Ireland Votes "No" to EU Constitution

It isn't at all clear to me what this vote really means. Sigh. There is so very much that I just don't know.

Larry, it probably feels complicated unless you have lived in Europe a long time. It actually is quite simple. Various European countries, like when the various US states ratified the US Constitution, have come up with ingenious ways to bypass a public discussion of a common European Constitution. Some 16 nations managed to slip this latest EU treaty, drafted in Lisbon las year, through a parliamentary procedure rather than to democratically present it to the electorate.

Ireland's vote today put the brakes on the whole thing for the whole of Europe. As it is now, the EU parliament is not a voted-in body, but generally selected through various countries. It is entirely bureaucratic and a money pit, and absolutely lacks the spirit found in DC. This I write even though I've written extensively of Capitol Hill's hog-like behaviors. The EU parliament is far more wasteful than anything you'll find on Capitol Hill.

I've never thought the EU was a workable idea. It looks great on paper, but the differences between the European coutnries are too great for them to come together the way the United States have.

thanks for sharing :)

Ireland's constitution is the reason they had a referendum.... would that other member states' citizens had been allowed to vote.

Good for the Irish!

from the Irish Times, which has been running a pretty good series about the treaty [vote in IE now reported at 55% to 45% against]:

" EU leaders argue the treaty is necessary to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of the union's institutions and decision-making mechanisms, which they say are showing the strain as the EU enlarges. By updating the union's internal structures it will be better able to face global challenges such as climate change, energy security and immigration.

But treaty sceptics claim the reform is not needed and that Lisbon represents an unprecedented centralisation of power in Brussels. Others say the reform does not go far enough and the EU remains unaccountable to the public."

Denmark's Constitution also has directed a referendum, which is why so many lawyers were hired after the 2005 defeat by Ireland and also Denmark, to make the wording more appealing to be swallowed hook, line and sinker. You are all right. It won't work in the current climate of insane selfishness.

Kerry, that is what is so utterly insane about the EU. There is no real accountability. Far too many are pocket-finger dancing in all sorts of "who knows who's" other pockets

The Irish leader admitted publicly that he hadn't been able to read all of the document, but wanted the Irish to take it on 'trust'...

Hmmmmmmmm. noses and troughs comes to mind when speaking about the EU, especially since it has now become such a bloated entity.

Interesting article in today's Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555556/Brown-defiant-at-Irish-EU-announcement.html

Ishbel... that is hilarious!

The EU is a money pit. Expensive as hell to live in. But the few investors are getting very fat at the trough.

But it is also due to the fact that Europe has yet to find its "spirit." The US Constitution reflects dynamically to this day, the "spirit of freedom" of 1776 from King George and his taxes. The US Revolution ignited in so many people, and not just in America, a sense of unparalleled freedom which belongs to all. "All" had a different meaning back then. Generally, you had to be a landowner to even get close to a voting booth, but that was far far better than the year before the Declaration of Independence.

Europe has not yet found its "spirit."

It has attempted to find it through a common currency and banking system.

God forbid that a constitution should be remotely related to the type of economics that has brought much of civilization to the verge of global collapse.

Happy Triple points! I am visiting your content. So sorry for the generic post but this way I get to see more peoples content and help you get those points.

I don't think we WILL find a 'European Spirit'. America was a melting pot - the EU has member states whose citizens, in the main, wish to hold on to the uniqueness of their nation..... It is in the interests of our POLITICIANS that we have the gravy train, aka EU for them to gorge themselves on the funds!

I've never been so proud to be 3/4 Irish:-)

Thanks for sharing!

Very well put, Ishbel.

A lot of Danes are celebrating their "Viking-Irish" roots.

I enjoyed your article very much and it has inspired me to look up the Lisbon Treaty. I'm afraid that the merging of countries into larger bodies of government is inevitable as industry through Globalization grows ever more powerful. I think it is something we must get under the control. We have got to learn to play the game before powerful international industry gets complete control of the world.

Serendipity would be how Jung would suggest that Europe find its "common spirit."

That means one first, individually, has to find the common spirit he/she has with all life on the planet. Europeans, as you suggest, are entirely too wrapped up in their national identities. It's a vestigial cultural organ, these various "national identities," and much of European youth is tired of it. And some flock to racist groups, on the other side of that scale.

Europe is as far away from finding its spirit via the EU as under the worst of Napoleonic tyranny.

That spirit can only percolate up from among those individuals who sense a kinship with life outside some mental, cultural or geographic boundary.

The US loses its spirit every time it separates a child from his mother, who is sent back to Mexico, and ever time someone's right to judicial due process is denied.

On a tangent to this article, good thing the US Supreme Court kept alive a bit of America's heart a few days ago, with the Guantanamo Bay inmates.

Ruth, I think ultimately, if we survive ourselves in the coming years, civilization will mostly be huge metropolitan infrastructures, each of which may have a unique educational, industrial and cultural flavor to supply to the rest of the world. Agricultural regions may be connected to these cosmopolitan centers, but I also feel that if we give technological development a more Socratic foundation than the current G-8 model, the world also will have huge regions that will be allowed to return to a more natural state of evolution, for the benefit of the globe.

Very interesting and informative. Thank you and "Good for the Irish"!

I don't WANT to be the same as a German or a Frenchwoman.... My country's history is unique - it makes me Scottish.. Just like the history of France makes the French what they are today!

Interesting about the Irish-Viking thingy - didn't they colonise Ireland?! I suspect that many a glass will be raised by Scots of Irish ancestry in pubs all over Glasgow.

Slainte!

This issue should be of concern to Americans for a number of reasons; one being that we may soon face something similar with the NAU.

This seemed like news and felt informative until the last line, which was clearly not unbiased. No matter reader opinion, the presidential bashing sticks out like a sore thumb in this article.

Once again, hooray for the Irish. Shame on them for trying to fool my cousins.

And people wonder why I'm so proud to be Irish.

Good for the Irish becausae this sound like a ploy of rich people and politicians to make everything go the way they want it too--the different european countries are just that different due to their heritages--it will be very difficult to unify any group of peoples that large.

The U.S. has an identity that was forged against a common enemy over 230 years ago. That is how the founding fathers were able to draft a constitution that everbody could support (at least enought to get it passed). The Constitution has always been held up as the epitomy of the American Identity - individual rights. And, although the states have had issues between them, the Civil war and its aftermath led us to an even greater sense of national identity.

Unless the EU ever has a common enemy and also has a substantial conflict to settle the issues of the rights of individual countries, it will never work as well.

great article

Sorry, Andrea, but that last sentence - admittedly an editorial intrusion - is an opinion shared by over 65% of Americans and some 85% of the world.

Hi sis

Rachel, I disagree that cooperation needs to be forged by defining a "common enemy." That seeking of a common enemy led much of Europe to go along with Hitler's plan.

We need to find the common friend (thread) among us all. That essentially is why the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution worked.

We're only now going to find that common thread by all of us behaving less selfish in how wide we open our eyes to behaviors that generate great suffering everywhere out of sight almost.

One of the reasons that Ireland voted down the Lisbon Treaty was due it being too vague/confusing per the Irish Times.
The Irish also refused to "honor" Chimpy McFlightsuit---good taste.
I'd love to move to Ireland--great economy, free college for all, universal health care....and the inventors of Guinness and Jamison's-and yes, I'm very proud to be Irish.

It's definately a good day to be Irish

I always thought that the European Union would not be formed in a short period of time because Europe is incredibly diverse. Ireland's vote comes as no big surprise.

Personally, I think it was very brave of the Irish to vote 'no' - particularly as Ireland has been the recipient of a HUGE amount of EU funding.

My friends in Ireland are jubilant that they carried the day!

I'm not surprised.
My theory is that Europe will not really unite until it is forced to, because of a shift in world powers.

What is really more important here, is that there is a EU at all and that today's generations have already grown up with it. They are beginning to feel and think European, that is a major shift.
One day being from Ireland in Europe, will be like being from Texas in the US.

My only fear would be that the EU parliament in Brussels will be like the Congress in Vienna, who danced at a different party every night at the expense of the populace and nothing much was ever ratified.

The bureaucracy and the cost involved is mind boggling, you are so right on with that Bent.

Thank you for sharing the information.

thanks

Good for the Irish. They have been put upon many times by other countries. That they do not want to be a part of a "union" is not a surprise to me.

European News Update, 12 noon EST US time: The two European giants, under the leadership of France's President Sarkozy and Germany's chancellor Merkel, are reacting to the Irish "No" with some unusual steps. One of these is an unofficial confirmation that the two will attempt to push the EU "Constitution" Lisbon Treaty to be ratified those member states that don't require a public referendum.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, a strong advocate that the treaty need only be a bureaucratic decision, has expressed uncertainty for the first time ever over how Denmark will now proceed, if at all, without a public referendum.

Perhaps if they could cut out the lawyers and just talk amongst themselves, this could be settled happily for all.

The EU is an inevitability that economics and border integration make unstoppable. What we are seeing are the gyrations that will decide the form that the Union takes eventually. They may go on for another generation, but they will proceed.

This will also make eventual integration of economies in other regions of the world inevitable as well, and down the road a bit, a global economic union.

The only way to stop that is to go backwards socially, economically, technoligically and likely in terms of population as well: in other words a dark age to eclipse all previous dark ages.

Most of my friends in Ireland, Great Britain and France have stated that they don't even want a constitution lumping them in with the rest of Europe.

We (the citizens of many EU countries) feel ambivalent to the EU.

The UK chose not to join the Euro and our currency is still independent. There are certain things where a common policy makes sense.

But many of us feel that the constant expansion of the Union, bringing in very poor nations without proper planning will make for DISHARMONY and racial tensions.

Whilst having relatively easy borders is a blessing in some ways - in others it has proved a disaster.

Intersting. I'll have to get more background info.

There are an awful lot of differences over there. I don't see this happening any time soon.

well said, Ishbel.

I am sure I understand politics too well. But, I understand why so many european nations don't want to be lumped into one whole body. That is just too much of an undertaking. It would just not work. They are too vast and as you say different.
There must be better ways out there. And, I hope they find that balance one day.

Andrea is correct re: the last line.
Unfortunately, the line is absolutely TRUE!

Excellent Work B.L.!

interesting

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When in high school in the 1960's, America was the melting pot. In the late 60's and early 70's college, various professors and texts called America a "salad bowl," with geopolitical clusters of distinct cultures mixed together in an effort to produce a healthy bowl of stuff. Anthropologists who studied the African-Mexican race issues of Mexico from the Conquistadors of the 15th century through to now talk of "cultural amalgamation," where eventually there existed "Mexicans." That of course does not hold true for many indigenous societies in Mexico, if you go to visit the remote regions.

Europe has had such a deep history (since the Roman Empire) of cultural strife and war, and as monarchies came and went, heads fell and new ones came, the various kingdoms and nations of Europe eventually formed very distinct cultural identities. "Waving" such nationalistic banners in war creates gets the adrenalin pumping in the battle field but with each cycling of war this phenomenon also deeply imprints into the cultural, mostly unconscious, matrix... including in art, and even in language.

America - if for a moment the indigenous peoples can forgive me - was basically founded by people who fled all this from Europe. But of course, history repeated itself after Plymouth Rock, until the stickiness of 2000 years of European violence and nationalistic fervor came to a boil with the Boston Tea Party. And the stirrings of the US identity began.

We all come from some sort of "cultural identity," even if Buddhist. "Culture" is an integrated feature of the hominid species' abilities to survive issues that caused most of our cousins to fade into extinction over millions of years of issues, such as, well, climate change.

Then there's the issue few are willing to look at empirically. CG Jung did, as have many of his peer in other disciplines. In anthropology, the seeking of a pure horizon "out there," or within, as is enculturated within many Buddhist cultures.... the quest for something beyond the mundane, day to day struggle, is often categorized into what some call a "primary drive," like other drives we are more or less hardwired to responding to, like sex, satiating hunger and thirst, flight-fright responses, etc.

This thing with creating a religion out of a primary drive to seek one's "spirit" gets integrated into the rest of the cultural matrix, and we get religions and theocracies. Eventually, the people in these localized cultural centers, mostly due to struggles with other societies who have developed their unique symbols of cultural identity - in history, eventually represented by various Crusades flags that became Europe's national flags - well, the subtle stirrings of understanding who one really is beyond the confines of less than a century of life gets neurobiologically twisted up with our other primary drives, such as seeing a shadow and either fighting it or fleeing it.

Nationalistic and theocratic identification simply is a failure to communicate. A failure to communicate with one's own self... for the drive that makes anyone seek God, or some "spirit" beyond the confines of our moment on Earth exists equally among all human beings. The only way we are going to get on to the next step of human evolution, in my opinion, is if we get wise enough to realize this, each person for him or herself.

That's an ideal scenario, often discussed in various philosophies. But believe me, there is a lot of academic misuse of that knowledge of the human organism within most modern governments. "Spin" essentially is how to evoke old cultural symbols, with a few words or other symbols, such that it triggers in the electorate the same sort of "common thread behaviors" as is often seen in Europe's soccer matches.

It's just hormones and synaptic softwiring in childhood that makes us so nuts, seeing either a foe or something to be exploited in a culture that doesn't quite resemble our own. All we are doing in this European behavior is repeating what a dog does when chasing his tail and not being able to see it as part of himself, but as a threat to his alpha placement within his "family group's hierarchy.

I know this is theory and many would think, mechanically inapplicable to resolving Europe's search for a "common spirit." There are so many historical forces in Europe (not that old, when you consider that human civilization has been around for tens of thousands of years longer than the past couple of millenniums of European history) shuffling for their "alpha" placement in a global hierarchy now. It's a bit difficult to analyze empirically because how does even the researcher separate her mostly unconscious cultural relativity from the observations she is cataloging? And how does such a theory then get applied into the mainstream nuts and bolts of getting Europe on the same page as everyone else in the world, and especially, how to get struggling nations to understand this in the midst of their chaos.

In learning about primary drives and the way in which our brains get softwired by a combination of genetics and the events of our childhoods into the early twenties, when the frontal lobe - the seat of cognition and emotional control - finally gets wired. Well, in understanding all that it becomes obvious that the only way we are going to solve the issues of today is by creating ever greater pools of stable and caring childhoods, who become the problem-solvers of tomorrow. As long as we continue to engage in economics and government building that creates environments of great stress for any population group, none of our children will have the full opportunity to develop brains that can understand something very fundamental about being a human being.

We will just be creating children who chase after their tales, like we've been doing in Europe for a couple of thousand years.

I'd like to find out more about how the EU Constitution fits into globalization. Today's globalization has been engineered by a small, wealthy elite in ways that benefit a small, wealthy elite. The benefits therefore flow to a few, while the rest of us need to worry about losing our jobs overseas. Just the threat of this keeps salaries down, plus keeps people in as state of psychological unease. Income inequality has therefore increase around the world in the era of globalization. Until we have strong international labor rights and international unions globalization is a failure when it comes to delivering a better quality of life to most people.

My gut feeling is that the EU constitution continues this trend, that it hides it beneath page after page of technical details, and that the people are therefore right to reject it. A short document of basic principles that is understandable to most people, such as the U.S. Constitution, would be far superior. But it would be impossible to hide economic elitism in such a document.

Ethan, that's an interesting point you bring forth. I have a friend who one time was a delegate in Brussels in its earlier days. She's gotten out of it and is totally disillusioned. Most of the forces in Brussels that has to do with anything that looks like legislation, to her anyways, has little or nothing to do with democracy but with the forces that started the whole thing back in the early 1970's. An industrial and economic treaty between European countries much like NAFTA. There were so many protective tariffs and agribusiness subsidies back then (and still are), and some in Europe sought ways to gain an economic world foothold such as America in those early days.

There was a sign in Copenhagen, leading into its second largest tourist attraction, that stated, "You are now leaving the EU."

But it would be an interesting journey to look carefully at the evolution of the EU, especially in terms of the multinational corporate & G8 interests who have helped shaped the EU. But there are many really idealistic and humanitarian people invested with the EU.

Being a born Dane, and having been educated and worked on three continents, I'm convinced that the only way the EU could function as a representative body is if Europe grows up.

With this likely Irish "No," the dream of many who've grown very wealthy and powerful on this failed EU bureaucracy will likely grow even wealthier until the Eurodollar hits its inflation wall -

I appreciate this article as it opens my eyes a bit more. I'll read more. Just saying hello. SAlud.

I am pretty much an internationalist and support the idea of a united Europe and, eventually, a united planet. But it has to be done in a way to make everyone's life better and that is not happening.

The EU is generally seen to be 'unfair' by many of its citizens. We all know of instances of 'road building' where the road goes nowhere. For instance, on the island of Crete there is a fine roadway all the way from a port to the middle of nowhere... who lived in the middle of nowhere? The then Greek President!

Good for the fightin' Irish!

northern or Southern Ireland? I imagine Southern and no. is gt. britain, hope to keep the pound

Ireland is always the South of Ireland, aka Eire. Northern Ireland is always written as such, a constituent part of the UK.

The EU is just another step towards the ''New World Order" that bu$h and the neo cons want. They are trying to get a NAU and an PRU that will just about complete the take over of the world by bankers. These unions are bad for the common man and good for the wealthy. We will sit back and watch, as our countries and earth are plundered by those who have never felt want. It's really ashamed.

You can't erase centuries of cultural emnity-or identity-with a piece of paper. We Americans formed our own country to be free of european influence-and arrogance. Our free-market system has served us well these past 230-plus years,and has made us strong and free to go our own way should the need arise. This seems to stick in the craw of the socialist/communist nations of the world,who feel that we've gotten too big for our britches. The only thing socialism has done for Europe (especially western Europe) Is to further entrench the monied class,while leaving the masses either treading water just to survive,or leaving those few ambitious souls who want to get ahead paying the freight of those who don't. While we do have our own monied class,our people at least have the chance to get where they are-if they're willing to work hard enough. I'm not concerned that a large portion of the free world doesn't like us. Without our contribution,a lot of these same countries wouldn't exist. A lot of western Europeans semed to have forgotten that the US expended a lot of blood and treasure to stop tyranny's march across the planet. Mabe they need another iron boot on their collective necks to remind them who their friends are. As for the way we are dealing with the terrorist threat,we were the ones who were attacked on Sept.11th. This is how we choose to deal with it,to keep terrorism from spreading across our own land. If the rest of the world doesn't like it,that's tough. Until they have walked in our shoes,the self-righteous of this planet should butt out and leave us alone. In closing,let me say to the Irish-well done fo wanting to preserve your cultural identity. As an American of partial Irish decent,I salute you! As someone who lived in Europe for seven years,I never got a chance to visit my ancestral homeland. Hopefully,I can remedy that in the future.-Norman Chambers

It's kind of funny, what dummy said:

The EU is just another step towards the ''New World Order" that bu$h and the neo cons want.

I'm a neocon, and my earlier comment applauded the Irish rejection. Either I'm not a neocon, or you don't understand the conservative movement, Dr.

I understand the conservative movement. I also understand the neo con movement. They are not the same thing. So you think that there should be a ruling class of ultra wealthy bankers, that believe they know what's better for us than we do. You believe that there should be a permanent under class of economic slaves. That would make you a neo con, not a conservative.

Norman - there are few Europeans who do not remember or recognise the help given to the continent by the soldiers of many countries, not just the USA, including your near neighbours, Canada - and australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India and islands in the Caribbean.

We do not forget.

I would also remind you that we in Europe have also been targeted by terrorists - the UK by the IRA for almost 40 years and the Islamic terrorists have struck in Spain, France and here in the UK. My daughter was on a tube train behind the one detonated by a suicide bomber.

It isn't at all clear to me what this vote really means. Sigh. There is so very much that I just don't know

Great article--thanks for the education!

There's a great deal of insight in the comments made by all sides here.

I hope many Americans get to read a comment like the one made by Ishbel.

Thanks for the information.

Thanks for the info.. Good for the Irish (It seems ?) ... yes, the world needs badly to grow up, but at the rate some here seem to be NOT doing so, there will probably be much violence needed to teach some that lesson ... all of this polarization, most instigated by the right, will assure that it happens ... but it will be found to have been a complete waste, so unnecessary ... what goes around comes around, live by the sword die by the sword.

Ireland is the only EU nation allowing its citizens to vote on the EU Constitution. God Bless them for that!

Considering most Americans (and virtually all US politicians) don't understand our much shorter one, I can see why so many Europeans are afraid of something created by bureaucrats.

Odd how Jerry Peace Guy always says its non leftists inciting violence and problems...and of course Rory's ramblings about the inevitable rise of a united Europe because suddenly all Europeans are now alike. The lawyers and bureaucrats like that idea but somehow I doubt many of the people in those nations think so...

I am glad that Ireland is standing for what it wants- independence. It is important to unite as a country and vote on the EU constitution.

Thanks for sharing all this with us. Foreign affairs are very significant to all of us.

Charles, it is the conservative, farther righteous, that fear and hate, always supporting military and police intervention everywhere ... face the truth and grow up, accept the responsibility "righty" ... Peace is the way for peaceful people.

Kudos to them! I think it was an excellent move of the people!

Bent,

I think one of your first points was actually the best; that the EU may be inevitable, and that a constitution is not something someone takes on trust, but must be considered and voted on by all.

Economically speaking, I do think something like the EU will and must happen but as an elected body in which the electorate has a fair voice.

Sandre, your comment here makes the best sense. It's going to take some work to transform the EU into a democratic body that resembles anything like the US federal government, with all its unique and "living" Constitutional features like habeas corpus and checks and balances between the executive, legislative and judicial. Again, here would be another social feature to the US landscape which the US could help Europe with, once we can get past this Bush thing.

Both my husband and I have Irish ancestry, and the kids were raised with 2 sayings we firmly believed...1: Nobody promised us a good time - 2 - There are more horses ass's than horses....The Irish tend to get right to the point, and tend to be realists....I applaud all they have stood for in the past regarding their rights...and fairness with in their country - at a horrible expense...they do not need anything that even resembles the Bush administration...

• Al Smith - may the good Lord give him an extra set of wings - was holding forth at a press conference, when Westbrook Pegler, the acid-tongued columnist, called out" "Tell us all you know, Al - it won't take but a minute."
"I'll do better than that," retorted Al.
"I'll tell all we both know, and it won't take a second longer!"