by
Carla G.
Member since:
September 19, 2006
Discussion Topic: Do Jews, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?
June 08, 2008 01:38 PM EDT
(Updated: June 08, 2008 05:07 PM EDT)
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The discussion topic for "Spirituality Explorers" this week is about God and came as a result of a discussion that I had with a Gather member who is a Christian. He said that Jews and Muslims do not worship the same god as Christians. Do you believe that there is only one god? Is this the same god worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims?
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Comments: 87
They all say that there is only one God and that is the only God that they worship, therefore, there can only be one God in those three religions and they all worship the same God.
actually these three religions are officially called the Abrahamic faiths,
we all can trace our religious heritage back to Abraham.
In "other" words, God is (1) ... in descending order are then gods, of which Christ is a spiritual one as is Satan ... below that are humans as the x's who IF they relate to a "g" god without the proper differential understandings of those relationships, they are missing out on the truth of God.
The Tree or the ornaments on the Tree?
All religions, even the so called "polytheistic" religions acknowledge the One out of which all emanate. The aspects and Names of God and the hosts of being that represent the One and stand for it are all creatures and existences that emanate out of the One.
The old Egyptian religion is an example. The "Gods" were divine principles. So Isis is a Divine Principle. In my own encounters with this Principle it seems to be a Being and I feel is an Angel... Archangel. In the end what are we? it is all a mystery. We are God's mystery and He is our Mystery. Those are my thoughts and experience anyway.
Good question. As a kid in the Church of England and as a student of a remarkable priest I was taught that the God of the Jews, Christians and of Islam, was the same God. In fact our priest went further and taught us about all the other major religions.
He really believed in the message of Jesus in a broader sense. "In my Father's house there are many mansions." "I have many sheep but they are not all of this Fold" ... and Jesus was a Jew. He is accepted by Islam along with Moses and Abraham. These traditions are of one line, all followers of the "Book". Blessings, Isis
Oh Peter you are so right! laughing here... good chuckle...
I did not say that I believe that there is more than one God. My question actually originated from a discussion that I had with another Gather member who told me that Jews and Muslims worship a different God than Christians.
My belief is that there is one God, called by different names, but still the One God.
I happen to believe that in all three instances they are worshipping the same diety, Christian, Jew and Muslim. Now whether I believe in that same diety is another question.
Thomas, I really think it's unChristian of you to determine whether or not someone else is a Christian! Carla was asking about God - not Jesus.
Practices? Ceremonies? Holidays? Different, sure.
I think it is the people who believe we worship a different God who truly are worshipping a different God. It is arguable, in fact, that we worship a different God because of the way we worship. But if you have ever read Bruce Olson's autobiographical works about his time with the Motilones, they do not worship in any way that creates a semblance between them and the American Christian Churchgoers. Does that mean they worship a different God? No.
As Anne Lamott said "If the God you believe in hates all the same people you do, then you know you've created God in your own image."
Too many Christians, especially in America, do not hold true to Christ's teachings. Christian means follower of Christ. Christ comes from the Greek Christos, which means the same as the Hebrew "Messiah", the annointed Messenger of God. If we follow Christ, we must follow ALL his teachings, not just a select few.
Many Christians spread hatred, of other denominations, of other races, even of other religions. That is not what our Lord would want. The Gather member you spoke about seems to one of those Christians, the type who say "If you don't believe and worship EXACTLY as I do, then you're wrong and are DAMNED to HELL." I don't condone that type of Christianity.
I like the beleif of Deloris Wright,
I would go a little further than merely tying Judaism, Christianity and Islam together as worshippers of the one God. In fact, I would go further than merely saying that all the recognized major religions of history also worshipped the same God (even those with a pantheon of Gods). I believe that all human spiritual expressions are an attempt to worship that same, and only God, going right back to those nameless Neanderthals who buried their dead with flowers.
What has changed over the millenia is not God Himself, but rather our perception of Him, of His nature and of how to express our understanding and how to worship. And I think this process is ongoing and will continue into our future.
Richard Dawkins, the fundamentalist guru of atheism, says in his book "The God Delusion" (and I'm going to paraphrase from memory here), that we are all atheists when it comes to belief in, for example, Jupiter or Odin. Those "gods" that were once worshipped by peoples of past ages have now been discarded on history's scrap heap. To him, those who worship God differ from Dawkins only in that he goes one "god" further than them in his atheism.
However, I think that all of these ancient "gods" were merely human attempts to define the almighty Creator they perceived in the world around them. Who knows what those ancient Neanderthal's image of God was? All we know is that they imagined an after life or else they would not have devised ritual means of disposing of their dead.
How different is modern religion from these ancient "myths"? Look at Christianity for example. It is monotheistic by its own definition, but imperfect in its expression of that concept. While there may be only one God, according to Christianity, there is the concept of the Trinity, which both does and does not divide God into three aspects. In addition, there are hosts of angels of varying rank, who clearly have super-human godlike powers. Some branches of Christianity also have saints, to whom the faithful often pray for their intervention. That implies at least access to or influence on the power of God. Is this not a form of polytheism?
To my mind, and in my beliefs and according to the doctrine of my faith, there is only one God, eternal and supreme. His nature, however, is so far beyond the ability of my limited human intelligence to fully grasp that whatever my concept of Him is, whatever image I hold in my mind of Him, it is incomplete and likely inaccurate in some respect. I also think that this is true of all other human beings: that their image of God is incomplete and likely inaccurate in some respect.
There for, it is incumbent on me (and I believe on all of us) to respect everyone's perception of what that Being is and how He manifests Himself among us. It is all too likely that someone else's image of God will contain some portion of the picture that I am missing, and is there for sacred even if I don't get it or agree with it
As far as expressing our beliefs, so long as this is done with the Golden Rule in mind (present in all the faiths of the world and referred to by one ancient Hebrew commentator as "The whole of the law, the rest is mere commentary.") then we should respect and defend it.
Many Jews do not believe that Christians & Muslims believe in the same God.
From my conversation with Muslims & reading abt them.. they calim to believe in the God of Abraham.. which the God of Adam, Moses & Jesus. they even have the same concept of Adam & Eve...
In other words they all believe in the same God. It's just that the precedent religion has a problem accepting the latter ones.
Jack, when I think of the many faces of God, I think of the people that I encounter that are an expression of that divine presence.
And Sunaura, I have moved more toward this idea of God as well. I have heard some say that within us all is the spark of God, but to me it is more that in each cell is that power and presence that is God.
I have also heard the analogy that we are drops of water in the ocean that is God. I like that too.
There are many God/desses. There is a universal spirit energy that is the essence of all of creation, which manifests physically and spiritually.
The God of Abraham interacts with individual human beings, is aware of what we are aware of ourselves (and more), considers us His children, has "feelings" and intentions and preferences, and directly caused the Books to exist and be preserved. He has a definite "plan" which He is carrying out, and will give eternal life to those who He deems worthy to live eternally in His universe. His judgement is impeccable, fair, and final.
Other sorts of gods are not significant, if real in any sense other than human imagination, and lead folks into mischief and denial of Him. I find it perfectly conceivable that people of other religions worship God, and people were worshiping Him well before the Books were written. He is real, was real, and really relates to His children. Doesn't mean this or that specific custom or belief is Valid or anything, but He is not "exclusive" in any sense, and loves all His kids.
What are you doing with Jesus? Who do you say that He is?
-Mark
Well, I say he was a manifestation of God, and my Lord and Saviour, but, If Jesus is "the great divide", then who is he referring to here? ;
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
At least one side of the "great divide" is not so clear cut as might first appear to some, would you not agree?
Is Jesus just a way for us to do spiritual gymnastics and thereby to glorify ourselves or our religion or our denomination? Do we invoke His name to glorify our own?
Or is He, indeed, our Lord and Savior? Is He our only hope?
-Mark
I have no objection to discussing such matters, but not under any pretense that you or I speak for God, or the Messiah. We are but humble servants, yes? I am quite prepared to demonstrate where in scripture I derive my beliefs, without "private interpretation".
Please first answer my question regarding the one "side" of the "great divide" you speak of. It seems most obvious from the words of my Lord which I cited, that it is not a simple thing we wonder at, no? It seems MANY will find on that "day", that they have been misunderstanding something rather critical about "sides", yes?
Jesus said, "Depart from me I never knew you. . . "
What does this mean? What is the biblical meaning of this verb 'to know'? I think this is critical in the passage you cited above. How is it that we understand any of the things of God? If you can confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - if you can believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved. Isn't this the continental divide?
"Oh how I love Jesus, because He first loved me. . ."
-Mark
" If you can confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord - if you can believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved."
It certainly does not seem so, for Jesus himself said just prior;
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven . . .
And the subsequent declaration I quoted speaks of people that clearly called him Lord, and have clearly acted on their belief in him, even so far as to have done "many wonderful works" in his name. It is just too irrational to think these are people simply making up a history of themselves on the spot, hoping Christ doesn't have any way of knowing they never said and did what they are then claiming. This is after the "tribulation", after his return, every knee has bowed already. This is the judgment of the Lords day . . . they KNOW he has a record at that point. The context demands that we realize these are people that have "confessed" him Lord, yet, it was not enough.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my father, which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therfore whoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock
So; No, not all who say some certain words and think some certain thoughts at some point, will make "the cut", I am quite sure. One must DO what he speaks of in the things he says. So obviously, one would be wise to figure out what he is saying we ought to do. Well, we have his words speaking the actual basis for being "separated" to the right side of HIS divide, when he actually does the dividing. And there is no mention at all of having confessed him Lord, or thought this or that about he, God, or the Book. Just that one was compassionate in their DOING in regard to their fellows.
Naturally, if one sees him as the Son of God, they have a great incentive for DOING what he spoke of as right. This in itself is a great gift, a thing we ought to be extremely grateful for, but not proud of in any way. It's a gift, not a ticket to eternity, me thinks.
you write:
So; No, not all who say some certain words and think some certain thoughts at some point, will make "the cut", I am quite sure. One must DO what he speaks of in the things he says. So obviously, one would be wise to figure out what he is saying we ought to do.
Here's the rub. . .
Is it that we must DO something to make the cut - or is that the DO-ING is the proof that we're already on the team?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
Salvation is conveyed to those whom the Father has elected and that before time began. (Ephesians 1) God's love and justice are satisfied by the sacrificial death of His Son on Calvary's cross to atone for the sins of His people. This salvation is applied to His chosen vessels by the Holy Spirit effectually and unswervingly.
If that life principle is conveyed you will see the CONFESSING and the BELIEVING and the DO-ING - the whole package. You're right when you state that this is no basis for pride as what do we have that we haven't received?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Again, "I never knew you" - What does this mean?
"ye that work iniquity" is prophesying and casting out devils and performing wonderful works to be considered 'iniquity'? Could you build a school or a hospital in India or give alms to the poor and have it considered 'iniquity'?
Interesting. . .
-Mark
Please slow it down a bit, I'm just a human.
"Is it that we must DO something to make the cut - or is that the DO-ING is the proof that we're already on the team?"
I already gave you the words of our Lord; Not all who call him Lord will make it, only those who do the Father's will. The matter is settled for me. Any "interpretation" that does not conform to those words, I highly suspect.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Well of course, all life is the gift of God, no one can possibly grant themselves eternal life, or any other form of life. He says right there that it is through faith, but not ours, rather Christ's. Through him we are saved, and without him, none could be. And none could be but for the Grace of God. We do not save ourselves.
"Salvation is conveyed to those whom the Father has elected and that before time began."
Well, it says before the foundations of the "world", and that word in the Greek does not imply all of time. It implies the present order of things. It also does not say ALL are so predestinated. If you read ahead a bit, to 1:12, you will note that Paul says;
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom you also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
The "we" he speaks of as being predestined, he clearly designates as those who first trusted in Christ, and he gives a perfectly plausible reason God would do that. He then speaks of a "you", that he does not speak of as predestined, but rather, being convinced by hearing the gospel.
One glance at 1:8 and 9, should tell you he is not speaking of just anybody that confesses Christ Lord;
Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence.
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself
He's talking about some very informed folks, not every believer.
Let me ask you this:
If you do belong to Him, if you have heard the Gospel of God and responded in faith - what sets you apart from those who have heard the Gospel but haven't responded?
Are you smarter than them?
Do you possess more spiritual acumen?
Is your heart more capacious?
Are you, in a word, superior?
What makes the difference?
-Mark
It MEANS that, " ... You, fella, had the exoteric, the lesser understanding of the parables, the milk rather than the meat of the higher, deeper, all encompassing esoteric understanding ... therefore you have been misguided and even wrong in your life of actions therefrom ... you were NOT following my INtended advice .... you did NOT REALLY know me, therefore you are NOT one of MY people ... sorry, and too late now, I warned you about that ... ".
IMnsHO.
"What makes the difference?"
Well, I can but hope that I have done well thus far, and would never count myself assured of anything. I only know that I did not listen with an open mind for many years, and then I did. I came to realize that no matter what I did, or thought, or said, I simply did not know. I realized there was only one way I could know, with anything even resembling surety, that any God existed. That I was simply in no position to determine such a thing myself.
I could arrange the thoughts and images that came into view when I pondered and ruminated about such things any way I liked, but they would never be anything more than echos and rumors I was farting around with. I could kid myself into feeling the vague semblance of believing just about anything, depending on what I happened to find plausible at any given moment. But that was clearly not believing, as one believes in real life.
I didn't have to do any of that conjuring to believe the sun was shinning in my eyes, or that oncoming traffic was dangerous to steer into, or that my fingers could grasp things. The whole of my intelligence, whatever that was, acted on various things IT somehow "believed" without question. If I stood before a great precipice, it would not matter if I imagined this or that possibility, it would refuse to heed my wavering dream-like images, and command me to knock it off, and pay attention to a reality it considered far more real than what I could "generate" in my mind.
I did not want to "believe" in the "wishful thinking" sense, in the self generated way that one believes in what they cannot actually see real evidence of. I wanted to know, as we know that we are awake, that we are walking, that we must eat and drink and breath. I wanted the whole of my intelligence to witness something in reality, IT'S reality, which I could not provide myself, no matter what I thought or imagined.
So I asked. I didn't believe there was a God, but IF there was, I thought; "God then must hear me if I ask for real evidence, not born of imagination." If nothing could hear me, and respond, I would never BELIEVE in the real life sense. So, I asked. And to my utter amazement, He responded. In the "real" world, things began to happen which could only be accounted for if He was messing with the actual physical universe, in ways that directly related to what I was experiencing internally.
Things like someone at work whom I had never discussed anything "religious" with, and did not know I even cared about such matters; walking up to me and saying they felt it would be a good idea to discuss something in the Book. And that something turned out to be what I had been reading of the night before.
Or having a troublesome thought about what I had heard somewhere regarding what the Book said of some matter, and not knowing where to look in it, just opening it up "at random", and beginning to read at the first words my eyes landed on, and seeing the exact matter I had been pondering discussed in the precise way I was wondering about. A dozen times in a row.
Or being struck by something I read in the Book, and just not understanding why it caught my attention, why it drew my mind, when I already resolved the thing it spoke of to my own satisfaction long ago. And then someone asking me within a few hours about that precise aspect of life, and them responding blankly to my own insights, but reacting strongly when I tossed in what I had just read from the perspective the Book approached it.
Now, I was, and am, a rather skeptical person by nature . . . but after several weeks of this stuff going on . . . it stopped mattering what I thought or imagined; The whole of my intelligence just did not care, IT believed. And I can generate doubt now, the same way I used to generate "belief" of the intellectual variety . . . but I cannot generate disbelief. No more than I can step off a high precipice.
So, what did I DO ? Nothing much, that's for sure. I just asked.
And Debra, yes, the relationship with God is what is often different and, to me, what is most important.
Your testimony is compelling. I mean that sincerely.
you finish with:
So, what did I DO ? Nothing much, that's for sure. I just asked.
What prompted you to ask?
-Mark
Thanks for taking a stab!
you write:
It MEANS that, " ... You, fella, had the exoteric, the lesser understanding of the parables, the milk rather than the meat of the higher, deeper, all encompassing esoteric understanding ... therefore you have been misguided and even wrong in your life of actions therefrom ... you were NOT following my INtended advice .... you did NOT REALLY know me, therefore you are NOT one of MY people ... sorry, and too late now, I warned you about that ... ".
you did NOT REALLY know me, therefore you are NOT one of MY people
Jesus didn't say "you didn't know me therefore. . ." He stated, "I never knew you"
Big difference. . .
-Mark
God is unknowable and anyone who thinks he/she knows what God is, is either terribly naive or simple delusional. Those who think that Jesus is God, for instance, and imagine that by thinking of Jesus they know what God is, are delusional.
But John quotes the Master saying:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
John 14:6-9
With all due respect Donald. . .
-Mark
Well, I thought about your question quite a bit, as to why I asked, and I'm really not sure. I can remember it was soon after a rather troublesome time for me, in various ways. And it was during a sort of lull, from pressing demands on my time and attention, but what happened during those several weeks was so "revolutionary' to everything I had previously considered possible or important, that my memories of what it was like before, became almost incidental. Almost like the memory of a dream, with no real significance to me on a personal level.
I do remember responding to a "believer" I knew as a friend before then, when he said he was surprised that I "found" God, and asked me if I believed in the devil, and I said; "I believed in the devil, before I believed in God, he chased me to Him". And what I meant was that I had met a few people who were just too intent on doing malicious things, too callous and prideful, to fit within my "worldview". When they ought, by all that I understood of human nature, to have responded favorably to well intentioned efforts to make some situation better for everyone, they did just the opposite. When they could see that something worthy was at risk, which they had the power to aid or at least ignore, they intentionally seized the opportunity to crush it, and drive home to those that struggled for that worthy thing, the futility of their efforts. The relative ease of destroying, compared to the profound difficulties of creating.
I had always been rather optimistic, and saw good in people, and believed that society was moving "forward"; but I could see a great darkness in some people, and I could see that "something" was working against enlightenment and harmony. I could vaguely see it in history too, a relentless thing, waiting for the moment when progress seemed just within reach, hope seemed about to be justified, reason about to overcome selfish impulse . . . and then would come the assassin's bullet, the unbearable demand of the victor, the cruel deed that rekindled the ancient feud.
I think it was beginning to dawn on me that we were not going to make it, that the good, was not going to triumph in the end. And I had no place to take shelter from that storm. I could not cope with the Machiavellian world we seemed destined to inhabit, where my precious ethics, and compassion, and honor, were just so much pointless denial. I think I was sensing myself preparing to surrender, to turn toward the pursuit of personal ambition and gratification . . . and I was giving God one last chance to stop me, just in case . . .
. . . I never knew you, depart from me, ye that work iniquity
In the Greek, the word is 'ginosko', a prolonged form of a prime verb; to know (in the absolute sense). allow, be sure, understand
I think he's saying they are phonies, insincere, not genuine.
you write:
I could not cope with the Machiavellian world we seemed destined to inhabit, where my precious ETHICS, and COMPASSION, and HONOR, were just so much pointless denial.
Could you not substitute for ethics, compassion, and honor - prophesying and casting out devils and performing wonderful works?
-Mark
I think he's saying they are phonies, insincere, not genuine.
Who do you know that is not a phony? who is not at times insincere? who is always genuine?
Scripture states there is none righteous, no not one. . .
When Jesus said I never KNEW you, was the King of glory, the omniscient One, the Discerner of all hearts implying that he did not understand what that person was all about? Consider these words by John MacArthur on the biblical meaning of the verb 'to know':
Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreKNEW, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . . also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
Ephesians 2:8 suggests that even our faith is a gift from God.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."
Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreKNOWledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreKNOWledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreKNEW, He also predestined." And if divine foreKNOWledge simply means God's KNOWledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.
But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreKNOWledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreKNOWledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word "KNOW," in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreKNEW" (Romans 8:29). That means He KNEW them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.
Oh how I know Jesus, because He first knew me or
Oh how I love Jesus, because He first loved me. . .
-Mark
I dont know what each and every religion believes, as they have to right to believe as they choose.
"Could you not substitute for ethics, compassion, and honor - prophesying and casting out devils and performing wonderful works?"
Not at all, the one are foundations for actions, and the other actions themselves. It is the part you left out; ". . . in thy name . . . ", which could be "substituted" for the basis upon which one acts. What you are asking here, is to me the equivalent of what Satan asks God at the beginning of the Book of Job;
"Doth Job fear God for nought?
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face."
Satan was saying that Job was not really good, but merely doing good for the reward it got him. Or as Plato put it, merely "in the company of the good". Taking the winning side, more than actually being devoted to doing what is right. The "summer soldier", the "sunshine patriot" so to speak.
I tell you the truth; it did, and does, pain me to see cruelty, distress me to see haughtiness, anger me to see needless suffering, provoke me to see reason defamed. I do not love Jesus because he loved me. I love him because he loves order, and righteousness, and integrity. If he did not, I would not "know" him. I would not follow him. He is my Lord BECAUSE he loves the good, and eschews evil, not because his in the winning side. If I have no place in his kingdom to come, I will still serve him, gladly, joyfully, for his is the way and the light.
The words of John are ended. (in this matter)
"Scripture states there is none righteous, no not one. . ."
Well, not at all times, obviously. All fall short, all sin, all betray the goodness God built into us at times. But some struggle, and some do not. He counts that struggle as victory. His Mercy is our salvation.
On this "predestination" matter, I cannot understand why you don't see what to me is obvious;
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate . . .
Well, do you really believe He did not know everyone, in the non-absolute sense? Of course He did, He made all souls. So will all souls be saved? Well of course not, that is obvious. The word is clearly being used in the "sure" sense, in the "aproved" sense, not the "familiarity" sense. He "knows" everyone, if we are speaking of acquaintanceship only.
. . . to become conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren . . . ;
Again, he gives the reason right there; To establish the Word, so it would come to us potent medicine, and not just some obscure ancient writings. If it was not established as an actual, effective, respected "religion", we would not be in any position to be held accountable for overlooking it's authenticity. It HAD to become what it is in the world, Jesus HAD to become the most revered name on earth. The challenge he presented to me, HAD to be blatant, and impossible to not notice.
I utterly reject the "Calvinist" doctrine of complete predestination, it makes absolutely no sense to me, and not the least of the reasons is that GOD HIMSELF often speaks of there being options presented to people. He SAYS in no uncertain terms, that it's up to people to do as He asks, what is right, or not. He LITERALLY says He will carry out, or not carry out, various harsh "judgments", depending on what those He intends to act against DO. That's not going anywhere. He don't lie.
You're a wonderful man. Who are we going to thank for this?
The moon is a wonderful luminary, but if it were not first illuminated by the sun, it would throw no light at all. . .
Thanks for the chit-chat brother.
-Mark
And so are you, THANK GOD !
Take care,
John
egad! ;)
and while they do have the same "godhead," they each have a unique group of prophets, messiahs and wise men. (that is not too say that they do not share common myths as well. ie; abraham, moses)
i think the most intriguing part of the deadly desert three is their great disdain for one another. but 'hate' is at the center of those three wicked myths. getting back to the joke about catholics and lutherans not worshiping the same god- i have heard a many, many 'loving-christians' completely BASH catholics to the ground and vice-versa. try talking to a holy roller about the jews and musilms and try to find that all brotherly love!
how funny that these three regard each other as heathens and yet they all come from the same 5800 year old religion... judiasm.
christians that claim they worship a different god?! hmmm? what denomination? are we talking like hardcore crazies such as church of god (clev/tenn) or those lovely church of god of prophecy nuts- you know, snakes & poison? while they do say that their god is different than that of the jews and muslims, they really are just doing the chrisitan elitist-thing... "we worship our god the right way- which means you worship wrong and therefore are not worshiping OUR god." see what i mean?
john & mark are funny.... pwahahahaha.
-Mark
These two entities are NOT the same person!
This is painfully obvious to anyone familiar with the Bible and the Koran.
There is such a marked difference in the major doctrines of both books that the same person could not have possibly inspired or authored both of them.
Jews worship the same God as Christians do but not according to the full revelation of who He is.
Unfortunately, they have limited themselves to worshipping Jehovah according to the old and outdated covenant which God established through the prophet Moses because they have rejected Yeshua (Jesus) as the promised Messiah of the new covenant promised through the prophet Jeremiah.
For those who're interested I just published an in-depth article addressing this very topic called: Do Christians, Jews & Muslims Worship The Same God?
Here's the link: http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977387380
however, i will agree that the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament and the god of the koran are all very, very different in their personalitiesbut are the same god or 'god-head' or 'father-god'... you get my meaning. (it's early and i still haven't gotten throught this first cup o' joe.)
to say that jews and christians and muslims do not worship the same god is like saying that catholics and pentecostals and mormons do not worship the same god. while the catholic god is very, very different from the mormon god which is very, very different from the pentecostal god, they are still the same god.
Personally I am a Christian - I have come to see it this way:
God approached Abraham and made a covenant with Him which led to the forming of Israel. All other nations and religions were on the outs in this time period - God was primarily and exclusively the God of Israel. I don't think this means that He ignored the cries of those in need around the world, but as far as being available to lead them as a people, Israel were His. This left room open for violence, war and legitimate hatred.
Jesus delegitimized hatred. Jesus came to usher in a new age, where the divisions of country were wiped away and humanity were all invited into covenant with God - we could all choose Him. So, everyone was a potential child of God, and in that way, violence, war and hatred no longer had any place. Jesus brought out 'Love' as king of the day - love wins and love legitimately was the only right response of God's people to other people in the world. "Love your enemy." Jesus teachings liberate the oppressed. "In Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free" - All the isms of the day, sexism, racism, classism were immasculated under the love of God. Of course some people in history did things in Jesus name that oppressed others, but I think it could be said that just because you say you are a duck, doesn't mean you are a duck - you're not. The same can be said for false Christians.
The God of Israel and the God of Christianity is the same.
600 years later Mohamed emerges. He has familiarity with Christianity and Judaism, but doesn't buy into either of them. He meets with an angel in a cave. This angel gives Mohammed a book chapter by chapter that Muslims call the Qur'an/Koran. With this information Mohamed rises up to lead a military force that demanded compliance or death. Mohammed was a war Lord who wiped out cities full of Jews. Islam then and now (in various places in the world) threatens death if you disagree with their claims that Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet.
A friend of mine is a convert from Islam. He believes that the angel in the cave was Satan. I tend to agree. Especially looking at Islam both historically, but also at the Qur'an. Their book encourages murder, violence, racism, sexism, classism... If the angel in the cave was Satan, Islam makes all kinds of sense - Satan was trying to undo the freedom that Jesus brought to the world.
I believe the primary influence in Islam is Satan. I believe Muslims are people like you and me and they have been duped and pressured into or born into Islam. I believe God hears their prayers when they call out to Him with sincerity (as is the case for all of humanity), but I believe God wants them to be free of Islam. Islam does not lead to freedom. It leads to fear based thinking, highly influenced by evil.
Do Jews, Christians and Muslims Worship the Same God?
Muslims don't.
If Allah was God, then Christians would technically be out of date and irrelevant.
It might be that Muslims hold so specifically to the name Allah because, when we are faced with the reality of things at the end of time, it will be heart breaking for Muslims as Satan gloats over them, saying, 'I'm not God, I go by many names, but I'm not God. You called me Allah.'
Muslims recite Satanic verses and offer these words to Allah - Satan.
I'm just going to emphasize one more time that Muslims are people, just like me and you - not evil. They belong to a religion that is a trap set to keep them from being free and from living in abundance through the love of Christ. Islam is evil, not Muslims. God loves them just as He loves all of us.
The Bible warns of Satan disguising himself as an angel of light.
Hundreds of years later Islam starts with an angel of light.
Even later Joseph Smith Emerges claiming to have encounter two beings of light who said they were Jesus and God... and the book of Mormon is conveyed via some stones hidden in a hat that required a "seer stone" in order to read them. This group is called the Later Day Saints/Mormons.
Both religions are off shoots of Christianity & Judaism.
I don't know as much about Later Day Saints as Islam, so I won't comment further about if they worship the same God... I just think its an odd similarity and that the Bible warns that Satan will appear to people as an angel of light in order to deceive them... and these two religions emerge in that specific way - founders of these religions had access to scripture - especially Joseph Smith - neither of them tried to hide this aspect of what they were presenting. If this isn't a big red flag on both counts, I don't know what is.