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by Pat Bertram
Member since:
October 4, 2007

How Important is Setting? -- Writing Discussion 21

June 18, 2008 11:47 AM EDT
views: 97 | comments: 132
 

Characters interact with the setting as much as they do with the plot and other characters. In fact, setting can be used as another character, one that is implacable and without reason. Like a character, the setting can have scars, weaknesses, moods, even a personality.

The setting should be integral to the story. It needs to be more than a backdrop for or an introduction to the events. A static description adds nothing to the story's purpose. The setting should not be any old place, but a unique place that has meaning for the character. Setting can work for or against the character, but either way, it must be dynamic, otherwise it's filling space.

Setting can create a mood. It can suggest the character's motives. It can predestine character in the same way we are all creatures of our environment. A person who grew up in the shadow of mountains is different from someone born by the sea. A child living in a mansion is different from a child of the streets.

Setting can help move plot along. Whenever things slow down, the introduction of a real or perceived change in the setting can deepen the character's conflicts. Maybe the character sees things he never noticed before; maybe those familiar things now seem menacing. Or perhaps the weather can take a disastrous turn.

Every description of a place should have a memorable quality that hints at the story's meaning. In Story, Robert McKee wrote, "The irony of setting vs. story is this: the larger the world, the more diluted the knowledge of the writer, therefore the fewer his creative choices and the more clichéd the story. The smaller the world, the more complete the knowledge of the writer, therefore the greater his creative choices. Result: an original story without clichés."

Do you think setting is important?
How do you set your stage?
How does your setting affect your character and your character's actions?
How do your characters perceive the setting?
Does anything about your setting suggest the character's inner conflicts and desires?
Do you make your setting an integral part of your story?
Does your setting predestine your characters?
Does your setting have a personality? Scars? Weaknesses? Moods? Emotional impact?

The group No Whine, Just Champagne will try to answer these questions during our Live Chat on Thursday, June 19 at 9:00pm ET. Hope to see you there!

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Comments: 132

Vivian A. Jun 18, 2008, 12:32pm EDT
Oh Goody! Setting, what a great topic Pat.
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Patricia J. Jun 18, 2008, 1:32pm EDT
Setting is extremely important. Have a great discussion.
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A. F. Stewart Jun 18, 2008, 3:37pm EDT
Setting can represent theme and metaphor, as well.
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Marge H. Jun 18, 2008, 6:29pm EDT
I definitely need to be spending more time on settings. Thank you for the information.
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Sharon B. Jun 19, 2008, 1:15pm EDT
thanks for the info
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Marta Stephens Jun 19, 2008, 2:34pm EDT
Great topic, Pat. I'll try to make it this week!
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John Philipp Jun 19, 2008, 2:36pm EDT
Excellent topic, well laid out, Pat.

Seems I'm always out doing something on Thursday, but then I'm 3 hours behind.
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Angela A. Jun 19, 2008, 2:45pm EDT
Setting is very important. That's why I always post the setting of my story to see if it catches the readers eye. Or if I need to work on it and make it better. It makes a person want to read or move on to something else. I need to work on my settings very carefully. I have noticed that my settings are either too detailed or don't add enough mood. And, I am glad that others have pointed that out.
Thanks for posting about this important topic.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:00pm EDT
Is anyone out there yet?
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:03pm EDT
Hi, Deborah!
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:04pm EDT
This will be an excellent discussion, Pat. Such a great subject to get into.

For me, setting is crucial. I believe it is important for the reader to "see" where the character lives/works/is lurking before we get too far into each scene.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:05pm EDT
Hello Pat! Really good article you've presented. You always provide such insight--this time from Robert McKee. His "Story" is an excellent manual of how to craft great writing.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:08pm EDT
I usually get depressed when I read books on how to write, but McKee's book really interested me. Such good insights. Made me rethink a lot basics.

One of my books takes place in Denver during an massive epidemic. I wanted a different backdrop for the story of my character's growth.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:09pm EDT
Taking time out to read my own article. I always have one in draft so that I have something to post in case no one else wants to host, and I wrote this one a couple of weeks ago.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:12pm EDT
I'll bet your apocalyptic novel has some pretty amazing settings. I bet you need to create a whole new world and really put the reader there to experience what your character is going through. Has it proven to be quite the challenge?
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:16pm EDT
In a way it's easier for me to describe something new than to try to describe something that exists. If it's new, it is whatever the words say it is. If it already exists, you run the risk of not connoting what you want to connote.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:17pm EDT
The one element lacking in beginning writers is the lack of setting. I tell the newbies I critique for all the time, "You must set the scene." Although it can be compelling to start a chapter with dialogue, to me, putting the character/s into his "atmosphere" adds much more intrigue. Also, the reader needs to be reminded from time to time where the characters are. Location is very important and setting the scene is imperative to keep the reader flipping the pages.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:19pm EDT
Hi Pat, Hi Deborah, I usually visualize the setting, action and characters as I write. It really helps me get into the story. And I like to use the setting to enhance the suspense. I like how Dean Koontz works with setting. In his novel The Bad Place he creates some very eerie settings that his characters get swept up in. It's like 3D Technicolor writing. I love it.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:20pm EDT
Yes, that's where the research comes in. I try not to implement too much detail for fear of "info dump" but if it's important to the character and his/her motivation I'll go all out. Often if I mention something within the setting it is for foreshadowing (a clue integral to the story the reader will find out later in the story).
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:20pm EDT
Hello Nancy! I agree, visualizing the setting is key. I type what I "see" as the movie plays out in my mind.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:22pm EDT
Great article Pat B! I love this topic.

My MS is a gothic romance. One of the important aspects of that kind of novel is that the house, the setting, almost becomes another character in the story. It's introduced right in the opening paragraphs, this way:

"How could this castle bear the prosaic name of Tremayne Hall? Even in the dark, its immense size loomed, perched on the edge of the cliff like a bird of prey. At least four stories rose above her, and stretched out to her left and right from the central portion. Rounded towers punctuated the wings at either end, topped with crenellations biting like a giant's teeth into the night sky. A single light glimmered in a window, high in the tower to her left. A small bit of light shone through the stained glass panes framing the massive door before her. Otherwise, the house was dark. "

I wanted to set the mood for the reader right up front. Even the house's name, Tremayne, is an "in" joke. It's Cornish for "house of stone". It's also the hero's name, an oblique reference to his cold, hard heart.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:25pm EDT
Hi, Nancy!

I do overall setting better than setting a scene since I don't like long descriptions. Also I'm better at mood than setting because I don't see pictures in my mind. But I'm learning!

I also like the idea of setting as character. Most of my characters have to fight the environment as well as human villains and themselves.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:26pm EDT
Great opening paragraph, Pat S. Extremely visual and mood invoking. And I love it when writers actually research for names that will enhance the piece. Kudos to you!
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:26pm EDT
Yes Pat S., setting can be like another character. I've read a lot of books where it's man against man and man against nature. Nature being the setting. It can also be an obstacle to the MC or a help. That castle in your story sounds like a living thing and definitely sets a mood.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:27pm EDT
Hi, Pat S. I never thought of that, but in Gothic novels like Rebecca, the houses always have a name, which helps personify them.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:30pm EDT
Setting is also a really 'fun' thing. Some of the novels I'd read about Vegas are really interesting. The different takes that each writer has on the city seem limitless. I also like setting in different cities, places I'd not normally go, yet the writer immerses me in them. It's a lot of fun and takes me out of my normal world.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:31pm EDT
Exactly Pat. And Rebecca was definately the inspiration for this MS. I use internal settings as well, primarily in the use of colors. Nothing bad ever happens in a light colored room (such as the yellow morning room). Passionate things happen in rooms that are in some shade of red (burgundy, rose, etc.). Bad things happen in rooms that are gray or blue. I want to use the colors, the setting, to enhance the events.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:32pm EDT
A writing teacher once told me that nobody wants to read stories set in small towns or places that no one knew. I think she was dead wrong. I've noticed quite a few novels that are set in places I've never heard of and small towns where everyone knows everyone else, where they have their festivals and daily routines, I think it's very interesting.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:33pm EDT
In my STACCATO novel the villain's mansion is literally a character. I fashioned every visual based on what would enhance Evil Alexander's character. From the freshly cut bougainvillea, their thorny stems topped with vibrant fuchsia bracts, displayed in Baccarat crystal vases--to the cold marble floor devoid of rugs.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:34pm EDT
Nancy, I like the same kind of thing. If I can't travel for real, then I want to see some authenticty in the cities and settings I'm reading about. I love getting filled in on local items, then later finding out they're real settings.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:35pm EDT
Pat S., I have to laugh. That's another topic I have planned in the near future, "How do you use color?"

But your idea is great. It would also work if you reversed the colors, such as only bad things happening in a yellow room.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:36pm EDT
In the novel I'm working on, in this one scene the setting becomes ominous because of what is happening to my MC, but it's the same setting that she's enjoyed on different occassions. It's the action that tips her vision of the surrounding to the dark side. I like that contrast.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:36pm EDT
Excellent Deborah! I love it when an author does that! A reader could never picture someone called Evil Alexander with a pottery vase of daisies!
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 9:37pm EDT
Nancy--I too believe your writing teacher is wrong. I think most readers enjoy reading about unknown places. Whether it be someplace completely made up, or a little city located in a tiny county. Exotic locations whether here or abroad are a must for novels of suspense. Sure, it's fun to recognize places you've travelled or lived, but for me the most satisfying ride as a reader is to go where I've never been or will probably never go.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
LOL Pat B! Just reading your mind and getting a jump on the topic! Nancy, interesting way to up the tension. Using the setting to make the familiar feel suddenly unfamiliar.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
Some more on that thought. I read the definition of Horror as: normal, every day people thrown into outrageous, frightening circumstances. How the normalacy of their lives adds to the horror because what's happening is so foreign, so opposite to what they usually experience. Can be the same with sunny, yellow rooms or flowers and a grisly murder in the middle of it all.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
Nancy, your writing teacher obviously never heard of a little known author named Stephen King. Aren't all his books set in a small town?

For one of my books, I invented another county in Colorado and invented a town for that county, and I used it in a second book. The city and county have the same name. How's that for originality?
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:39pm EDT
Nancy, I concur, your teacher was wrong. It we only wrote about large, familiar places, how would we have have sci-fi novels? And frankly, I get enough of New York and LA on TV. In a book, create a new world for me, even if it's Smalltown, Iowa.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:41pm EDT
I think character descriptions can also add to setting. Such as a street gang suddenly attacking a middle class suburban man, he's in the wrong part of town but is surrounded by the gang. They become the setting and in their descriptions worlds can be seen by their actions, attitudes, words, etc.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:43pm EDT
Pat B, I love the idea of squeezing a fake setting into the midst of real places. I sort of did that with mine as well. Yes, it's Cornwall, but the name of the village is made up, as is the heroine's home town. What I found difficult was making up the names. I spent ages pouring over lists of place names in Cornwall so I could create something that sounded authentic, but wasn't a real place. I'm still having trouble with the heroine's hometown, which is currently called Littletown-upon-Puddling, until I can come up with something.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:44pm EDT
Great definition of horror! And more or less why I don't write villains. To me, life and what it does to people is more horrific than any villain I could make up, so I tend to use what's there.

I just finished reading a book that talked about how we all have a self-concept, and a novel is written about a character whose self-concept is altered and has to redefine himself.

This is what I try to do: throw horrendous circumstances at my characters, and see how they go about redefining themselves. So although I don't write horror novels, I set the stage as if they were.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:45pm EDT
You're right Nancy. Describe a kindly, gray-haired doctor, and people will think 'small town'. Describe an elegant woman in a satin gown, and people will think 'ball' or 'opera'.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:45pm EDT
That writing teacher taught me a few good things, but I seriously doubted some of her advice. I ran into her at a bar where I went for breakfast one morning and at 7 a.m. she was sloshed. I decided with all advice, whether from teachers, agents, or anybody to take what works and ignore the rest. Sometimes a certain story just would not work in a large city, in fact, maybe it would work best in the middle of the wilderness. I think it's instinct on our part and also our story that tells us where it's to be set.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:48pm EDT
Pat S, is there a Cornwall dictionary somewhere with the Cornish name for Littletown? Another suggestion; there's been studies showing that some of the Algonquin language stems from whatever language spoken in Cornwall. Can't think of the name. So check an upperstate New York map; there might be a name you could use.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:49pm EDT
Oh dear Nancy! Sloshed at 7 AM? How sad!

But you're right. The characters tell us what they need, if we listen to them.
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 9:50pm EDT
Good Evening to Everyone ~ Excellent topic of discussion Pat and you've added some very good questions for us to answer.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:50pm EDT
So do we write to expectation? An aw shucks rancher in a small town and an elegantly coifed woman in a big city? Or do we tell the truth?
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 9:51pm EDT
Just popped in ~ Has anyone answered the questions?

Do you think setting is important?
How do you set your stage?
How does your setting affect your character and your character's actions?
How do your characters perceive the setting?
Does anything about your setting suggest the character's inner conflicts and desires?
Do you make your setting an integral part of your story?
Does your setting predestine your characters?
Does your setting have a personality? Scars? Weaknesses? Moods? Emotional impact?
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:52pm EDT
Pat B, thank you for the suggestion! I'll try it. That's how I found Tremayne, from a Cornish dictionary somewhere.

Is it possible to "transplant" your characters into other setting? I like time-travels on occassions, which toss characters into totally (for them) settings, and then let them cope with what they find in the new setting.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:53pm EDT
Nancy, in a way, though, your writing teacher was correct. Most books that are traditionally published are accepted by editors in New York City, and it it their attitude that prevails in fiction. Often serious works are dubbed humorous because the characters are not big city folk. Or they act like big city folk and are laughed at for their pretentions.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:53pm EDT
The map is not the territory. Another thought. A harried businessman trying to get to another town in a hurry decides to take a shortcut. The story could evolve into just getting out alive. No, I wasn't drinking my breakfast. LOL. Bar/restaurant. I think there may be another topic here someplace. Hmmmm.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:54pm EDT
Beth, I give my house "scars". Another excerpt:

"...everywhere, there were signs of neglect. The paving stones had shifted and cracked, making the walkways treacherous. The fountain was dry and filled with leaves. Weeds nearly choked out the other blooming plants. It was if the lack of love and care in Dash and Lily's relationship had spread itself over the house, cloaking everything in a miasma of decay."
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 9:54pm EDT
Welcome, Rene! We are answering the questions, but in a roundabout way.

What about you? How would you answer them?
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Wanda H. Jun 19, 2008, 9:57pm EDT
When the setting is crucial to the story line I take some time to set it up. But if the opening of the story is just about the setting, I think it tends to become boring quickly.

If, however the setting is integral to the scene, I like to take the time to make it come alive. If it is a dark back alley, I want to set the scene. I like covering all the senses, hearing, seeing, odor, taste even, if I can get it in and some tactile details, like cobble stone walkway, rough texture of the wooden door.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:58pm EDT
Pat B. you're right, of course, and sadly so. I'm afraid editors in the city have a hard time valuing what goes on outside their narrow view. And too many writers (I've seen them) think that if you don't have a NYC editor, you're not a "real" published author.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 9:58pm EDT
That Solomita paragraph of description I talked about before was so effective because the MC's take on the setting seemed rather bleak and full of paranoia and fear. Until something really good happened to him and the description of the views slowly began to change. You could see the transformation in the character by how his perceptions changed. It was really super good writing.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 9:58pm EDT
Sorry, that response should have been addressed to Rene, not Beth. Icons are similar!
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:00pm EDT
Thanks Pat ~ Don't want to just bust in or anything . . .

Do you think setting is important? ~ Yes

How do you set your stage? ~ Carefully

How does your setting affect your character and your character's actions? ~ The setting is significant and important to the development of the character. The Character's actions are for the most part determined by their environment.

How do your characters perceive the setting? ~ As part of their make-up; their choices in life.

Does anything about your setting suggest the character's inner conflicts and desires? ~ The setting suggests everything about the character's inner conflicts and desires it helps to tell the story ~ it reflects the depth of the charcters: their thoughts, their path, their choices . . .

Do you make your setting an integral part of your story? ~ Yes

Does your setting predestine your characters? ~ No. It tells the story of where they are at the moment -- in the NOW. It does not determine their future.

Does your setting have a personality? Scars? Weaknesses? Moods? Emotional impact? ~ Yes to all.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 10:00pm EDT
Wanda, I love that engage all the senses in creating setting. It's like choosing just the right frame for the painting you are about to create for the reader.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:00pm EDT
If you find the topic, Nancy, let me know, and I can schedule you to host again!

One thing I like to do in my books is work against preconceived notions. Especially when the reverse is true. For example, when I first moved to this area, the people were genteel, cultured, well-dressed, well-spoken, and now the people are like low class big city people. The first set were ranchers who left the area when the second set of city people moved.

See? No discussion of any part of writing can be separated from character.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:00pm EDT
Pat S, I like how your setting parallels the characters. It pulls the reader in and gives the setting importance. It makes it real.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:01pm EDT
Rene: never worry about busting in! We're all just busting in.
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:03pm EDT
Pat S. ~ I'll look ~ I missed the comment you made to Beth that was meant for me. ~ Hi there!
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:04pm EDT
Laughing ~ ok Pat B. . . . so many Pats in here!
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Julie Ann Shapiro Jun 19, 2008, 10:04pm EDT
I've been thinking about this discussion topic on and off all day while working. In my novel in process a girl is injured in a bombing and has partial amnesia. Her actual "past" setting locale comes in pieces on purpose as she tries to put the puzzle parts of what happened to her and why she was in the building.

Her present setting is clear as she's in a hospital.

Since I can't say the place I tend to work on other setting details like her memory of a room back home and her relationship with her Father. Together I hope these build the necessary details without the specific place.

Here's an brief scene from the novel in process:


<1>Without Father in the cabin, I could examine the wall covered up by newspaper clippings. Captions said things like: forest fires, buildings burned and tales of things gone up in smoke: combustible, flammable, explosive; all those words I remembered, not the places.

I didn't dare tell the nurse this or that Father's newspaper collection grew larger and larger the days preceding the bombing at the Institute. Not sure what they'd do to Father or me if they knew the truth.

Instead I stared at the ceiling and pointed at a brown speck in the light and said, "It's there. It's there, daddy-long-legs. Can't you see the spider?"
"Yes, I see him."
The nurse called a janitor as I thought more about Father. When I asked him one day about those newspaper clippings that he kept on the wall he said they're nothing and to mind my own business. But they were everything. I saw it by the way his mustache twitched as he spoke and the way his eye lids blinked in fast succession.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:04pm EDT
I like your scars, Pat S. (You know what I mean!)

Rene, what kind of scars do you use in your setting?
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:06pm EDT
I like how Tony Hillerman uses setting to bring forth the indian culture, the stories, legends and totems. It causes the reader to view the setting in a different way. It becomes meaningful and opens up the imagination. Back on the soapbox: and agent told Hillerman she liked his book but he should get rid of all that 'Indian stuff". LOL.
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Angela A. Jun 19, 2008, 10:06pm EDT
Here's the setting to my story, The Duke's plans go awry. I have had feedback as I published it on an article here. I would like more constructive criticism please. Thanks.

Being the only son of one of the most powerful Dukes of the realm could be awfully tedious at times Brandon decided as he stared distractedly into his freshly poured brandy from the side board of his father's library.

This had been his third glass in over an hour after realizing he would need all the liquid fortification he could stand in order to be able to continue to listen as his father the Duke of Wesley droned on about his duty of producing an heir for about the thousandth instance in his lifetime.

While his lordship remained safely ensconced in his throne on the opposite side of the room from him and doled out his usual demands, Brandon became so bored that his mind drifted to his closest friend Gregory Hughes the son of the Earl of Rochester who would be at this time waiting patiently for him to play a round of cards at White's.

Gregory with his deep brown hair and silvery gray eyes always sparkling with mirth exuded so much charm that every lady of his acquaintance chased him with the equal fervor that caused them to cling to the hope that the prince regent himself would garner them one ounce of his own favor.

But to the chagrin of his Gregory's long suffering aunt Agatha his friend refused to be caught in any debutante's matrimonial web. In that respect, he and Gregory were of like minds.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 10:06pm EDT
You're absolutely right, Pat B--it's all about the character. From where he/she is to where they are going, the settings give them a road to travel or a place to rest a while. But even if they remain in the same place throughout the piece, the character is ever-changing.
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:08pm EDT
Good words Deborah! ~ so true.
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Wanda H. Jun 19, 2008, 10:14pm EDT
Going back to something said before, editors and agents mostly clustered in NY. It shouldn't be an obstacle to a good book. Many of the books out have settings in middle America, or in small towns, Arizona desert like Hillerman's. To city people the rural is almost exotic. It is the writing, in my view, that sets a story apart and makes it sellable. Setting is important only in that we write the settings well or if we don't.
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:15pm EDT
I was reading Julie's writing ~ VERY GOOD!
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:15pm EDT
Julie, interesting image with the newspaper clippings.

Rene, even if a comment isn't addressed to you, feel free to comment. The names are mostly so everyone can follow the different threads.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:16pm EDT
Julie Ann, I like how your setting becomes part of a mystery. It makes me want to SEE more of that cabin and those clippings. You've brought the reader right into her mind and remembrance and frustration at not getting more. Very good.
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:16pm EDT
Rene, what kind of scars do you use in your setting?

Good question Pat . . .

I use interior scars of the characters.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 10:17pm EDT
As far as characters perceiving their settings, I think it depends on the character. Are they optimistic or pessimistic? Do they have knowledge of the location/setting and are apprehensive? Or do they look forward to visiting again. No matter where we take or put our characters, the setting will eventually mean something to them and therefore enhance the characterization.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 10:17pm EDT
Julie Ann, what a cool way to create a setting! I like the idea of getting it in pieces, along with the heroine.

Angela, interesting story, but if I can only offer a few critiques it would be these. Each of your paragraphs contains one long sentence. Each is about the same length. Break them up and vary sentence/paragraph lengths. Learn to love the comma.
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:18pm EDT
Deborah ~ I am loving what you have to say here.
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Pat S. Jun 19, 2008, 10:19pm EDT
Great topic, but I need to cut out early tonight. I've really enjoyed reading everyone's excerpts, and will drop back tomorrow to see all the rest of the comments! Excellent conversation!
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Angela A. Jun 19, 2008, 10:19pm EDT
I have had problems with too many commas before... How do I find a good balance, Pat?
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René Allen Jun 19, 2008, 10:21pm EDT
I too have to leave out . . . but I will be back to see all the comments!

Blessings ~
Rene
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Julie Ann Shapiro Jun 19, 2008, 10:22pm EDT
Rene,
Thanks so much. I'm back from a six month break on this novel. It's the twelve draft and I keep finding little things to fix, which is good in that before I ran out of answers and had to take a break.

This character in this story has such a challenging world. I keep rustling with whether the lack of locale matters or not as long as I have other setting details.

I'm not big on naming towns and such. This girl grew up in a small fictional town in Idaho. My other novels have kind of have some aspect of being a beach town sometimes more generic than other times.

Julie
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:22pm EDT
Angela, your setting touches the reader emotionally. The Lordship safely esconced on his throne.... It brings up emotion, he's safe and superior on the other side of the room. The MC is not. I love when setting brings up emotional issues that are shared with the MC. Very good.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:24pm EDT
Another way to use setting is to have something emotional happen someplace, such as a building, and then a return to the building would have those same lingering emotions. This could change or enhance the current scene in the building.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 10:25pm EDT
Thanks for joining us Pat S. You always provide such interesting insights! Hope to see you next week.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:29pm EDT
Yes, Pat B., another instance that really stuck with me was in a Robert McCammon book, the MC is smelling burning children. He's haunted by Vietnam. It's a clear summer day, people are laughing but he's smelling that smell. It turns out the town is having a barbecue, a big festival, but being in the MC's mind something else, very intense and not pleasant is going on from the smells.
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Dale C. Jun 19, 2008, 10:30pm EDT
Just caught up with the thread. I have trouble setting a story or even a scene in a location that I haven't seen personally. I may fictionalize the setting a bit, but if I'm going to make it feel solid to me I have to have been someplace similar.

It is possible to fake it to some extent, but it is easy to get caught with that. I remember reading a book by Harry Turtledove. One of the scenes was set during World War II in Ashton Illinois in the Mills Petrie Community center. At the time I was working in Ashton and went over to Mills Petrie at lunch to lift weights and play volleyball. At the time I was a member of an Alternate History discussion group that he was in, so I asked him if he had ever been to Ashton. It's hard to convey cringing via e-mail, but I could tell he was just hoping he hadn't gotten anything obvious wrong. He hadn't. The reference was vague enough that there wasn't much to get caught on. He had never been there though. Got the info from some research method.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:31pm EDT
The perception and how it's colored by individual experience. How 'reality' can be so twisted and turned on it's head, all from the same scene. That's mastery of writing and can tell volumes about the MC and the world she lives in and who she is.
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Julie Ann Shapiro Jun 19, 2008, 10:32pm EDT
Thanks Everyone, I appreciate the kind words on my novel in process. It's really nice to hear, particularly since I often feel like a bit of a failure since so few people have purchased my first published novel. But that's life. And no this is not a shameless plug.

Feedback for Angela:
I agree with the suggestion to make the sentences shorter. What seems needed the most is to bring the Duke more alive. Instead of telling us he's droning on about wanting an heir. Give us some choice bits of dialogue. Also, droning implies boring. Again if the Duke is very verbose and hesitant to get to the point, then show that with dialogue. Let the reader figure this out themselves.

Also, instead of saying that he gave demands show us some of these.

Now about Gregory. Instead of telling us he oozes charm show this. Why not show a scene where he's flirting with a courtesan, one that surprise even Gregory by going for it. Or something like that.

Julie
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:33pm EDT
Angela, commas are a hard thing to master. The thing to remember is pace. Sentences and paragraphs should be of varying lengths to keep the reader interested, to set mood, to show vitality. If you have trouble with commas, make the sentences shorter. Or have your character trying to talk to his father. Or have him do something. Instead of just saying he was bored, have him tap his fingers together, or drop something.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 10:36pm EDT
I often implement weather in my settings. Storms brewing help to ratchet up the suspense when the character is inner turmoil is roiling asa well.
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:40pm EDT
Nancy, that's an interesting observation -- setting doesn't have to change, but if the character's perception of the setting changes, the setting seems to change, too. Perception is all when it comes to character.

Hi, Dale! Glad you stopped by. One scene in a book I wrote took place in Thailand. Never been there, so I felt a little silly writing it, but I studied travelogues, guide books, videos, and found a few little bits that helped set the scene without going into massive detail, like the geckoes on the ceiling. Not something I will try again (at least I don't plan to) but the guy hadn't lived in the states for most of his adult life, and I had to put him somewhere!
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:44pm EDT
Wanda, I'm slow getting back to your remark, but it's right on. In the end it doesn't matter where or what the setting is as long as it's important to the character or story, and most importantly, as long as it's done well.
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Deborah J Ledford Jun 19, 2008, 10:47pm EDT
Interesting point about Thailand and the research you performed, Pat. There have been 2 short stories where a piece appeared on TV that helped me out exactly when I needed it. For one, it was a PBS piece featured in Colombia, the other (I'm still working on) takes place in Laos during the Kmher Rhouge regime. The Today show went on location there and provided some exquisite sights to implement, also on PBS the show Independent Lens aired a few weeks ago featuring a woman whose parents lived through the bloody conflict. Her take on what her parents went through really helped me understand my characters and where I need to take them. I'm always fascinated how elements "appear" when we most need them. The main thing is to be open to the universe when opportunities arise.
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Beth H. Jun 19, 2008, 10:48pm EDT
Hey, guys! Sorry to be so late--a friend asked me out to dinner just as I was heading home tonight. I'm gonna catch up...
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Pat Bertram Jun 19, 2008, 10:54pm EDT
Hi, Beth, we're still here, so you're not too late!

Deborah, that's where we came in! Our first discussion was about such bits of serendipity, which one writer called gifts of the library gods. I had a hard time finding interesting extinct animals for my WIP, but when I first started writing it, I used to find all sorts of articles about them. Like a pterodactyl the size of a sparrow. And a frog with teeth the size of a bowling ball. And a seven-foot-tall turkey. All part of my setting now.
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Nancy N. Jun 19, 2008, 10:57pm EDT
Deborah, that is so true. I call it the muse helping me out. Dale, I agree that if the setting is clearly defined it should be true to the locale. I've read books that took place in Vegas and I get confused when they have the streets mixed up and places where they're not. Back to Pat B.'s article. The smaller the world, the greater creative choices. I like thumbnail sketches of surroundings and deeper sketches of places closer to the MC. Pat's gecko's on the ceiling is great.
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Angela A. Jun 19, 2008, 10:57pm EDT