluable importance of love as the most important element in the story.  These types of stories are gaining growing audiences.

        The current "fashion" in literature, as far as sex scenes vs. love scenes goes, provides enormous freedom for authors and readers of every taste and style.  How do you, as a writer, incorporate love scenes or sex scenes or love/sex scenes in your works?  How did you decide what level of heat was right for you to write about?  And if you don't include this in your works, why not?

The group No Whine, Just Champagne will try to answer this question during our Live Chat on Thursday, July 3rd, at 9:00pm ET. Hope to see you there!

Expand Tags: no whine just champagne, no whine, sex scenes vs love scenes, sex, love
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Comments: 108

Ginny H. Jul 2, 2008, 8:46pm EDT
I do screenplays but I don't include sex scenes because I just don't see the need. If I ever do write a complete novel, I think I would most likely do the same thing for the same reason. I also want to attract a larger audience.
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Pat S. Jul 2, 2008, 8:48pm EDT
Hi Ginny! Interesting idea, that sex scenes would turn off an audience, or reduce the reading pool, which is what I think you're saying. Please be sure to join us tomorrow at 9:00 EST, to discuss this more!
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~*~Danyale~*~ N. Jul 2, 2008, 8:50pm EDT
my question is how u could ever love someone who raped u as u said was in a book u read thats just plain sick!!! I'am a writer and seriously i never ad sex scenes because i believe love is way beyond sex and that sex is just a added bonus where there is if u have love the passion is a givin its already there but yet the romance is way beyond anything sexually you could ever touch
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Pat S. Jul 2, 2008, 9:19pm EDT
Hi Danyale. Back then sexual mores were changing. It was a time when women raised in the uptight 50s were moving into the anything goes 70s. It was most often presented as "forced seduction" (tip: it's regaining in popularity in romance novels today, after going very much out of style). It was a way for "nice" girls to have the freedom in novels to engage in non-marital relations. I do hope you join us tomorrow night for more discussion!
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simon g. Jul 2, 2008, 11:33pm EDT
I wont be available tomorrow night, so I thought I would weigh in early.
I think it is possible to write about sex without love, and about love without sex. The hardest is to write a loving sex scene. It isnt hard to write one, but it is hard to write one well.

Sex ( without love)

His eyes lingered on her legs, and then rose to her face. Seeing her watching him look at her, was all he needed. He smiled and walked over to her.
"Hi"
"Hi"
"Are you staying here?"
"Yes I am"
"Alone?"
"Why do you ask?"
"Why do you think?"
She was smiling, and he stopped talking and held out his hand. She took it, slipped off the bar stool, and allowed him to lead her away from the pool, and along the path leading to the beach.

"Oh", she murmured, "I love the beach at night." They reached the sand and the music from the resort faded as the sound of the surf grew in intensity. At some point, when they were far enough away, he stopped, and took her into his arms. There was no resistance on her part. Within a few minutes, the beach dress and the bathing suits were gone. He penetrated her while they were still standing, and then, after a few moments she got down on her hands and knees. Finally, braving the hard packed sand, and the gentle wash of the ocean, she lay down on her back, and they came together in a thunderous and joyful tribute to their youth and happiness.

Love (without sex.)

He could see her sitting there at the bar. She was beautiful. Her hair moved as she talked to the girl sitting next to her. Her whole body participated in every word she spoke. Her eyes sparkled, and her skin shone. Helena. He said her name under his breath, thinking of the first time he had met her, back at the start of the semester. She was kind, she was gentle. She had gone with him to a movie, and he had kissed her when he brought her back to the dorm. And now here they were, at the same resort at the same time. He thought again of the words he would use when he walked up to her. And then it happened. Some older guy, maybe 30 or more approached her. They were staring at each other, and talking. She was smiling. Why? She didn't know this guy. Oh no, she was leaving with him.

He watched them head away from the poolside and walk, hand in hand toward the beach. This cannot be happening, he told himself. He wanted to follow, but he stopped himself. The pain was physical and agonizing. The world had ended, and he wondered why no one else was running hysterically from the scene of universal doom.

Love and Sex Together

Exactly the same as scene 1, except that the man is the narrator from scene 2.
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Pat S. Jul 2, 2008, 11:38pm EDT
Simon, darling, a truly untoppable comment! Excellently done! Sorry you won't be here. Clearly, you have much to contribute to the conversation!
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:28am EDT
This should be a good discussion. There are all kinds of love scenes, (as opposed to sex scenes) and not just between couples but also between friends, family members, parent and child. And it can be as delicate as a touch on the hand.

See you all tonight! (Except Simon, of course.)
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:49am EDT
Pat B., I was wondering who would be the first one to say something about that! I nearly did in my article, but wanted to see if someone else would grab that idea. Yes, love scenes are not just between adults. The love between family members is topic ripe for discussion of 'love scenes'.

And one of the reasons I specifically asked Simon to participate was because of his contribtion to the Sex/Violence discussion a few weeks ago, where he wrote a wonderful example of love expressed with no more than a heated glance.
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Sharon B. Jul 3, 2008, 10:57am EDT
great article
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 1:11pm EDT
Hi Sharon! Do hope you join us for the discussion tonight. It's always a lively group of folks!
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:00pm EDT
Hello all and welcome to tonight's No Whine, Just Champagne conversation! I know many folks will be out watching fireworks tonight or tomorrow, and this topic is also likely to ignite some sparks! If you post an excerpt or example of your writing, please remember the article is not flagged, in spite of the topic. Please clean it up or bleep it out if necessary, so we can keep the article open for everyone to enjoy!
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:04pm EDT
Hi, Pat. I had no idea this was a fireworks night, but if anything can get people to stop by, love and sex would be it!
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:06pm EDT
Hi Pat B! Yes, I forgot about the fireworks as well. Fortunately, I'm watching them from the comfort of my living room later!
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:07pm EDT
I don't often read romance, because those novels seldom have romance. Sex scenes without love in them doesn't seem romantic to me.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:09pm EDT
On the other hand, love scenes without sex are quite romantic. People listening to each other, sharing laughs, helping each other, caring about each other are all elements of love scenes though not necessarily sex scenes.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:10pm EDT
What about erotica Pat? (I know, some folks would never admit they read it). I do. The best, of course, includes love, but they can be really just right for the moment, even without real love. I've also read a number of "chick lit" type books, where the "friends with benefits" comes into play. Sex for physical satisfaction, without intimacy.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:12pm EDT
Pat, I liked what you said earlier, about love scenes being more than just romance. Sometimes the most wonderful love scenes include parent/child love, or the love fo a beloved animal, or even love of country. To me, and fitting for the holiday, a scene with a person doing something self-sacrificing for a cause greater than themselves, is also a "love" scene, and quite moving.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:12pm EDT
Hello Pat B & S. I don't much like romances either, Pat B. I'm First Reader for an exceptional romance writer (her latest just won the Indie Publishers Book first place award in the multi-cultural category). I've tried over and over to get her to write something more mainstream, but she's dead set on staying in the romance category. Her stuff is HOT!!!
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:14pm EDT
Erotica is a HUGE market--but you're right, I doubt many people would lay claim to reading them.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:17pm EDT
Hi Deborah! How lucky for you to be a first reader for an author like that (I happen to really love romance). And congrats to your friend! OK, what makes her works hot? What turns up the heat?
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:17pm EDT
I mostly write love scenes, though I did write a sex scene once. It was odd in that it was a flashback. While making love to a woman who came on to him, he thought of another woman -- a concubine -- who taught him about sex. I thought it was interesting, because what writer in their right mind goes into a flashback at such a time. It should be an action scene, right?

But I used it to show how much he loved the woman he finally ended up with.

What made him flash back to the past was the woman's perfume, the same one the concubine wore. And then when he smelled the same perfume on his true love, "From now on, he knew, whenever he caught a whiff of that scent, it would remind him of this moment, of her, of the teasing look in her eyes."
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:18pm EDT
Some of the hottest love stuff I've read involves no explicit sex at all. I'm thinking of the Stephanie Plum series. Two hot men, lots of implied stuff, very romantic any many ways, and totally closed door sex. We've never seen her in bed with anybody.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:20pm EDT
Pat B, just beautiful. I love the evocative use of scent to trigger romance.

And I also think it's cool to use a flashback at that moment. Sounds like you didn't want the focus to be on the sex happening, but on the emotions, and the love. Well done!
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:20pm EDT
Let's see if I can keep up with you guys.

I write romance, and am not ashamed to say I do.
I could write erotica, but wouldn't tell a soul if a title was mine.

Love plays a major role, the relationship is developed making physical intimacy a natural next step. There are degrees here as well. Personally I try to play on the side of not too much detail and focus on the emotions of the situation.

I have a wip where a friends with benefits will be mentioned, not shown, because it's part of the character's experience. I'm certainly not in the habit of having bed hopping characters.. it has no purpose in propelling the story forward..except maybe to fill pages.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:21pm EDT
I am ashamed to admit it, but I don't read erotica. I've tried several times, thinking I should find out how to do it so I could add a bit of heat to my books, but I can't do it. If you can't feel the heat, the positions sound revolting. I just want to shut the door on them. Same with sex scenes in movies. It's not prudery, more like boredom.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 9:23pm EDT
Hey, guys.

I enjoy reading both love scenes and sex scenes. I like, too, when they are blended. What turns me off is is a romance with absolutely no hint of sexual tension or a sex scene only about parts A and B with no surrounding narrative. Either extreme is unrealistic and therefore takes me right out of the story.

As for friend and family love, very different indeed.
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:23pm EDT
I agree with Pat S. I think that is an inspired choice of placement for such a scene.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:24pm EDT
Hi, Deborah!

Hi, Wendy!
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:26pm EDT
Reading erotica depends on the specific book. Some are very good, and some are very, very bad. I tend not to like the ones that are just all body parts and no emotion. It's like just watching really bad porn.

Hi Wendy! Modern mainstream romance does frown on bed-hopping, although clearly, in the 70s and early 80s, that was the norm. Only Kathleen Woodiweiss, of the six grand dames fo bodice rippers, had monogamous relationships. I'm glad to see the trend now is definately for monogamy.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:26pm EDT
My romance writer friend implements every sense and nuances to her sex scenes. She includes positions too, but isn't crude about them. They're erotic without going too far. Still, I blush much of the time I'm reading the scenes.
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:26pm EDT
Hi Pat.. seems like a slow night.. good for me.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:27pm EDT
If I ever attempted erotica, I'd definitely use a pseudonym!
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:27pm EDT
Actually, I rewrote the book starting in the present rather than back twenty years before as I originally had it, and I hated to think of that great scene ending up on the cutting room floor. So I stuck it in there, but the scent used several times throughout the book held it all together.

Hi, Beth. I hate sex scenes with only body parts. Or heat that's artificially generated because of som contrived conflict.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:28pm EDT
Hi Beth! I agree, there needs to at least be that tension, that yearning.

So, any examples of non-adult/sex related scenes of love? Pat B., while you're busy killing off half of a state, do you include sisterly/brotherly love, or parental love?
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:29pm EDT
To describe the act rather than the emotions and the headiness of the experience doesn't float my boat. Tell me how his scent surrounded and excits her so on..
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 9:29pm EDT
My first novel had almost no sexual moments, though it touched on romance briefly. A couple readers--including my mother--asked where the sex was. My second ms. has a romantic scene that doesn't go beyond kissing, though there are quite a few scenes of romantic/sexual tension. But not too heavy. The third novel is a contemporary romance and yes, there is sex. I hope I'm writing scenes that fit each story.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:30pm EDT
Deborah, I totally agree! No way would I publish erotica under my own name, although I'd have no problem writing it. I've heard it's quite lucrative!

And Brenda, you've done a magnificent job of describing an erotic scene. Yes, it should totally include all the sense, which is what you've done!
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:31pm EDT
Hi Brenda.. what you describe is erotic.. but not what the industry calls erotica which is dressed up porn in many cases.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:32pm EDT
My agent stated that editors will demand some sort of love or sex to my current novel. I wasn't willing to have the two lead characters "get into it" so I created a love interest for my hero. I must say it worked out quite well and will add a lot to the series of novels I'm creating featuring the two.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:33pm EDT
Beht, sounds like you've got the right degree of heat for each situation. For some people (like me), I guess I've been reading it so long, that I ended up not having problems writing sex scenes (trust me, at first I thought I couldn't do it, and now I really enjoy it!). But it is really draining, and as Wendy says, we need to remember t include all the elements, not just bodies.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:33pm EDT
Right, when an author changes genre most publishers want their clients to go with a different name so as not to confuse the readership. Once again, genre is paramount in many instances.
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:33pm EDT
I don't know. I think writing gratuitous sex would make me feel sullied, even with a pseudonym.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:34pm EDT
Deborah, how cool that you were able to meet their demands without sacrificing the story. And interesting that your edior demanded a scene like that. That's part of what I'm saying. They turn up everywhere!
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:36pm EDT
I was really torn as to how much sex to implement in my novel--then decided it's not about the "sex" between my characters, its about the love they share. I decided on implementing the after-glow instead of the actual act. Senses such as what she smells like and the atmosphere to the room was essential to creating a comfortable scene before the storm of emotion and suspense occurs in the following chapters.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:37pm EDT
I remember reading something not long ago, The Blue Lady maybe? Anyway, nuns and priests and heavy on religion and yet there in the middle of it was a scene with, I believe it was a priest, reminiscing about an encounter in his youth. So yes, it looks like they are looking to "heat up" just about everything these days.
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:37pm EDT
So much of romance happens out of the bedroom. The grazing of fingertips on the underside of a wrist. As Pat B. suggests a certain scent or perfume. A smile that makes your breath hitch.. that's the stuff I want to see.
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Ken C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:37pm EDT
No whine, just sham pain.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
That's exactly it, Deborah. Closed door sex can be just as satisfying to the reader. What comes before, and the afterglow, and the impacts of it can add another layer to a story.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
I think sexual/love elements are also keyed into the character POV. If you're writing a woman, it's more likely that she's feeling emotions--wanting emotions--in addition to wanting the physical. If the POV character is a man, he's not gonna have that same need to dwell on the romantic elements. If the story is sci/fi or suspense, love/sex/romance may not even play a role in the story.

I mention male/female differences knowing that not all men are the same and not all women are the same and not all want in the same way. But men and women are different and typically have different responses in the same situation.
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
You guys are just a step ahead of me at every turn tonight..rock on
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
Pat S., in the first book I killed off half the state, I had all kinds of love. A depressed woman befriended a homeless woman, which got her involved with the homeless community. Then a homeless man dropped a small boy off at her house, and so there was more love. And then the boy bonded with the man she'd come to love:

"He got to his feet and walked over to Greg. He stood in front of Greg for a long time, staring at him with wide, solemn eyes. Then he climbed into Greg's lap and nestled into the crook of his arm.

Kate stopped breathing. Since she heard not even a whisper of a sound, she thought the others had, too, but she didn't turn to see. She couldn't take her eyes off the little boy; although Shadow had come to tolerate their hugs, this was the first time he had willingly touched any of them."
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:39pm EDT
Pat did you bring a shovel? I think Ken needs it.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:40pm EDT
Hello Ken! I know you have romance and sex of many stripes in your books, often used for manipulation of others, or personal gain. And it works. We end up disliking certain characters for their casual approach, and liking others for their "what the he**" attitude towards sex.
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Wendy C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:40pm EDT
Lovely Pat B.. so heart warming.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:42pm EDT
Ken: LOL

But that's not a proper response to the question. Do you write love scenes? You'd have to; I can't imagine any book without some sort of connection between two people.
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Ken C. Jul 3, 2008, 9:42pm EDT
I'm not going to post the sordid sex scene, but here is the aftermath.

When she awoke, the room was bright with light and a maid pounded on the door. Marvin was gone and all his clothes were missing. Moshi staggered to her feet, the only things left behind were the two empty bottles and a geologic layer of greasy sediment in the bathtub. There was a five dollar bill under the empty gin bottle. Moshi shoved it into her pocket. She unlatched the door.
"Checkout time was at noon," the maid said. "Are you going to pay for another night? My shift is almost over, I have to clean the room."
Moshi nodded and gathered her plastic bags.
"Sorry," she whispered as she maneuvered around the maid and fled into the hallway.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 9:42pm EDT
Wendy, yes, the breath hitch. I like finding that when I read. That something that hooks into me and makes me think, Ahhh...

Ken... I have no way to convey the sound of my groan.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:43pm EDT
Nah, Ken never needs a shovel with me! I've read love scenes in his works. The man is a total marshmallow! And he does love scenes quite well, if unconventionally!

Pat B., yes, oh yes, that's absolutely a love scene, and very well done!
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:45pm EDT
No, now see I like what Ken wrote, but likely because I'm reading the book where that appears, and I know his character of Moshi. The woman has made some seriously bad choices about the men in her life, but she's a wonderful character. You find yourself pulling for her to stop those choices.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:45pm EDT
In my current book, I had a sex scene where I shut the door and let them be. The point of that scene is that afterward he paced the floor while she slept because he was incapable of falling asleep with a woman. Then, when he meets his true love, he will fall asleep with his head in her lap. That's the book where I'm going to attempt a comic, thought touching, love scene. Probably not a lot of sex though. But who knows. I've still got my poor hero running from that dang volcano.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:47pm EDT
Pat B, what a lovely idea! So sweet and simple, that he can fall asleep with her. And yes, comedy absolutely has a place in some sex scenes!
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:47pm EDT
Wendy, you're absolutely right about the wrist touching. I read that's one of the most erogenous non-erogenous zones. Very romantic.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:48pm EDT
Nice, Pat B. The element of intimacy you've indicated is exceptional.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 9:48pm EDT
The main style of love in my first story is that between brothers. Not blood brothers, but brothers in war and adventure. They literally give their lives for one another, both by laying them down on the battlefield and by serving one another off the battlefield. I also have blood-family love in that one, highlighted by teasing between siblings.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:50pm EDT
Beth, that's a perfect example of the other kind of love I'm talking about. Soldiers in arms. Sisters and brothers. The stranger stepping in to help another. Beautiful!

Pat B, and Wendy. Yes, it's the addition of those tiny, almost throw away elements that add depth. The inside of the wrist is a good one (and the inside of the elbow!)
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:53pm EDT
I'm looking back at what passed for romance in the past (thinking of bodice rippers here). Do you suppose the new trend toward monogamy in romances has to do with a shift in morality, or something to do with the growing number of really scary STDs?
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 9:56pm EDT
Beth: laying down one's life for another -- perfect for a love scene.

I think it's funny. You started out with no sex, but each book you write has more than the last.

My first attempt at writing a novel (which needs so much rewriting that I don't consider it one of my works) was very erotic, and each novel has less than the last. In fact, the last one had none at all. I tried to put it in there, but it didn't fit. The couple were so in tune that it seemed redundant.
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 9:56pm EDT
I think the monogamy issue depends on the piece. If the character needs to sleep around . . . then he must. Being true to the character is paramount.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 9:57pm EDT
Ok, I need to step out for about 20 minutes to catch some fireworks, but I'll be back! Carry on!
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 9:59pm EDT
I'd think so, Pat. On the STDs. The 70s were anything goes. People--some people--have realized there are consequences to every act. Disease is just one problem area. But that possibility can be mined by a writer.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 10:05pm EDT
Pat B., you and I are moving either away from each other or toward each other. That is funny. I'm fairly sure my third story in the medieval/adventure series will have little to no sex. I'm planning to kill off the hero's bride-to-be either before the story begins or right at the beginning. It's what sets him off on his quest. I'm not planning on giving him a new lady love in the story, but that might change. I haven't even started that one yet.
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Jill Lynn A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:07pm EDT
My best sex-scene sentence, in my opinion:

"The rising sun shot pink spots of light across his chest, and I chased them with my lips."

Now that I'm reading it again, though, I don't like the word "shot" Ideas?
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 10:07pm EDT
I meant to say that I like Sy's examples and Ken's morning after. What works for the character will work for the story.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:09pm EDT
Beth, we will probably end up meeting somewhere with the proper amount of sex/love/erotica in our books.

I just thought of another reason for the monogamous relationships in books: there is always a movement away from the middle toward the outer reaches. So perhaps the trend is toward monogamy on one side and eroticism on the other with nothing in the middle.

Also, with series books, the old way of the detective having a new sex partner in every book went out when female detectives came in.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 10:09pm EDT
Jill, I like shot. It's the pink spots that got me. Most sunrises that I see are true yellow or just pale light. And the light is long rather than circular spots. Is the light coming through a curtain?
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Deborah J Ledford Jul 3, 2008, 10:12pm EDT
Jill, I can't really visualize the pink spots of light on his chest--or the fact that she "chased" them with her lips. As for the shot--perhaps glistened. Maybe you could even implement a bit more=The rising sun glistened in the blond swirls on his chest. (then go on with the lip action)
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Jill Lynn A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:12pm EDT
Yes, the light would be coming through a curtain. Feel free to reword. It's the sensuality of the sentence I like, the wording I could change.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 10:12pm EDT
How about erotic monogamy? Why can't the best sex happen between committed couples? Yes, I know books need drama and tension, but that doesn't mean the couple can't be happy by themselves.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:12pm EDT
Jill: trailed?
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:13pm EDT
traced?
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Jill Lynn A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:13pm EDT
Trailed could work.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 10:14pm EDT
Jill, I like the action of the sentence, that's why shot works for me. Shot in the first part and chased in the second part balance the sentence well.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:16pm EDT
Beth, exactly. I like books where the couple is committed to each other, and the conflict comes from outside of them. Couples who fight all the time, who throw insults at each other, just don't cut it for me. Especially when they go through the whole book in combat, then end up in love. In lust, perhaps, but love? No. Love connotes more than constant conflict.
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Jill Lynn A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:18pm EDT
Most of the romances I've read do focus on monogamy; not so much chick lit.
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Vivian A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:20pm EDT
Sorry I'm late, it always seems the cry for food happens when the starting bell tolls.

Trying to follow: gratuitous sex is like junk food, you can honestly only eat so much of it. Part of it is cyclically and historically speaking trends of sexuality and hemlines often follow economics. Roaring 20's with ground breaking attitudes were followed by the Great Depression. The eighties were still fallout for the wildness of the seventies which was just about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

The romance market is mainly geared to women; therefore, the media must meet the requirements. Women are more highly aroused by psychological than sexual. Ironically, in opposition to heterosexual males, heterosexual females are not "turned off" by imagery of women like HM are of other men.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:25pm EDT
Vivian: how true. Magazine publishers discovered long ago that if you want to get men to buy a magazine, put a scantily clad female on the cover, and if you want to get women to buy a magazine, put a scantily clad female on the cover.
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Beth H. Jul 3, 2008, 10:27pm EDT
Jill, you had me searching for a one-liner of my own that I liked, but then I got caught up in a scene I hadn't read in a while. Hmmm... Have to see if I have anything I can post here.

But the dog is demanding a walk. See y'all in a few.
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Vivian A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:30pm EDT
Follow point to tie into monogamy: women are physical, but also heavily psychological in their lovemaking; therefore, a novel of gratuitous sex is empty. Yes it was nice, but leaves you unfilled. (Junk food ref.- boy, my mind is scattered. Sorry my previous comment was unclear.)

Love- is an emotion while sex is an action. As pointed out, love has multiple manifestations, as does sex, though only a few are sanctioned in our society.

For me the most powerful loves scenes are those that denote tenderness in a character when you least expect it.

Funny Pat B. how women place themselves within the image of another. The difference in the hardwiring of the male and female mind are truly amazing.
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Vivian A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:33pm EDT
Here is a snippet from a wip to add to the pile:
A cold damp pressed against her cheek, she rubbed at it to go away. Her toes peeked out from the duvet and dangled over the edge, suddenly a warm large tongue licked them. Sticking her head up and pushing the hair out of her face Natalie could see Hannibal. Groaning, she rolled over and into something else. That something else was – oh God, as last night came roaring back into her mind and she surveyed both the disheveled state of her bedding and their nakedness. She slid out of bed, hoping not to disturb its sole remaining occupant.
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Vivian A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:34pm EDT
Jill I originally thought of arced, instead of shot, but I don't like the way it looks.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 10:36pm EDT
Back again, and great discussion still going! Hi Vivian and Jill!

Jill, I'm with the rest of the folks. I love the concept you have written, and just a couple of word changes will spike the heat!

Vivian, yes, wonderful. Women do see themselves within images of one another, which is why it is so important for our heroines to be someone the reader is comfortable living in for awhile.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 10:38pm EDT
Vivian, wonderful snippet! I love that element of surprise and comedy (with the tongue licking her foot!
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Vivian A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:41pm EDT
Exactly Pat. If I can't identify with the protagonist, then I can't be vested in her journey. She doesn't need to be perfect, but she has to mirror attributes I find desirable and seeking improvement. A perfect character is just as off-putting as a morally reprehensible one.

Thanks- life with animals always involve a bit of comedic relief.
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:42pm EDT
Re: the difference between men and women:

He Said, She Said, He Does, She Doesn't
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 10:45pm EDT
Pat B., I LOVED that article! It was great! As for the rise, and acknowledgement, in modern novels of the risk of disease and pregnancy. I find it refreshing to see the inclusion of condoms and such in sex scenes. The first time I encountered it, it was a bit jarring, but if it's well done, it just becomes another element. But as Beth pointed out, there is fodder there for inclusion in story lines.
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Vivian A. Jul 3, 2008, 10:46pm EDT
Aah, I remember that chat Pat B.- they all are interconnected aren't they? When relationships are involved then the dynamics come into play.
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Pat S. Jul 3, 2008, 10:50pm EDT
Folks, it's been a great discussion, with, as usual, lots of thought provoking conversation! I need to cut out now, but please do carry on. Can't wait to see the rest of the comments!
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Pat Bertram Jul 3, 2008, 10:51pm EDT
I know it's uncool in this day and age, but somehow I can't make condoms exciting, so I ignore that whole issue.