Myth #9: "There are no atheists in foxholes"
This myth is akin to the idea that, when pressed with fear for their life, atheists will cry out to God. This idea is ridiculous in itself, but first I'd like to mention that even if ALL atheists converted before they died, it wouldn't make God real.
Aside from this fact, is it really true that this even happens? I'm sure it could be said that some nonbelievers convert on their deathbed, but it could also be said that some theists stop believing as well. This doesn't prove or disprove any deity; it's just a statement about human behavior.
It's also curious to note that when an atheist actually does convert, it's generally to the religion they were brought up in or that permeated the society they lived in. Indeed, "near-death experiences" often are suited to the specific religion of the person experiencing it. Christians might Jesus or Grandma, Buddhists might see peaceful light, Hindus might see Shiva or Ganesh, etc.
But let's get back to the main assertion that there are no atheists in foxholes. Can anyone prove this wrong? Do a web search right now and see if you can falsify that statement. Or, hit www.atheistfoxholes.org. Do I really need to say anything further?
I would like to remind you of Pat Tillman. Pat was a pro football player who turned down a million-dollar contract to fight in Afghanistan after September 11, 2001. He was killed on April 22, 2004 by "friendly fire", though the US military managed to hide that embarrassing fact for almost five weeks. Pat didn't believe in any gods, but his bravery did not waver. I don't want to go into the controversial details of his death; I only want to mention one awesome fact. At one point, his team was being fired upon. Most of the other men were too busy crying and praying to God to save them. But Pat Tillman was a "foxhole" atheist who knew that no God was going to come to their rescue. He yelled at his men to get up and keep their senses, and he got them out the mess. It's not hard to wonder what would have happened if the entire troop just laid there on the ground begging for Jesus to save them, is it?
Since it's relevant, I want to publicly thank the men and women who serve the idea of our free, secular nation, and who put their lives on hold or on the line to keep that idea alive.
Thank you.
-STA
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Comments: 48
You Barbara, are drawing conclusions with no basis for those conclusions. Hate is a universal emotion. Atheists are capable of hate, so are believers in god. All of us would prefer a more caring, peaceful place in which to live, but your self righteousness and your judgmental attitude about atheists is NOT conducive to a friendly exchange of opinions and beliefs. You seem to be the person who has "a lot of anger inside of yourself."
I would advise you to get to know someone before judging them as "angry".
I'm not targeting you. I'm replying to your comment...making a comment about what you said in your comment...nothing more.
"With all of these articles on atheism, you would get the idea someone has some kind of anger."
No.. not really. You "got that idea"...you drew that conclusion.
If you would care to have a conversation about your faith in god with me or with Tristan OR with most atheists...you would more than likely not see a resulting display of anger.
Atheism does not equal anger. It is not considerate nor is it accurate of you to insinuate or infer this.
Again...I have not targeted you nor have I meant to cause you to feel targeted. I was merely responding to your comment.
Not at all logical.
However, I sometimes wonder who I'm supposed to talk to during orgasms.
Bwahahaha...if I had nickel for every thumper who has said that to me upon my declaration of non-belief....well, I'd have better things to do than read this boring, droning, pious condescension. I am so sick of being told I'm 'angry' or 'hurt' or 'wounded' because I cannot accept the existence of their imaginary friend, I sometimes want to poke these people with a sharp stick. Oh wait...that would make me seem 'angry', wouldn't it? Oops!
(Tristan, I hope you are a member of my Pray for Atheism group and are submitting this series to it).
I like to keep my anger outside of myself. It's a lot more fun.
Tristan, I appreciate this well thought out and nicely written series.
To pray for the rest of us? To republish the bible a few more times?
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
To pray for the rest of us? To republish the bible a few more times?
Sandy Knauer
lol!!
**A question for you, Barbie poo, what if atheists already have the truth and the ones who believe in "god" are the ones who find out that he/she/it doesn't exist?**
el homo fabuloso
In their minds? - - Not possible! Will never happen!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Doyle ( aka The MAN of the 6 Senses ) C
G. Bush didn't spend his whole life avoiding sex - he could just never get any!
as a former minister who diligently researched and studied the myth of christianity and the other two deadly desert religions, judiasm & islam, i am here to say, "being a 'believer' was the most depressive, stressful and destructive time in my life."
when you've walked on both sides of the tracks, truth is a bit easier to find.
WHAT??? They aren't real?
I need a drink. I will be back later.
Atheism is not a religion. I write these articles to get the word out, because a lot of people are still clueless when it comes to reality.
I think if you ask most Christians about the effectiveness of trying to rub the genie out of the bottle while sitting in a foxhole, you'll find that very few if any will bite on your straw man example of statements like this that you used in your article...
I'm certain that people pray when they think that their lives are in jeopardy. Granted. That is because they are feeling fear and beginning to consider the post mortem options, and I would wager a hope that God would cut them a deal. I am not aware of any Christians who believe this is how it works though.
I know that religious people, when threatened with death, will call upon their deity to save them. My personal feeling is that if I were ever in that situation, I too might send up a prayer...I've been brainwashed for so many years that it's a tough thing to get free of. I hope I wouldn't, and I imagine I would come to my senses after a bit.
So, show me how that's a straw man. Does it work better like this (without the God reference?): It's not hard to wonder what would have happened if the entire troop just laid there.
But no, I'm more the type of person who believes that the duty is ours, but results are God's. I don't pretend to know how or why God does what He does other than I do know that He is in control from tip to tail. Oftentimes this presented a very difficult to accept face of God to many people. For example...
What about a mother praying for her as she cradles the infant in her arms, and the child dies as she is praying for the child?
It is absolutely horrifying to consider that God allows such things to occur, but they do. They do and it is a very real and uncomfortable look at what prayer is and isn't for. It certainly within the rights and abilities of every person to pray under any and all circumstances, but that doesn't mean that God will do or not do anything. I myself say often that rubbing the genie out of the bottle is superstitious rubbish, and will ever maintain that mindset. I do believe that He hears us and even responds to us while in prayer, but I don't believe that we can or will alter His will regardless of how dire our circumstances may be.
Anyhow, it's the straw man because you presented a scenario where theists beg to God to save them while failing to act. I don't know anyone who acts like that. Nobody as in not one person who has or would in the present or future.
I've been under fire a few times while serving in the 10th Special Forces Group in Iraq. I've been held at gunpoint by Kurdish rebels. I also believe in God, and what you described is an intellectually dishonest portrayal of how I reacted in all of the above scenarios. In fact, I relied upon my training and it was my training in particular that ensured that I walked out alive in all of the aforementioned circumstances. That and the fact that when I shoot at targets, we often have arguments about how many rounds actually hit the target because my shot group is typically the size of a nickel or quarter (depending on the distances involved) and it is impossible to count rounds that exited through the same hole. Anyhow, my point is that the picture you've painted is one in which folks who are trying to bargain with God for their lives may engage in, but it certainly isn't something that most Christians that I know, act.
We had a guy, an atheist, who loved poking at Christians and mocking God. He was a very unpleasant fellow to be near on jumps, as he delighted in telling Jesus jokes while waiting to jump out of the plane. Some people react to fear by cracking jokes, and it was probably what motivated him. In any case he injured himself pretty badly once, and he found out that Christians put all that aside when it mattered, despite the fact that he didn't when he thought the shoe was on the other foot. and this is more often than not the real story about faith under fire. The real story that plays itself out time and again is about character and honor, areas that good Christians are supposed to do very well in. Pat Tillman, an agnostic as I understand it, was a brave man who possessed great character and died in a tragic accident that could have happened to anybody Tristan. My personal opinion is that everyone needs to be objective about things like this and try to understand that sometimes it's just your time. The differences between you and I are two...
1. I've been there and done that several times in combat, and I reacted the same way each time. I did what I was trained to do like a machine, because I was trained to perform like a machine under pressure. Maybe you would, too. This is a big question mark though, and nobody knows how they will act until it actually happens.
2. I believe that death, although scary in many regards, is a door from this plane of existence to the next. Because I believe this, I can look at death with a natural degree of apprehension and pretty much leave it at that. I've practiced the scenario hundreds of times (e.g. parachuting, live fire exercises, etc.), and have learned to become more comfortable with something that all of us will someday face; death. You are again a big question mark. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing not. Very few people have had as much practice in this particular area than me and a handful of my comrades who do those things with me on a regular basis.
Now I will admit that I hear some strange words come out of people's mouths when they've just crapped their pants in fear. Usually Jesus and the f word intermingled in words that sounds like desperate prayers, but are in reality just what people sound like when they are absolutely horrified and unaccustomed to dealing with the notion that death may be just right around the next bend.
On your points:
1) You're probably right; if as highly trained as you, I might be able to keep my wits. I agree that nobody knows until the shit hits.
2) Your beliefs are akin to your training. It's a type of training -- a conditioning of the mind. I'm sure the 9/11 hijackers had the same sort of conditioning, and thus were not afraid to ride planes into buildings and die. Just because you feel strongly that you'll survive your own death, or that you'd really really like to, doesn't mean it'll happen and there's no reason to suggest that it will.
And since you mentioned it, I'd like to hear how you "know" that your God is in control.
The bible claims in a few places that someday that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord. But humor me for a moment here.
I lean towards a version of Christianity that embraces what is referred to as "universal reconciliation". The short version is that we believe that what Jesus accomplished through His death, burial and resurrection made Him the Savior of all mankind. Not in a subjective way, but literally. In fact I think it is the only way Christians can make sense of the faith if we are to believe that God is just, good and loving to all of the creatures He created. And I do realize that you don't believe this yourself, I'm just laying down what is behind what I am about to ask you.
If you found yourself standing before God and saw Jesus, assuming you knew it was Him, would you be willing to bend your knee to Him?
I think I know what your reaction will be, but I want to see the reaction though. In fact I'd be delighted if other atheists answered it to, as I suspect that all will answer the same. Agnostics I'm so sure about in that I think that it is possible, in fact very likely, that many people who consider themselves to be atheist are in fact agnostic.
So what do you suppose your reaction would be? And what would your reaction be if that meant that the fundamentalists where correct and you would face judgment and be cast into hell to endure an eternity of conscious torment?
Try not to read into why I'm asking because I really am interested in your honest answer. I'd offer to do the same for you, but you believe that the lights just go out and that's that so it would be impossible for me to tell you how I would react. But if you can think of something that would be useful, I'd be willing to answer any question of this nature as a token of good will and sincerity.
Now then, on to your question....would I bow and serve Yahweh if I knew that he existed. FUCK. NO. If the things written about him are true (and they supposedly are in your hypothetical, since he exists), I could never submit to such a monster. Drowning the entire earth?! The doctrine of eternal torture for finite crimes? Sacrificing himself to himself to make up for a rule he himself made? Legislating thought crime? Creation of Aggressive Childhood Leukemia, hemophilia, sickle cell anemia, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy, Parkinson's, E Coli? Making his existence appear to be nonexistent and then forever torturing those who don't have a fan club card? And doing such a good job of hiding that it allows for millions of gallons of bloodshed and hundreds of wars over who's right and who's wrong? Not lifting a finger to help in any way he could -- which should be omnipotently great? No Peter, I would rather let him do whatever he wanted with me than to suck your God's cock for all eternity.
But realize that I don't believe any of it is real. This was just a hypothetical.
Now, let me as YOU a hypothetical. What if you found yourself standing before the might Thor when you die. He tells you that because you didn't believe in him that he's now going to send you to Helheim, the underworld that is guarded by Modgud (the corpse eater whose breath is the frigid wind), and a guard dog named Garm, who has four eyes and is drenched in blood. What would you do?
If you don't mind, I'd like to make your example more realistic. I think we can all agree that paganism is off the table in terms of being a viable example to address. Let's look at some of the other major religions and apply the same question that you asked me. And by the way, I love the challenge!
So let's say that Muslims are correct and I find myself standing in front of Allah.
You now at first I was jolted by your response in bolded letters. I was thinking to myself that it wouldn't be wise to run with that attitude if you KNEW that it was in fact the God attached to all the objections you followed up with, that you were talking to like that. It would make you very brave, but not very wise I thought.
So what if I was standing in front of Allah, the God of suicide bombers and whose founder and leader raped little girls (Mohammed was a pedophile if you didn't know)?
You know I have to admit that I would probably react like you did, minus the expletives of course. I would look at it like you did, too! My issue and stopping point to keep my knee from bending to Allah would be that from the best I can tell, Allah is a pretty twisted diety (and I share your reaction of not believing that it can or would happen).
Here's why I asked Tristan...
I told you before, if you recall, that I am SOMEWHAT of a Christian Universalist. The short version is that I believe in what is referred to as universal reconciliation. One of the objections to this "theory" by most fundamentalists is that it paints God in a squishy light; they call it "sloppy agape" as a pejorative jab.
I asked because I kind of thought you would react like that, although you did treat me to a few expletives that I didn't expect. You get an A- for the shock value! Anyhow, I am guessing that most agnostic atheists would and will react as you did… with fury and rage. It confirms what I thought to be the truth, and actually helps me better understand how things will work out if my beliefs are correct.
The Hebrew God, YWHW, has an attribute which is describes as being incapable of unjust judgment. Also, His love must work in tandem with this perfect justice as well. Most Christians believe that they are forgiven for every sin they have committed, or will ever commit in the future and trust me… I know that it rubs folks like yourself quite raw when they say it out loud. It rubs me raw, but for different reasons to be perfectly blunt.
The philosophical dilemma I was trying to address was how that would work out. If the work of Christ on the cross was for all of mankind and if part of this drama plays itself out post mortem, which I believe it will, then folks like yourself need only to believe and bow down (as Christians do in life) when it is inescapably obvious, which of course makes a mockery of any sense of justice if I live a life of self sacrifice and service while you party like it's 1999 your entire life. I never thought it worked like that, nor could it if one were to consider the divine attributes I mentioned earlier. Which leaves me with how every knee will bow… Basically it will be the hard way after a very long and excruciating process. God loves all of mankind, therefore He does whatever must be done to bring every last person to eventual reconciliation to Him.
The result of all of this is that my theory is proven to be biblical by philosophy, which I expected it would, and my fundamentalist brethren are proven (in my personal opinion) to be proven wrong despite their attempts to ignore the philosophical error of what they are presenting and themselves believing.
By the way I'm guessing I would be just as stubborn as you seem to be. If it was Allah and not YHWH that I was standing before, I'm guessing that I would extend that Special Forces training into the hereafter and fight against him until I was either unable to fight anymore, or broken and refined by the fire.
A very interesting dialogue you and I are having. It was one of the more interesting things I've pondered in quite a while. Thank you for your candor Tristan, it was greatly appreciated!
And again, I appologize for my lack of brevity.
"aw, hell no! i ain't staying here with you and all these fuckin' crazy-ass christians! direct me to the elevator to hell please!!!"
and before i stepped into the elevator i would turn and say to jesus, "your dad is such an asshole!"
Re. the crazy Christians...
You know the most difficult part of my walk as a Christian is not learning how to cope with folks who attach four letter words to God, I expect that and honestly understand where you (all of you) are coming from. I get it. However what I don't get is how and what many of my brothers and sisters in the faith believe and even worse, how they act. The church is currently dealing with it's own self-centeredness issues, and is not doing a very good job of helping Christians (individuals) follow the Jesus of the bible.
In any case, hell is largely misunderstood by most folks, Christians not withstanding. In fact Christians sometimes get it more wrong than atheists in my opinion. Here's why...
The hell in English is a transliteration 4 different words in the original Hebrew and Greek. 3 of the 4 translate what we call hell as simply the grave. The 4th item is a word used to describe a state not a place, although it is (was actually) a place that the readers of the bible in the 1st century understood. The place is gehenna. It was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. So...
Wishing to go to hell is wishing to be chucked into the grave, or to be purified by fire. The teachings of the New Testament tell us that only those things in this life built upon the proper foundation, will survive the fire. They liken it to smelting silver and gold.
You destiny is eventually with God in heaven where you will know all of these things to be true and eventually learn to accept that the universe revolves around God, not us (individuals). Those who have accepted this truth in life will enter that place from a very different perspective, however Christ's work on the cross was to save all of mankind whether we thought we needed it or wanted to be saved or not. "It is finished" were His final words in this life, and it refers to the fact that He fixed that part of us that has been broken for over 6,000 years.
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