The Thoughts I Think...

Remember that if everything is predetermined your being upset is predetermined also. You would feel as if you had free will and that feeling would also be predetermined.

Yes I see your meaning however, if I can't change the way things are, wouldn't it be quite insane for me to be upset about anything? Perhaps upsetness is just a mad invention...

Yea, I'm training my mind to think this way. The script is written...

I think quite a few people can change the way things are, at least with themselves. It's a matter of choices, I don't think we are all predetermined to make the choices we do. I think people make their choices depending on the character that they have. People with little or no character will make bad choices, kill, steal, cheat, lie, etc... People with moral character will try and make better choices. I think even people have a choice on whether to be happy, or sad, or mad. As far as being upset, we make a choice on whether to let things bother us, and what to do if anything after we have been upset. Choices, no predetermination.

Though you can't change the things that are now instantly you can change them over time. That is, you can affect the future. Of course your decisions are determined (according to your assumption above) so it still won't matter. If you decide to be apathethic or energetic and active that is all predetermined. Thus, neither approach is insane. One of them may even work. Sometimes it's better to just wait. Whatever you do will influence what happens next.

Carolyn I like what you say about changing self, it is the miracle of life that we can change our minds when our thinking goes crazy.

I don't understand though how that goes together with judgments about character or for that matter morals? To my mind all morals are imposed, made up constructs that change with fashion and events, so they are meaningless in helping us sort out what Truth is.

Also, in my experience, everyone is attempting to make better choices, I don't know anyone without character. Everyone is doing their best with the information they have available to them at the time.

If you see a murderer and you judge him as bad, surely you have to judge the generals and the politicians who promote war, cigarettes, or the CIA funding themselves by the sale of drugs. These people have tons of social character yet think nothing of sending children into battle?

They are all, the common murderer in the street as well as the apparently devious politicians doing the best they can with what they know.

Wasn't it Jesus who said: "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do..."

Larry, I believe we are talking in two different time frames, indeed I can alter events over time but I want to be happy NOW with whatever is going on in my life NOW.

If I have made the error of getting upset about what is happening now I have the choice to see it differently and change my mind about that.

What I am proposing above is simply that I do not even have to reach the stage of getting upset if I retrain my thinking to where I see events as predetermined, weather or not they actually are does not matter for the purposes of the exercise...

that is saying that you have no control over your destiny, and we do....and who's to say we would be happy.......maybe bad things are predetermined!

Fern The only control I have over my destiny is how I choose to feel about events, I cannot control the actual events themselves.

If I am not conscious of what I want then I am at the mercy of my ego and will experience a multitude of feelings, both positive as well as negative.

However, if I train my own mind to a completely different way of seeing, I can be happy to spite the myriad changing events...

Ingold Trust is most certainly one of the required attributes of a happy mind as is open mindedness, generosity, honesty, tolerance, gentleness, defenselessness, joy, patience and faithfulness..

Robin, you seem to have mastered the road to serenity. It is wonderful to be able to let go and let God's will be done.
Worry is so useless. Nothing has ever been changed by the amount of worry expended over it. Surrender to God's Will, have faith and find peace.

Jan Self mastery is inevitable, not because of self but because it is God's Will and His gift to all. Only the time it takes is voluntary...

Who's Bradley? Would that be Bradley Christ, brother of Jesus? :)

BTW I joined, I'll post this when I get the email...

Robin, it is an interesting concept to imagine that all is predertemined. I have imagined it myself, but then it enters my mind that God has given us all free will. Therefore, what I and others do we do so by choice, and yet God knows us so well he knows our decisions before they are ever even concieved in our minuscule minds. So not necessarily predetermined, but known.

Mischelle, free will does not mean that you can change circumstances, it just means you can change your mind about how you experience the circumstances of your life.

You cannot alter the reality of the death of a loved one but you can decide not to suffer over it. I am not talking conceptually here either, I know many people around the world who have embraced this understanding and become free.

BTW Mischelle, there is nothing minuscule about the mind, your mind IS a creation of God, it is very Holy!

Robin, the only morality that is important is God's morality,not man's self-imposed, or not self-imposed morality. I think the reason I mentioned morality is that people like to place a blame on things and NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for the things that THEY DO in life. Having a mind-set that nothing is of their doing, that whatever is going to happen, is going to happen, NO MATTER WHAT. I think I do see what you are trying to explain though. I think. I think what you are trying to say is, what is going to happen, is going to happen, don't let it get to you? Is that basically the idea? While happiness is a good thing, and anger sometimes is bad. I have one question for you. Do you think Jesus was wrong for feeling angry over what the people were doing in the temple. (And therefore overturning the moneychangers tables). If things were predetermined, and Jesus knew what these people were going to do, are you saying he should have just accepted it, and not gotten upset?... Just a question for you?..

Carolyn, you will have to forgive me, I do not know the facts of the situation concerning Jesus and the money changers, I was not there.

All I can say is that, the Jesus I know through A Course in Miracles would not act-out in the way you are suggesting, it runs contrary to his sublime teachings of forgiveness.

Who decides/imposes "God's morality" should we believe the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavdgita to name but a few so called holy books that claim to contain different versions of "God's morality"?

God only has one law and that is Love, we do not need to hold beliefs or superstitions from past ages to understand God's Love NOW for that is what WE are.

We simply need to ask ONE question in every situation, are my actions, my behavior, my emotional state, a true and Loving reflection of my true Loving Creator.

If my answer is yes, fine, if the answer is no then I am indeed being irresponsible because I have His Power to be His Love, in His Image. If I am upset, or miserable, or angry, I am refusing to reflect His Love.

Thank you Cassandra, there is an Lesson early in the Workbook of A Course in Miracles that says it a whole lot better than I do. It is entitled:
I am never upset for the reason I think.

Robin we cant control what will happen tomorrow only how we deal with it, each and every one of us has it in them selves to do this,and speaking for my self now that i am that little bit older and that little bit more wiser ,i have this simple little saying ,do unto others as you would do unto your self ,some one a lot more wiser than me said this a long time ago .Its a pity some folk don't do this

Yes graham it is but if I look at what I would have done unto myself I realize that like me everyone is doing the best they can with the information they presently have. This realization helps me look but not judge others for what they do...

You are right robin never looked at it that way before spot on my friend.

Yes Graham the act can sometimes be horrific, a murder, a suicide, a rape or whatever and the temptation is immediately to judge the person "responsible"

But what if the acts that seem to be so terrible were reinterpreted as what they truly are, a call for help, a cry for love - Every so-called evil act conceived of is part of the human condition, if I would do unto... then I had better look closely at how I would want to be treated where I the one in the dock.

They say, "you never know what you are capable of until you are in the situation" And to quote the bible, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

There are so many references to the evil of judgment, "judge not least you be judged, it goes on and on.

Still, we ignore these warnings to our detriment, mostly because we do not understand the motivation to do harm, we think it comes from conscious will and we attribute consciousness, to acts which really come from deeply berried unconscious guilt and pain.

When we as a society punishes someone for an act of harm we seal our own fate, we reject that persons desperate call for help and we teach ourselves that guilt is real and the human condition is deserving of punishment and NOT Love!

But it must start with the individual, we cannot fix societies but we can raise our own individual awareness, that's our function and for those undertaking this it is their great joy!

difficult to agree with when in the midst of a trial ... regardless, it is the way it is.

i have a theory that each of the incidents are a thread or a new bit adding to a previous thread and together they create a net of world. i am writing a poem on this

" But it must start with the individual, we cannot fix societies but we can raise our own individual awareness, that's our function and for those undertaking this it is their great joy! "

I fully agree with that ... I probably fit into the class of panentheist ... meaning I see God as the totality of creation and all parts of creation are then a part of God, some call that holographic ... we are thus made in the "image" of God, and when Jesus supposedly said "be ye as perfect as the Father" what he meant is to be truly your complete whole and balanced human-being, your self/Self (lower "ego" self in relationship to your INternal higher Self, your Spiritual Soul) ...

Being made in the image of God, when realized and utilized, we are then gods (note capitol/noncaps) ... we thus, realized or not, create our own realities primarily, and co-created with others secondarily as we relate to those others ... as we think, so it is (as far as we are concerned anyway)(subject to change moment by moment of course).

I see us having conferred with others, including our life here co-creators, PRIOR to our incarnations. We each and all had a general plan to play out here, but also knowing that upon birth here we would lose the memory of all such relationships ... devolving here into isolated egos valuing primarily the 5 objective physical senses related to our perceived reality.

I see our real goal here for life to actually learn the lessons of the truth of God and the balance of creation (+=-) and then attempt to wake up the others into learning such truths also ...

God being UNconditional Love, does NOT judge and play favourites, but via Karma does the accounting so that when we practise the Golden Rule we will know (at least eventually) that it does work ... without fail in the larger picture of eternity.

I know that for a long while after my spiritual awakening 14 years ago, that nothing bothered me, if I physically hurt myself I just smiled and/or laughed about it ... ego was so subservient then to the higher Self that I related to the Spirit of God. Those were my Mystical times ... days and nights ... they were great beyond words (but I still later attempted to write a book about it all) ...

But now, years later with a grasp of what it is all about, I just chop wood and carry water ... as I attempt to relate the found truths to others ...

Bottom line to me ... is to always settle for no less than the highest truths ... it is the truth that will set you free ... free to know that such truth is also the unconditional love of God ... (+=-)>(+/-). IMnsHO.

i personally cannot believe that life is predestined, nor would i want it to be. if everything is already set, why in the hell do i need to exist? for the amusement of a "god" or "deity"? if i actually thought that there was a deity controlling my future, i would kill myself right now just say, "f**k you, this is my life!" ehem.... just me opinion.

;)

Maria I understand how difficult this one is, the ego prides itself on "original thought"... However it has none!

I will quote directly from the Manual for Teachers of A Course in Miracles so there is no misunderstanding:

"The world of time is the world of illusion. What happened long ago seems to be happening now. Choices made long since appear to be open; yet to be made. What has been learned and understood and long ago passed by is looked upon as a new thought, a fresh idea, a different approach. Because your will is free you can accept what has already happened at any time you choose, and only then will you realize that it was always there. As the course emphasizes, you are not free to choose the curriculum, or even the form in which you will learn it. You are free, however, to decide when you want to learn it. And as you accept it, it is already learned.

TU ego always threatens to harm itself when it is confronted with ideas it finds threatening, it's a bluff because it value it own existence above all else.

"God" or "deity" is not amused by our mortal existence, God is not controlling us or our so-called futures. Illusions are not real, God does not see what is not there!

Maria Yes I am saying that, if you look at Lesson 7. in the Workbook it explains why.

I see only the past.

This idea is particularly difficult to believe at first. Yet it is the rationale for all of the preceding ones.

It is the reason why nothing that you see means anything.

It is the reason why you have given everything you see all the meaning that it has for you.

It is the reason why you do not understand anything you see.

It is the reason why your thoughts do not mean anything, and why they are like the things you see.

It is the reason why you are never upset for the reason you think.

It is the reason why you are upset because you see something that is not there.

Old ideas about time are very difficult to change, because everything you believe is rooted in time, and depends on your not learning these new ideas about it. Yet that is precisely why you need new ideas about time. This first time idea is not really so strange as it may sound at first.

Look at a cup, for example. Do you see a cup, or are you merely reviewing your past experiences of picking up a cup, being thirsty, drinking from a cup, feeling the rim of a cup against your lips, having breakfast and so on? Are not your aesthetic reactions to the cup, too, based on past experiences? How else would you know whether or not this kind of cup will break if you drop it? What do you know about this cup except what you learned in the past? You would have no idea what this cup is, except for your past learning. Do you, then, really see it?

Look about you. This is equally true of whatever you look at. Acknowledge this by applying the idea for today indiscriminately to whatever catches your eye. For example:

I see only the past in this pencil.

I see only the past in this shoe.

I see only the past in this hand.

I see only the past in that body.

I see only the past in that face.

Maria, if you do the Workbook and study the Text all these ideas that you are having trouble with will come to you by themselves. As your mind opens Reality floods in of ItSelf!

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