To listen to author Joel C. Rosenberg on the Glenn Beck Show last evening, it would appear that events in the Middle East are moving forward on the basis of old religious predictions.
Whether that is occurring simply by chance, or by the application of overly broad interpretations of the Bible, the Torah and the Koran, or by leaders and shapers who are actually using these ancient texts as blueprints on which to base their decisions and actions, is unclear.
As Rosenberg talked, however, he seemed to be conveying the feeling that it was more the latter. And, if that is the case, there may be a lot of people in this country who might not be too happy to think that their futures are being dictated by scenarios that were concocted from 1,500 to nearly 3,000 years ago.
In the beginning of the interview, Beck and Rosenberg discussed the massive series of emergency drills currently being conducted in Israel over a period of five days. The purpose of the exercise, according to Rosenberg, is to prepare for the "avalanche of missiles coming down from Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Hamas."
Presumably, this will occur after Iran's nuclear facilities have been attacked. The question of who would attack and when was not clarified, but Rosenberg said the window of opportunity was closing, and the United States and NATO seemed to be "asleep at the switch."
The author of the book, Dead Heat, went on to say that he had just met with the Israeli welfare minister, one of the senior advisors to Olmert. The briefing had also included a number of evangelical leaders that are in Jerusalem for an "epicenter conference."
He characterized Iran's foreign policy as being driven by a passionate belief that a "Mahdi," some sort of Islamic Messiah, is coming and that they need to prepare for him by annihilating "the little Satan," Israel, and "the great Satan," the United States.
Rosenberg then acknowledged that the players and the pieces on the western side of the issue "are in place to get us to the so-called end time."
He said "You know, there are a thousand prophecies in the Bible. More than 500 of them have already been fulfilled. The last almost 500 of them deal with specific events that happen in the last days. And when you look at that list and you look at events that are happening in this world today, it's kind of eerie because you can check them off one by one and then when you expand that list to look at other references to, quote, the last days or the latter times in the Jewish and Christian scriptures, you start saying, my goodness."
Well, if what we are seeing here is a collision of cultures being carried forward on the strength of ancient religious predictions that are practically the mirror images of each other, then our reaction should be, it seems to me, much more than what may be conveyed by the simple phrase "my goodness."
As you may be aware, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad practically taunted Israel and the Bush administration yesterday by the way he announced that his nation has begun installing 6,000 new uranium-enrichment centrifuges at its underground facility near Natanz.
All things considered, it would appear that such blustery rhetoric can only increase the chances of an attack.
In late May, the IAEA inspectors are scheduled to present their latest findings to the UN nuclear watchdog agency's board of governors with respect to Iran's nuclear program.
There is a school of thought - albeit, as far as I know, it exists solely in my own mind - that says if the Bush administration and Israel are indeed determined to attack Iran, then it may well take place before the release of those findings.
The rationale for this is that there may be a high level of concern that the IAEA report could pull the rug out from under the plans - if, in fact, there are any - much as the National Intelligence Estimate seems to have done last fall.
If there were to be a multi-pronged nuclear attack on Iran, as has been threatened in the past, there would be significant casualties. Journalist Seymour Hersh reported in the New Yorker two years ago that the Department of Defense estimated that there would be 3,000,000 immediate deaths and that the prevailing winds would cause significant radiation exposure to 35 million others in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, over the following four days.
But what if the attack is simply carried out with surgical precision on just one target, the subterranean facility near the small mountain town of Natanz?
Would Iran respond, or would it just lick its wounds and go on about its business? Of course, that business would likely involve the dispatch of the fifty suicide bombers that are said to be standing by with plans at the ready to hit specific western targets.
In any case, common sense would seem to indicate that this kind of military campaign on the part of Israel or the United States is probably foolhardy and, at best, unlikely.
On the other hand, however, the thought that these events are possibly being propelled forward, inextricably, by age-old convictions leaves me with a growing feeling of uneasiness.
How about you?
Dave McGill, News Correspondent
Dave's column, "The Contrarian," generally published every Friday, to Gather Essentials: News will sometimes present a contrary view to various aspects of the news, or an alternate take on the conventional wisdom of the day, and will occasionally appear on other days of the week
Dave has been a senior officer of a large eastern insurance company, involved in economic projections and investment strategy, president of a Midwestern mortgage banking company, and a financial consultant in Southern California, serving clients in the field of commercial real estate development
You can find all of Dave's "The Contrarian" columns at: http://gather.com/thecontrarian...... Keep up with Dave's other postings and Gather activity by joining his Gather network - just click here: http://atadaskew.gather.com........ You'll find Dave and other News Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other News experts at News.gather.com.
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Comments: 144
We have no laws that says, we have to be married to live with or even have children out of wedlock, more and more people are admitting that they are gay, we have woman who strip for money and woman who sell sex for money. We have a Bible to tell us what is right and wrong, and that God will punish us for our sins. In other countries, they have a Good Book to that tells them right from wrong, but they also, have laws from their country which punishes the guilty too. This is where are governments are so different.
We believe in woman having equal rights , jobs and education, even divorces if they choose. In those countries these woman are slaves to their husbands. So it would not surprise me, since they are into religion more than what we are to bring on the end times.
Either way it's scary, how quick we are to turn to war even if we do believe it will bring about the end of days.
As for Ahmedinejad, he's like a comic antagonist who keeps everyone on their toes. Never a dull moment, right? Unfortunately, this isn't a story, it's the real world and we're spiraling out of control.
Living your life according to a fantasy book , what children religious fanatics are.
For some reason, there is a bunch of crazies that think they can manipulate God into ending the world - my God can not be manipulated! All prophecies in the Bible were meant for the enlightenment of people in the time in which they were written.
I tend to agree with Spartan about King James, though I don't think one needs to go clear back to Aramaic or Koina Greek to find accurate translations these days. King James was so badly mistranslated, both accidentally because of lack of knowledge, and because of intentional changes made to force the text to conform to modern theology.
Just to clarify, Ron and/or Buddy, this is not new to me either, but the comments on the Beck show afforded an opportunity to showcase it at, what I consider to be, a very appropriate time.
A year or two ago I wrote about the Armageddonites who are end-timers who believe they should do everything in their power to bring about the "end." Out of the estimated 30 million end-timers, 10 million were estimated to be Armageddonites. Hopefully, none will ever become president. Again, those numbers are published estimates and may not be totally reliable, but we know there are a lot of end-timers among us.
I think it is a little worrisome that religious leaders might act not in accordance with good sense because they feel they are the instruments to fulfill the prophecies.
Even at the height of the Cold War, you could rely on some rational thinking from the Russians, e.g. the Cuban missile crisis. I don't know enough about the religious leaders in the Middle East. I guess that's what would bother me the most.
http://www.gather.com/memberId=413301
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come, but woe to that man by whom the offences cometh!
This is so utterly against anything to do with common sense... or even Christ's teachings of whom shall inherit the Earth,, if I can wax into that arena
The whole notion is an ultimate form of schizophrenia, on a mass hysterical level. It is so absolutely dangerous now to have anyone in great power in the White House in any way influenced by this insanity, where some are so afraid of life that they feel they can abolish personal responsibility for actions that destroy countless lives they feel are doomed by god anyways, and even capitalize hugely on the whole insanity in the process.
About 90 years ago, after the British invasion, and what some term liberation, of Jerusalem, a group of respected Christian ministers wrote the London Manifesto, which suggested the End of Times was at hand and that Christ was imminently coming to bring in the Apocalypse.
Some of these adherents also believe that the foreshadowed antichrist in some prophesiedscenario will be a leader of the European Union.
Good God! Take a pill!
Yet another prediciton of paranoia from Demagogue David.....
The fear peddler
I'm sure there are people working to bring about the "Armageddon." I've seen them interviewed on TV. These were motivated by what they interpret the prophesies to be. The end of times has been around since the days of Christ, at least. Religions have been started by this phenomenon and religions have been destroyed by.
The idea that you have to know Greek to read the bible is without merit. The translations have been made with dedicated men trying to interpret it and today's reader would have no real idea that his interpretation would be better than these scholars, if as good.
I have a lot of faith in mankind, that he will not destroy the earth and will achieve the things necessary when pushed into a corner. To try to push the end of times to occur sooner is to thwart the original plan of God if you believe there is such.
Vickie, I don't think they hate us, individual against individual but you see, there is this big difference between us. The saving grace of Americans of every religion is that we seperate church and state. The folks in the mid-east don't do that. Their laws are based on their scriptures. So they hate us because their government AND their church tells them they have to do so.
As to the end of days, it isn't given to man to know the date or the time. That is what it says in the Bible. Things might have been prophecied and things have come to pass but then it doesn't say how long past any of these events the end will come. So I am not going to sit in my house and worry a whole lot about the end of days.
But I think we should take the whole mess in the mid-east seriously. I think they plan to do what they can, to get us unbelievers.
King James didn't help anything either with his edits. The Bible tells some nice stories, has a lot of lessons in it, but it is not supported by historical records written by people alive at the time. Some books were written years and years after the events they supposedly are reporting on occured. Some were written by word of mouth stories, getting finally put down onto paper. Some only include the answers to letters with the original questions not included.
The council of Nicea put together a Bible so there would only be one book. Before that council, all the different sects used just one or two books, or perhaps parts of books, letters and oral traditions.
The Bible and it's history is by no means a simple little book set down to help folks in 2008. It is complicated, interesting and not necessarily historically accurate.
that is my view.
Faith that unites and brings peace is one thing... but mass murder! The FBI has a special behavioral branch for this...
That's partly the problem, Wanda. It lends itself to all sorts of interpretations, historical and current, depending on one's subjective POV. At the time of this "council," there were quite a few Christian sects roaming about, many with diametrically opposed perspectives off Christ's teaching, including the notion that the Kingdom of God resides within each person, much like Martin Luther stated in 1536. A particular Caesar of the time, who in his late twenties brutally tortured Christians now faced a civil war in Rome among a host of other Empire problems that threatened his might. So he eventually made friends with a particularly patriarchal Christian-sect bishop in Rome, to gain local popular support of his power grab.
All these Jihads, whether of Christian, Jewish or Islamic origin, really ought to be sanely viewed as a "struggle within each person" to take more responsibility for his or her place on this Earth in context of a soul. This is what most good Christian priests, Jewish Rabbis and Islamic imams teach. It is also the core of Christian agnostic mysticism, Jewish cabala mysticism, and the corresponding Islamic mysticism of Sufism.
Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency: and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath, and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low: and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together;
Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
Talk is cheap folks, God or no God, something wicked this way comes.
But I'll leave off with this.
The female genome contains about a thousand extra codes in it than a man's. Part of that gives a woman far more connections in the brain to more objectively interpret the world of human behavior. The male genome unfortunately creates a huge predisposition for self-centered, schizophrenic behavioral patterns. This is a fact.
In light of what Dave's article expresses well, it is really unfortunate that the woman now historically closest than ever to being the most powerful person on Earth does not yet exhibit those characteristics.
Truly spiritual people are NOT religious, their God is internal, akin to their Soul, they are not dualists, they are trinitarians, seeing God's Spirit as the (=) symbol that displaces the dualistic void of (/) between the differences of the world which are God's natural diversity (+) and (-) ... (+=-) NOT (+/-) ... because (+=-)>(+/-).
All of "that" aside, most people, either religious or secular, are dualistic, (concepts handed down from religions) and though claiming to value the spiritually subjective, it is only the idea of such as defined objectively (literally) in their sacred books. All of that no different to them than what is associated with their normal 5 sensory objective concepts and thoughts. In other words, their "words" and their "actions" do NOT coincide, they talk it but do not walk it.
Those more "into" it, such as the Muslims that actually pray 5 times a day, and certain Christian fundamentalists, may well be much more "avid" about their beliefs, much more committed ... even much more willing to die for their beliefs ... sadly, for too many, to kill for them.
Such folks believe themselves extremely spiritual, and they are, in a misguided sense only. In the truest sense of Spirituality they would NOT kill for their beliefs, even though they may well gladly die for them. The former "think" that they are pleasing their God and are willing to either sacrifice or martyr themselves in their actions for "the cause" that they believe in. The latter would die but do no harm to others.
The main point I am attempting to make here, is that those less spiritual and those nonspiritual (secular) have no real concept of the feelings and drives that the more spiritual will suffer through for the sake of their beliefs ... most cannot even come close to knowing of the intensity of such beliefs ... it is extremely powerful, a motivation that produces suicide bombers and heroes for the cause (Kama-Kazi pilots during WW2).
These folks follow hierarchical chains of command in either military or religious fashion and order ... often without question, they are committed all the way.
Some of their leaders may be so committed also, but generally those that have risen to those levels find it more feasible to use the willing folks at the lower rungs of the ladder.
The books were written by men, the interpretations, whatever the source, are of men, then and now. Men that are objective oriented will see things one way and those subjectively (spiritually) oriented will see the same things another way, often having opposite views.
My having been a "normal" rational, logical, and objective oriented being for most of my life, becoming aware of and believing in the subjective Spirit some 14 years ago, I can speak to both viewpoints ..
The gist of the article and it's question, is to me, what is the relationship between written prophesy and mankind's dealings with it all ... ?
I say an awful powerful one, far more powerful than mere words could explain, and thus both, potentially very creative, and/or destructive ... it is our choice and many will make those choices and actually create their own reality ... or destroy it.
It is my belief that there most certainly are Cosmic Cycles (seasons) of time frames beyond our experience, ancient religious and spiritual texts speak of them, the Mayan calendar is a physical "clock" that points to such, as do so many things too esoteric for the normal man to understand, let alone believe in enough to even seek out the information.
We are in a period that will be known as the "end of times" ... AS WE HAVE KNOWN IT !
The Muslims have their beliefs and the Christians have theirs, the Jews are caught in the middle and doing their best to control their position also ... it is all coming to an objective head of a dualistic nature where people will learn their lessons the hard way because they will not trust God and Spirit enough to embrace the Trinitarian concept of peace and love ... what will be will be ... and it will be because of man-made choices and decisions ... God helps those who help themselves ... be it for good or evil ... we have free choice.
More later, too tired to continue now ...
The Bible has been proven to be historically accurate, at points where the Quote -- scholars -- end Quote claimed it was not. Archaeology proved THEY were inaccurate.
Excellent article, Dave. I'll put my Cha-ching on the Jewish scholars and especially the Book of Daniel any ole day. You may add Ezekiel if you want, but it isn't necessary. Daniel suffices.
It is not fanaticism. I do not believe in someone telling me what to believe or how to study. It rings true. There are too many evidences already.
Thank you again for the article Dave, and you know what happens on this subject. It is going to either be a subject where people should agree to disagree, or it's going to be a very long thread where everywhere moves tighter into their corner of belief.(s)
I do not believe in theory; I believe in the practical application of any/and everything.
So, while it may be fine to [Ahem] "intellectualize" on this, I'll bow out, thank you very much. I only know what I know IF I have lived it. I'll leave that to the Great Debaters.
Bottom line: Time is the great indicator of what's true and what's false, isn't it. At some point, we shall all know -- one way or the other.
I agree with J R B. If we are in the End Times, thens there's nothing we mortals can do to stop the events that are about to unfold -- they are beyond our control, but in the hands of God.
All we can do is to prepare ourselves for what has been foretold. For those who are believers, they know what is required. For those who aren't believers, then my only advise would be to re-evaluate your position -- fast.
I offer it in a spirit of bringing peace to the world.
How come Bush isn`t impeached? No`one has ever rightly gave a good explaination for Mr Insanity...
And the other gospels that the church threw out? The gospels of Mary and Thomas come to mind--why aren't they good enough to join the "prophecies"? Thomas was written during the time that Christ lived instead of years after his death, why wasn't it included? Could it be that both gospels talk about the dream that Mary had that Jesus appeared to her, rather than the fantastical dead rising version we get in the later versions?
And then, there's the OT--sleeping with father, murdering men, women and children who don't believe the way you do....oh....wait...that's what we do now.....and people wonder why I grew out of christianity--too violent & intolerant for me.
Thank You Dave, good article and, way too true for people who are narrow minded and bigoted
dummy,
The Bible was written by man as inspired by God. Man was God's instrument in revealing His Word to His creation. Any "flaws", as you refer to them, come from man's interpretation of His Word, not from the Word itself.
God (insert any name applicable to your faith) will not destroy Earth. Never. Ever.
Humanity will destroy itself and destroy Earth (as we know it) with it. God will start over and give humanity another chance. I want to read the sequel.
Thanks, Dave, for an interesting and reflective article.
And, it's especially interesting when those that do this turn right around and justify it, by calling Christians judgmental and bigoted.
This too is in the prophecies, all must be fulfilled.
Many, like Dr. dummy who evidently doesn't believe in god, will radically pick me apart but, that is ok, because I know the Truth and do not let words bother me. So pick away!
Just as a reminder, God loves you and doesn't want to see any of us ending up in the pits of Hell. But the only way into Heaven is through His son Jesus. As long as you are breathing you have the opportunity to accept Jesus and save your mortal soul. Don't wait until you pass from this life to the next one because then it will be too late. And the only guarantee of life that any of us have, is the breath we "just" took.
The Nazis made modern myths from ancient prophecy for political reasons. I don't see much difference in what some fundamentalist Christians are manufacturing from the Bible.
I don't think the US (or Israel) will attack Iran militarily at present because it would be counter-productive to do so.
The US-led invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were motivated by a strategy of achieving regional and global dominance. Iran was considered the regional "jewel in the crown" before the declaring of a "War on Terror" : Afghanstan and Iraq were viewed as preliminary steps.
The erosion of American power in the world, coupled with the financial crisis in the US, means that America no longer dominates the globalised economy. If it doesn't modify its current foreign policy America now can have little effect on one of the greatest security concerns of today, the crisis of reform within Islam. We are at present on a course to destablize the whole region, which is not in our interest or that of others.
I agree with historian Sir Michael Howard. In his farewell lecture on April 2, 2008 to the International Institute for Strategic Studies on the theme, 'Are we at war?' He declared that 9/11 was not an act of war and assessed the consequences in store as a result of the " War on Terror" policies of the US and its allies.
There is a link to a free download of his lecture at:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474977304062&nav=Namespace
Sir Michael concludes that the grim legacy of 9/11 is that the affairs of the world will largely be settled not by great powers of states, but by the dark powers of non-state players like al-Qaeda, and the huge criminal syndicates now beyond the arm of the law and the reach of the state.
and the 'home office' is no more relevant in todays world than a Inca pyramid.
but still we agonize.
That's always been my question, and complaint. With as many mealey mouthed, empty accusations they've thrown at bushie boy, you'd think the demos would man-up and actually try to bring justice to the ostensible criminal.
For anyone interested, predestination does not preclude free will, or vice versa...
Our Creator is capable of knowing an endless amount of timelines for each of us. This means, Our Creator is able to know how your life will turn out, no matter what you do.
For example--- Let's say you have seven favorite places to eat lunch, and you have a favorite meal at the specific place called for on that day of week.
Now, think of how many combinations you could make, simply by changing the day of the week you eat at each location. There are seven places, one each for the seven days of the week, so---- I have no idea, I'm not a math guy, but I would guess there are hundreds of ways you could split the week up, on those seven days.
Monday-- george's tacos
Tuesday-- maggy's mad mad salads
Wednesday-- hamburgers usa
Thursday-- pamela's pasta house
Friday-- captain's surf and turf
Now just imagine how many options there would be if you didn't eat the same thing at each place, every time you went in. It would vary based on the size of the menu and the number of items on it.
Okay, Our Creator knows what your life would end up like, no matter how many of those options existed.
He knows what you'll do, no matter what you do, therefore he knows an infinite number of life variations that could be, given the infinite number of choices you make moment by moment during your life.
Only the brightest and the most wise among you will grok that shit *chuckle*
Actually, I'm hoping a 1st grader could "get it" if he knew all the words *double chuckle*
My biggest concern is over the number of people who are capable of seeing how Armageddon could be leveraged for personal gain. Those whose humanitarian compassion can be blinded by the idea of reaping massive profits could certainly bring dark prophecies toward a fruition.
Knowing that such things troll easily within human hearts is more scary to me than the threat of terrorists.
Good article, David.
Ahamedinejad makes political speeches but he doesn't make foreign policy. He is subject to the authority of the Supreme Leader. A non-state actor like an Osama is a different matter. The US and Iran act according their pragmatic interests .
The serious consensus of planners in DC is Bush won't attack Iran because it would be counter-productive . We have no ground capability to respond to any counter action the Iranians might launch in response to an air strike. With air strikes, the damage would be negligible as far as Iran's nuclear infrastructure was concerned, and it is highly unlikely that we could effect regime change with air power alone .
There is not support for such action within the congress, with the American people, or within the DoD. in fact, if Bush ordered a strike, some key players (Gates, Mullen, Casey, and probably a few others) would likely resign. There is that much opposition to picking a fight with Iran right now.
It is understood that strike on Iran would further isolate us from the rest of the world. Could Britain support us? If so, who else? France, which has become more bellicose under Sarkozy, would probably not support a punitive military strike.
Politicians here like McCain and Lieberman and, in Israel, like Netanyahu and Olmert cynically use those who demonize others in the name of religion.
So it's a choice... like this interdenominational concept of a free will.
Most of our Founding Fathers, so wisely concerned of the madness that is evoked when mixing fanatical religion with politics, would really be crushed in their hearts, could they foresee what many have written here in response to Dave's good article, which I'm sure Dave knew would bring them out like salivating demons seeking company.
All this nonsense from so many here has inspired me to begin working on a very special article that describes the incredible good a great many in this world are now engaged in to alleviate human suffering.
There is such incredible beauty and potential in this world. Why on Earth misuse the gift of your minds with this perversion of God.?
And cat turn its back and walked away and started to scratch at the back door and I knew my cat wanted me to open the door to let him out. Over the years that I have lived with my cat I have learn to read his signals.
Dave I am disillusioned old boy... you watch Glenn Beck? Another talking head as are they all.
Clarke has exceptional intellect, as does Bent, both have vast backgrounds in religio/spiritual matters, not to mention Clarke's metaphysical knowledge ... and on top of all of that, both, as far as I know, are very successfully "pragmatic" in real world objectivity ... bottom line is, I value highly their opinions ... but ... I cannot know for sure all of their experiences, naturally ... but:
The one over-riding (for me) thing that I do most certainly know about, and that which I have so extensively considered for the last 14 years non-stop, full time, is the extreme subjectivity of the Spiritual Experience itself, in the most intense and complete way that I could imagine it taking place. Then, based upon what I went through and non-stop study ever-since, due to the overpowering interest in the field of that knowledge ... which is as esoteric as knowledge can get ... I have a different take on this subject than they have ... as far as I can tell.
That different take, is the extreme relationship to ones perception of spiritual involvement ... there is nothing more powerful known by mankind, and there are relatively few that have experienced it to the degree that they would understand it and believe what I am saying here ...
From my perspective in these matters, whether we believe in, acknowledge or not, or wholeheartedly deny, there IS still a spiritual subjectivity at work in everything taking place and there are cosmic seasons that affect all such ... so believe what you will and that will be your reality ... most likely ... because what you will experience WILL most certainly CHANGE what you believe, IF it becomes different than you believed BEFORE ...
I think that MANY will SOON come to change their beliefs. IMnsHO.
I don't disagree about the translations but the point I'm trying to make is that there is no reason to believe that any one person in the twenty first century can read the originals and know that the translations are all wrong. The were put together by what were the scholars of the day, and over a great amount of time.
\\\\The Bible tells some nice stories, has a lot of lessons in it, but it is not supported by historical records written by people alive at the time. Some books were written years and years after the events they supposedly are reporting on occured. Some were written by word of mouth stories, getting finally put down onto paper. Some only include the answers to letters with the original questions not included.////
This description, as well as your comments about the Nicean council are quite accurate according to what I've learned. This lack of corroborating documentation is one of the reasons there is such skepticism about the actual occurrence of these events. The reason for that council was to eliminate some of the discrepancies between certain Christian sects and to have a common doctrine. This required a general book of rules to guide them. Constantine wanted to become a Christian and wanted only one branch to exist. I would suspicion that his motives were largely political as the church could be used to exert influence over the faithful.
Thanks for the comment!
Of course, that's not going to happen.
History, if the human race survives long enough the write the history of this moment in time, will probably debate who was the biggest lunatic: Admadinejad or Bush. the jury is out at the moment.
I expect an attack on Iran before May 1st. Then the shit will really hit the fan.
I hope to God I am wrong.
Interpreting Biblical passages as prophecy of modern poltical developments is an old game: it's been done for centuries. Do you know that the first generation that expected Christ's return and the beginning of the end times was his own? His disciples who survived him expected his return in their own lifetimes. The year 1000 was a popular one for expecting the Armageddon. So was 1842 (I've seen the pages from the Sears catalogue advertising "Ascension Robes").
A nut with a Bible in his hand is still a nut.
"A nut with a Bible in his hand is still a nut."
David B. You have to understand. I don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus, the easter bunny or Jesus Christ. Why do so many people believe in one man that was born on Dec. 24, of a virgin, preformed miracles, had 12 men following him around , died and raised after 3 days, when there were many men ''before'' him, that claimed the exact same thing. Horus, in 3000 BC, Attis in 1200 BC, Krishna in 900 BC, Dyonysus in 500 BC, Mithra in 1200 BC, and almost 40 other figures throughout history have claimed these same things. Why are they ''not'' your savior.
''I think there are a looooot of ppl that believe in a "higher power", that has nothing to do with some "book" or "book of fables".
Count me in on the group. But I don't believe that there is some gray haired old man in the sky, with a book that ''my'' name won't be in. Funny thing about the Bible. The ''faithful'' believe in what's in there, except, when it actually tells the truth. Doesn't it say in the Bible, that God is all thing to all men, the alpha and the omega. What does this mean. The word ''all'' comes into play here. What is ''all things''. Everything. What is ''everything''. Well, look around you right now. That's what God is, everything. Everything in the universe. So when we kill in the name of God, we kill part of God.
Af'n men!!!!
"You have to understand. I don't believe in the tooth fairy, santa claus, the easter bunny or Jesus Christ."
I don't know why anyone "has" to understand what you believe. I think you need to understand that what you believe has extremely little impact on what is actually true.
"Why do so many people believe in one man that was born on Dec. 24, of a virgin, preformed miracles, had 12 men following him around , died and raised after 3 days, when there were many men ''before'' him, that claimed the exact same thing. Horus, in 3000 BC, Attis in 1200 BC, Krishna in 900 BC, Dyonysus in 500 BC, Mithra in 1200 BC, and almost 40 other figures throughout history have claimed these same things."
You make many statements of this sort, yet offer no explanation for how you know such things, nor offer any form of corroboration at all. Obviously, we've all got access to the Internet, so why aren't you providing some references where such declarations can be verified? How exactly do you know that any of those "deities" was told to be born on Dec. 25Th, had twelve disciples, were born of a virgin, or anything else along the lines of what you espouse?
Are you asking us to simply accept such things cause you said so? Do you not see the inherent contradiction in your insistence that folks ought to disbelieve something as well documented and established as the Book, while simultaneously proclaiming they ought to accept stuff Dr. Dummy just spews as if a god?
It can be relatively easily calculated from what is told in the Book, that Christ was NOT born on Dec. 25th, but rather "conceived" at that time, though there is some small doubt as to the exact date. It can be reasonably assumed he was born on or about Sept. 29th. It has little impact though, as birthdays are not particularly significant to much of anything in the Bible.
I heard Beck once on NPR riffing on this an that, sounding very high minded and tolerant. Then out of the blue he popped off with the fact that Rick Santorum was his favorite politician of the past ten years and he misses him every day. Holy Cow! Santorum!
I understand, I think, and I must say, you demonstrate rather good reasoning at many points here, in my opinion,
The cousin of Mary was the mother of John the baptist, who's husband was a Levitical priest in the Temple. All such priests served on a rotating monthly basis, and his "slot" is spoken of in relation to his wife's pregnancy. The day following Mary's "experience", she went to her cousin's house to tell her of it, and the baby within her cousin's womb is said to have reacted strongly to her presence, and it is said that at that time she was six months with child. Together, these details provide a fairly good picture of the time-frames of the two gestations, if one cares to research a bit more. It is, as I said, not critical to anything in terms of birthdays (that I am aware of), but has to do with the relationships of the various people in the story mostly.
"Then why are you arguing over it?"
Who's arguing? I was agreeing with you.
As with most Christian holidays, Dec. 25 was chosen to coincide with the winter solstice celebrations common among many indigenous tribes all over the world throughout the history of humanity. The Christmas tree is a pagan north European custom, having to do with the evergreen rising from a frozen landscape to remind everyone that life and nature are alive and well. Even Easter, and the Jewish celebration of Passover, has to do with ancient celebrations of the vernal equinox to coincide with life rising from the soil, as with an ancient rite around the barely crop having ripened in some regions and with nature and birth suddenly springing in other regions. We paint Easter eggs bright colors to honor ancient rituals to do with the blood that flows at birth in nature.
It is absolutely impossible that you could know that the Jewish passover was what you claim. Impossible.
You are free to believe anything you wish. If you think one event being celebrated at the same time of year as a different group celebrated a different event, proves one group adopted the others practices, have fun.
For the first years after Jesus died, the church did not celebrate his birthday, only his date of resurrection. The people of the church wanted some time devoted to his birth. There was a pesky pagan holiday accompanying the winter solstice so the church "baptized" it and turned it into a Christian holiday. At least that's what I've read multiple times. I wasn't there so can't say anything for fact.
The feast days of the many saints, etc. are not purported to occur on their birthday. Many of those dates are unknown and that is irrelevant to Christian teaching at any rate. Where the dates are unknown, the church alloted the various persons to celebrate to the times best suited for the church.
I don't really see what the big deal is if Christians evolved celebrations, like to honor Christ's birth with the Winter Solstice when it is darkest, to coincide with countless cultures celebrating similar events within their life-celebrating rituals. From what I read a long time ago on this, it was often a way to actually convert those heathens. Just an inner smile, for none of us are heathens in the eyes of however we came to be.
Decided to look it up, since much of what I write comes from memory. You called me on the carpet about the barley harvest tied to the Jewish Passover.
Passover and Barley
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Barley in the Jewish Bible
There a whole lot more. Sit down someday, as I often have, and talk with a good Rabbi.
Thanks, Jerry, for the other link.
I called you for stating things as facts, which are nothing more than conjecture. Honest, the ability for you to see something as possible, really and truly does not mean it actually happened on the planet Earth. You could say you think such and such is a possibility, but, that wouldn't serve nearly as well to generate rumours, would it?
You should only know what I've learned and experienced of native tribal celebrations. The traditional Navajo (Di´neh) go through life as though every moment is a celebration of their creation on earth. Traditional mothers talk to their fetus constantly, reminding her of creation, and this smoothly continues unbroken after birth throughout life, often in rituals that last several days.
The first priests with the Conquistadors in SW America, after torturing the more agrarian Hopi into submission, went up to the highlands to see if the Navajo had a "soul." They did this on behalf of the allied economic politics between the pope and Spanish throne, so that the Spanish could pretty much treat any native tribe they came upon like farm animals (actually, worse, when I think about it). To see if they had a soul, a priest would show a particular tribe a cross and say "Do you believe in Christ who died on the Cross to save your soul." Depending on the answer, they were enslaved.
Well, according to tradition, the tribal clan representative of the time had a hard time with the priest's Hopi lingo, but eventually said, "That is a really cruel way to treat your God." The Navajo spread out his arms to all corners of the world and said, "Nothing here is not God to us."
The Navajo were about the only native Americans not subjugated by anyone until after Manifest Destiny's thrust and after the Civil War, when the US Army finally figured out how to make a whole lot of guns.