U.S. troops shoot a lot of innocent civilians all the time.

bloody mess !!!!

I'll have to take your word for it, as I can't bring myself to read it.....a person I knew just died in Afghanistan recently in a truck convoy bombing.

While in the state of constant danger and alert that our brave men and woman live in while in Iraq, Afghanistan and throughout the world, they have a heavy burden to bear. They and we are engaged in a war of ideology, with an enemy who has no pause in using woman and children as bombs to kill equally innocent American men, woman and children.

If innocents are caught up in the crossfire, no one but the leaders of these Islamic terrorist and extremist are at fault and should shoulder the blame.

This doesn't surprise me at all. The same thing happened in Vietnam. Both sides kill the innocent.

Time to bring our troops home, enough blood has been spilled. It's also time for our leader to join the conversation. Wars stem from misunderstandings, and right now we are probably the most misunderstood nation in the world because of our fearless leader.

When we went into this war Bush and friends were in some sort of John Wayne fantasy land.

It's just a fact of war...innocent lives always get caught in the crossfire. Though a difficult thing to do; knowing a war is going on around them, the innocents people should have high tailed it away from where the fighting takes place to insure their own safety and lives. On the other side of the coin; it's not really 'our' war, so just think how many innocent American lives are being lost, too.

I always wonder, and I know this cold, but I always wonder when a so called innocent child or woman is killed, how many of those killed would have grown up or gone on to strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a crowd and blow themselves and a few innocent men, woman and children, some of which could have been American lives.

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As been stated, it is a fact of war BUT this war we had no business in...........only George Bush should be fighting this war well, - with the help of Cheney!

Juan, then we have to kill them all. Every last Muslim. Every single one.

(of course that wouldn't work - and isn't even the goal)

Peter, it was just a random thought. I do not condone the killing of any innocent.

It's a mess. An ungodly mess.

collateral damage, they also shoot each other by accident quite a lot

The British have been reporting this for years and our news finally picks up on this! In fairness, it is difficult for our soldiers to distinguish between an insurgent and a civilian. What Blackwater is doing is so evil it is beyong description. There are several reports of Blackwater agents randomly killing all in their path. Just sickening!

I heard this on NPR yesterday. It is a bloody mess.
We will be (we are) paying for this war in so many ways.

yep

The worst part of this whole thing is that the war in Afghanistan, which was a legitimate outcome of the September 11th attacks, is being lost (the Taliban, who were once scurrying for cover and running into the hills, are taking back whole areas of the country and regaining influence in others) because someone thought it was more important to prove that Iraq, which had nothing to do with these events, could be knocked over in a weekend to redeem his father's legacy...

4,000 of our own deaths later and Gods know how many Iraqis.... have we redeemed anything yet?

It is a sad thing

If I was over there I would have a better understanding of what it's like there. I'm guessing that, just like in Vietnam, the enemy is hiding behind innocents and often cannot be distinguished from the innocents.

Wouldn't surprise me if many of these "innocents" were the enemy.

However, anybody who kills innocents knowingly and intentionally is dispicable. I'm sure that if it's happening, it's being done by a very few -- who should be dealt with.

Very sad

The testimony said it was the tip of the iceberg.

"If innocents are caught up in the crossfire, no one but the leaders of these Islamic terrorist and extremist are at fault and should shoulder the blame. "
Fool. Read the statements . . . they were given orders to shoot anyone not in a uniform. Yeah . . . we can't torture them all, right Juan?

" This doesn't surprise me at all. The same thing happened in Vietnam. Both sides kill the innocent. "
Wait a minute. We invaded Vietnam and they killed our innocent civilians?
We invaded Iraq and they're killing our innocent civilians? Sheeesh . . . use your head for something more than a hatstand!

"right now we are probably the most misunderstood nation in the world because of our fearless leader. "
Oh . . . I don't think they misunderstand us!

"On the other side of the coin; it's not really 'our' war, so just think how many innocent American lives are being lost, too. "
No . . . It's a RepubliCON war . . . and you're an idiot.

"Disgusting. Well beyond hypocrisy. "
No fricken' kidding. Positively naseaus. You know Tony, the worst part is imagining what the Blackwater mercs are doing since they have immunity from prosecution.

"I'm sure that if it's happening, it's being done by a very few ..."
So you go from not being over there so you can't know but you DO know that IF it's happening it's due to only a few? It's more than a few and the 'IF' is to absurde to respond to . . . read the link . . . there aren't enough lawyers for these War Crimes and consequently they don't follow up on any of them unless they are publicized by the media or are egregious, like the little prison issue that got swept under the carpet by locking up a few guards.

"I was ordered multiple times by commissioned officers and noncommissioned officers to shoot unarmed civilians if their presence made me feel uncomfortable." Got a hot flash for you . . . I've talked to combat vets and some DO think shooting children will just prevent more attacks in the future . . . and after having killed an 8 yr. old boy's family while he looked on . . . his hatred of the US might just make them right.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

Yeah !!!

Peter, war is hell.

Ah Tony what colorful language, and I'm sure very representative of those who hold a similar viewpoint.

kind of like that old saying about computers: "garbage in, garbage out".

Happy Memorial Day Tony!

"Oh what I'd do to be there to say, "Told ya, dumbass"."

Umm . . . you DO know they would explain how it was YOUR fault, right?

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

:-(

18 civilians during the past week, actually.
Overall around 14,000 Iraqi civilians have so far been killed directly by American forces.

"Overall around 14,000 Iraqi civilians have so far been killed directly by American forces. "
I can't imagine your source for this information. There are over a million dead, innocent Iraqis directly attributed to our invasion.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

This doesn't surprise me

Doyle, all the politics aside, my respect and support for all the men and woman in the Arm Forces is without question. I have never agreed with anything the Bush Administration and its fool on the thrown has said or done, especially their pretence and reasons for the war in Iraq.

I can only imagine at the constant fear that our American brothers are under, as they attempt to do what ever they have to, in order to make it back home. Despite my sarcasm, I do not condone the killing of innocent lives, even if those lives might grow up to pose a danger to us in the future.

It's sad and disgusting that this is happening, and it's sad that so many of us aren't the least bit surprised.

Tony, I guess you will believe , what you will believe.

"There are over a million dead, innocent Iraqis directly attributed to our invasion"

YIKES !!!

It is important to understand that our soldiers are in a "kill or be killed" situation. Many innocents are murdered in that kind of environment.

"Seen your local recruiter? That's how you should really celebrate memorial day."

Um ... because ... we need more innocent civilians of far away countries shot or bombed by us?

NO !!!

Joe T. Then maybe they shouldn't be in a kill or be killed environment - maybe they shouldn't be where they don't belong. What ARE we doing there anyway? What is the latest White House propaganda?

Why are we there today?

I sure don't know what we are doing there. I'm just explaining the reality of the situation. I'm against the conflict in Iraq because Iraqis did not attack us (the only criteria for bombing the bejeezus out of a country).

Shock and Awe them, already

(yikes)

Those in the Arm Forces, go where they are ordered to. Yes, being a volunteer force, they made a choice to join, but in the long run, they do not have a choice whether to be put in harm way or not. It would be idiotic to think, they would wake up in the environment that these soldiers wake up in , day after day, and suddenly decide, today is the day I am going to kill innocent civilians.

The situation they are facing, is kill or be killed. That must be a hard thing to live day after day. No matter what your politics or whether you believe in our current Administration, you should be able to agree this situation would create stress in anyone, which can lead to split second decesions that sometimes can lead to unwanted loss of life.

" It is important to understand that our soldiers are in a "kill or be killed" situation. Many innocents are murdered in that kind of environment. "

Read it again Joe . . . this IS policy, not accident.Many innocents are killed because troops want to kill them.

"It would be idiotic to think, they would wake up in the environment that these soldiers wake up in , day after day, and suddenly decide, today is the day I am going to kill innocent civilians. "

That's EXACTLY how it happens. One day the order comes down to shoot any civilian, armed or not, that makes you uncomfortable. Tony is quite right, a lot of these guys are Gung Ho and eager to 'fight for America's freedom'! Picture an uneducated type of macho dude out to be the next hero . . . thinking of it like a big game. Getting pissed off as some of the people he knows or people in his unit get injured and killed with IEDs. Who does he shoot? Nobody knows who is responsible . . . and NOW he has the green light to shoot ANYONE if he's uncomfortable. That guy looked at me funny . . . BLAM ! ! ! This stuff is happening. Sure War is hell. That's why you don't do it unless forced. And you don't make this shit 'policy'! Ever. Unless you're scum.

War is a horrible, despicable, devastating thing. It ruins lives, not just those who choose to fight it, but those forced to and, worse, those who are in the crossfire because they have no where else to be, nowhere else to go.

Someone explain to me why we should criticize people who stay in their homes, where everything they ever owned, all the legacy they have for their children is because some other country invaded for no good reason. We call ourselves liberators. Bet we wouldn't want to take a poll in Iraq now and find out how many would happily trade their original despot for our "beneficial" occupation.

War destroy soldiers, countries, civilians, scars them physically and mentally and many an innocent is needlessly destroyed. Sometimes, whether I like it or not, it's necessary. But, given how horrific it is, how long it takes to heal from one, the devastation and potential destroyed, any responsible government should only assay it when no other choice is available.

We do not support our troops by sending them needlessly into harm's way. We do not support troops by turning them into killing machines, encouraging them (if not dictating) that they kill civilians preemptively. We do not spread what's great about our country by destroying the nations of those who think differently.

Every innocent life needlessly lost is a war crime.

The Iraq war is Vietnam all over again. A US president immorally, illegally (no Congressional declaration of war ever occured in either case) decides to attack a nation
to go after it's resources (American Imperialism).
With Vietnam, originally in 1956, Eisenhower wanted tin and tungsten (then widely used in electric lights and tin cans). He wanted us to have those resources and not the Soviet Union.
Now it's George W Bush, and the world's largest batch of unproven oil reserves.
Both cases are similarlly, inexcuseably wrong. I'm also not forgetting about how George H. Bush presided over the dropping of "dumb" bombs on Iraqi hospitals, schools, libraries, old folks homes, residential neighborhoods - all non-military targets
(dumb bombs spread out with no certainty what they'll hit). All the while, US media
saturated us with tapings of smart bombs being fired, computer-controlled, at only
military targets. I consider both Bush presidents to be mass murderers, and Stephanie B. is right that we don't support our troops by sending them into this madness.
Bush and Cheney aren't supporting the troops. They are killing the troops.

Can anybody venture a guess on how many "innocents" were killed during ...
- The American Revolution?
- The War of 1812?
- The Civil War?
- WWI and WW2?
- The other wars in which we've participated and those we didn't particpate?

It's obvious and understandable why so many are against war, but we also need to consider how events would have played out had there been no war.

Alright, let's test that, Dan. Per Wikipedia:

American Revolutionary War
37500 KIA (total)
100000 dead from disease
6000 civilians killed
(Ratio KIA/Civilian=6.25)

War of 1812
3860 KIA
7876 killed by disease
500 civilians dead
(KIA/Civ=7.72)

American Civil War
203000 KIA
405000 other deaths (although civilian deaths aren't broken out, the implication would be that this is not dominated by civilian deaths because (a) disease still killed more than guns and (b) Union lost more which is contraindicated for civilian deaths since most of the war was fought on Confederate soil)

WWI
9,720,453 military deaths
8,869,248 civilian deaths (dominated by Russia and the Ottoman empire: 6.7+ million)
(mil/civ=1.1)

WWII
25,193,700 military deaths (dominated by Germany, China, Japan and especially Russia: 22.1+ million)
41,830,600 civilian deaths (dominated by Russia and China: 27+million)
(mil/civ=0.6)

For comparison
War in Iraq
14554 KIA (by latest count)
151000 Iraqi violent deaths (by most conservative count)
(mil/civ=0.1)

And

Vietnam War
220252 KIA/MIA (military)
1100000 Civilian dead
(mil/civ=0.2)


You'll notice that, until last century, civilians were pretty much off limits. Now, not so much, largely due to Hitler and Japan killing civilians indiscriminately. But, clearly, we learned how.

Congratulations, we've not only beaten our record in Vietnam on killing more civilians than soldiers, we've halved our record. We beat Hitler percentage-wise.

How proud we must be.

Not we, but they ? (the Bushies).

I'm not sure that even those entirely against this war from the beginning, that screamed in complaint, can absolve themselves of responsibility for what's been done in our name, for the stigma we have left for our children to overcome.

Innocent Iraqi deaths number over a million.

Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~

I used the mallest advertised civilian death numbers on the website to demonstrate how shameful it is at best. I fear reality is so much worse.

smallest

I'm shaking my head in confusion at the number of posters who are justifying killing innocent civilians. Quite disturbing.

What's next? Are you morons going to justify gangland slayings in the streets of East L.A. ?

And you guessed it. I'm not up for reasonable debate concerning issues such as this. Anybody who tries to justify killing innocent civilians is a flat out retarded inbred moron idiot..plain and simple.

Wil wrote...

"It's sad and disgusting that this is happening, and it's sad that so many of us aren't the least bit surprised. "

I was actually following Wil's comments hoping to catch him making another one of his stupid comments, but I have to say that I actually agree with him on this one.

But by all means Wil, don't let that give you a warm and fuzzy feeling!

Wil will be back with something wacko, wild, wanton, wicked, wierd. But for now,
yes, he said a good post. Way to go, Wil !

It must be nice to look into the souls of our soldiers and call them ruthless murderers.

As I've said before, any soldier who knowingly and for no good reason kills an innocent human being, must be punished to the limits.

Stephanie, you say civilians were off limits before this century. I have a lot of difficulty believing that, but for agrument's sake, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that's because it was more common to imprison or enslave the citizens of the land that you conquered.

Also ... just for clarification ... these deaths in the Iraq war ... are we only counting those killed by Americans? Not being a smarta**, just want to understand the significance of the numbers.

One final question ... If you were a U.S. soldier in Iraq, Vietnam, or wherever, can you say with any certainty who is a militant and who is a civilian? One thing that our soldiers are faced with and our war strategists need to work on is that, since Vietnam, our enemy doesn't always wear uniforms or other signs that say "Shoot me, I'm the enemy". They dress as, and hide behind civilians.

To this day, I thank God that I was just a little too young to have had to go to Vietnam for that very reason.

Robert F. I guess that you can't wait until January 2009. The sun will be out every day. There will be 2 cars in every garage, a chicken in every pot and the world will hold hands together, right?

"I always wonder, and I know this cold, but I always wonder when a so called innocent child or woman is killed, how many of those killed would have grown up or gone on to strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a crowd and blow themselves and a few innocent men, woman and children, some of which could have been American lives. "

The above quote was what I was talking about.