The car industry uses similar tactics, when asked why they don't offer more electric cars. They will respond that most electricity is generated by burning fossil fuel. For the record, electric cars do cause less greenhouse gas emissions, even when the electricity to power them was produced by coal-fired power plants.

Procrastinators hang on to all kinds of rhetoric in efforts to postpone making the necessary changes. It often comes down not to who goes first, but to 'What comes first, the chicken or the egg?' But of course, it doesn't matter who emits more, or who takes the first step, because both the chicken and the egg will have to change their act.
Another example is industrial use of coal. Coal consumption is projected to more than double in China and India by 2030, according to projections by the Energy Information Administration. While most of this coal will be used by power plants, a substantial part of coal in China is projected to be used in the industrial sector, as also pictured in the main image at the top. China was the world's leading producer of both steel and pig iron in 2004. China is reluctant to switch to electric arc furnaces in its metal industries, believing it to be more efficient to burn coal directly in blast furnaces, rather than to burn coal in power plants first and then bring the energy to electric arc furnaces. But since global warming makes it necessary to shift from fossil fuel to electricity, it does make a lot of sense to shift from the traditional blast furnaces to electric arc furnaces. And if you look at the rising prices of fossil fuel, it also makes a lot of economic sense to shift to alternative ways to produce electricity.
In a second paper with more conservative estimates, Ausra calculates that its solar facilities with stored energy in molten salt could cater for most US day-and-night electricity needs, and would theoretically fit inside a square with 153km sides. To additionally accommodate an entirely electrified vehicle fleet, the land area would grow to a square with sides of not more than 211km.
The cost of solar thermal energy? Ausra's 2007 discussion paper speaks of 10 cents per kWh now, under 8 cents per kWh in 3 years time. This 2006 report in Treehugger describes an agreement between Stirling Energy and Southern California Edison to construct a 4,500-acre 500-MW solar generating station in Southern California, 70 miles northeast of Los Angeles, capable of producing electricity at a cost of 6 cents per kWh.
Meanwhile, the price of photo-voltaic solar panels has come down dramatically with the introduction of thin film technology. Nanosolar promises to produce electricity even cheaper, due to low production cost. According to this article in Popular Science, the Nanosolar's cells use no silicon, and the company's manufacturing process allows it to create cells that are as efficient as most commercial cells for as little as 30 cents a watt, which would make it cheaper than coal, but without the pollution of coal. Also, solar panels on the roofs of houses, offices and car parks would not require extra land, and could power the respective buildings directly, thus competing with end-user prices, rather than wholesale prices.
Of course, even when adding molten salt storage, as offered by Ausra, it's hard for solar power to cater for peak demand during cold winter evenings, which makes it expensive to rely solely on solar energy. Therefore, it makes sense to complement solar energy with wind energy, hydro energy, geothermal energy, etc, to achieve a mix that is both most effective and financially attractive. Electricity can be transported nationwide over high voltage direct current (HVDC) lines, with line losses of about 3% per 1000 kilometers (620 miles), adding $0.01 - $0.02/kwh to the local price of electricity, making import of electricity from interstate another alternative to consider for a local area.
Wind turbines have a tremendous potential. One evaluation estimates that wind turbines can potentially generate 72 TW, or over fifteen times the world's current energy use and 40 times the world's current electricity use. Even if only ~20% of this power could be captured, it could satisfy 100% of the world's energy demand for all purposes (6995-10177 Mtoe) and over seven times the world's electricity needs (1.6-1.8 TW). Wind power currently costs between 4 and 6 cents per kWh.
A 2006 MIT study estimated the extractable portion of geothermal energy in the United States to exceed 200,000 EJ or about 2,000 times the annual consumption of primary energy in the United States in 2005. With technology improvements, the economically extractable amount of useful energy could increase by a factor of 10 or more, thus making extraction sustainable for centuries. About 42 GWe could be available by 2011 at a cost of less than 10¢/kWh if drilling cost improvements and technology improvements continue to be made.
Just like we shouldn't rely on any single source of power (wind, hydro, solar power, geothermal, wave, tide and more), we shouldn't rely on a single way of storing power either. Apart from using car batteries for storage, we can think of capacitors, hydrogen, fly-wheels, compressed air, steam, sodium, molten salt, pumped-up water, etc. Clocks in the old days used springs or weights to store energy. Similarly, bricks could be used as weights in larger contraptions. At even larger scale, we could use the Great Lakes as a reservoir not only of water, but also of energy. At times of peak supply of wind and solar power, surplus power could be used to pump water back from a lower to a higher lake, in order to use hydro-power at times when supply of other types of power is low.
There is an abundance of energy that already now is price-competitive with fossil fuel, depending on local conditions. This realization should lead to a global commitment to reduce emissions, by urging local areas to each implement policies that discourage emissions and that at the same time support better alternatives. Feebates can be taylored to achieve this most effectively. Such policies don't need to select specific alternative technologies; they merely need to insist that alternatives be safe and clean; market mechanisms can further sort out what works best where. References:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.html - Energy Information Administration
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan - A Solar Grand Plan http://www.ausra.com/pdfs/SolarThermal101_final.pdf - Ausra paper 1
http://ausra.com/pdfs/ausra_usgridsupply.pdf - Ausra paper 2
http://ausra.com/pdfs/070820discussion.pdf - Ausra discussion paper
http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/winds/global_winds.html - Global wind power
http://www.nrel.gov/wind/advanced_technology.html - National Renewable Energy Lab
http://geothermal.inel.gov/publications/future_of_geothermal_energy.pdf - The Future of Geothermal Energy - Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)


Comments: 71
This is brilliantly written.
It's odd how Denmark - with all our previous thrust towards wind turbines and other innovations - recently has turned very greedy, helping build all sorts of coal powered generators in the former Warsaw Pack.
We have to get rid of both the egg and chicken idea, and start using our heads.
Great references you site... Thanks
France gets something like 70% of the energy needs from nuclear power, but that would be virtually impossible in the USA.
Once we get to $200 a barrel, we'll talk again. Otherwise, "alternative" forms of energy haven't found a way to be profitable yet.
The sources of emissions are well known. Most countries collect data for submission to the IPCC. Have a look at the Environmental Protection Agency's inventory of U.S. Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Sinks: 1990-2005, showing that well over 80% of US emissions are caused by fossil fuel - the mining of fossil fuel and burning it in power plants and in transportation. The article mentions many alternatives to fossil fuel.
There are also cleaner ways of making concrete and there are better ways to process waste and to produce Agrichar to improve soil quality, etc. I've also made suggestions regarding meat. To change things, we don't have to wait for new technologies to emerge or for fossil fuel to run out. All we need to achieve change is to implement the right policies.
Population's not the point, Jj. Denmark has the resources and technology to provide Hungary, Poland and other of those east European nations with a whole other, cleaner way to build up its power grid. This was utter and unnecessary greed.
You can bet I'm not the only Dane upset with our government for this stupidity. In recent years, Denmark has been severely criticized for its human rights violations and for actually going backwards and producing more and more CO2 each year. Copenhagen-based AP Møller Mærsk, the world's largest container ship line, which also supplies Wall Mart in America with all those poison and slave-labor products from China, produces more CO2 into the atmosphere than our whole country does...
Of course alternative energy sources are readily available. There have been several brilliant articles here at Gather recently which has described that very well. Just open your mind a bit and start doing some reading. I'd link you to those or spend time here explaining that very simple science to you, but I feel it would be offering pearls to the wrong person.
And also, maintain respect when you write to others, OK. I'd like to continue respecting you, despite our big differences in opinion. When you write like that, it handicaps what you present.
I have some shares in a solar module company, and I feel confident that the stock price will rise in January 2009 whoever is elected.
Despite what jjack has to say, oil at $120 a barrel is high enough to make americans buy smaller vehicles. You do not have to be a genius to say no thanks to the Hummer and okay to the Prius. But the marketplace alone is not going to do the trick. In an earlier post, Sam, you quoted James hansen on the fossil fuel industry running the show here in the USA. That will end someday. It needed to end yesterday.
If we changed the nature of our money the changes you propose would happen with no resistance. To see how and why our money today harms efforts to switch to clean energy visit the POM Education group page at http://POMEducation.gather.com/
Who said anything about "smaller vehicles" ??? *ROFL* It is IMPOSSIBLE to conserve to the point where the Sam's of the world want us to go.
What I did say was, alternative fuels won't really be financially viable until it doubles it's current price.
Bent, only cold hard logic deserves respect, until you can achieve that goal, feel free to ignore respecting me at all. I don't post to garner respect, it seems like a silly goal in the arena of ideas.
There's no moral, or legal way we can prevent Poland, or any other country that wants to use fossil fuels to grow their economy. Fossil fuels remain the cheapest, quickest, most efficient way to accomplish our energy needs.
It's too bad you don't like that fact, it's too bad you have fantasies about the burning of fossil fuels harming our atmosphere, but that's just the way it is. Physician heal thyself.
Thanks.
This is brilliantly written. Have you seen the energy made my the Amish? I saw a small notation about a generator they built that uses no oil or power and keeps on going and that they are safegaurding the way they make it work. Know anything on that?
Yes, it has, Chris W. How high does it have to get before we start buying vehicles that require no petroleum products? I'll be the first in line......
Thanks, Sam.
The boy's name Bubba \b(ub)-ba\ is of German origin, and its meaning is "boy". More commonly a nickname, usually for someone rather large. In American slang, it can also mean "brother".
And I have another tag line for you (from popular wisdom) for the procrastinators:
You are pointing on the problems and challenges and continue with practical suggestions all that wrapped with your skilled writing.
Obviously, there are better solutions to produce energy than burning fossil fuel. As you mentioned, It is just a matter of commitment.
We are no longer a nation of law and respect. John McCain broke the spending limit after borrowing money on the promise of repaying with federal funds. It seems unlikely to me there will be consequences. He has not been able to keep his word on other matters as well. He is saying interesting things now about his plans, but I see what he is saying as fiction. He does not have a history of carry-through or consistency.
Barack Obama is more of a mystery to me, but our history of dallying with mystery isn't so good. At least he is willing to tentatively approach certain truths that other candidates don't want to discuss.
Involvement of the federal government poisons the well. Most of the agencies charged with protecting the public are branches of large corporations with lots of Ph.D.'s (Piled Higher and Deepers) on the payroll. Corporate people write in scientific language about the oil-derived biocides, and this language goes straight into the agency record. It is enormously expensive in brainpower and money to prevent the use of taxpayer money to spray biocides where they should not go. A few brilliant Californians have been able to stop this egregiously exploitive use of taxpayer money, but poor communities do not have the means to protect themselves.
When the damage done becomes huge, Erin Brockovich might agree to take it on. Unfortunately for taxpayers, they get stung by such expensive trials as well.
These are the hidden subsidies, above the subsidies going directly to fossil fuels.
The people who say alternative energy should stand on its own make sense to me. Governments will subsidize fads and favorites, but this isn't good over the long run.
While talking with a furnace-repair guy yesterday, I learned that a certain high-tech roof solar system worked really well for a while, until a clear-weather freeze on Christmas day caused all of the ones installed in Portland to fail dramatically. People's ceilings were on their floors. Bankruptcies ensued.
On the other hand, there is a fellow around here who put a solar system on that has worked well for 20 years.
We should expect consumers to choose wisely. I do not mind tax credits, to help clear the air with technologies that provably do that, but consumers should take responsibility for what they choose.
Thanks, Sam, I wanted to look at the sources, but my old computer takes too long for pdf.
I appreciate your list of references; that makes this piece professional and credible.
To this day, I still refer to my 59 year old uncle (bank vice president with no pickup truck) as Bubba even though his name is Glen. Of course, it sends his kids into roaring laughter. For me, it is a term of endearment and I can't bring myself to call him Glen; that sounds too formal!
I always thought we called him Bubba because we couldn't say "brother" when we were little, which is what our mom called him. But then, our great-grandfather, (Mom and Bubba's grandfather) immigrated from Germany, so maybe that's where he got the nickname.
I also named a huge, male tabby cat, whom I adored, Bubba because he was so big and bossy.
However, in Brent's defense, there are definitely times that I use the term derogatively, unrelated to my uncle or my cat, to connote a big, overweight, male idiot, who is usually driving a pickup truck with a gunrack in the back window. Ouch! How prejudice is that?
There are a couple of options that involve doing nothing. One of them is trying to live with the consequences. I would like to suggest to iJack Midnight that he should start working on developing a method for surviving in the water the way whales do.
Bubba is pretty much a universal slang word in the south, for "dude." White or black, it doesn't seem to matter, "Bubba" is a big nickname in the deep south.
However, I will concede there are particular areas where you better not call a black man a "bubba." In some areas, it is strictly an racial slur, meant to denigrate white people of a certain bent. In these areas, it means redneck hill billy gun totin' KKK member drinkin' beer.
Daryl. It's called "clean coal" -- the USA has the largest coal reserves in the world.
The Volt is supposedly going to be priced around 25k. If gas prices stay up there, it's going to be popular, provided the technology works.
But again, the marketplace is two years late. This is why I say, do not wait for the marketplace to solve global warming, it can't do it without help.
But for you jjack, its not really an issue because you figure climate change is imaginary, right?
Second: On population and coal vs. alternative electricity Generation...
Larger Populations actually make it EASIER to make Alternative Energy Viable...
Spreading Cost is what makes things Economically viable... and brings down price... and makes everybody feel "right" and "in" with the "new technology"...
It's not Poland's Larger Population (or the United States' even Larger Population) that makes Alternatives a Challenge...
It is Poland's GDP... Denmark is a much "Richer" country than Poland...
That is where it becomes more a matter for Governments Directing and Encouraging the wisest route for the Future of the Country (and the world) and not selling their Souls for a Lump of Coal down at the Crossroads at which they now Find themselves...
That Brings us to the US where we ARE a Large country (population) and a Rich one... There is no Excuse for us... other than the Efforts of the Vested Interests and the actions of Social Inertia (in which the size of the population can either drag or radically swing direction)
I think Bent was rightfully expressing his Disappointment in Denmark for jumping on its GREED Wagon and playing the role of facilitating bad decisions in Poland rather than encouraging the good Example that it had been setting previously...
The Greatest Nation, however, that Facilitates making those bad decisions and jumping on GREED Wagons is the United States since we have had among the highest level of Influence around the World for the past 50 years AND we have both the Population Size and Financial Resources to make the Wise Decisions but have Been Playing CHICKEN AND EGG GAMES for the past Eight years!!!
But for you jjack, its not really an issue because you figure climate change is imaginary, right?
Idiots always misstate my position *chuckle* Climage change is of course occurring, although there has been no warming AT ALL over the last 10 years.
But just because climate change is occuring, does not prove WE are causing it-- much less that we can do anythinig about it, our "fault" or not.
No one disputes "climate change" which is why that euphemism is now used by the zealots instead of "global warming."
The ONLY dispte lies in the question of whether or not mankind is to blame for "climate change," and CAN WE DO ANYTHING TO STOP IT ???
I submit we aren't causing it, and we couldn't do anything about it, even if we are causing it. I simply don't believe electric cars will be adopted any time soon, and the few "hybrids that are sold wouldn't make a difference anyway.
Chris I believe that one of the impediments to electic cars is the fact that Chevron/Texaco has used their patent on large-format NiMH cells to prevent plug in cars. That patent runs out in 2010. Which is a good thing. However, oil companies and energy companies that have a vested interested in the status quo will certainly try to sequester and suppress technologies that make alternative energy affordable. Just as Chevron/Texaco did with the NiMH cells.
We have overdone the fossil fuel thing to the point of killing ourselves.
I also enjoyed the comments here, especially what Bent had to say . . .
"We have to get rid of both the egg and chicken idea, and start using our heads." ~ Bent
Carbon dioxide levels this year are literally off the chart, as shown on above image by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), which reports that atmospheric carbon dioxide, the primary driver of global climate change, rose by 0.6%, or 19 billion tonnes last year. The red line represents monthly mean values. The black line is the average after seasonal correction.
Also disturbing is the increase in the amount of methane, by 0.5%, or 27 million tonnes, after nearly a decade of little or no change, according to preliminary figures by scientists at NOAA's Earth System Research Laboratory in Colorado. This increase may indicate that methane that has been locked for thousands of years in frozen Arctic soil is now being emitted into the atmosphere as the permafrost melts.
When people speak of 'clean coal', I ask how clean?. At closer look, such technologies often capture only a part of the emissions, while the conversion itself requires a substantial amount of energy. Also, there still are the fugitive emissions of coal mining. And if coal is converted into fuel that is to be burned, this can also add further emissions.
Secondly, conversion is expensive. When South Africa was subject to an international petroleum embargo for its apartheid, it liquified coal to produce fuel, but since no other country did this, the cost of the end-product was evidently higher than oil. Keep in mind that the cost of fossil fuel keeps rising, both for coal and oil, as the article shows, and also note the rising cost of shipping, ports, rail systems and associated infrastructure.
In conclusion, it is both cleaner and cheaper to use alternative energy sources such as solar and wind power, which are available in abundance.
Note that I'm not writing off such technologies, in fact I do see a great future for such technologies, but not so much to convert coal into fuel, but to convert organic waste into Agrichar in a process called pyrolysis, which can also produce hydrogen.
As a final note, hydrogen seems a good way to power airplanes and ships, which could solve problems such as the above-mentioned emissions by the Danish A.P. Møller-Mærs. Denmark also seems well-positioned to convert surplus wind energy at night into hydrogen.
Let's talk about hydrogen for a second too. What is the byproduct of using it for the things we currently use "travel" for-- the examples you mentioned, but also cars and trucks and recreational vehicles etc...
Am I correct in saying water ?? It's steam, right ?? that's what's produce as a by product of using hydrogen right?
Tell me, what happens to our fragile planet then??? Have we suddenly created a world where you have 23 hours of rain each day, and 300 days of rain??
What is the consequence of infusing our atmosphere with water, instead of what we get with fossil fuels? We don't really know what unintended consequences would arise, no matter what "alternative" source we pick.
People ARE highly fearful of the problems caused by fossil fuel and people DO welcome clean and safe alternatives such as wind and solar power that CAN replace fossil fuel within the period of about one decade. No major technological breakthroughs are necessary, it merely requires a change of politics.
As to the water resulting from using hydrogen in transport, I see little or no problem with that. It seems to me that this 'problem' is another fabrication by procrastinators.
p.s. I just posted at Chemistry for a sustainable world on the cheaper-than-$25,00, 4-seater electric car coming to America in 09! You have probably seen this already, but it is great news.
Sun cycles seen not key to recent global warming
The planet's ecosystem, as best I've studied it, is well designed to deal with that due to a very long evolutionary history of that. The Amazon jungle is likely one of the landlocked ecosystems that produces the greatest bit of such evaporation, creating its own storms, and that works quite efficiently so long we leave those trees there.
A few years ago there was a debate I followed at Google Answers on a parallel view of this, regarding solar energy evaporating the oceans and how that feeds into our global systems.
There are a lot of interesting links there.
Were we to come to a shuddering halt, change direction at a 180 degrees, ten years later we would still lose coastline areas that are heavily populated, thereby forcing a planet-wide inland immigration.
This would create more of a strain on natural resources, the outcome being the spread of food riots, the greater chasm between rich, medium and poor classes, and eventually the development of city-wide slums where hand-to-mouth existence is just barely possible.
At that rate the solutions, although then available, will still not come in time to salvage what we'll lose in resources, wildlife, or culture. I must say that from a futurist's point of view it is a dim outlook.
Damage has been done and that will have dramatic impact. Nonetheless, we need to change our ways to avoid even more dramatic impact. More than a year ago, I described Ten Dangers of Global Warming. As that article concludes, we need to be open about the concerns and come up with planning that makes sense.
Excellent article with a lot of information! Thanks for the effort and research. I still have to laugh a little when I hear you talk of meat, feebates, and people storing grid energy in their car batteries to feed back into the grid!
You don't mention hydroelectricity at all and it is the main source of power many places in the nation including here in the northwest. This could be developed farther if the environmentalists don't kill it. This can be a clean and efficient source of energy and all the technology has been around since Moby Dick was a minnow.
They need to get the price on hybreds and electric cars down considerably to get people to change over to these. Even at $4.00 per gallon, one can buy a lot of gasoline with $22,000! I can't believe that it costs so terribly much to manufacture electric cars. But a high percentage of people purchase only used vehicles and these high tech vehicles will be a long time getting onto the used market in any quantity. Persons like me won't live long enough to pay for a $22,000 vehicle in fuel savings, regardless of our desire to do so.
James, my suggestion to tax the sale of meat received about the lowest rating of any of my articles, so it seems that you're not alone. Note that I want areas to decide locally how to meet their emission targets, with proceeds of feebates funding corresponding local rebates on better alternatives. The northwest does indeed produce less co2, as shown on the EPA maps below, so less has to change there.
Overall, we need to dramatically raise the level of solar and wind power, not only to replace fossil fuel, but also to satisfy rising demand for electricity. As discussed, wind turbines can provide a lot of power at night, which could be used to run desalination plants and to recharge batteries of electric cars. While greater efficiencies can do wonders, people will also start using more (reverse-cycle) air-conditioners, etc. Batteries in electric cars can actually help the grid at times of peak demand, and so can the numerous solar panels on buildings. Just look at the success in Germany of the many small solar facilities feeding electricity into the grid. Such solar facilities could further lower the running cost of electric cars. With greater economies of scale, I foresee electric cars that are cheaper than gasoline cars within a few years, while gasoline cars face rising cost of fuel and of maintenance.
Hybrid sales grew 38% last year compared to a depressed (in general) auto industry.
Hybrid sales speed along
Also, plug-in hybrids will be on the market in 2010, making even my Honda Insight look like a gas-guzzler.
Toyota Will Offer a Plug-In Hybrid by 2010
In short, as Sam's article clearly indicates, the old "it's bad for the economy" arguements just don't work anymore. No, it's a matter of entrenched interests trying to ensure that nothing changes quickly.
Somehow I am quite certain you can't substantiate that CRAPOLA *ROFL*
But take them off the grid, shut their water off, and we'll see how "fearful" they are then ! ! ! !
within the period of about one decade
They said the same thing in the 70s after the first "oh no we have no oil" scare *chuckle* big deal, talk is cheap, JUST SHOW ME YOUR WONDER CURE *ROFL*
No major technological breakthroughs are necessary, it merely requires a change of politics
PURE BULL CRAPOLA --- "if only" is the mantra of the deluded. A "change of politics" ???? *ROFL* It wouldn't require any "new technology" ????? *ROFL*
you people slay me, with your land of oz fantasies.
As to the water resulting from using hydrogen in transport, I see little or no problem with that.
It would be nice if you could prove what you think you "see." *ROFL*
as best I've studied it
That's the problem here chief-- NO ONE KNOWS what the result of these "alternative fuels" will do the ecosystem either. You can study study study but the law of unintended consequences still rules.....
I noticed another comment about how things may be better under Hilary. I doubt it. As I recall, she fought the expansion of a natural gas pipeline into New York, even though the added supply source would have resulted in lower natural gas rates for her constituents.
Could be, but also solar.
Ontario to Build 40 MW Solar Farm, through SOP
Amy: "I noticed another comment about how things may be better under Hilary. I doubt it."
Depends on what you mean by "better". If you mean lower energy costs in the short run, you're probably right. If you mean greater energy independence, stability, sustainability and clean energy sources, "things" most definitely would be better under either Clinton or Obama, as opposed to McCain.
My comments are late to this discussion, still I want to congratulate you.
Having seen many of jJack's contrary comments on other articles, I know him to be one who contributes no facts, only opinions devoid of much thought. When pressed, he becomes sarcastic and/or abusive.
Our existing electricity distribution paradigm is a few large, centralized generating plants and high voltage power lines and substations. These require massive investment by necessarily huge utility companies, which naturally do not want competition from small distributed producers. The use of fossil fuels facilitates that paradigm by making it difficult for individuals to compete. (It's hard to arrange your own individual fuel supply, for example.)
On the other hand, using alternative renewable generating sources, especially the very exciting Nanosolar system, allows for extreme distribution (which incidentally improves homeland security dramatically). This is why such systems earn the active enmity of traditional utility companies instead of their cooperation.
I enjoyed the article very much.
Ever since Tesla's technology was stolen (and him murdered) the information has been available to have cheap natural energy. There are countless research projects working on Zero Point Energy (ZPE) that are resisted by the "system" at every turn, and can neither get patents nor funding ... because that concept has already been developed (after the theft) by the major energy interests, now being held back for the time of optimum profits ... when we come to think we are really in a bind, it will be because "they" have convinced us of some shortage or environmental consequence to be feared to the degree we will demand from them as if it were our choice, just what they next intend to sell us ... and they will have made our present so expensive (like where the price of oil is going) that we will pay almost anything for the changeover ... these folks are not dumb, they did not get into the positions of power and control by either being nice guys nor by watching out for us the people ... it is just good old capitalistic business as usual ...
With our media controlled the information is so sparse that naturally anyone (such as myself) that would even mention these things is called a fringe Kook in no uncertain terms of maximum insult ... and the know-it-alls like jJ jump right on the insult band wagon of peer pressure tactics defending the people playing us ALL as fools, we are just tools to them for maintaining their positions of wealth and control ... and we just keep on foolishly playing "their game" ... IMnsHO.
Sam, with all due respect to the Gatherers here, I hope you are putting your considerable reasearch and writing skills to work at a more influential place, like Mother Jones, perhaps, or some groups that can lobby the tone-deaf legislature in Washington. Otherwise, we as just generating electrons in Gather, and not any for the power grid.
Yes, Mother Jones is great reading, such as this interview with Amory Lovins. I'm trying to get more publicity for my writings, thanks again, Scott.