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by Dave McGill
Member since:
January 23, 2006

the contrarian - SO WHO'S UNDER THE BUS? AND DOES IT MATTER?

May 03, 2008 12:40 AM EDT
views: 361 | comments: 119

Somebody's under the bus, that's for sure. But is it Obama or is it the entire GOP?

Obama's been ducking and weaving like an accomplished boxer, as the Clinton camp and some early Republican critics have been throwing every punch they could muster. And some have clearly been below the belt.

The latest surprise, however, was that when his own corner flung the stool at him, in the form of a self serving series of tirades by the Reverend Wright, the plucky candidate was still able to withstand the attacks with style and grace.

The majority of analysts have suggested that Reverend Wright, in effect, has thrown Obama under the bus with his divisive remarks regarding race, religion and the U.S. government.

On the other hand, some have made a compelling argument that it is the GOP who are the losers, especially after Obama angrily disowned his former pastor and rejected his remarks. Their thinking is that by the time the conventions are over, this issue will be as stale as an old movie on reruns.

Karl Rove is one who clearly does not subscribe to that theory, however. The Fox News commentator predicted that the controversy would "continue for months."

It's likely that John McCain will personally conduct a clean campaign should Obama become his opponent. However, we've already seen that the dirty attacks will continue with or without McCain's involvement, and if recent events are any indication the Republican candidate will stop short of condemning them.

Don't forget the swift-boat gang that was able to convince gullible Americans that a legitimate hero was a phony coward, while supporting a presidential candidate who ducked a combat role with a controversial stint in the National Guard and a vice presidential candidate who succeeded in getting a series of deferments, five in all, until he became too old to be called up.

If the dirty tricksters could pull that one off, maybe they can coral a significant number of voters into believing that a patriotic, clean-living, American Christian is, in fact, a closet Muslim who hates white people.

They had better be careful, however. What has been happening here without a great deal of attention being focused on it, is that Obama is gradually taking on the persona of a noble gladiator, under attack from all sides but still refusing to lower himself to the level of his attackers.

Another way to put this is that he is becoming a classic underdog - without actually being one.  And if nothing else is certain, Americans love an underdog.

Indeed, even in the face of the comments by the wrongful Wright, and some heavy "piling on" by Hillary Clinton, four more super delegates have defected to Obama in recent days, including longtime Clinton ally, and former Democratic National Committee Chairman, Joe Andrew.

And adding another potential arrow to Obama's quiver, is the possibility that minorities might perceive that the ongoing attacks are racially motivated. This could create a groundswell of inner city registrations that even the Supreme Court might not be able to quell.

And that brings us to the very discouraging question of whether the will of the people will really matter after all.

There have been some disturbing news accounts that suggest that even now, eight years after the initial barrage of problems from the electronic voting machines, the suspect brands could still play a role in distorting the will of the people.

According to Common Cause, more than a third of our states still use voting machines that do not support hand recounts and provide no auditable paper trail.

It's nothing less than a disgrace that this problem, which strikes at the heart of our most inalienable right, is still allowed to fester, particularly since Congress has been in the hands of the Democrats for the past 16 months. During that time new bills related to the electronic voting machine problem have been considered, but they have become so burdened by amendments that critics have deemed them ineffective. At present they languish in committees.

And when new regulations are eventually enacted, the voting machine vendors claim that they will need 4½ years to develop, certify and implement any new products required, which suggests that we cannot even see a light at the end of this miserable tunnel.

If the allegations that machine irregularities caused Kerry's defeat in 2004 are true, then one can only imagine the extent that the illegal efforts would take to prevent the election of a liberal, black candidate in November.

Dave McGill, News Correspondent

Dave's column, "The Contrarian," generally published every Friday, to Gather Essentials: News will sometimes present a contrary view to various aspects of the news, or an alternate take on the conventional wisdom of the day, and will occasionally appear on other days of the week

Dave has been a senior officer of a large eastern insurance company, involved in economic projections and investment strategy, president of a Midwestern mortgage banking company, and a financial consultant in Southern California, serving clients in the field of commercial real estate development

You can find all of Dave's "The Contrarian" columns at: http://gather.com/thecontrarian...... Keep up with Dave's other postings and Gather activity by joining his Gather network - just click here: http://atadaskew.gather.com........ You'll find Dave and other News Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other News experts at News.gather.com.

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Comments: 119

Col. George W. May 3, 2008, 12:58am EDT
Does it make a difference which one of those three are finally elected. Not really. Once you pluck the feathers they are all the same chicken. The all will leave our troops in Iraq and Afghanstan for a few more years. They all agree with our current foreign policy of interference in other nation's affairs. The all subscribe to the policies of the UN. All are part of the UFR. All have the same phylosophy of big government and ignore the Constitution.

In other words, One is as BAD as the other. Our choice seems to be which of the worst possable candidates for President do we select.

We had our chance and it is not completely lost to elect a qualified candidate, actually probably several. ONE remains fighting for the Nation and that candidate is the ONE candidate Bush & Co., the NeoCon Republican Party, the Democratic Party and the Main Stream Media are doing everything they can to stop.

"We the People of the United States, In order to form a more perfect union"
Need DR. RON PAUL
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Ron B. May 3, 2008, 1:02am EDT
Good one Dave.
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Donna M. May 3, 2008, 1:16am EDT
Excellent posting...and personally I think the Reverend added some fire to his comment regarding "the working man" and the two have created some serious doubt about who Mr. Obama REALLY is.....but he should have been prepared for this kind of thing...he keeps telling everyone he is more than capable and ready and has enough experience to take on one of the most difficult - thankless jobs in the world..for a lot less pay than he would get at many corporations...and just those 2 incidents threw him a curve...and there are still ripples...he is NOT ready...could be in a nother 4-6 years...but he dose not have the tough skin he needs to be successful...

I heard about the Indiana ruling tonight regarding the ID....I think it is just another way to control, and track - and not necessarily for the right reason...how are they going to get the invilids, lots of elderly who do not drive, people working 2 jobs that cant get to where they have to go to have their photo taken....it is going to control who votes and who dose not and I think it is wrong and against our constitution...if someone shows up at the voting booth, and has ID of any kind with their address on it..that should do...or thru the mail with the returned envelope...for registering...

There will always be a few who will find a way to get around the system, but the ID control is totally un called for and personally I believe it is a Republican choice. . . .
Some are using it as an excuse to keep the illegal immigrants from voting...that wont even put a dent in it...to go thru the expense and difficulty it will be for many citizens to vote....
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Ruth MacGill May 3, 2008, 1:18am EDT
Great article Dave. I can't find even one point that I disagree with you.
Col. George - Not enough of "We the people" coughed up enough money to put Ron Paul in front.
I think Barack Obama is our Great Tan Hope. He may have similar views tothose of Clinton, but he, himself, is different. He inspires hope for change in this old white woman. I used to like McCain, but he has changed his views on things. Besides, the Republicans have done terrible damage to our country under Bush. It's time for a shakeup throughout the government.
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Jerry Kays May 3, 2008, 2:17am EDT
I have seen countless candidates promise everything under the sun and then some ... few have even made an attempt to follow through when given the chance ... what's so special about these folks now ? I think the Reverend himself would be the better president.
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Felix R. May 3, 2008, 2:21am EDT
Obama is D.O.A. he was outed by his' reverend for the phony and liar that he is. Looks like another four years for the Republicans.

Thank you, Reverend Wright, but, the groupies are not paying attention. Let's leave them to their' fate.
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Karl Leuba May 3, 2008, 2:21am EDT
Good article, and the rhetorical device of the opening question is excellent, but YOU failed to answer it adequately, at least in my opinion.

The guy in coveralls under the Obama bus is the mechanic, and he has a full tool box. The Wright DEBACLE is not a debacle even with very small letters. The timing is perfect. Indiana is probably Clinton's, with or without Jeremiah. So if Obama does not drive off the minority vote in North Carolina, this round of Primaries will go exactly as predicted, and while the point spread may not be made, the fact that the bright light of the political frog hunters is on him now is a good thing for Obama, and to a lesser extent the Democrats. This issue of Obama's religious friend is, or may be damaging. I have yet to hear any quotes from the Radical Right Wing Preachers McCain has courted for the past year or so. Jerry Falwell is dead, but his radical conservative religious bretheren are still alive and kicking all manner of sand in American faces. Wasn't it Pat Robertson who suggested nuking the State Department headquarters in Foggy Bottom, Washington DC? And that other guy who suggested that 9/11 was the fault of liberal Americans who did not want their children indoctrinated with creation "science?" They are all being courted for favor by the McCain "Straight Talk Express" machine. It was McCain who made the commencement speech at Liberty University after all. And that school is a focus for the radical fundamentalist movement in the USA. Those people have said some pretty awful things about not only the US in general, but the Constitution, the Supreme Court, the Justice System, Congress, The state department and of course Gays, Women, and God's wrath on us.

This drawn out Democratic Nominating process must be frustrating the RNC. They can't possibly develop a strategy for swift boating both Obama and Clinton, and if Obama keeps getting his negatives out of the way this far ahead of the November General Election it is going to be very hard for the Republican mud machine to come up with anything new that is not also so caustic to the slingers that no one will be able to use it without self destructing.
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jJack Midknight May 3, 2008, 2:39am EDT
Everything and everyone is suspect in the world of Demagogue David-- conspiracy here conspiracy there, Demagogue David sees a conspiracy everywhere.

I wonder if Demagogue David even knows how many companies make the machines for elections worldwide ??

Notice also he carefully used the word "paper" when speaking of a "trail" that doesn't exist. Why ??? Because he probably knows, or should know, there is an ELECTRONIC DIGITAL PATH to follow, no problem.

Sad, the way a Demagogue is forced to live, bottled up in fear, frustration and anger.
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Kathryn E. May 3, 2008, 2:55am EDT
From a PR standpoint, I think Obama may be toast. That he has continued to add superdelegates is a bit of a mystery. I am hoping for a Billary resurgence.
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K K. May 3, 2008, 3:09am EDT
I hope he has another 4 years in Government before he gets a look at the top Job again. Rudd got in in Australia with no background and no experience and since he has been in, food has increased by over $139 a week. and every decision they have made has cost the tax payer money out of their pocket, now they are going to scrap a lot of the benefits that we were given back to us from our hard work, Carers payments are going, Baby Bonus will be slashed, First Home owners scheme will be cut back. When before under Howard Australia was run very well.

A warning to Americans to vote for Experience!!!!!!!!
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David K. May 3, 2008, 4:15am EDT
Another thoughtful article Dave, and Karl's comment is also quite thought provoking.

Ruth above said "He may have similar views to those of Clinton, but he, himself, is different." This is the key. The differences in policy between the two Democratic candidates are minimal and inconsequential, but the differences in approach are dramatic. Obama thinks, Clinton manipulates. Obama inspires, Clinton conspires.

Read or watch his interview with Chris Wallace of Fox News. His answers aren't contrived, they are real. They are condescending, they are honest. Contrast this with one opponent whom recent polls show the majority of people believe is dishonest. Contrast this with another opponent who has for political necessity somehow embraced the very people he not long ago felt were extremists in his party.

Obama has the right kind of experience. He has lived a life of seeing how the worst in America can be thrown at a person, yet shown what can be accomplished in that same America. This experience has allowed him to see the complexity in dealing with real problems for real people, while others play the typical Washington political game that benefits only themselves.

The gas tax holiday is a perfect example. Clinton and McCain opt to offer abject pandering, while Obama opts to address the issue head on. Clinton and McCain's ideas would hurt the very Americans they claim to help. Ironically, their proposal isn't even real. They offer words for legislation that will never even be considered, in part because all economists and Congress see it as opportunistic pandering designed to coerce a few more votes. They see it as a catastrophic and inane concept. Yet Clinton and McCain are quick to offer it because they believe it will confuse enough people in the short term to garner them short term gains in votes. Yes, this is what Washington experience gets you - create the illusion of short term gain (not even real gain) with massive medium and long term negative consequences, solely to help their own political gains.

Yes, Obama has exactly the right kind of experience. The kind that voters can trust to work for their benefit and not the typical Washington experience that benefits only the typical Washington politicians.
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PONHROS (please allow me to introduce myself) ONE May 3, 2008, 4:20am EDT
A paper trail, although jJack's claim of a digital one is as laughable as he is, is not truly going to solve anything. In Ohio, the courts ordered all ballots preserved from the 2004 vote. Fifty-eight out of eighty-six Republican controlled election boards destroyed them anyway. We need impartial monitoring, like a third world country. Our leaders cannot be trusted anymore, period.
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David B. May 3, 2008, 6:59am EDT
"If the dirty tricksters could pull that one off, maybe they can coral a significant number of voters into believing that a patriotic, clean-living, American Christian is, in fact, a closet Muslim who hates white people."

It's Barry's own words ... and lack of them ... that will be his undoing, David. His actual policy positions, when he deigns to put them forward with any specificity, are too far to the left of the political spectrum to garner enough political support from the American voting public. The Rev. Wright debacle is really nothing more than a side-show, although it does provide a fairly good barometer of Barry's judgement.

No, David, Barry's undoing will be his own words, not the words of others.
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pamela r. May 3, 2008, 7:55am EDT
Every time i think about going to the polls it seems like i'm picking the lesser of the evils--but you are most correct whn you say America loves an underdog--we shall just have towait and see. I always hated the campaigning and the mud slinging that goes with it--i don't want to be bombarded with the crap--i do my own research--and i make what i think is the best possinble choice--why do these people think the rest of America is so much different--they all make the same promises and they all fail to follow thru 99% of the time.
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Joe T. May 3, 2008, 8:35am EDT
As misguided as Rev. Wright is - I don't see that he is Obama's problem. I think that Obama has not proven that he can deliver. Say what you will about Hillary but she gets things done. McCain will only give us four more years of the same. I believe that the American voters know this. Obama is not the best candidate and that is a shame because this is the year for the Democrats.
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Wayne B. May 3, 2008, 8:57am EDT
What is really sad is that who ever is finally elected will not do anything for the working people but continue as always in the past, put more stress and strain on them.

It gripes me that the people that built and continue to build this country are the ones that pay the most taxes, have the hardest time trying to make ends meet and are shelved after every election until the next one. They have NO voice in congress because they can not afford to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get legislation past that would actually help them like the big boys do.

Do you really believe that any of these candidates really give a crap whether or not "Johnny" worker can afford the fuel to get back and forth to work or not, of course they don't, other wise something would have been done way before now.

It just really bothers me that everytime something is past in Washington, the working man just gets buried a little deeper. If not for the working man WHO would be making the salaries for these pompus politicians?

www.UpScaleInteriorDesigns.com
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Richard B. May 3, 2008, 8:59am EDT
As folks need to think, and the Democratic party will pick who will run against McCain, it's up to them. I'm still a republican, but still like Hillary.
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Doris B. May 3, 2008, 9:14am EDT
Hear is my two cents if anyone wants it. I find Obama to be of good value and morals. He has taken alot that such a proper man should not have to take. I feel he should be our next President and ask Hillary to be his vice-president. Then we would have a very powerful team if they can meet in the midle for the sake of our nation.
Thank you,
Doris Anne Beaulieu
http://www.LifesUltimateTest.com
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Robert H. May 3, 2008, 9:38am EDT
I think Obama will survive all of this and will be the Democratic Nominee. Judging by some of McCain's latest remarks, I think he will do fine against the GOP machine.
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Alan D. May 3, 2008, 9:40am EDT
Great analysis.

I don't know what to make of Wright lately. I saw her on Bill Moyer's show and I was sympathetic. Then at the NAACP dinner, I was already outraged by his tone and body language. His example using JFK with that E-Ask line was pretty dumb considering how the Kennedy family came out for Obama after SC, where it was fair to say that the Clinton had successfully transformed Obama into the "black candidate." Had that OP-Ed or Carolyne not come out the day after followed by Teddy's endorsement, I don't know if we would be talking about Obama today.

Anyway, I agree with the analysis of the timing. It could not have been better. Before Super Tuesday and he would be doomed, during summer and you have no time to correct things. However it will remain an issue whether McCain wants to or not. They have nothing else, that's the bottom line. Does not matter who the candidate of the democrats is. The republicans have no choice but to focus on other stuff. What are they going to talk about, the economy? It certainly won't be McCain doing the talking.
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L S. May 3, 2008, 9:43am EDT
Dave >>> Don't forget the swift-boat gang that was able to convince gullible Americans that a legitimate hero was a phony coward, while supporting a presidential candidate who ducked a combat role with a controversial stint in the National Guard and a vice presidential candidate who succeeded in getting a series of deferments, five in all, until he became too old to be called up.

Lou >>> Don't forget, the guy whom Dave calls a hero is a confessed war criminal.

By the way, Kerry joined the Navy Reserves in an attempt to "duck a combat roll" -- it is just that his plan did not work out.

He is a lying phony who claimed Nixon sent him to Cambodia during Christmas 1968 -- a month before Nixon took office -- and that event was seared, seared into Kerry's memory.

His honorable discharge, that used to be posted on his Web site, but not anymore, is dated February 16, 1978. But Kerry's six year military commitment began on February 18, 1966. His discharge should have been dated in 1972. That is, unless Kerry sought to have a less-than-honorable discharge upgraded after Jimmy Carter took office in 1977 and began wholesale upgrading of less-than-honorable discharges.

Don't get me wrong, Kerry can easily explain why the discrepancy in dates, he simply chooses not to. He could release his records -- oh wait -- he did release his records -- but I meant ALL of his records -- oh wait -- he did release all of his records to a trusted member of the Boston Globe. So now Kerry can honestly claim he released all his records to the press -- and his apologists buy that BS.

And finally, in 1982, in opposition to the wishes of his former wife, Julia Thorne, Kerry had their marriage annulled by the Roman Catholic Church -- after 18 years of marriage and two (2) children. What kind of upstanding man does that?
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Larry M. May 3, 2008, 10:38am EDT
Isn't it wonderful how money can distort what should be a straightforward attempt to select the best candidate? Isn't it wonderful that of all the major problems that the United States faces in the long and short term that we are concerned with such trivialities? By "wonderful" I mean, of course, doesn't it fill you with wonder how stupid all this is? If you find this whole travesty disgusting please read Invisible Hand for a complete and final solution to these political shows.
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Jeff H. May 3, 2008, 10:48am EDT
I think Karl Rove was right to suggest that Obama will have to deal with his nutty pastor for the remainder of the year. Let's not forget that he defended The Rev. and likened his views to that of his own grandmother, claiming he could not disown either of them. It was only after the Rev. was unapologetic and that focus groups showed a negative impact on Obama's campaign did he do a 180.

Your analasis of swiftboaters was a bit scewed as well. Swiftboaters were signatories of a condemnation letter reflecting John Kerry's actions when he came back from the war, were he likened the actions of his comrades to crazy terrorists. It was all on the record and there is nothing wrong with pointing it out. It was just as newsworthy as Bush's National Guard service.
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John Philipp May 3, 2008, 11:14am EDT
Excellent article, Dave.

I'm so tired of The Nomination That Wouldn't Die I have nothing to say

other than I can't imagine sentencing anyone, even if you liked him intensely, to four years as president with Hillary riding shotgun.
(Not meant as an attack on Hillary but the idea of trying to control her as vice-president boggles the mind. )

The only worse situation I can think of is marrying Dr. Laura's son.
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Debra C. May 3, 2008, 11:37am EDT
On Bill Moyers show Rev. Wright seemed supportive ... subsequent speeches make him any but. Obama did himself a favour by distancing, but it is a hollow favour -- he lost a long term friend (remember his rationalle for not distancing himself a few months ago?). The bulldogs who have been keeping them going may have a long list of acquaintances, but I suspect they have few real friends.

As to the politics, the lack of recount potential in voting machines does concern me. The 2000 election is still to close, historically ... I am not sure if the confidence in elections (or the Supreme Court) will return anytime soon. Your point about the 2004 election is equally well made -- I applaud Kerry for not contesting (because of 2000) but wish he would have for the sake of the country. This system is in peril if we have another close election and the suggestion of fraud rises again.
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 11:59am EDT
Can you imagine the Democratic party having a future in this country if they took the nomination away from Barack Obama who seems destined to win at this point in terms of most measures and gave it to Clinton, and Clinton loses?

With the spread of 5 points in the polls at a critical juncture under controversy, that will mean nothing in November. This puts me in mind of one of those ferries full of people where the passengers rush from side to side and eventually capsize the boat
disasterously.

Why is it not just as valid to say that Clinton has no chance of winning the nomination without spoiling the Democratic unity and so should resign her campaign and work to unify the Democrats under Obama, than it is to argue that the nomination should go to Clinton because of Obama's "Wright" problem making Obama less electable?

We can see what a clown Wright is. I am not that much behind Obama at this point, though I know what is right, and to me the idea that Obama is in collusion with such ideas is absurd and should be easy to move beyond.

I have heard the kind of comments sent out in the right wing media repeadedly now so many times, to get something to stick and cause doubts. It is not working, and while the strength of Republican efforts as disconcerting, they are desperate and it shows.
The only think they have to say substantively is that things are not that bad.

Will 80% of Americans be dismissed and turned around by repeatedly claiming how great things are in America now? I don't think so.
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Clarke M. May 3, 2008, 12:20pm EDT
Dave,
Excellent article. I think the fact Obama got this far and has got much more money now than Clinton and McCain indicates Wright and race is not a significant factor. He himself is the issue. Wright's outburst may help him.

It is still possible Clinton may reach the Convention with more of the popular vote. Her campaign stupidly neglected the caucuses in many states. Obama's organization got delegates by concentrating on them.

None of the three candidates have distinguished themselves in discussing the real issues and all have made impossible promises. Obama's Philadelphia speech on race was an exception: but that is a subsidiary issue (as was JFK's Catholicism). It is up to Obama and Clinton to keep race out of their campaign .

The Rev. Wright said, "I am a pastor, not a politician." The historical narrative of black Americans is as valid an account of American history as is the white account. They are different. The black church has played a chief role . Liberation, Transformation and Reconciliation are powerful ideas that are rooted in the black experience. The Rev. Wright's ministry has expressed them in word and deed.

His interview on PBS with Bill Moyers was sober as was his speech to the National Press Club. His personal anger and hurt were evident in the question period following the speech.* It was unfortunate . Pride . The Rev. Wright took attacks on him as attacks on his church.

I can't help feeling Obama hurt his pastor's pride some months ago by cancelling a public prayer and changing it to a private one. Perhaps he could have repaired that hurt before the media made an issue of Obama's relationship with his pastor, which, after all, Obama had written of at length in his best-selling books, years before. The Audacity of Hope , the title of one, was a credited quote from Wright.

The Hebrew prophets were not shy about criticizing their people. The pastor's rhetoric is not unpatriotic or racist if understood and heard in context. Recently,I heard Andrew Young , who served as our UN Ambassador , mayor of Atlanta etc remark he had used some of the same extreme statements that one hears at times from Wright when he needed to win the cooperation of outraged blacks in Atlanta and elsewhere in order to prevent violence. Young praised Wright and Farrakhan, although he was (still is?) supporting Hillary Clinton. Jimmy Carter knows the sermons in black churches: he has heard them many times. He has said he has heard the same narrative that Wright preaches and is not offended by it.
_______________________

* Right after 9-11-2001 , the former US Ambassador to Iraq, Mr. Peck said "The chickens have come to roost " on Fox News. The next day the Rev.Wright referred to Peck in his Sunday sermon in speaking of 9/11. Many of the questions from the media at the Press Club were from people who hadn't read or heard his sermons, which have been available for years on CD and DVD. Wright's angry responses perhaps did more to help Obama than hurt him.
However, for many blacks dissing one's pastor is a no-no. It is a sign of a "bargainer," as some consider Oprah.
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Sandy F. May 3, 2008, 12:34pm EDT
He can't DELIVER? Deliver what? All candidates control is money and superdeligate votes and Obama sure delivers both. As for who the heck primary and caucus votes go to, there's no rhyme or reason to that, I think the msm delivers that.

He doesn't have EXPERIENCE? Experience in what? NO politician alive has experience in turning the country from the neo-con view of world control and domination to the Constitutional dictates of a truly free democratic republic.

I don't think the Clintons realize when they tout her experience, that they bring into question who was in charge during the first two terms of their dynasty-- our elected official or his wife?

I think this extra long campaign was a disasterous idea. With all the really good candidates not even getting their feet, and our money, under them before they were marginalized by the powerful corporations behind the so called main stream media, the 3 remaining are in big trouble. No human candidate can stay in the limelight for that long and not produce scandals that will sell all the news unfit to print.

Not to mention the billions being wasted on politics by rich white men intent on controlling the election and therefore, the world. Just from the nature of the contest the really good statespersons who might have been available for our votes in November either didn't run or were eliminated by the fact they only were funded by true patriotic Americans. Is there anyone who doesn't yet understand that big money from shadowy sources is controlling this country?

I have one word for those wondering why we still haven't seen strong laws to protect the integrity of the US vote--lobbiests. They don't want it so we don't get it. Follow the money trail to find the skunks in the works. I have another word or two to avoid voting machines-- absentee ballots. They only work if your County voter registrar and or clerk is honest, of course. Ours is.
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Richard Owl Mirror May 3, 2008, 12:34pm EDT
Excellent commentary Dave
What I don't understand is why the american voter doesn't yet realize that Hillary Clinton is using the same democrat detractors who attacked her husbands Presidency. I believe it is these forces which are working in the shadows to subvert an Obama nomination. One must ask why the Clintons would crawl into bed with their most ardent arch-enemies in order to secure the nomination of Hillary.
You mention John McCain not having an effect in quelling those who are conducting the slime campaigns yet Hillary has jumped into bed with these same people and nothing much is being made of it.

Who else coulda woulda shoulda seen this coming?
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 12:35pm EDT
Clarke, whatever feelings Wright might have had about Obama or perceptions of being dissed, don't you think he should have the overall picture that this is politics. At this point no one wants to hear a peep out of Wright, but I wonder what he would say he thought he was doing? The thing is ... Wright is not the story, Wright is just an aquaintance that a poltician made too much of at some point and got bit by the association ... how does one succeed in politics of life without doing the same?
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 12:42pm EDT
One really just needs to keep in mind, where all this crap orginates from. Before some BS likes this takes off, remember how many variations and repetitions you see in the media to hone it and get it right? Limbaugh urging Republicans to interfere on Clinton's side to sew havoc in the Democratic side? And McCain gets to stay above it all ... because Hillary is still in the race. I supported her and gave her money, which I have not done with Obama ... but she needs to go, there is nothing for her in this race, or the Democrats if she keeps this up.
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Jeff H. May 3, 2008, 1:04pm EDT
Bruce I disagree. The only way we can get the honest truth about democrat politicians is when they are running against one another. This really has been good for America to see who will pop out of the democrat dominating process. I say to Hillary, stay strong! Keep up the good fight.
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Karen M. May 3, 2008, 1:10pm EDT
Obama will have to deal with Wright throughout the campaign. Anyone who thinks this is going away doesn't understand the media. The denunciation of Wright will represent a "flip-flop" on Obama's part, difficult to explain. The media will explore how a man who once said that he could no more disown Wright, than his grandmother, could now suddenly run from him like he had the plague--this is not going away anytime soon.
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 1:11pm EDT
When there is still a race I would agree, but there is not.

Jeff, apparently you do not see the reality of the situation, or more likely consistent with your past tactics, you are a republican seeking to interfere.
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 1:13pm EDT
Karen ... I like John McCain, but take a look at McCain ... flip-flopping on his part is so much greater of an issue - almost an expertise, just scratch the surface of what he has done on abortion, immigration, torture, the war ... he has a major flip-flopping liability.
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Diana Raabe May 3, 2008, 2:10pm EDT
I have to say I'm entirely bored by that reverend who shall remain nameless. Enough already!
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Richard B. May 3, 2008, 2:24pm EDT
So!

Well the republicans in Indiana select Barack to be the nominee?
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luckky _. May 3, 2008, 2:37pm EDT
~~ Does it matter?~~


The right wing news media have no problem with McLame's association with bigoted hate filled preachers like Haggee, Parsley, and the Moonies. Therefore, Obama shouldn't be having a problem with Wright.

But he does.

As always, it is society's double standards that are the problem.
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Bret W. May 3, 2008, 2:37pm EDT
Bruce K. -

There's quite a few of us Reagan Democrats who want a Centrist candidate.............and Obama is nowhere near that. It's purely a Hillary vs. McCain game. I'd say thats the majority of Americans nowdays.
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Elizabeth Madrigal May 3, 2008, 2:50pm EDT
Dave, I love to read your commentary as you say it like it is. I do think the American people, however, or at least 50% plus 1 voter, will pick Obama as the only viable president. He is the only person running who is trustworthy, and these McCarthyism tactics have grown old with the most of us. Yes, there will be the ignorant, or shall we 'shallow' voters, who will respond to racism or fall for the lies/innuendo/ attacks, but the voters this year include lots of young, sophisticated minds and kids who grew up in integrated society and lots of old, experienced ones who can still see the Emperor is wearing no clothes.

Believe in us, Dave, just the way Barack Obama does. He will win.
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 2:59pm EDT
Bret, if Obama was knocked out you know you would be making the same complaint about Hillary Clinton. These two are almost entirely equivalent. It matters little in terms of position, and it matters little in terms of political libiliaties, and it matters little in terms of who the Republicans can attack harder .... the only thing that can make a different at this point is how long and how hard they attack each other. I think Clinton should pack it in and help the party. It is hard for her and Bill to see that, but long time friends are telling them that by what they are doing and who they are supporting.
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Bret W. May 3, 2008, 3:36pm EDT
Bruce K. -

If this was a Hillary vs. McCain contest, it would be much more difficult. With Obama so far out in LeftyVille, it makes this really easy.

The one big issue where Hillary had balls and voted the right way was Iraq. Obama opted the safe strategy, but was dead wrong. I just wish Hillary would come out and say "yep, you're damn right I voted for the Iraq war............and I'd do it again for the good of the country".

I have a feeling something like that might occur if she somehow manages to win the nomination. Obama is incredibly weak on this issue. I have no idea how any military man could support the Socialist Obama.
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Jeff H. May 3, 2008, 3:43pm EDT
Richard B.
I think the new strategy in operation chaos is to vote Obama in Indiana, but there are two conflicting theories. The first theory is that Obama is damaged enough to where it is safe letting him win the nomination. He's damaged goods and not even a shell of the man people thought he was. The second theory is to have republicans continue to vote for Hillary to keep the fight going into DNC convention. Although Hillary is a stronger candidate, African Americans will never forgive the democrat party for sacking the first legitimate Black candidate. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

Bruce
I am a concerned American and I would rather call my participation in the democratic process as patriotic not interference. I will admit however that you were right about Hillary and Obama when nobody would listen. Good call.
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Prima Donna May 3, 2008, 5:11pm EDT
Anyone who thinks John McCain will run a clean campaign against Obama is kidding him or herself. He is just looking the other way while others are doing his dirty work. One of his many big supporters is T. Boone Pickens, the oil tycoon and top 50 hedge fund manager, who funded, in large part, Bush's Swiftboat Campaign. What we're seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg.

I have faith that the American people, like Obama, will rise above it and stay focused on the issues. Let's hope so anyway, for the good of our country.
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Clarke M. May 3, 2008, 5:20pm EDT
bruce k.,
You wrote: "Clarke, whatever feelings Wright might have had about Obama or perceptions of being dissed, don't you think he should have the overall picture that this is politics. At this point no one wants to hear a peep out of Wright, but I wonder what he would say he thought he was doing? The thing is ... Wright is not the story, Wright is just an aquaintance that a poltician made too much of at some point and got bit by the association ... how does one succeed in politics of life without doing the same?"
>>>>
Not my point. Wright is irrelevant. Perhaps Hillary "has found her voice, " too late, perhaps, because of a terrible strategy. So Obama gets the nomination . Obama's problem is that he hasn't found his. He can't blame Hillary or Wright.
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Bret W. May 3, 2008, 6:01pm EDT
Wright is already under the bus, but this week Obama crawled under there with him.

Hillary looks resurgent in the face of the ghastly reversal of fortune of Obama.

Meanwhile, McCain just keeps looking Presidential and ignoring what we in the Democratic party are doing. His strategy seems to be working, as he has been climbing the polls consistently.
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Sophiya S. May 3, 2008, 9:38pm EDT
seems like Hillary will be our next president
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 11:54pm EDT
Bret:
> I just wish Hillary would come out and say "yep, you're
> damn right I voted for the Iraq war............and I'd do it
> again for the good of the country".

I wish Hillary would do that too Bret ... it would end this stalemate toot sweet!

But seriously, there is a much deeper discussion there that
will never be thought out. The war in Iraq has been mismanged
in about every way possible. It is not cost effective in any of its
goals, and we are stuck there.

I do not think any of the major contenders here are right on
their takes on this ... Bush was not right, Cheney, Rumsfled,
...
Clinton, Obama, McCain. There is enough wrong to go around.

What you are seeing in McCain is hardly presidential, it is more
aloof. He thinks he can skate through this without touching anything
personally. He can condemn the ads about Obama, and see them
run at the same time. Probably because of what happened to him
in South Carolina.

McCain is getting the Bush treatment, and I hope the Democrats
will be smart enough to counter it - that is the look aloof, sound
dumb, and seem pleasant and let the Demcrats lose their cools.

Obama is still rising, just at a slower rate, and Republicans and
the media want to make that seem like he is losing his lustre.
I don't think that is what is happening.

Obama is put in a situation where he now has to be very
clever and patient.

The thing is and this is skipped over totally .... why did
Wright do what he did?

I surmise that Wright is either braindamaged in some way,
drugged or mentally ill, or he is a CIA or FBI mole. This
is the only thing that fits such a huge screw up, and black
people are rejecting him and mad as hell.

At the end of the 60's the FBI was infiltrating and destroying
the Black Panthers and radical groups, and they had to
see it replaced with something. Wright is a Marine, and
Marines have very permanent training, almost brainwashing.
Every black Marine .. not many ... I have met has been
extremely right wing ... anyway, just some thoughts on
the matter.
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Prima Donna May 3, 2008, 11:56pm EDT
Brett, I don't believe for a minute that you're a democrat, moderate or not.
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Bruce K. May 3, 2008, 11:58pm EDT
Sigriet ... I think if Hillary gets the nomination it will lose the
election for the Democrats.

The worst case scenario would be too destructive to the
party, because if the party elites decide that Obama cannot
win, and make the call for Clinton, and she loses ... the
Demcrats will simple be dead for good. No one will ever
trust them or be inspired by them again.

Think about it, if they need to change the nominee, it will
be to remove both Clinton and Obama, because they are so
equal and replace them with someone like Gore, who is not
running, or someone else.

The Clintons must see this, so what is the purpose of this
song and dance we are seeing?

The reason I am now accepting Obama as a candidate is
because it is clear that the "establishment" definitely sees
him a a threat ... and to me that is a good thing.
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Jeff H. May 4, 2008, 12:26am EDT
Bruce I agree that the current backlash on Obama is from the establishment. I liked Obama because of it. But hanging with kooks for most of your adult life will create a backlash regardless.

It was reported that a Hillary supporter was the one behind putting a microphone behind the mouth of the racist Wright but he is a very intelligent man despite his race baiting typical liberal world view. I think that like most people.....he is for sale. He seems to have been bought and paid for but don't blame government. Blame the sleaze bags that have been doing this for 30 years.
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Bret W. May 4, 2008, 12:51am EDT
Prima Donna -

"Brett, I don't believe for a minute that you're a democrat, moderate or not."

In the case of Bret W. (me) it doesn't matter what you think - it only matters what I do. If you'd like, you can join me at a Conservative Democratic caucus meeting where you can meet hundreds of Democrats who think like I do. Maybe that would convince you that there are plenty of people out here in Illinois who repudiate the Left Wing way of thinking in the Democratic party.
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Bret W. May 4, 2008, 12:54am EDT
Bruce K. -

" Bret:
> I just wish Hillary would come out and say "yep, you're
> damn right I voted for the Iraq war............and I'd do it
> again for the good of the country".

I wish Hillary would do that too Bret ... it would end this stalemate toot sweet!"


I think you might be shocked at how much support Hillary would get if she did this. Conservatives and Moderates would flock to her side. She doesn't have the Left side of the spectrum (Obama clearly has all that), so it really wouldn't be a loss for her to just do this. I wish she would.
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 1:00am EDT
I think Hillary would be shocked, and I think she has thought about it, and it is in fact why she is still in politics - the guts to support the war and be moderate. To bad it was not a good decision in hindsight. I think it was a better practical decision than what Obama did, but not as correct. The problem is that the government runs on concensus, not one guy being right.

What I fault the Republicans more even than going into the war, is using the war as an opportunity to take poltical control of the country, and that is why they have to be leave power - they are way out of control and too arrogant, and making huge mistakes because of it.

Obama is doing well with many on the right. So many on the right are angry at the stuff Bush has done ... it is practically Bush against the whole country on some of these things. Clinton has to handle the anti-war Democrats gently, as Obama has to handle the pro-war, but anti-facist Republicans gingerly as well.
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Bret W. May 4, 2008, 1:05am EDT
Bruce K. -

"The thing is and this is skipped over totally .... why did
Wright do what he did?

I surmise that Wright is either braindamaged in some way,
drugged or mentally ill, or he is a CIA or FBI mole. This
is the only thing that fits such a huge screw up, and black
people are rejecting him and mad as hell."


Wright is no CIA mole. Could it be that Wright's views are illegitimate? Could it be that when the white-hot spotlight of scrutiny is thrown on them, they just don't hold water?

If you believe in the theory of Occam's Razor (All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best), then it's safe to assume that Jeremiah Wright is an egotistical loudmouth and these are his 15 minutes of fame. In a year, he'll be the punchline of many jokes, and then he'll be largely remembered as the guy who cost Obama the Presidency.
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James C. May 4, 2008, 1:05am EDT
It seems like the swiftboaters have gone to work already in the character of LS above. His effort to condemn not only the potential Democratic candidate with innuendos, half truths and outright false information is being exercised against a candidate from four years ago who is not running! If they tell it enough times it will be believed by some.

Kerry was an actual decorated veteran of the Vietnam war and in making all the false claims about his service, the detractors denigrate every veteran who served in that action and cast shadows across any awards they may have received.

It would appear that much of the dirt is being brought to the public at an early enough time that the candidate can repudiate, correct or explain these underhanded efforts to undermine the reputations of good people, while ignoring the obvious lack of military experience in the opposing candidates.

I have no doubt that the Rove people and swiftboaters will attempt the work this religion thing right up to the election, but I believe the American electorate will have had it with this character assassination and will render it ineffective. Of course, Rove will try to bring up something to hit the Democratic candidate in his strongest suite. Meanwhile, LS and others of that mindset will be out test driving each new effort and disinformation that comes along!
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 1:12am EDT
I agree James, Kerry did not really stand up llike he should have to this kind of crap, but he should not have to. Americans ought to have the class to not listen to this stuff and to shut it down.

I have been wondering if the Democrats are prolonging the primary in order to shorten the time the Republican can smear them, thus forcing them to be more obivous and aggressive about it and in your face to the American people so they can see it more easily.

I do not even bother listing to LS's kind of BS.
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Elsie Duggan May 4, 2008, 1:27am EDT
I have worried in election years at times, but I am scared to death of this one, I have no idea how any of these three became the best we have to chose from.
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Jerry Kays May 4, 2008, 3:38am EDT
Bret says: " Meanwhile, McCain just keeps looking Presidential " ...

Not to anyone with eyesight, a sense of decency, or a brain ... but then there were enough of these to prevent GWB from setting a new "standard" of "looking presidential" ... only by that new standard would I agree wholeheartedly ... "Meanwhile, McCain just keeps looking Presidential " ... for the neoCON lovers anyway.
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Jerry Kays May 4, 2008, 3:45am EDT
"not" enough ...
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L S. May 4, 2008, 8:22am EDT
James C >>> It seems like the swiftboaters have gone to work already in the character of LS above ... Meanwhile, LS and others of that mindset will be out test driving each new effort and disinformation that comes along!

Lou >>> Now that we have established that the swiftboaters have gone to work on my character, and that we have established my mindset spews disinformation, Kerry is a confessed war criminal. Deal with it.

That info did not come from Rove, the Swiftboaters, or any political opponent, it came from Kerry's own lips.

April 18, 1971, NBC News, Meet The Press:
MR. Crosby Noyes (Washington Evening Star):
Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

John F. Kerry's response:
There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions ...

Lou, again >>> And five days later, in some kind of fatigue looking outfit, he repeated the same charge and confession UNDER OATH to a Senate Committee.



James C >>> Kerry was an actual decorated veteran of the Vietnam war and in making all the false claims about his service, the detractors denigrate every veteran who served in that action and cast shadows across any awards they may have received.

Lou >>> You mean like Kerry calling his band of brothers war criminals does not denigrate every veteran who served in that action???

I made no claims about the medals that Kelly received (and did, or did not throw over the White House fence); I claimed his discharge was dated when it was dated -- and that he has offered no explanation. Deal with it.

I claimed he lied about President Nixon sending him to Cambodia in 1968, because I claimed Nixon was not the President in any part of 1968. Is that a half-truth or disinformation? We all hear him say, "I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me."

But mainly, to my unapproved mindset, Kerry had his 18 year marriage, that produced two children, annulled over the strenuous objections of his wife. That, and that alone, makes him a lowlife in my eyes -- your mileage may differ.

That annulment is not a half-truth or misinformation from Rove. Deal with it.

Getting a contested annulment in the Catholic Church is an expensive and difficult process, especially when there are little Catholics involved. It wasn't the Swiftboaters that made him do it, it was his own character flaws.



James C >>> information is being exercised against a candidate from four years ago who is not running!

Lou >>> As opposed to Demarcates who have been ranting about the failed policies of Bush, who is not running?



And finally, James, feel free to post the whole truth about anything I wrote.
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Randy W. May 4, 2008, 9:44am EDT
Ron Paul - Dennis Kucinich in 2112!

Dave has a point about the voting machines. Personally, I believe the machines are being manipulated from an alien mothership near Saturn, and there is nothing our inferior technology can do to stop them. The aliens may also be controlling Rev. Wright and Bill Clinton's recent speeches where they sabotaged the campaigns of the Democrat candidates. (/sarcasm)
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Karen M. May 4, 2008, 10:03am EDT
"Karen ... I like John McCain, but take a look at McCain ... flip-flopping on his part is so much greater of an issue - almost an expertise, just scratch the surface of what he has done on abortion, immigration, torture, the war ... he has a major flip-flopping liability."

Bruce K--I do not disagree, I am in fact undecided on this election. My point is to be realistic. Obama will have explaining to do on Wright matter, not perhaps on Wright's comments, but for his (Obama's) judgement. Obama, as we know, has touted his judgmental abilities over Clinton's.
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 1:08pm EDT
This is a Fox produced tempest in a teapot. The idea that Obama is tarred and feathered with Jeremiah Wright is really stupid, and Fox has more of this crap lined up, about Tony Rezko specifically.

If we knew the tiniest fraction of the underhanded dealings in politics we would also know that the Rezko thing is below average. I do not know how Obama plans to handle that one, but I do know that there are the same issues if you look deep enough on any of these people. What happened to the Bush insider trading at Harken Energy, of the fact that he was given 2 CEO jobs becuase of his father's influence.

Why are these issues trotted out like special things when this is Americans doing business and politics?

When I compare Obama and Clinton and McCain judgement, I think Obama does have a certain something I like. Demonstrated by the gas tax reaction. Transparencey in government. The question with Obama is can he continue to pull rabbits out of the hat to make up for inexperience, and flying debris?
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Chris W. May 4, 2008, 1:40pm EDT
Dave- there is much to what you say here. We can all marvel at the poverty of political discourse both with the rev wright and the swiftboat vets for so-called truth.

On the other hand, nobody ever lost an election by underestimating the gullibility of the american redneck or the willingness of said voter to vote against his true long term interests. If that be class warfare, then let us make the most of it. Thank you American voters for 8 years of GWB, can we top that by deep sixing Obama, the candidate who has pandered the least and spouted the least amount of nonsense?
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Karen M. May 4, 2008, 1:45pm EDT
Good point Bruce. But remember, you may think Wright is stupid, but according to polls, it has had an effect. I really do think that Obama should have handled this matter definitively at the beginning. He incidentally indicated this on Meet The Press this morning.
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Cynthia C. May 4, 2008, 2:27pm EDT
Dave, Thanks for a decently written, intelligently conceived article. Also to James and Chris for some rational commentary.

Unfortunately, the people who suffer most from Republican policies are those who are easily duped into continuing to vote for those same policies. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
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John S. (arizona) May 4, 2008, 2:45pm EDT
If Americans truly love the underdog as you say, then McCain may fit that bill. He has been the underdog since day one in all this, and is the Republican candidate in spite of his own Party....
How ironic it is all beginning to look.
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Kimberly C. May 4, 2008, 2:57pm EDT
This Wright thing is really getting on my nerves!! Basically what it is implying that Barack Obama doesn't have a mind or spiritual conscious of his own and follows everything that someone else says or believes. I have friends that I love dearly and there is great good in them, but I don't follow everything that they believe or say. Doesn't mean I love them any less, we just have different opinions of what's right or wrong. Wright doesn't speak for Obama. Obama is a person who just like you and I speak and believe for ouselves. My mother raised me and I don't agree with everything she says, I've had teachers and professors who as a child and college student I didn't agree with everything they had to say and that was 6-7 hours a day ever weekday for 17 years. Give me a break.
If you really want to get real about it, go look at this website http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/20/201332/807/36/458633 and get the Senate voting record over the last year or so for Hillary and Barack. I took a deeper look into both of their policies and what they stood for. I found that Rev. Wright didn't have a voting record. You know why? He wasn't in the Senate and is not running for President. Strange huh? Go take a look for yourselves and then come back and talk about the real issues.
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Kimberly C. May 4, 2008, 3:06pm EDT
Oh, great commentary Dave as always, keep up the good work. my response was not generated towards you or anyone in particular. It just kills me that some people believe everything that the media puts in their face. They even have the nerve to call it the left wing media!! Unreal. The right wing owns the media. Being naive is not one of my strong points. Even as a child I knew you can't believe everything someone tells you. Rev. Wright does not speak for me and neither does the media. I think and speak for myself. Hopefully we all start doing the same.
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Bret W. May 4, 2008, 3:25pm EDT
Wright will continue to periodically climb out from under the bus and do what he did at the National Press Club to keep this ongoing saga alive.

So, who's under the bus? It depends on which day you're talking about............
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Jerry Kays May 4, 2008, 3:27pm EDT
AMEN Kimberly !!! Well Said !!!
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Kay & Snowy Cat May 4, 2008, 3:31pm EDT
I really hate the "bus" analogy, where did it come from?
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 4:09pm EDT
Chris W.:
> On the other hand, nobody ever lost an election by underestimating
> the gullibility of the american redneck or the willingness of said
> voter to vote against his true long term interests.

Chris, rednecks are not the only segment of the American public
that is gullible. The Democrats would not have such a hard time
getting elected of being believed if Liberals did not keep falling
for the same of BS just as much if not more than the rednecks.
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 4:16pm EDT
Kimberly, it is not that people are stupid, it is that the media
brainwashing works to a large extent. When you withold
real information and floof people's attention with "whatever"
they cannot help but have "whatever" in their mind when they
make a decisions .... which is usually some emotional thing.

There is a good book called "The Political Brain" that talks
about this, and how people let their emotional guards down
when given pictures and stories and narratives. Little
snippets like the one where Wright looks like a 1960's
Black Panther are charged to make people scared of
anything that is fired off by the network or association in
our brains.

It is a great tragedy that people everywhere do not realiez
how powerfully charged there emotions can be if they are
engineered right, and how short-circuiting of reason they
are.

The problem here is that these brainwashing images from
the media are protected as free-speech, when they are not.
Free-speech relatiev to a polical election should be the
presentation of ideas, not the implantation of emotions,
but how long if ever is it going to take for people to see
this?
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Bret W. May 4, 2008, 4:32pm EDT
Forget the rednecks, the truly gullible are the city-dwelling Liberal Democrats. They keep thinking that a Left Winger has enough popular appeal to get elected President.

If one ever does, he/she should ride into their Inauguration on a Unicorn..............
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John P. May 4, 2008, 7:13pm EDT
If Obama does get elected, I hope to hell that he makes better judgement calls in front of psychotic dictators than he does his advisors. He's smart, smooth, and an excellent speaker, but the guys he'd be going up against would smell his inexperience like blood in the water. Bush may not be the genius all southpaws want in the Oval Office, but at least the terrorists knew that he'd pull the trigger without pause.

Perhaps Obama would follow the example of another President who had little experience (and little judgement) -- Bill Clinton. They're almost mirror images -- BS artists who don't even know what's going on until the pen is put in their hand.
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Skip Bleecker May 4, 2008, 7:48pm EDT
What I still want to know is why isn't Karl Rove in jail yet? If any one else did half of the things he has done they would have been locked up years ago! Why is he still walking around, let alone working as a commentator on so called Fox News?

HE SHOULD BE IN JAIL!
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 8:40pm EDT
John ... Bush did not pull the trigger, he just spent the money.

Clinton also pulled the trigger in Yugoslavia.

I think all of the candidates recognize the we will most likely have at least one military struggle coming up, most likely in the Middle East, I think Obama wants to save military force for where it is effective.
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Bret W. May 4, 2008, 9:08pm EDT
Skip Bleeker -

First of all, is that your real name?

" What I still want to know is why isn't Karl Rove in jail yet?"

Well Skip, (if that is your real name..........accessing Doctor Strangelove), in this country you need to be charged with something before you go to jail. It's that pesky "Constitution thing". I'm sure you understand.
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Bruce K. May 4, 2008, 10:42pm EDT
As far as I'm concerned Rove committed treasonous felonies when he used private email systems for government work. I'm old fashioned that way ... I'd give him execution of solitary for life.
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James C. May 5, 2008, 2:23am EDT
LS,

Appreciate your response! However, I'll stick with what I said and let anyone who wishes interpret it as they see it. I see Kerry as a war hero based on the actions he took. His comments against the war do not reflect on the soldiers but on the leaders who put them in that untenable position. What he told when he was here after the war was simply the truth. You would have him tell it otherwise?

All the claims, repeated as fact, denigrating Kerry, are rather wasted at this point in time. But go ahead and dig them out as they will accomplish nothing. How can you compare a man who went to Vietnam and fought honorably to a man who weaseled out of any action where danger lay and skipped out on the last of his term? You know full well that is the case. And how can you compare that to Cheney, who managed to stay out of harms way with six deferments? However, lets move on to the current campaign. That one has been argued out completely and most people now recognize the swiftboat lies for what they were, an effort to prevent the election of Kerry.

"Swiftboating" has acquired a status of its own as a term describing false information or accurate but twisted information about a candidate. It will be a part of our vocabulary for a long time. I've no idea whether you actually believe the stuff you are peddling or simply throw it out there in an effort to create an injury to a political opponent. I suspicion the latter as you sound intelligent enough to discriminate fact from fiction.

As you are a died in the wool Democrat hater I know I cannot change your thinking by rational debate so I won't waste the effort. Personally, I have voted both Democrat and Republican over the years but never a straight ticket. I know that the persons running against my chosen candidate are good Americans and I respect them for what they are. I'll vote against them based on logic and consideration of the issues I view as important, and refuse to be tied to anyone's ideology.

There have been efforts to swiftboat McCain and I've commented on these the same as I comment on your swiftboat efforts. I condemn them all, that is not proper campaign discourse in my opinion.

Thanks LS!
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L S. May 5, 2008, 8:41am EDT
James >>> I see Kerry as a war hero based on the actions he took.

LS >>> I see him as a self-confessed war criminal -- based on his own admission to being one.



James >>> His comments against the war do not reflect on the soldiers but on the leaders who put them in that untenable position. What he told when he was here after the war was simply the truth. You would have him tell it otherwise?

Lou >>> Does James really believe that Kerry's superior, President Richard Nixon, put Kerry in an untenable position by ordering him into Cambodia in December of 1968? If he isn't telling the truth on that one, then why beleive him on somehting else?

I say, Kerry lied. And liar fits with the character of a guy who has numerous renditions of that medal tossing event and won't release all of his records without a weasle clause in there.



James >>> All the claims, repeated as fact, denigrating Kerry, are rather wasted at this point in time. But go ahead and dig them out as they will accomplish nothing.

Lou >>> As opposed to all the claims about him being a war hero are not a waste of time and will accomplish something?



James >>> How can you compare a man who went to Vietnam and fought honorably to a man who weaseled out of any action where danger lay and skipped out on the last of his term? You know full well that is the case. And how can you compare that to Cheney, who managed to stay out of harms way with six deferments?

Lou >>> When did I compare Kerry to Bush, Chenney, or Bill Clinton?!

My original post was mere a refutation of the claim that a self-confessed war criminal is a war hero.



James >>> most people now recognize the swiftboat lies for what they were, an effort to prevent the election of Kerry.

Lou >>> If that is true, then why have the Swiftboaters been dogging Kerry since the 1970s -- when no one knew he would be the Democratic nominee in 2004?

When he was just running for office in liberal Massachusetts, they were disorganized and totally ineffective, but when Kerry ran for President, the big boys at the GOP simply took advantage of what the Swiftboaters had been doing for decades. And by the way, the Swiftboaters still had no effect on the voters of Massachusetts.



James >>> I've no idea whether you actually believe the stuff you are peddling or simply throw it out there in an effort to create an injury to a political opponent.

Lou >>> I believe every word.

I believe he confessed to be a war criminal (I heard him say it, and I posted the transcript); I believe he claimed that Nixon sent him into Cambodia (I heard him say it); I believe his discharge is dated 2/16/1978 (I've seen a pdf, which could have been faked, but then I've heard no refutation of that date, from anyone); and I most certainly believe he obtained an annulment from the Catholic Church for an 18 year long marriage that produced two children.



James >>> I suspicion the latter as you sound intelligent enough to discriminate fact from fiction.

Lou >>> I try.



James >>> As you are a died in the wool Democrat hater I know I cannot change your thinking by rational debate so I won't waste the effort.

Lou >>> Just because I do not think one particular self-confessed war criminal is a war hero, how does that translate into Democrat hater?

I don't like professional politicians -- and I think that anyone who believes that politicians are in the business of making their lives better is a fool. However, I do realize that it is only 99% of the politicians that give the 1% a bad name.



James >>> There have been efforts to swiftboat McCain and I've commented on these the same as I comment on your swiftboat efforts.

Lou >>> Go ahead James, name one comment that I have made that is not factual.

Did he confess to being a war criminal? Did he say that Nixon sent him to Cambodia in 1968? Does his discharge sport the date I offered? Did he get that annulment? Those are the only claims I have made. Feel free to dispute any combination of them.



James >>> I condemn them all, that is not proper campaign discourse in my opinion.

Lou >>> You mean like tying McCain to the Keating 7, John Hagee, or something that is fake?
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J R B. May 5, 2008, 12:03pm EDT
Some humor- Can you imagine Hillary in the White House? Now she is busy with government affairs while Bill is extremely busy with the female sector of the White House. Can you imagine what is happening. Oh, it isn't sex!
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Bret W. May 5, 2008, 12:20pm EDT
Bruce K. -

" As far as I'm concerned Rove committed treasonous felonies when he used private email systems for government work. I'm old fashioned that way ... I'd give him execution of solitary for life."

Well now that you've stated your case, all you have to do is bring charges, find a prosecutor who will try Mr. Rove, get a guilty verdict, and send him to prison.

Haven't about a thousand Left Wing lawyers been working around the clock for at least 5 years trying to do what you propose?

Good luck with that, Bruce.
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Mary Ann S. May 5, 2008, 12:22pm EDT
Let's get rid of electronic voting. I never trusted it.

But John Kerry lost because he was a poor candidate. Al Gore won and should have been seated in the White House. That is old history.

The Democrats can't win this one. They are too divided. It would have been better if months ago the powers that be in that party gave the nod to Hillary and groomed Obama for eight years from now. Hillary could have won then, but as things stand, if Obama does not get the mod, the blacks will walk. Get ready for another four to eight years of the Republicans in the White House.

The entire country is being tossed under a bus.
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Jerry Kays May 5, 2008, 3:47pm EDT
Heaven forbid but I think that Mary Ann may be right ...
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Bret W. May 5, 2008, 4:29pm EDT
Mary Ann S. -

I'm for any system that will help the Left Wing feel like our voting was fair when Obama is eventually beaten at the polls. I just don't want to hear any more of this ridiculous "stolen elections" BS. The Left has totally beaten that horse to death.

I'd love to see the paper ballots, if that's what stops Left Wing griping.
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