Discussion Topic: Prayer--A Way to Change God's Mind or Yours?

I think it is both to me. I need to change my human desires to match God's will. He knows the big picture and I don't. But, God also tells us to pray without ceasing and the he will give us the desires of our hearts. Good thought provoking questions.

I think prayer is mostly for myself, so that I can focus on God and not my own little needs. Its an act of trust for me. I let go of my own concerns and let God get on with it all.

I think the need for what we (Man) consider is reassurance when we need it resulted way back in people coming up with the idea of a 'god.' The 'speaking' to a 'god' is a way of speaking to the self, to making it clear, in words, to ourselves, how we feel, how we need to move forward and how to deal with our problems.

However, there's that man, Dr. Phil, who advises 'name it to claim it' in life. Rather than going through every day with the frustration of not getting much in life, you name what your goals are, your aspirations and plans for the future. The expression of these goals is the start to making them happen, because you are conscious of them, rather than not being clear about them, as you were before. In that way, you 'attract' the steps to those goals, move your plans forward, become more confident because you're finding a way of becoming 'you.' In a similar way, 'affirmations' are like prayers, which can help you towards the same ends, the same goals.

Someone I know, after a bereavement and a depressive stage, did a poster saying 'Life is for Living...GO FOR IT.' It spoke to him every time he got depressed again, because he was able to remember the charge of energy he experienced at the time of making up the words and doing the poster. It worked and he moved on.

Words matter, but the existence of a 'god' is not necessarily that important to the reassurance needed when we want it. He also went to a car boot sale some years later, when his life was a little more difficult, checking the books at a stall. He noticed a group of books of a similar nature; one title was, 'You Haven't Got The Luxury Of A Negative Thought.' The title alone helped him to keep his spirits up on the way to a better life.

Just my views about this thought-proking article.

Peace.

I think Prayer is like a telephone call: many of us hang up as soon as we give our side and never hear the rest of the conversation. This is why the Scriptures suggest to do our praying in the closet, we need to stay and listen with an open heart for the answer to our prayer.

I meditate rather than pray. I become peaceful and silent and "go within" to my center, a mental closet if you will. There I wait for answers while breathing. Patience is indeed a virtue. With patience, comes insight, and eventually, understanding.

Everything we truly need, we already have. We can learn to see it and use it.

Dianna R. has it right.

Having said that, yes I believe that it's a little of both. To me, it would be abusive of prayer to make it a petition to God for some personal wish, especially if it's for an earthly reward. But, when put in the context of God's will, in a humble manner, He has a tendency to be influenced in his doings by a faithful petitioner.

In my experience, God's response to prayer has been in some way completely unexpected yet in agreement with what I was asking of him - truly in his own way and in a timing of his own choice.

I tried prayer most earnestly a few times as a youngster ... I never saw a single result so eventually quit completely becoming an agnostic. Late in life I tried a meditation for the first time and found an altered state that very much impressed me ... within days I had other similar, yet even more pronounced experiences just from thinking within myself in conjunction with breathing ... I found God at that time.

Since then I have had a committed relationship to God and though I still attempted meditation and even a few prayers, none of those seemed to work at all compared to simple inner contemplation ... that is what I settled upon and it works wonderfully for me ...

I can honestly say that my prayers always go out to others that need help,healing etc, I don't include myself as I know others pray for healing and upliftment for me.
This is an interesting article Carla, bless you.

Prayer, to me, is a request for God to clarify things I don't understand. It's a request for communication essentially, or peace. So, it's both, to change my mind, and God's. Not in a "dualistic" sense, as in; reversing His decisions or something. He's always totally current, so each thing He does is Him changing His mind. If He acts, reality is altered, so His mind is altered as well. His mind is essentially the same as reality, from our perspective. He "knows" the whole thing.

As said in the first comment above, I believe it is both. I also believe that it is intended to be both. It is a two way street. As Jerry Kays said, when we try it (particularly as children) it doesn't seem to work. That is because as children we have naive expectations that we will be like "superman". We can just pray and get whatever we want. It is more mature to realize that the process also depends upon others and the effect on others around us. We now know scientifically that we humans do indeed have powers that are "rationally inexplicable". This comes from quantum physics, the examples of which are incontestable. We have the power to "say unto that mountain be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea" and "it shall be done." But this also depends upon whether God wants that mountain to be cast into the sea and why we want it cast into the sea. I find (now that I am much, much older) that my prayers are answered in a positive way all the time. Sometimes, I don't know it until later and then only by "accident." But it is not a matter of "gimme an ice cream cone" and it "pops into my hand." Among other things, it (prayer) and the expectation of it's efficacy puts one "in tune" with God's will and the acceptance of His Will over one's own immediate interests... as being not only His Will but yours as well in the long and "circumspective" (my word) view of things.

"We have the power to "say unto that mountain be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea" and "it shall be done."

There is a condition left out of that paraphrasing, which is, I believe, of paramount (excuse the pun) importance. Jesus said; "If ye have faith, and doubt not . . . " There is no way for a person to remove doubt from their mind. Try it, and you'll see. This is critical understanding. It is telling us that we do NOT have any power unto ourselves. We MUST have reason to believe the thing we ask for will happen, which means God must remove our doubt, for we cannot.

Here is what Jesus taught--
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So talk to your God like this: "Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your kingdom come. May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us our food for today. Forgive us for the wrong things we have done, the way we forgive those who have done wrong things to us. Do not test us but help us, so that no one will make us do wrong. Deliver us from the evil one. The kingdom and power and praise belong to you for ever. Amen!" -- Matthew 6:9-13 (Worldwide English)
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I guess about half of these statements ask for changes in self, and half for changes in God as manifest in His actions in the world. When I am in prayer, I try to be mindful that God is aware of my pain and the pain of others; there's no need for me to remind Him of the facts. Prayer can create conditions favorable for receipt of grace, for forgiveness, for healing and good works. There is no arbitrary parsing of God's will and God's actions in the world.

It is interesting to note, Dave, that in the Lord's Prayer, which you quoted, there is no asking. It is more affirmative prayer. It is Jesus saying "Give us" perhaps realizing that it is God's "good pleasure" to give us the kingdom and all that is in it. Jesus often prayed in this manner--affirmative rather than beseeching and asking.

John, I have known people with unwavering faith so I believe it is possible. Jesus often said "it is your faith which has healed you." Even with faith as tiny as a "mustard seed" we can do great things. I believe also that the idea of a mountain being cast into the sea was an exageration, don't you? The idea behind it being that with God, all things are possible.

Praying to God, for me, is very much like a husband and wife (or, a wife and husband) talking to one another about everything and anything. Laughing together, weeping together, talking over problems together, working things out together, sometimes even quarreling. In a relationship, it is always stressed that the "lines of communication" must remain open between two people in order for it to remain healthy and strong. One of the first signs of deterioration in a relationship between two people is when they no longer "talk things over" anymore. I believe that this is all the more true between a person and God. As soon as someone stops "talking things over" with God, their relationship with Him will begin to falter and eventually crumble away to nothing.

Early on in my Ministry, I referred to the Almighty as "my Boss". If I was presdented with a problem I didn't feel comfortable with at that moment, I'd tell the person, "Let me check with my Boss and get back to you." Invariably, this put a human identifiable identity that the person could themselves deal with. ("Jeez, he's got a boss, too. Okay!") Now. I take the person aside and invite them to go to my "office" and we'll talk to my Boss. The duality, I feel, is important. Don't tell; ask.

I used to talk to God all the time. The problem was that I never stopped to listen. I was too busy talking, telling God all my problems and asking for things. It was when I shut up and listened that the guidance came and the ideas--the inspiration. Now I try to spend more time in silence (some call it meditation).

Jack, I love the "boss" bit and inviting people to your "office". I know some that call God their "friend". I guess we all relate to God in different ways.

Carla,

"I have known people with unwavering faith so I believe it is possible."

It is the nature of the human mind to AUTOMATICALLY think the opposite of whatever is presented. This is not optional, not particularly significant in general. It's a "fail safe" mechanism, so we won't be totally vulnerable to just doing whatever pops into our heads. If I think I will not get hurt by jumping off a tall building, cause the idea of flying is very appealing, the mind automatically produces the idea that I will get hurt. There is no way around this, except to actually SEE that something is true, in reality.

Don't matter whether you or anyone else agrees with that fail safe system, it just keeps working. When you see someone with "unwavering faith" (in fact, and not just appearance), you are surely seeing someone that has witnessed something in reality that allows them to believe a thing is true, without much "fail safe" reaction. The reason that is possible, in the case of believing God exists, is because He does, and He demonstrates His existence to some in the real world.

You can avoid this conundrum, intellectually, but you cannot remove your own doubt. Again, try to do this, and you will begin to understand why. If you think up, the thought of down occurs, automatically. Therefore, the sort of faith Jesus is speaking of, is only possible by those whom have seen in reality, that God must exist. There's no point at all in farting around with wishful thinking, or wrestling with one's own reactive mind in order to trick oneself into not thinking certain thoughts. That is like trying to turn around so fast that one can see the back of ones head in the mirror.

In the film adaptation of the wonderful book "Watership Down" by Richard Adams there is a moment that, to me, illustrates the nature of prayer quite well. The book is about rabbits, about their lives and culture from their point of view (a fantasy novel, of course). Hazel, the chief rabbit, is running along on a dangerous mission in which he will risk his life in the slim hope of saving his warren from certain death for most and slavery for the rest. As he runs he prays to their concept of God, Frith, offering his life in exchange for the safety of his warren. Frith, represented in the animated movie as the sun, replies: "There is not a single day that goes by when some honest officer of Owsla [rabbit police] doesn't offer his life for his chiefs or a mother her life for her kits. There can be no bargains. What is is what must be."

God, the designer and creator of the universe, the writer of all the laws of physics, the master of all that is, set in place a vast plan far beyond our comprehension. The plan has many facets, most of them not visible to our limited intelligence. Thus the expression: God works in mysterious ways His wonders to achieve. It seems ludicrous, given the immensity of the universe and the necessary complexity of God's plan for it and the gap in intelligence between God and ourselves that any request from us would or could obtain his benevolent adjustment of the plan in our favour.

If we ask God to spare our loved one from death when they are gravely ill, are we not assuming that God has either failed to notice their peril or their relative worth to the world or the depth of our need for them? Are we not, in essence, telling God that He is making a mistake by allowing this injustice to happen?

If we believe in a life after this mortal one, in some continuation of ourselves in some form, then we must recognize that death is not a terrible fate, but a natural progression. It is we, the living, who suffer from death as we lose those we love. But that suffering, too, is natural and something we need to endure. We need the emotional tempering that only profound grief can give us, we need the lesson we learn from loss. It is, in the end, part of His plan.

Having said all of that, I must admit that I have petitioned God in prayer, though I try very hard not to do so. Mostly I petition God to give me strength and help me find understanding of His plan for me and my life and the fate of my loved ones and the world at large. This, I feel, is not so big a request, not a suggestion of His failure or oversight, but rather a kind of confession of my own failing. I believe that God is always speaking to me but that I am not always listening. Sometimes my prayer may be a request that He turn up the volume a little when the extraneous noise of life is getting in the way.

I try to never ask for material benefits of any kind, and I am almost universally successful in that effort. When my mother lay ill in the first year after my father's death I did pray very hard for her survivial as I did not feel ready to lose her so soon after my father's death. She did survive and lived another eight years after that. However, in retrospect I feel that what my prayer did was help me to process the emotions that were troubling me at the time.

This begs the larger question: does God micro-manage? Did He set His rules for reality in motion long ago and now just sits back and allows His mechanisms (amongst which is our own quality of free will) to do their work? Or does he intercede constantly in the day-to-day happenings of the universe, tweaking the balance of things here and there to help those in need or to right wrongs? I don't think any of us can know the answer, so perhaps it is a rhetorical question. I would be curious to hear what others think, though.

Rory,

Um, might I suggest you offer a bit of thanks . . . it's perfectly fine, I believe, to acknowledge your doubt, but, if He DID help your mother in response to those prayers . . . . Let's just say He may not be all that anxious to "play" with you at this point. And that goes to the heart of my response to your question.

In the Christian Book, you'll notice a very persistent referring to "God's will", in relation to prayer, and that is where your view of God as either a provider of exceptions, OR, a "robotic" fulfiller of His "plan", misses the mark, I think. It's the coordination of these two concepts which is at the core of the sort of prayer Jesus speaks of. He WILL do specific things for people, SO THAT, they can serve His plans.

In other words, His plan is to bring people to Him, so He will do things for us . . . if it will aid in that effort. So . . . we must have faith, and respond to what He does in an appropriate way, or . . . He has no real reason to "play" with us in particular anymore. If He gives you a little sump'n sump'n, and your response is to not have more "faith", and "play along" with what you started. . . He will not try to work through you again. You're not fulfilling your end of the bargain, so to speak.

It may sound kinda confusing, or even selfish in some sense on His part, but remember, this is just the dawn of a rather long life, and we are not going to be "here" very long at all, come what may. This is about trust, and relationship.

Actually, John, most of my praying is about giving thanks. I did not allude to it in my comment because it seemed beside the point, given the question. In fact, though, when I do feel tempted to pray for some benevolent gift I usually either begin my prayers by giving thanks for all that I have and have been given already or else I simply give prayers of thanks and ask nothing else.

Even when I do make some plea while praying I usually quallify it with the thought: "Your will, not mine."

Rory,

Well, I was sorta speaking to your question about God "intervening" in the world in response to us, and not the whole of one's approach to Him in the conceptual sense. I didn't mean to imply you were ungrateful, but just trying to point out how it could be that God could both be "answering" a prayer, and doing His will at one and the same time.

It's kinda like a responsibility on our part, to "pick up on" what He is doing in relation to us personally, and demonstrate that we are "available" for Him to work through directly. It was your mention that "[you] don't think any of us can know the answer", which I wanted to address. I'm saying we can know, if He wants us to know, but we have to be willing to "take up" what He provides, and run with it.

This is the "faith as a mustard seed" aspect. He will demonstrate His presence, but not just to satisfy our curiosity or ease our mind and such. It's more like a job offer, than a paycheck. He will provide what we need to overcome our doubting mind, and believe in the literal, real world, saw it with my own eyes, sense; but not just so we can rest easy. That would be "counter-productive".

Knowing for sure, is a great gift, but it comes with a high price. You WILL be mocked, and shunned, and seen as a kook, by the very people you wish to see you as wise and intelligent. If you can't handle that stuff, He will not burden you with that knowledge. So He gives a little "evidence" if you ask, and if you're willing to go further, He gives a little more. If you want the real deal, the full Monty, you must be willing to go the whole course, come what may. You must be unafraid of knowing, you must be a faithful servant.

I really don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense to people, it's a hard thing to explain. I was a very serious person when I asked, and always had been willing to go where the truth led me, for the most part, but still it was very hard to set aside the doubt, and fear of ridicule, and ask for more. I can see others kinda "toying with" faith, speaking of spirituality as a feeling, or idea . . . but not ready to rock and roll. He'll go "real world" on you, but only if you will. This ain't no party.

For me, prayer is a way to connect with the divine, to separate from the physical and to enter a state of peaceful consciousness. Petitions enter into some of my prayer times, others are meditations or just "being" ion the presence of God.

It is amazing to me how many peope give God human characterists and personalities. People see God more in terms of who they are rather than as God really is. I also see that people project onto God their relationship with their parents. If a parent was very judgmental and critical, often the child will grow up to see God as judgmental and critical.

I like your ideas on prayer, Linda. Being in the presence is all that is sometimes necessary.

Carla,

I don't see why assuming God is not like us in some ways, is anymore free thinking or respectful of Him, than assuming He is.

The Book I consider His very Word, clearly states that God made man in some sense after the form of Himself. So, naturally, it can be deduced that God and man are similar in some sense, and it is not the anthropomorphism of God to accept that. It is the Godthopomorphism of man, which one is accepting.

God, by definition, created man, one way or another. The viewpoint of the Book, is that God made man directly, intentionally, in His "likeness". God could have made man unlike Himself, if He wished, so there is nothing at all limiting, or restrictive of God's power or nature involved in seeing Him as "like" man in various ways; It's acknowledging His power and nature, to grant Him such a capability. Whatever God is "like", He can make beings essentially like Himself, in various ways, if He chooses to. According to that Book, He chose to.

The notion that he actually appears visually like an old dude with white hair and so forth, is nothing more than a childish reaction to the fact that some great artists had to put SOMETHING on the canvas in order to represent the Being they wished to artistically portray, and it would hardly work if they painted Him as a purple worm with three heads, or a ball of fiery energy, or whatever. Folks just can't relate to such things as their "kin". God is our kin. He's our Pappy. That's what those artists were generally trying to convey, I think. That's most certainly what that Book conveys.

I have never once "visualized" God in trying to relate to Him, and don't believe many others do such, for the most part. He distinctly and repeatedly tells us that's silliness, and He won't come anywhere near a person that does such things in regard to Him. We are never to worship any image, of any kind. That doesn't mean we can't employ imagery to paint a picture expressing some concept, just that we are to be mature about it, and not transfer our own imagery to the act of worshiping or relating to Him directly.

I have been away from this too long, causing me to have much to say based upon all of the reminders in the comments of others ...

Doubt has been mentioned as getting in the way of expectations resulting from prayer and/or relationships with God. That has to be very true, for if I decided to "prove" or have it proved "to me" that I had the "proper" faith in God by commanding the mountains to be moved ... (I am not so sure that I have not tried just that way back somewhere) ... but, whatever, I guess that I only "proved" that I did not have such faith ... because they sure as hell never moved.

I would sure like to hear from someone that did have the faith to accomplish that feat ... I would probably call them a liar. But then, everything is about change and movement on some level, at least in molecular and atomic levels ... thus I guess it depends upon ones expectations of just "how much" movement it takes to believe ...


I really liked BERF and Rory's comments about all of that. I agree with their views.


I did pray for my wife once and offered my life in place of the Cancer the doctors said she had, which was to be operated on the next morning. This was while she slept and I lay next to her with my hand on the affected area of her body ... I was very serious, because by then I had come to know God and was assured of a place in eternity and was even anxious to experience it, having no exceptional desires to remain living on earth ... but what happened, was there was a feeling, as if an electric discharge in the form of a vibration went from my hand into her stomach, a type of actual energy that I physically felt and was amazed by ... I sort of knew it was very special ... and I did not have to give up my life, and the next morning to the doctors amazement, she was found to not have cancer after all ... this is a true story, I swear to God and would gamble my life upon to this day ... prayer answered, miracle, over active imagination, coincidence, or what have you ??? ... I know what I think.

But any prayers I would ever make, would only be for things very important, and never intended to change the preferences of God, assuming God has any.


I agree with John in that one cannot "force" a belief and give up doubts just by positive affirmations about the expectations of a relationship with God, either you REALLY want it and expect it, or you do not ... God is surely available to those fully serious about it, those playing around lightly with nothing ventured nothing gained attitudes, are not likely to be successful in making a "real" connection IMnsHO.

But also, as he says, when one does have that connection, it is very easy to give up doubts associated with the truth of it all ... it has been my experience. God helps those who help themselves ... when their desires coincide with God's anyway.


As for how I "see" the God that I relate to ... I do NOT envision necessarily a completely direct relationship to the Father/Mother God as much as I do to the Spirit of that. Of course said Spirit IS a direct interconnection, but through my own personal Soul, which I call my Higher Self (that which transcends my lower ego self, which is what is typing these words) ... I see that relationship as (and it has been confirmed so) one of the marriage of the two selves, the Higher that is female in nature, and the lower which is male, in my physical case, making "us" thus "whole" in the Spiritual union sense, which is a balance of all, and all about truth and unconditional love ... there is a real appreciation from ego me to Soul, but not a "on a pedestal" worshipping from afar, more of a partnership as I see it ... I allow that I see little in relationship compared to what eternity will hold, but I am content that in due time much more will come into ever higher appreciation ... but for now, I believe my God/Spirit prefers that we relate as we do ... IMnsHO.

John, I am glad to hear that you do not see God as the old man in the clouds, but you do constantly refer to HIM and give HIM human characteristics when you write of HIM.

I believe that "in his image" refers more to God's divinity and spiritual essence. I believe that we are all created in God's image as it relates to that. Jesus was both human and divine/spiritual and I believe that we are also. There is too much of an emphasis, in my opinion, by fundamentalist Christians, on the human nature of us and not on the divinity within us. We are constantly reminded of our lowliness and sinfulness and not of how we were created in the "image and likeness of God."

Rory: "Does God micromanage?" The answer is, as I see it, "yes." And a resounding "yes." Einstein said that he did not believe that God set up rules and then played dice with destiny. That is, he was of the opinion that God set up the laws of physics and then let come what may. To me this ignores something more significant. That is, the PLAN that God set up includes the ability of some of his life forms (i.e. humans) to have the power not only to do the micromanagement through use of natural intelligence but to micromanage through the use of powers not yet explicable in scientific terms. In other words, the laws of nature that God instituted and designed in the first place include this ability to micromanage as part of the overall PLAN. That is, except that this last barrier is being broken in Quantum Physics where we know that for some unknown reason and by some unknown "connection" people (and only people presumably) can actually effect the nature and behavior of the basic building blocks of the universe (photons) unconsciously. I think that Einstein would be right if what he understood about the nature of the universe were more complete. But he was, bright as he was, not but one step toward learning the nature of things. There is always much more that we don't know than what we know. But it is always natural to assume that what we know is "all there is to know," since what we don't know is "unknown" and therefore unsuspected. That is to say, Quantum physics (one of the most proven of physics investigations) has opened the door (since Einstein) for us to realize that such a thing as controlling our environment through our WILL (prayer for example) is not only possible but now a proven fact of physics in at least one particular aspect.

Thank you for sharing that very personal experience, Jerry. It must have been a very powerful experience.

Carla,

"but you do constantly refer to HIM and give HIM human characteristics when you write of HIM."

Well, that's how He speaks of Himself. If He called Himself a 'she', I would be capitalizing that word when referring to God. It makes no never-mind to me, I'm just trying to be respectful and clear.

In Hebrew, as in some modern languages, such as Spanish, all nouns are given a gender quality, so it had to be one or the other.


"There is too much of an emphasis, in my opinion, by fundamentalist Christians, on the human nature of us and not on the divinity within us."

We are not in the same league as God. Just plain ain't. In my eyes, to speak as if we are, is to "anthopomorphize" God. When Christians say we are His children, that is speaking of our "divine nature".

John, it is anthropomorphizing God to look at us as "children" of God. Jesus said that God is "spirit". To me, that means formless. God to me is an energy, a force or an intelligence that is within each of us, in each cell of our being. That is not anthropomorphizing God. It is not seeing the same thing as seeing God as Big Daddy. I do realize that it is natural for many people to need an image of God to focus on, but that could be seen as a graven image, an idol to worship. As long as we are caught up in the need to see God as a being (in our image) we are limiting God.

Carla,

"As long as we are caught up in the need to see God as a being (in our image) we are limiting God."

Why would it not be "limiting" God to say He couldn't, or didn't, make man in His image? He made plenty of other sorts of creatures, there is no implications of any limitation whatsoever in saying He made some in His likeness. Whatever He made in His likeness, would either realize that, or be ignorant of it, but it would still be true.

It's got nothing to do with "need"; if He said He didn't, I'd be declaring we are not made in His likeness. It's His dealeo, not mine.

If we see God as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then God could not be a person. If you see God as a person, where does that person reside? Do you see God as a supreme being of flesh and blood? I'm just curious as to how you put this all together in your mind.

Carla,

I appreciate your statement and question. This, I feel, is a more useful approach to the matter than seeking to determine what "most people", or some "church", or other supposed group of people, thinks or accepts. Such "theys" may or may not be as we imagine, and even if we could ascertain such things, may be right about some aspects, and wrong about others, etc. etc. In the end, things are as God understands them to be, or there is no God.

And, that is to me, also the crux of the matter, in terms of what this concept of "person" means. The question comes down to, in my opinion; Is God aware of God? Does God have a "mind" which is self-aware? Can God "decide" things, and be at one with such decisions? Can God intend things, and act on those intentions in a concerted, deliberate way?

That is what I mean by God being a "person", that He has a sense of His own existence, apart from what you, or I, or this or that group of people may imagine or decide. That He is not just a set of tendencies or "forces", which are playing themselves out in the universe, but rather, is a "being" which is consciously doing things.

One might say; Is God a 'what', or is God a 'who' ?

The "thing" which I have witnessed, definitely was aware not only of what I did and thought, but also what I made of all that. It was aware of how I related to myself and what I was aware of and was impacted by His "contact" with me. It was relating to me, as a consciousness, as an independent "self". It was NOT relating to me as a set of events, or an object. It understood me, the person, not just me, the creature.

So the question is not; Is God JUST a person, and not infinite?, but rather; Is God infinite, AND a "person"?. Does His infinite nature INCLUDE a "personality" of some sort?

The "thing" which "contacted" me, most definitely exhibited what we generally recognize as a "personality", an ongoing awareness of what it was doing, and how that was effecting me as a personality.

I don't believe that prayer is at all changing God's mind about anything.

When I see football teams or boxers or baseball players say they won with "God's help" I am repelled.

If one boxer wins and one loses, going by the their standards of prayer then God loves the one but not the other? Does God even care about something like a boxing match?Silly.

I have heard people say they prayed to God for help with their plumbing or their budget or their car and voila, problems gone. Absurd.

I have heard people, in their prayers tell God that they or rather 'we' are nothing without Him. Insulting.

I firmly believe in a Higher Power, a creative force, an intelligence that is behind all that exists. I believe there is a connection to that intelligence with every single living thing in the universe. I believe that meditation, looking for that quiet place within, we can tap into that power, that intelligence because it is part of us and we are part of it. We are all one with that intelligence.

I am a spirit having a human experience not a human being have a spiritual experience.

Wanda,

" Does God even care about something like a boxing match?Silly."

Yes, a silly question, I think. The real question is, in my opinion;

Does God care about the boxers ?

If He does, He cares about such things as boxing matches. Not as a fan might, or a bookie or agent, but as a caregiver. There is no way to care about people, and not care what happens to them. Care, as a reality, and not just a "feeling", means caring about what occurs to those one cares about. Care, as a reality, means doing something to help those one cares about, not just wishing them well, or dwelling on one's feelings about them.

Thank you John, for that definition of caring.

John, you seem so adament and insistent about the idea that we are made in the physical image of God, but you do not seem to want to admit that we are also made in the spiritual image of God, that we are divine spiritual beings and not just human. Why do you find it so hard to embrace this?

Prayer for me is one of presence. I'm drawn by love to enter that presence. If I use words it is simply to embrace all those whom I love and for whom I've promised or ought to pray and enter that presence with them. It's hard to explain. Metaphysical perhaps.

Beryl, I'm sure that you must be familiar with Brother Lawrence's book "Practicing the Presence". It sounds as if this is similar to what he wrote about.

Carla,

Your fixation on this "image" thing is puzzling. I have never once in my life said that the concept necessarily has anything at all to do with the "physical" appearance, nor ever even considered it important. I always thought it was about how our minds and other consciousness in general are "organized", or some such more elemental aspect of "being". It's YOU who can't seem to deal with the potential of some physical implications, not I.

I have no problem whatsoever with the notion that what you ever so vaguely refer to as a "spiritual" similarity is implied, but you don't seem to realize that by 'spiritual' that Book is saying "the intellect of the soul". I just don't buy into dreamy notions of 'spiritual' as meaning a "special" emotional reaction one suckles on, to feel one is close to God. Such projections are to me the worship of images, and contrivances of the mind. To me, that is simply self adoration, a form of hedonism.

We are not vegetables, and basking in the warm glow of imagined radiance from God, is nor our purpose in life, nor afterlife, I don't think. We are persons, created in the likeness of God, whom is a "person". I will not worship a "force" that one can imagine is sending warm fuzzy feelings our way. It's just too primitive a religion, to me.

John, you seem to speak out of both sides of your mouth. At one point you say that you are not saying that God has a body like a human. Then you turn around and say that "We are persons, created in the likeness of God, whom is a 'person'". What does a "person" mean to you?

As far as seeing God as a force, energy or intelligence (and without a physical body)what is so primitive about that? Jesus said that God is "spirit". What does that mean to you?

Carla,

I already explained what I mean by 'person', three comments ago. I also spoke of what I mean by the term 'spirit' in my last comment. I feel it is what the word in the Book means; The intellect of the soul. It means the ongoing mind, which remains with the soul, regardless of it's physical state. It's the "self" of us, the particular awareness we "are". Please read what I say, and perhaps you won't get so confused.

John, as I am beginning to see it, your views, you refuse to differentiate for analyzation into ego self (objective body) and higher Self (Soul) Spiritual personality.

Objective brain and subjective mind ... I wonder why that is ??

You value highly "your" experience with God ... but never seem to say that it was much more than His having "proved" to you, strictly rational and logic it seems, that He is real and powerful enough to prove it for you ...

Then you seem to think the least and worst of those of us that have personal subjective relationships of the mind and involving intuition, as just warm fuzzy imaginations most likely concocted by "our" wishful thinking to feel good ... something that to such as yourself, with all of your intelligent logic and objective rationality, means nothing in comparison to "your" experience, whatever that was ... yours being real and ours being just imaginative little people we have manufactured in our heads for our own entertainment fallacies ... is "that" the way it is for you John ?? It sure "seems" so ....

PS ... I should have did it before the previous comment, but I have since went back and reviewed your 3rd comment back description of the "person" aspect of God.

In doing so, it seems to me that you see God as "separate" being, relating to his "children" separately also, loving them and hoping for the best to all of them, but rewarding especially, those such as yourself, that make the proper relational "connection" to Him.

It would seem then, that only those children who have made the very same kind of relationship that you have with Him, would then be "qualified" to be considered your brothers and sisters in God !?!

If that is so, I see it as a very egotistical view. One that values your objectivity over and above the subjectivity of others ... ?!?

Jerry,

"You value highly "your" experience with God ... but never seem to say that it was much more than His having "proved" to you"

I prefer to express my "feelings" about such things in poetry, and songs. I find tossing a lot of adjectives about, just doesn't do it justice.

"it seems to me that you see God as "separate" being"

Yes, He gave us freedom, independence. He's very generous.

"but rewarding especially, those such as yourself, that make the proper relational "connection" to Him."

I've never really thought about rewards. I just want to do what's right. If there's no reward for me, so be it. I'd serve Him anyway, He's already given me life, free of charge. I figure I owe Him.

All people are my brothers and sisters. Always seemed that way to me, and that's what He tells me too. I figure He oughta know.


This division between what you call "objective" and "subjective" is unknown to me. It all comes mixed together, what use is their in trying to divide such things?

Well said, Jerry. I would agree. John seems to believe that only his experience of God has merit. This egotistical view, plus his condescending comments, is what makes me not want to respond. It gets old very fast. You and I have experienced this time after time on many different comment threads.

You say you want to do what is "right", John. I thnk that you prefer to "be right". You argue incessantly with others about their views rather than just share yours and leave it at that. That shows me that you are more into proving you are right rather than trying to do what is right. To do what is right, in my opinion, would be to accept and respect the views and beliefs of others and to honor them. You don't have to believe them or follow them yourself.

John, as I have attempted to point out before, you see God as a separate being, actually "OUTside" of creation.. Thus your God can, and will, interact Into creation, to Involve Himself with his children who are willing and anxious to participate with Him.

You do not break anything down, so you say, into separate matters for analyzation, thus body, mind, Soul, us, God are effectively for yourself all the same thing … you are either aware of the relationships or you are not, thus you claim that you are and we are not … evidently, based upon your own words and actions. It seems that you deem those of us that do analyze, to be "playing silly games" … but of course, you are not, only the rest of us …


Anyway, as I se it, God IS the totality of His Creation, we are thus but "parts" of God, when realized, we are gods under the One God as in G/gs … we are the g fractions of the Denominator G. That makes us all a whole, realized or not, NOT separate beings, that only the view of the detached ego self. [ but to get even more specific based upon the BET (+=-), the Spirit of God as the (=) replaces the void/gap of (/) in that fractional relationship, which without Spirit (=) is but a duality (+/-) … (+=-)>(+/-)]

WithIN God (mine) there exists the Spirit of said God, that intermixes throughout … available for our relationship to each other AND God as a whole … very simple really, but evidently "different" than your view.

I "divide such things" ONLY for understanding, for the purpose to communicate the differences in our thinking and related experiences, so as to hopefully convince those the most shallow in their "gamesmanship" around the concepts of relationships to God, that there may well be far deeper and far more rewarding experiences to be had … actual Spiritual (=)interaction with all of creation.

You guys crack me up,

OK, so I got numerator and denominator mixed up ... but reading "between" the "line" (spiritually), one would still "get the message" ...

" To do what is right, in my opinion, would be to accept and respect the views and beliefs of others and to honor them. You don't have to believe them or follow them yourself."

Gosh that sounds noble. I wouldn't mind that one bit.

" . . niether can you prove that Jesus meant what you believe as we are getting our accounts secondhand, thirdhand, passed down orally for 40 to 200 years, translated from the original language, and re-translated with different versions. The writers of the four gospels aren't even consistent about everything."
                   Carla G., May 25, 2008, 3:55pm EDT

Noble words are kinda easy to type. Pretty much like any others.

So what is your point, John?