Well, some of you are already aware that Uncle Sam, in the form of the long arm of the law and masquerading as military tribunals, would very much like to have the fair trials and subsequent executions of some of these Quantanamo Bay prisoners. Some, as you may recall, have been held over five years without having been charged and some still have no counsel.
Now why do people pester the poor old Booshie to give these people fair trials? I bet YOU thought it had something to do with letting the innocent people go, right? BZZZZZ . . . Maybe that was YOUR thought . . . but that's not the way it'll go down!
What may be somewhat NEW news, however, is that even if fully acquitted there will be no subsequent release. They'll be taken back to their cells to be held until the War on Terror is completed. General T. Hartmann, legal adviser to the Pentagon's Office of Military Commissions, stated "... in order to protect our troops in the field, in general we are not going to release anyone who poses a danger until the war is over."
About 275 prisoners remain in Gitmo, down from an estimated peak of 680 from 43 countries. Hundreds of "The worst of the worst" (as Rumsfeld called them) have been released. According to Toobin, author of Camp Justice, "In sum, there are more than 130 detainees for whom Administration officials acknowledge they have no plan, except indefinite detention without trial. Others are being transferred to other secret prisons in other countries." Last year, the United Nations asked the US to end the secret prison system, end torture and close Guantanamo's prison. Not a very proud moment when my country is being asked by the world to end the torture which George "I does what I wants" Bush now fully admits to encouraging Rice and others to work out.
A 15 yr. old Canadian named Khadr was taken and has been held there for years. He finally had a trial date but even that has been pushed back . . . Khadr's lead lawyer is Navy Lt. Comdr. William Kuebler. He is quoted as saying, "I don't believe anyone can get an acquittal at Guantanamo Bay."
But what does it matter if they do? They're staying either way.
New Yorker, "Camp Justice" Toobin, April 14, 2008
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Comments: 88
What?!?! You're not a proud American?!?!?! You might as well leave then.
And more seriously... All I can really do is *sigh.* The thought ignorance is bliss crossed my mind.... If nothing will ever change, maybe it would be more pleasant to not know about these types of things. Although that won't accomplish anything or do any good for anyone... Which leads me back to *sigh.*
yeah, that makes sense.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
I have NO IDEA, Sandy, how any person can be proud of this behavior . . . or support it.
"I hope the next administration rights this wrong perpetrated upon our country by this criminal BA. "
If there were any justice, the filthy, corrupt BA would be picked up and taken away for a Cuban vacation in the new rooms opened at the White-Gitmo-House.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Thanks Paul . . . but I'm sick of hoping. Let's REQUIRE our next President to do something about it.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Jean . . . the man at the top has done more to destroy everything this country has stood for than I care to count. He's anti-American to the core.
Sheryl . . . I always bold you . . . your name didn't come up in the natural flow of my thoughts . . . ummmm . . . like it did here. :)
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
well, THAT speaks volumes.......I hope you don't have any hard feelings about our exchange on Carla's article yesterday? I don't.
. . . and I don't need to think your name to prove anything. You've always stuck out like a white dog with a cocktail to me . . . and it, therefore, goes without saying!
(*takes cocktail*)
(*pets white dog on head*)
Ahhhhh . . . GROUP HUG BABY ! ! ! :)
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Something you just made me notice, Doyle Darling......
You and Sheryl are both "white dogs".... Only Sheryl is slowly killing herself with a martini and you're slowly killing yourself with a cigarette. What kind of role models are either of you being to the influential youth on Gather (read: me)?!?!?!?!
So, think about this. If you were in a war zone, your economy in shambles, no job, no hope of escaping, and someone offered you money to just point out someone else who might be in league with the so-called "enemy", don't you think you might succumb to the temptation of pointing someone out, maybe someone who you thought cheated you on the price of a goat once, if it meant being able to feed your family?
There are SO many things wrong with the way we have gone about this whole invasion and occupation.
Probably not but the definition is defensible. I just used the term because I hear it a lot from the therapist handcuffed to the water pipe in my basement.
"Only Sheryl is slowly killing herself with a martini and you're slowly killing yourself with a cigarette."
By smoking it I don't get that deadly second hand smoke though. Just sayin'.
...And lil Ms. Jump to Conclusions . . . You CAN drink Kool-aide from a martini glass! I happent to KNOW that's true. It tastes better with a shot of Rum though . . .
Waait a MINUTE ! ! !
(*Puffs out CHEST*)
I'm A ROLE MODEL ! !
(High Fives Sheryl*)
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
We used to go to war with countries who did this. Now we've "met the enemy and he is us."
I could have written the same fricken' line too . . . except with CA!
I'm certainly going to have a drink after work . . . as soon as I find a wino in an alley and ask what's good . . . and cheap! :)
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Sheryl: I misread your last statement to say "humorous checks" and thought, hmm, what's so funny about paying taxes?! Especially when it's paying for the kind of activity described in this article.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Sheryl, this gets better on each thread. We can smoke while we play bunco?
Oh, my....pass that wino's bottle, Doyle. I need a swig right now.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
We must stop thinking of putting all people in these singular, globby groups.....our very actions of doing that are solidifying their intentions and encouraging people who probably would never had done any violence their entire lives to join their forces against us. Even moderate Muslims in the world, according to a recent Pew poll, have some sympathies for these extremists because of our occupation. Can't we see how we are working against our own interests every day here?
We know NOTHING about these individuals. How does holding innocent people for years somehow related to a soldier being killed? How is charging them and finding out if it's bogus somehow not helpful? It's just slowly rotting away at our morals . . . and exactly what this Nation bitches about with others. That makes us hypocrites AND torturers . . . Icidentally, torture is a failed practice anyway . . . and that also has nothing to do with this "war".
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Juan, those roadside bombings are taking place in a country we invaded.
Damn right. And people need to be against this being done in our names . . . which is why they're referred to as detainees and not as "That guy we grabbed and arrested and shipped out of the country to a prison while hooded due to a unknown person saying an unknown thing (and getting paid for the information). Not told why he is there . . . he can then be freely tortured for "information" and join the others . . . like the hunger strikers (two haven't eaten in three years) . . . like the Canadian teenager . . . and then, years later . . . you may be released or shipped to another secret prison . . . never charged, never tried, never able to defend yourself . . . but tortured . . .
...And the United States did this to you. If you're lucky your family doesn't think you're dead IF you get out . . . and of course . . . they were right . . . because whether or not you did before . . . you hate the United States now. As does every single member of your family.
It's insanity. And it's a cover for pulling people out of Society and making them disappear which they normally would not be able to do.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Also, I can not believe that every indiviudal at Gitmo are innocent, peaceful Muslims that are just misunderstood and were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Equal protection under the law helps NO ONE except the innocent. If we have to sidestep it, guess who's innocent. And how does keeping innocent people locked up help anyone?
Anyone who studies the French Revolution (ok, I'm odd) could see the tactics we're using being very similar to that used in the Reign of Terror (stopping just short of the guillotine - but why is indefinite incarceration more humane again?). By the way, the term "terrorist" was coined then to describe the actions of the government - not those they were imprisoning/killing. You don't have to be a radical faction to be a terrorist. I wish our President wasn't so determined to prove that...
I don't recall anyone saying they were . . . and that includes some guilty jailers and torturers. So . . . even though an IED in a country that would not and could not attack us injures a military man you have no issue with an unrelated innocent man being tortured . . . since we KNOW some of those released must have been deemed innocent. You either DO or Do NOT support the Constitution of the US . . . and making enemies doesn't save our men . . . it gets them tortured too.
Don't group people of the Islamic faith like others do. Some group illegal immigrants into shifty, theiving Mexicans stealing American jobs. You KNOW this . . . and I can see you know this is wrong too.
"(ok, I'm odd)" . . . LoL! You're a PEACH Steph!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Again I seriously doubt, that every individual held there is innocent and would not take any chance to strap on a bomb and walk into a crowd of innocent men, women and children. Deep down I know this wrong thinking, but since our idiot President hell bent in keeping our Service men and women in Iraq, the least we can do is do everything we can do to keep them safe.
people here are criticizing the government that provides them their disability checks, their unemployment insurance, their.....well everything........and they just sit on their butts surfing the Internet all day complaining!!!
Does sitting in a chair and typing on Gather help you lower oil prices?
Doe it help national security?
Does it.....whats the point, the hippies will never get it!!!
An important contributor to price increases has been the slow down in oil supply growth, which has continued since oil production surpassed new discoveries in 1980. The fact that global oil production will decline at some point, leading to lower supply is the main long-term fundamental cause of rising prices.[18] This is because there is a limited amount of fossil fuel, and the remaining accessible supply is consumed more rapidly each year. Increasingly, remaining reserves become more technically difficult to extract and therefore more expensive. Eventually, reserves will only be economically feasible to extract at high prices.
Although there is contention about the exact timing and form of peak oil, there are very few parties who do not acknowledge the concept of a production peak is valid. One alternative claim with few serious proponents is that oil is of abiotic origin, and rapidly self renewing. Leonardo Maugeri, who in late 2006, when oil fell from $75 to $60 per barrel, predicted prices would continue to fall[19], maintained at that time that oil producing nations have avoided digging new wells since the mid 1980s, when energy conservation drove down the price of oil.[20]
In addition, turbulence in the Middle East, the world's largest oil-producing region, has led to decreased exports, especially civil unrest in Iraq after the 2003 U.S. invasion. Outside the Middle East, Venezuela has experienced strikes and political unrest, and there is growing instability in West Africa.
Apart from torturing and killing them on national TV, I don't think the Bush Administration can make the situation much worse than it already is. It's disgraceful that it's happened in the first place, and it's even more disgraceful that they've said they won't let these people go even if they are found to be not guilty.
What the Hell? Yeah . . . I criticize torturers and the government simply does NOT provide me everything! Hell . . . anything they supply to people is taken from the people.
"Does sitting in a chair and typing on Gather help you lower oil prices?
Doe it help national security?"
Well it does get people to think for themselves and get involved . . . does torturing children at Gitmo and banning toothpast from flights improve National Security? Does it? Does invading a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and that would not and could not attack us help? Does It?
"Your" second comment . . . you know . . . the clip and paste plagiarism from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_price_increases_of_2004-2006
shows me that you're a lazy thinker. I get it now. Wikipedia's not always right but since you just copy paste I'm relatively certain you never bothered yourself with checking a single/source. Torture in Gitmo and the reality that release doesn't even come so you naturally copy/paste something from Wikipedia about China and India demanding more oil.
Ahhhhh . . . India needs oil so we should torture and hold people outside the law in Cuba! Got it!
Your own copy/paste (which I gather you couldn't be bothered to read either) mentions that "But the problem is not with U.S. consumption, its with the economies in China and India that are demanding more oil and driving up the price..." and concludes with "turbulence in the Middle East, the world's largest oil-producing region, has led to decreased exports, especially civil unrest in Iraq after the 2003 U.S. invasion."
So ummmm . . . we're complainers and your response is . . . it's the US's fault?
LMAO ! ! !
Post a thought of your own if you have any . . . stop copy/pasting . . .
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
John . . . it's sick . . . and worse, you're right.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
"Maybe you could cut gatherites as much slack as you cut for your hero."
Or cut our troops that slack . . . they don't need more excuses to be tortured . . .
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
you need to read comments more closely doyle...
I wrote " But the problem is not with U.S. consumption, its with the economies in China and India that are demanding more oil and driving up the price..."
Then backed it up with a source!!!
Instead of hyper-linking the source.....like you did in your article
"Source Link
New Yorker, "Camp Justice" Toobin, April 14, 2008"
I simply supplied it directly!!!
Please explain the difference Doylee!!! So according to your cognitive chicken-scratchings I can just hyperlink soruces and its completely different than supplying the source directly?????
LOL....!!!
Please explain doyle, or otherwise Ill have to call you a hypocrap!!
Could be Sandy . . . but who did YOU have in mind?
"you need to read comments more closely doyle..."
Your comments or Wikipedia's comments? Either way, I seriously doubt it.
"Please explain the difference Doylee!!!"
Gladly my uneducated lil cupcake!
Source citation is used as a . . . well . . . let's make it really, really simple . . . picture a BIG finger (I know you CAN!). Now I say something like "People will still be locked up if they are found not guilty."
Follow that?
NOW . . . that finger points to a guard and everyone can look for themselves and see it. That's me citing a source and allowing people to see for themselves so they don't have to just take my word for it.
They hear me.
They see the finger.
They can look and decide for themselves.
Cool system, huh?
Now what YOU did was say something. Slink off stage and slip into a guard's uniform and pretend like you were saying this in your own words . . . and you were the author.
THEN . . . you did NOT point to YOUR source because you had already taken it so there was no place for people to look. YOU decided it was just good enough because, after all, you had on the uniform. Nowhere did you mention that you were adding your name to work another person has finished? Where do you show people that they can go check and make sure you didn't change words? Nowhere. You copied them. You pretended they were yours.
Follow me there? NOWHERE did you acknowledge you were using somebody else's work.
Now if that's not clear enough you should probably read closer yourself (and not here on Gather) . . . start with Citation in an online dictionary . . . you should find 'jerk' somewhere between 'Citation' and 'syphillis' . . . look me up then, ok? Psssst . . . don't panic if you don't find 'hypocrap'. It'll be ok.
"If you know something is wrong, and you do it anyways, you're still wrong, no matter how you try and make it right. "
That's downright sad Tony . . . but more honest than those that deny it's wrong just to make it easier to live with their choices. An unexamined life is not worth living!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
*runs off chuckling to tune her guitar*
ooh, maybe i'll write an ode to Doyle as my first great masterpiece....
I did. You just want YOU to be able to understand without having to think for yourself. I might make it more clear but not without pictures. I think most people understand quite well.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Thanks very much Grems . . . stay informed first and foremost. It helps make subsequent decisions more efficient.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Here, Ill make it easy,
" But the problem is not with U.S. consumption, its with the economies in China and India that are demanding more oil and driving up the price..."
You have got to love this girl right here! : )
As soon as you make one . . .
" But the problem is not with U.S. consumption, its with the economies in China and India that are demanding more oil and driving up the price..."
That TOTALLY explains why a tortured prisoner in Cuba would be held even after acquitted at trial.
"It really is a war of $'s Borg Mother I agree..."
War of $? Point out in the article for me where I said it wasn't if you would. That way, you'd at least have to read it.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Now think about this for a moment. A fifteen year old boy was taken by his father to a training camp in his family's native country of Afghanistan. While there they are attacked by foreign soldiers invading the country. During the ensuing combat his father dies and he is injured and he is then taken and accused of murdering one of the combatants.
First of all, he was a child soldier, so defined by UN convention which the USA is not only party to but one of the authors of. As such he should not, under international law (the only law applicable to the situation as it did not occur on American soil and involved various nationalities), be held responsible for his actions.
Secondly, in a combat situation everyone is trying to kill everyone else. Charges of murder have never been laid in combat situations, nor have war crimes. Had Kadhr executed an American soldier who was a helpless captive I could understand the charge. This was not the case.
There is no evidence of any kind that Kadhr threw the grenade. No one saw him do that. Grenades were known to have been thrown by US soldiers during the fight as well. It is entirely possible that the soldier whose death Kadhr stands accused of was killed by so-called friendly fire.
Kadhr is not, in my view, an innocent lamb. It is entirely likely that the training camp was an Al Qaeda base and Kadhr was well on his way to being indoctrinated into terrorism, suicide bombing or what have you. Also, the American and allied (including Canada) invasion of Afghanistan does seem to have been justified by the event of 9/11 (unlike the Iraq debacle).
I could see Kadhr being a prisoner of war, with full Geneva convention rights, if he had been 18 years old at the time of the battle. But he was a child.
America has tarnished its own reputation by acting like thugs under baby Bush. Letting chicken-hawks run a war, or start one for that matter, is obviously a bad idea.
It will be generations before America will ever again be in the position of claiming moral high ground in international affairs.
Some contrition will be in order before that can happen again. I don't see or hear a lot of contrite talk from Americans yet, however.
Thanks for the comment,
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Nippy . . . Welcome aboard. You're right . . . it's no shock.
Tony . . . I like juan and have seen some good stuff from him. As I mentioned, this was profoundly disappointing to me. I suspect it is equally pathetic, if not more so. But I suspect that Juan has the ability to come around if he thinks ti through. That said . . . the honesty is a plus and the honesty is how we begin to learn.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~