While looking at Crooks and Liars yesterday reading comments on one of the articles which had suggested John McCain's belligerent stance on Iraq and commitment to "staying in" indefinitely might alienate middle class conservatives, a Democrat commenter with more political nous than political correctness replied that talk of permanent war was just what middle class conservatives wanted to hear, they loved the wild west politics of Bush and wanted affirmation of America's global ascendancy. Increased military action would take their minds off the price of gas and bread, the credit crunch, immigration and the rising tide of atheism.
As the person who wrote the comment expanded his theme it stuck me that I had heard something similar before. Something about giddy minds and foreign wars...
This sent me scurrying to Google to see what I could find. Sure enough the search came up with this, from Henry IV Part 2 (Act 4 Sc. 5)
King Henry is talking to his son, Prince harry
Therefore, my Harry,
Be it thy course to busy giddy minds
With foreign quarrels; that action, hence borne out,
May waste the memory of the former days.
So if we think about that then quite clearly the "action hence borne out may waste the memory of former days" is a reference to the fact that the GOP hierarchy know the economy is in a hole it cannot climb out of, society is divided as never before and the challenges posed by climate change may already be insurmountable. How then do they waste the memory of former days or to put it another way, discourage the electorate from looking backward to happier and more secure times under a Democrat President? Simple, distract them with foreign quarrels. Political orthodoxy holds that in times of war the electorate will rally behind the incumbent Government.
Well that could not be more plain could it. John McCain's senior foreign policy advisor is William Shakespeare. So when you hear Republicans claiming McCain's age should not be an issue, knock them down by replying "It ought not to be, but some of his team are way past their sell by date."
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Comments: 175
It just shows that nothing has changed since the days of SHakespeare...and good old Machiavelli...when it comes to manipulating the masses. In fact, maybe William (1564-1616) learned some things from Niccolo (1469-1527).
People are manipulated in the same way throughout the ages because when you take away technology - under it all we are still people.
This reminds me of the movie Independence Day. "If we can break through their technology, they are as weak and vulnerable as we are."
#Good one, that cracked me up.
As a former I.T. consultant I have to say technology is one of the most effective tools the manipulators possess.
Everyone borrows from Shakespeare. I sometimes wish people would throw away their Bibles and read the Bard instead. It's all there, and the quality of the writing is much better.
Shakespeare certinly learned from Machiavelli. Marlowe did too, as have I - which is why the header to my Little Nicky Machiavelli blog carries these lines from Marlowe's "The Jew Of Malta":
"I count religion but a childish toy
and hold there is no sin but ignorance."
Little Nicky Machiavelli
WOW, this is hate speech in the extreme. What the hell does religion have to do with your point at all, you hateful ugly little fat man with strange hair... Oh wait, that was hate speech, saying the bible needs to be thrown away is just liberalism showing more tolerance again. Okay, I got it now… sorry… you liberal koolaid drinkers can carry on!
--CM
WTF is koolaid? Liberals in Europe drink beer, wine, spirits. And in the morning, coffee that would launch one of Steph's rockets to kick start our system. Children drink pop, Iron Brew mostly around here (us northerners are well hard)
It seems to me its the redneckes who are always keen to tell me they are 12 steppers. Well let me tell you, line dancing is for wimps.
Forget hate speech, just say what is on your mind. But remember the rule of nine.
I think "Shrew" illustrates to conflict between man and woman very well, thus giving us an insight into human nature. Such insights are sadly lacking in the other book I mentioned.
It could apply to the Hillary / Barak spats of course.
And anyway Burton's voice is an entertainment in itself.
I would guess McCain does not know much Shakespeare but there are people in the GOP smart enough to find the best when hiring scriptwriters for their puppets.
I thing everyone would like an intelligent policy rather than a self serving one. The problem with that is there are only politicians contesting the election.
I don't know much about "No child left behind but policies aimed at levelling the playing field in Britain have tended to have the opposite effect. In poorer arreas all children are left behind this widening the gap between rich and poor in education and and opportunity as well as personal wealth and material benefits.
I agree with your presentation of the equation but in the context of the article I was referring to the "real problems" as perceived by the religious right.
I don't mind right thinking folk like CM having a go, I just wish they wold develop their language and comprehension skills instead of obsessively repeating phrases they do not inderstand. Hate speech? Where did he get that from?
Made me laugh anyway.
How do you feel about being stalked by people who like to watch train wrecks?
She does attract the fans of kool aid drinkers doesn't she. As Steph is a very attractive lady am I missing some salacious double entendre here on account of my being British?
How would you define your statement, "Everyone borrows from Shakespeare. I sometimes wish people would throw away their Bibles and read the Bard instead. It's all there, and the quality of the writing is much better. " , using liberal standards, as not hate speech?
I noticed every person who responded glossed over the point, and you laughed about it. However, the question still remains, how is that not hate speech?
Also, I see you are now enjoying the koolaid, even though you seem to believe the words should not be together. A small annoyance for sure, but what the hell you are British after all.
I think Joy said I tended in my comments to bring out a response in different folks. Of course, you do that, too.
CM,
For people who regard the Bible as self-serving fiction, there's nothing hateful in the sentence you quoted. It's like comparing the review of two "classics," though I don't doubt you'll see what I said as hate speech, too.
Gee, do you think that's train-wreck-inducing enough for Joy?
sorry hon, I couldn't resist ;~P I don't know who your critic is but I think he completely missed the point.
Personally, I agree with you Shakespeare had a much better grasp on human nature than the transcribers of the Bible seemed to...
Sandy's right too, just because McCain is 'old as dirt' doesn't necessarily mean he knew the Bard. Doesn't seem likely as his grasp of the English language leaves a lot to be desired...
However, the question still remains, how is that not hate speech?
I didn't detect any sense of 'hate speech' in this until Charles started his diatribe against you and everyone else here who responded to you.
OF COURSE you don't believe it is hate speech because it was written by a liberal and that is the f'en point!
Or maybe its because you're a woman that you don't get it? (Oops, perhaps you will call that hate speech.) It's okay to throw away religion and the book billions of people believe in, but whoa to he who says something off color about a group of people, when it comes to sex, color, or sexual orientation.
Every time you people, those of you who don't believe in religion open your mouths people need to slam the door in your ignorant faces and call you people for what you are... Haters! If you don't like the bible keep your mouths shut, just like you tell those who carry the bible to keep their mouths shut when it comes to social issues.
You socialist liberals have declared war on religion, and the more you put down religion the more religious people will stop turning the other cheek and start calling your comments what they are... That it is hate speech.
You wanna know what is funny, I don't believe in the Bible, but I strongly believe in people's right to carry that book around and for it to be as revered as those disgusting books called Marxism and Darwinism that you self-righteous know-nothings spread as the only truth.
I realize some of you might call this a rant, when in reality… I crack myself up!
I think this will be my angle from now on, every time I see you liberals bash the Bible or religion I will start referring to it as hate speech. I will tell every religious person I know, when people put down religion it is hate speech and it must be treated as such. I wonder just how long you liberals can last under the weight of your own medicine. I don't know but I am sure it is going to be fun finding out.
I think I will start today…
--CM
You are the one labeling those of us who don't agree with your assessment... but then, taking a page from your own book, I will guess that you have firmly closed your mind to other points of view. If they don't agree with you they must be of the dreaded 'liberal' persuasion.
Wrong, I have decided to fight liberalism with liberalism... That's it! His bible statement had no bearing on this conversation until he purposely brought it into this debate for hateful reasons and hateful reasons alone. I mean it truly is easy to be a liberal, just take the most outlandish reasoning for any purpose and then label it as hate speech.
But then again Kathleen L, I will guess that you have firmly closed your mind to other points of view.
Proof that that book that billions of people believe in hasn't taught them a f'n thing.
Great point, so far that is the most articulate response I have seen thus far!
Yet, Dan Brown and his book, though it has followers, does not espouse morality nor does Dan Brown contend his books where given to him by a god. Even though it is fine to attack Dan Brown the person for his writing or style, or even some men as being cheaters... It is another thing all together to say people should throw the bible away especially if the person saying it is openly anti-religion.
Along that same point, if you said all Dan Brown books need to be banned from any public discussion or government buildings... Would people be justified in calling you a hater of Dan Brown?
Also, since when have religious people not been part of a group?
And this is proof yet again Sandy you have no idea what you are talking about. You take the actions of few and cast your condemnation on the many... Hmm, where have I heard that before!
Neener neener!
(Whee, back in kindergarten. Tee hee.)
You don't fool me, I knew from your first comment you are just another clone of the person who as Bret attacked me in the same hystertical and illogical fashion in earlier threads. Carry on mate, nobody is listening.
As for hate speech, now lets see if you can guess the source of all this hate speech (clue; it is not from Shakespeare):
Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Now CM / Bret, compared to all that hate speech, what is hateful about my saying people shoold trow away the book it is contained in and read some great writing instead? If you know what I mean?
Try putting your brain in gear before your fingers hit the keyboard.
I can remember my reaction when my aunt sent me some original music she had recorded of "Bible tales for children." I'm listening (she has a beautiful voice) and horrified at the violence and intolerance that are part of the stories, but I couldn't fault them - they were as written. Shouldn't there be some sort of age appropriate warning on the Bible? It seems appalling to me that married couples in movies had to have separate beds but Ben-Hur was rated "G".
What about the part, Ian, where God sent a bear to tear children to pieces for laughing at Elijah's bald head? Who else thinks that's a drunken fantasy of Elijah's, tired of all the ridicule and helpless to deal with it directly?
Well nobody seemed willing to tel me what kool-aid was so I had to look it up. Though CM was annoyed that I separated the words I found it is in fact two words but hyphenated. So he was wrong as usual. I have to be honest, it was the spelling that fooled me. Kool aid suggests it is something to do with Bono and Madonna going out to Africa and getting wells dug.
Apparently not. It is something for rednecks to drink when they are ready for something stronger than Budweiser. If only they understood the refined and sophisticated tastes of us liberals. If you round up the others and teleport over I have a few bottles of Lanson Black Label Blanc des Noirs in the ceallar, I laid it down four years ago so it shold be just right now. Lovely day for a glass or two of vintage Champagne too.
Don't worry, unlike my critic I have a sense of humour.
And he always misses the point, whichever of his login IDs he is using.
So you are going to tell religious folk to gang up on us?
Well they already tried that and ended up punch drunk and arguing against themselves.
Bring it on.
How now, indeed! They simply make a concerted effort to destroy public education, convince the public that what they buy is more important than what they know, use religious fundamentalist hatred of reason and science against any kind of argument FOR reason and knowledge, then "create their own reality", as one of Bush's aides told the press. If you have an ignorant public, who is naturally biased against reason, logic and science, who is raised to not question authority, and who has never been exposed to true historical fact, it is extremely EASY to manipulate them and fill their heads with the "reality" of your choosing.
Another side reference when people discuss kool-aid and religion has to do with Jim Jones and convincing (some via force, theoretically) his whole congretion to drink poisoned kool-aid, so that term's often trotted out when the lemming mentality manifests. That's probably not in the dictionary.
I'm touched by your champagne offer. Unfortunately, there is some weirdness in me that makes alcohol entirely unpalatable for me. I love fruit juice, though (but not kool-aid).
Its that irrational hatred of Liberals gives CM / Bret away every time. Warped minds then to be highly individually warped so when I see two that are warped accoring to the same template I am suspicious right away. Then a quick comparison of the grammatic quirks and other little tells confirms it.
He does not understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. In his warped mindset, his opinions are facts and everyone elses' opinions are liberal lies.
Thanks, I think I pre-empted my reply here by nailing the stuff on sex race and sexual orientation in the hate speech examples from the Bible
Yeah he is heading towards a precipice, its sad to watch, but I did not ask him to join the thread
See, this is exactly the type of bizarre attempt at reason and logic that is the death knoll of the American democratic experiment. This is the same level of "logic" and "reason" that is espoused by Rush Limbaugh in political contexts. And the icing on this whole mess of lack of reason, logic and civil debate is the name-calling - the turning of words of good meaning such as "liberal" and "elite" to ones of near criminal behavior.
And it is the height of irony that the derogitory use of the term "Kool-Aid drinking" and its reference actually stems from the Jim Jones religious cult called the People's Temple who were brainwashed and led into mass suicide by their religious leader. Like most popular fundamentalist religious leaders, Jones realized how he could use the bible to manipulate the masses, claiming that the bible contained "great truths".
I never knew Elija was bald but I know his Chariots of Fire prove he was Hermetic and not Abrahamic.
I can imagine a lot of slapheads have fantasised about horrible things happening to the little horrors who taunt them.
Sticks to his guns :-)
Good one.
I have predicted over on Huffington Post that the GoP secret weapon will be an attack, probably by Israel, on Syria or Iran. Political orthodoxy holds that in times of crisis people rally behind the incumbent government.
But when the economy had collapsed, prices are through the roof and people cannot afford to fill their SUV to drive to the mall for retail therapy, and everybody's credit cards are maxed out, busying giddy minds with a foreign quarrel is a reliable fallback position. Trust the Bard.
Bucks fizz any good?
Since nobody is listening... It's a good thing for you and people like you don't ya think that religious people are not blindly following sheep anymore in Western culture. We'll, in other parts of the world you dare not mention you're atheist or heads literally role... But that is another topic altogether...
I think after I get done running around inside my life... I shall post what Atheist have said over the last few years that you people still practice and believe in today... I shall use more immortal words… I'll be back!
(Paul M you liberal bastard… I might stop by and see you later… You in town today… call me)
--CM
I belive what you say about kool-aid, you are always right (just not as whacky as I am) but that being the case, is it not a non sequitur when CM equated kool-aid drinking with liberalism. After all we think for ourselves, its the rabid right who have lemming-like follow-the-crowd instincts.
Dammit Sher, you made the same point I did but got it in first :-)
Great minds and all that.
Well quite, reason is wasted on them.
The fact is mate, we're all jealous as hell because "the voices" only talk to you.
Thanks, Sandy....just returning the favor from other articles where I simply sputtered, "Ah, ah....what Sandy said!"
You have not answerd my point on hate speech (or anyone else's for that matter)
Lost for words are you?
gosh, I do love reading these bible thumpers' comments on gather...the more you engage them in conversation, the more you wish Jesus was actually here to hear what they say and condemn them all to hell.
I can't see anything strange about my hair. I was 55 when that photo was taken and I have a full head. better than Elijah eh?
I'm nearly 60 now and still have a ful head of dark hair. I notice CM's piccy tells us it is taking him longer to wash his face every day (well he started it) so I guess that is what pisses him off about me.
Why are some people so dead set against admitting that they hate something, when everything they say proves how much they do? That's dishonest (and I think there might be a lesson or two somewhere in that bible about honesty).
I have absolutely no problem owning my hatred for dishonesty, or my hatred for mistreating others, or my hatred for having pure BS thrown in my face. And, I will even admit that when people do enough of those things often enough to prove it is their true character, I have no trouble admitting that I don't like them.
Ian . . . . McCain would have to READ Shakespeare . . . so I'm throwing in the "Coincidence" Flag. And John "Pro-Torture" McCain (who was against torture before he was for torture) wouldn't stand a prayer whether he softened his Iraq stance or not. If he had the ability to turn back the clock to the days when he stood up against his party and against George "you may kiss my ring" Bush then possibly but McCain has just become the Party's Boot-licker-in-Chief.
By the way...I don't care for Romance books and think people might better spend their time reading Biographies. Guess that makes me a hater too. (Pass the Kool-aid)!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Bill "Worst Person in the World!" O'Reilly uses "drinking the Kool-Aid" a lot. The phrase gets several paragraphs in the Wikipedia entry for Kool-Aid.
The style is a tad too Tiberius Ceasar to appeal to Jesus I think LOL
I think "hate speech is a phrase of Political Correctness that some Rabid Right types has latched onto and like to throw around every time somebody with a more reason based approach to life criticises anything.
It does,'y apply because you, Sheryl, Steph, Aniko, Bert, Doyle, Kathleen, myself and the rest in the thread are anything but Politically Correct. We are tolerant of others opinions but state our own strongly and without equivocation.
CM has that swollen sense of entitlement so common in the Rabid Right. "Liberals" in his view ought to be weak and vacillating. He thinks he is entitled to expect that.
He's wrong again.
McCain has to become Bush's mini-me but also he needs a war or at least a terrorist incident to rally the faithful. But I have been predicting those things would happen since 2005.
I notice its all kicking off in Lebanon again. Ooer...
Shakespeare's writing is pretty consistent. Some is sublime and some is just excellent.
Thanks, again you confirm that CM's throwing of the phrase at the bravest, most intelligent, most outspoken people on Gather only shows his ignorance. And when he aims it at me, former standup and chief Really Awkward Bastard, he's just asking for trouble.
"I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortured a pagan, a heretic, or an unbeliever. " Daniel Boorstin
Still running around inside my life, just stopped to see what was said... I am so glad no one is listening. Oh, and don't worry Ian I will respond to your quotes in the bible upon my return, and then post all the fun stuff atheist have said and have DONE over the past one hundred years...
Until then mate... Cheers!
Sidebar: In the entire history of the Roman Empire Christians were persecuted for less than 20 years, IIRC.
The Bible was written in Greek first - Hebrew is a bit of a myth, there never was any Hebrew language it was just what the Jews called Aramaic. They had a penchant for giving things Semitic names. Canaan is an example, it was known to the world as Phoenicia. The Phoenicians were a hellenic civilisation of city states and spoke Greek according to the histories we are not encouraged to look at.
At the time Jesus is alleged to have lived the whole of Palestine had been under Greek rule from Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire until Rome tok over around 60BC.
So Greek was the language of the Bible lands by the time anyone except the Assyrian, Persian, Babylonian or Egyptian rulers had learned to write.
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again.
(Alexander Pope)
Yes tolerance comes from enlightenment and those who start throwing accusations about are soon hoist by their own petard.
I'll look forward to your posting - but in your own page please, don't dump your rubbish in my thread or I'll remove it and then you will have to start crying about my censoring you all over again.
Oh, what fun! I can hardly wait.
There was little persecution on religious grounds in the Empire. Try dodging taxes though and the Romans were worse than the Spanish Inquisition.
Think Syria too.
Well its probably an empty threat, but so long as he posts it as his own article on his own page, none of us will need to look and we can reast assured nobody will read it.
I had a quick look at his page to see what kind of nut I had attracted. He had one article, his theory of the origins of the Universe. It had a lot of similarities with my Cosmic Mouse Turd theory which was posted several weeks earlier.It lacked the humour of course - and the lively and witty comments from intelligent and articulate readers.
But his lack of readers is not my problem, I'm not having a 2000 word article in my thread just to give him an audience LOL
Good one, thanks.
There too. With the situation so volatile we could be hitching our cars to horses and Donkeys (OK for Nissan Micra drivers) before long.