President Bush might be excused for saying, as he did, that the success of the surge in Iraq has justified the war's cost. As the architect and the man responsible, his statement could almost be considered understandable.
Some might say, on the other hand, that, at an enormous cost, we have created nothing more than a major fiasco.
The greatest cost of any war is the loss of life. Within days, the 4,000th American service person will be killed in Iraq. And, as for the civilian population, no one has bothered to keep accurate records, but estimates range from 100,000 to over 1,000,000 deaths and the displacement of millions more.
And then there's the dollar cost to the American taxpayers. Back in 2003, former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz estimated the cost would be $10 billion to $100 billion and that Iraq's oil exports would cover most of the post war costs.
So far, it appears that the war has cost about $½ trillion. Ultimately, however, it will be much greater. Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, has just published a book in which he claims the true cost of the war, extending beyond the U.S. budget and including veterans' costs and the impact on the U.S. economy, will exceed $3 trillion.
The question, then, and the one that the president's comment raises is: exactly what are the benefits that he says justify the tremendous costs cited above? And, in fact, are there any benefits at all?
At the same time, Vice President Cheney was being interviewed on the subject of Iraq by Martha Raddatz of ABC News in Oman, where he was planning to go fishing with the sultan. The exchange went as follows:
Raddatz: "Two-thirds of Americans say it's not worth fighting, and they're looking at the value gain versus the cost in American lives, certainly, and Iraqi lives."
Cheney: "So?"
Raddatz: "So-you don't care what the American people think?"
Cheney: "No, I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls."
A curious choice of words for the vice president. The term "fluctuate," according to the dictionary, means "to rise and fall in or as if in waves." Over time, the direction of the public opinion poll results has been but one way, down, as support for the war and for the president himself, has sunk by about 40 points.
The poll referred to by Raddatz was a CNN-Opinion Research Corp. poll released Wednesday which found that only 32 percent of Americans support the conflict and 61 percent said they want the next president to remove most U.S. troops within a few months of taking office.
You might say, what a character that Cheney is. He's not running for office and he's been well taken care of. He's just going to tell it like it is.
Well, the only trouble with that is, he isn't telling it like it is. And the 4,000 fallen heroes, those yet to fall, their loved ones, and the tens of thousands of wounded Americans, including many who are suffering from post traumatic stress disorders and traumatic brain injuries, deserve a better answer.
But by far the strangest comments of the week were those uttered by the apparent Republican nominee, John McCain. McCain was in Iraq, Jordan and Israel with Senator Lieberman.
First of all, given the poll results mentioned above, it seems strange that McCain, by traveling with Lieberman, and by being in the region at the same time as Cheney, would allow such a hawkish profile of himself to be thus portrayed.
Lieberman, you may recall, said on Face the Nation last June that the United States should consider attacking Iran.
The position that McCain seems to be taking might be compared to someone walking the plank of an old pirate ship. It appears to be a doomsday scenario for the candidate, unless, of course, there happens to be an international crisis that he might be perceived to be best qualified to handle.
Much of his trip, in fact, did involve Iran bashing, and that brings us back to the subject of his strange comment.
Speaking in Jordan, he charged that Iran was taking al Qaeda personnel into Iran for training and then transporting them back to Iraq. He said it more than once, and on more than one occasion, until Lieberman finally leaned over and suggested he describe the trainees as insurgents, not al Qaeda operatives.
McCain corrected himself, but subsequently, his office released a statement that claimed Iran was training insurgents and members of al Qaeda.
For a man who may be on the threshold of the White House, this was an amazing blunder or, actually, series of blunders.
Iran is a Shiite nation. Al Qaeda is a Sunni organization. The Shiites and the Sunnis have been antagonists, more or less, for over one thousand years. Today, in Iraq, al Qaeda has been involved in perpetrating most of the major terrorist attacks that have occurred over the past few years, and the victims of such violence have been the Shiites.
In a contrarian article entitled "The Iran Smokescreen," published here on Gather on July 18, 2007, I included a list of the 14 most destructive terrorist attacks within Iraq, as reported by the Associated Press. No less than 13 of the 14 attacks were considered to have been made by Sunnis, with extensive Shiite victims in each case. The other attack involved the Kurds.
The Shiite nation of Iran would never, under the sun, consider, for one second, training al Qaeda operatives so they could then go back into Iraq and kill Shiites.
Lieberman corrected McCain because he knew that anyone with even a little understanding of the Middle East would recognize the candidate's statement to be inaccurate.
A Newsweek correspondent who travels with McCain said on MSNBC that McCain was lax on detail and that the press corps was generously tolerant of the mistakes he would typically make every ten days or so.
Be that as it may, and with all due respect for the man as a bonafide war hero, this cannot be excused as a simple case of inattention to detail.
The situation suggests that he lacks a basic understanding of the Middle East. Being keenly aware of the relationships between the factions in the region is essential to dealing with the problems.
Furthermore, as I have suggested numerous times in numerous articles on Iraq, the real question is not what Iran may or may not be doing, but, rather, who is arming the much more dangerous Sunnis who make up al Qaeda.
There are five Sunni nations bordering on Iraq. However, the source of the Sunni support is likely to be coming from one or more of just three of them, Saudi Arabia, Syria and/or Jordan.
It is baffling that the Bush administration and John McCain have never once raised this question.
In any event, it seems that the above comments by Bush, Cheney and McCain may have made for one of the strangest weeks, arguably, in the annals of this country's leading political personalities.
Dave McGill, News Correspondent
Dave's column, "The Contrarian," generally published every Friday, to Gather Essentials: News will sometimes present a contrary view to various aspects of the news, or an alternate take on the conventional wisdom of the day, and will occasionally also appear on other days of the week
Dave has been a senior officer of a large eastern insurance company, involved in economic projections and investment strategy, president of a Midwestern mortgage banking company, and a financial consultant in Southern California, serving clients in the field of commercial real estate development
You can find all of Dave's "The Contrarian" columns at: http://gather.com/thecontrarian...... Keep up with Dave's other postings and Gather activity by joining his Gather network - just click here: http://atadaskew.gather.com........ You'll find Dave and other News Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other News experts at News.gather.com.


Comments: 117
It is scary that the eventual cost of the war will likely be over 3 trillion.
It is scary that Cheney is such an idiot but scarier that we might have one just as idiotic as the current Bozos.
Hello Dave, I do not believe these words are any blunder at all.
This is the same type of propaganda that the Bush Administration used going into Iraq. Equating Iraq/Saddam with Sept 11th and Osama bin Laden etc...
I believe these "blunders" are quite intentional
Therefore as more Iraqi's died because of the 'surge' and to say that the surge worked, would depend upon ones point of view.
The Mahdi Army of Muqtada al-Sadr was order off the front by him for almost all of 2007 and to say that the violence was down because of the surge is a folly.
A Democrat MUST be elected--any Democrat! My prayer, though is that regardless of whether it is Obama or Clinton, they have the courage to do what is right by these brave men and women and their families - there is no way to make up for what has been done to them, but at least it should be made right as much as possible - they must have the capacity to rebuild their lives somehow.
Our country will eventually recover from all of this - but we are ever diminished by the loss of lives and the devastation to the families of all those impacted by the Iraq war.
Cheney: "So?"
Raddatz: "So-you don't care what the American people think?"
Cheney: "No, I think you cannot be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Cheney's flippant "SO?" is exactly what one could expect from the man you've described, Dave. "He's not running for office and he's been well taken care of."
Cheney's response of "NO" is probably the most truthful answer to any question that's been put to him while he's been in office.
If better than 60% of our population can see it, why can't Congress?
McCain? He's an aging war hero that would like to play one more game of "war" with his buddies. Anyone giving their consideration of vote for McCain had better be sure of one thing: Who would be the Vice President along side of McCain? Because THAT is who would be taking the seat in the Oval office by the end of McCain's 4 years.
Great article, great info, Dave. (As always.)
The concept of fighting wars according to public popularity was introduced by the far left in the 60's and 70's, and the U.S. stature has been in decline ever since. The decline should end in 2021 when we become a province of China.
Damn, why haven't we impeached this pair yet? Why are we apathetically "waiting out" this term, silently mouthing useless prayers that we won't be embroiled in another money making war venture by our capitalists before they step down??? They should not be allowed to step down. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of their own twisted laws.
Yesterday's Bushism quote: From a speech (believe it!) in NICEVILLE, Florida on August 10, 2004: "I didn't join the International Criminal Court because I don't want to pur our troops in the hands of prosecutors from other nations. Look, if somebody has done some wrong in our military, we'll take care of it. We got plenty of capability of dealing with justice."
...'Nuff said.
Blessings to you, Dave, and your family.
Wilka
You certainly do have a way to hook someone to read an article via your email. This is great. Good editorial journalism.
It would be a hilarious comedy, funny were it not filled with abject human suffering and global chaos.
With the massive privatization of military operations undertaken by the Bush criminal cartel, that complex has grown exponentially and profitted beyond the dreams of avarice. War to cost $3 trillion? Where do you think that money is going?
From their true perspective, the one they will never talk about openly in public, the wars are a great success. Four thousand dead American soldiers? No biggie. Twenty-five thousand wounded American soldiers? Not a problem. Thousands upon thousands of traumatized soldiers returning home to inadequate (privatized) medical care? Hasn't hurt the bottom line at all. Hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of dead Iraqis? Well, they didn't have much money to spend anyway.
Blackwater, Halliburton and all the other war profiteers are doing swell, thank you, and their frontmen Cheney, Bush and their new aspiring frontman McCain are all being well taken care of. Everything's peachy!
By the way, everyone talks about John McCain's honourable service to his country in Vietnam and his time spent as a prisoner of war as though this gives the man a certain kind of legitimacy that other candidates don't have. Well, I might agree with that if not for one, stark, revealing truth. McCain famously suffered torture in Vietnam and was seen for a long time as the inflexible opponent to the torture that the USA was inflicting on "unlawful enemy combatants". It seemed at one point that McCain would force the Bush administration to back away from sanctioned torture. In the end, though, McCain embraced the Bush definition of things like waterboarding as merely "aggressive interrogation".
Let's face the truth about this man: there is no moral absolute in his universe. He wants to win, he wants to be president, and he wants the perks that supporting the shadow government of corporate war-mongers will give him. If he has to condone sexual mutilation as "aggressive interrogation" to do that, he will be on board.
I think McCain is a dangerous lunatic, heroic service record notwithstanding.
I won't even go into the Bush/Cheney remarks, as they are nothing more than vitrolic messages of disinformation that demonstrates David's irrational hatred of all things Bush/Cheney.
Let us discuss the Iranian/Al Queda connection David so blithely dismisses simply because Iran is a Shi'ite terrorist nation and Al Queda is a Sunni terrorist organization.
Try this on for size David, you idiot---
Iran is seeking to take control of Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terror network by encouraging it to promote officials known to be friendly to Teheran, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.
According to recent reports received by Western intelligence agencies, the Iranians are training senior al-Qa'eda operatives in Teheran to take over the organisation when bin Laden is no longer leader.
Iran has always maintained close relations with al-Qa'eda, even though the Shia Muslim state is known to have many ideological and strategic differences with the terror group's Sunni leadership.
"This is an important power play by the Iranians and the prospect of al-Qa'eda and Iran forging a close alliance is truly terrifying," said a senior Western intelligence official. "They have had their differences in the past, but with the survival of both Iran and al-Qa'eda now at stake they realise it is in both their interests to have closer ties."
Iran's attempts to forge closer links with al-Qa'eda are understood to have been ordered by President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, who believes Iran and al-Qa'eda share similar aims — destroying the influence of America and its allies in the wider Middle East.
SOURCE
Too bad David can't spread his fear, AND keep up with the news. What a moron.
The arguments u make are exactly the ones Iran, Syria, AlQaeda, Hamas, etc make against America.
War mongers r the same nutjobs, no matter where they hail from.
I quote her....
You told this well, Dave. It is scary when McCain makes such blunders. Apparently, he will do so over and over again.
It is scary that the eventual cost of the war will likely be over 3 trillion.
It is scary that Cheney is such an idiot but scarier that we might have one just as idiotic as the current Bozos.
Kathryn Esplin-Oleski
> surge in Iraq has justified the war's cost.
> Some might say... at an enormous cost, we have
> created nothing more than a major fiasco.
Both can be true, and a "fiasco" can change and can
be fixed or be seen differently. Why are protests
about the war generating less people today?
> Within days, the 4,000th American service
> person will be killed in Iraq.
In WWII it was a questions of weeks into the
war before we lost this many soldiers.
> And, as for the civilian population, no one has bothered
"bothered" - what a loaded word Dave - hmmm, wonder
where you stand on this?
> to keep accurate records, but estimates range from 100,000
> to over 1,000,000 deaths and the displacement of millions
> more.
The Lancet study early on in the war was done by a group
whose methods have come into severe question. If you want
to be honest, the lower bounds of that number should read
about 40,000, and it is far more likely to be true than linearly
extrapolated numbers based on high population areas to the
whole country.
It is most likely from what I have the read the Iraq war will
cost about 2.2 trillion dollars when it is all done over time.
That is for a country whose GDP is over 13 trillion.
If you think about this we are fighting the takeover of the
whole Middle East and beyond by a idealogy equivalent to
the Nazis pre-WWII. Why would anyone who has more than
1 brain cell think that is is not progress and a good thing that
we can do this relatively painlessly while the world chugs on
productively rather than tear the globe apart, put the
whole nation on a war footing, ration energy and food, and
use nuclear weapons.
I understand concern over this issue, and have been a strong
voice for information and opinions in all directions, but you, Dave,
and most of the anti-war group, when you are examined close
up over a long time are just as ridiculous as you want to make
out the Bush administration to be, and you have not done SHIT
in any other way to solve this problem or voice any other
alternatives - except calling for non-specific diplomacy like it is
some kind of medicine.
The use of military force is not always war-mongering, and when
people cannot or do not understand the difference and constantly
speak in exaggerations and hyperbole, you sound just like what
you are trying to attack.
By the way, what is wrong with Lieberman saying the US should
CONSIDER attacking Iran ... it is undoubtedly being done, and it
will undoubtedly be considered whoever is the next President,
because of Iran, not because of us.
The escalating BS from your articles and readers and the group
speak is what happens when people stop caring about trying
to convince others, and just want to propagandize them.
Much as I spend time criticizing them, at least the Bush
administration had theory, consistancy, history and precedent
behind them.
Simply being anti-war while a nice philosophy is not enough
to ensure or guarantee one's survival in this world. This is a
tough situation and every action cannot be correct.
> Who is arming the Sunnis
This is not the real question, there is no real question because
the situation like all adaptive conflicts between human beings
changes depending on strategies that combatants can exploit.
The real question is ... what is Al-Qaeda and the players in the
Middle East playing at, and why do you not look at what they
are doing to their people, how they are spending their soldier's
lives, how they are spending their country's treasure, and how
they are trying to influence the world?
Middle East playing at, and why do you not look at what they
are doing to their people, how they are spending their soldier's
lives, how they are spending their country's treasure, and how
they are trying to influence the world?
If the American people are so against these Illegal wars and occupations why did Ron Paul get so few votes and deligates? He is the ONLY candidate that would shut down that operation and the ONLY candidate qualified to solve our financial quagmire.
Bitch and moan, "We the People", you had your chance. Instead you voted for one of three people that have no idea or expertise.
I am an American, and like all Americans, I do not want to spend any money I can get someone else to spend in service to me. BUT, and this is important, if I shoot your cow, I have to pay for the cow. I might even have to spend time behind bars and pay for the cow, but in all events, if I kill your cow, I have to pay for it. Even if it is by accident. There are exceptions of course, if your cow is trying to kill me for example. But IRAQ NEVER EVEN THREATENED TO DO ANY HARM TO THE USA. And the war in Iraq was no accident no matter how hard your imagination is set to work.
David B., you get the prize for the best one word comment of the year....I'm still chucking...excuse me, chuckling....
"Scary" is a good word, Kathryn, as Leigh also recognized when she seconded your thoughts....
If you're right that this was intentional, Richard T., then we may be in for another round of lies. It would be nice to have a leadership that we could at least trust, even if we disagree.
Ron&Buddy you've described very effectively what many are afraid of - a planned attack on Iran, with or without sufficient cause...the drumbeat of the PNAC and the neocons behind it goes on.
Good point, Richard B. The Shiite Mahdi Army which has been described as being nearly 100,000 strong is now in its second 6-month "stand-down" which is at least partly due to Iran's influence but for which it gets no credit, of course...
Jack E., you raise an excellent point that "we face an enemy without borders." And the result, obviously, is that some feel we should accelerate the aggression, which may become never-ending, and some feel that that is exactly why the term "victory" as we think of it, could never be achieved, and the proper direction should be to attempt a policy of defusion....a conundrum wrapped up in a paradox...
Very well expressed, as always, Rory...I've noticed McCain has backed off on many of his previously expressed views in order to fit in with "the establishment." In that respect, he seems to be quite the opposite from Reagan, for example...
Thanks for expressing your contrary views to those of the contrarian, Marilyn and Bruce K. (nicely expressed, Bruce), and thanks to Spencer T. for expressing his contrary view to the contrary opinion of Randy W. who was also expressing his contrary view to that of the contrarian.
I appreciate the additional information that you so well put, Judi J., Raven Spirit Liz, Kathy W., Larry M., David K., and last, but far from least, Tony S.
And thanks, as well for your comments Ron B., Lora, Dan, ceeee g., Tim H., centrist, Mary M., Colonel, Aunt Boni H., Sigriet, Stefania, Sharon, Ruth M., June C., Steve V., Brian T., Bent, Joe T., and Skip.
All were read with great interest and are appreciated...
great comment, Captain Ken...
Excellent points, as always, Karl...
...and LOL, Jane C.....
An interesting historical note on the civil war, in 1862 Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus throughout the nation and imprisoned an estimated 28,000 copperhead Democrats without charge or trial.
As for Bruce K, you defend the administration "war" policies mainly because you have bought into the "Fear the Muslim" syndrome ... admit it. Anything to further a military expansion to put a "final" stop to the "Muslim Problem" is your own greatest goal ... admit it.
In the final analysis of our world wide polarization, most noticeable right here at home, will be the division between the hawks of war and the doves of peace ... guess who will "win" and how ? But then, just maybe there is a spiritual realm involved with all of this ... in which case there will be "other" outcomes for those who so choose ... !?!
I find McCain's gaffes disturbing only because he repeats them again and again. Once is certainly excusable. Anyone can get tired and misspeak. But you don't do it over and over again the put the same mistake on your website.
I admit I don't understand the Bush neocon knee-jerkers. While their numbers decrease by the day, they steadfastly resist any attempt to remove their heads from where the sun don't shine.
I heard an interesting figure today that could explain why a lot of military men are now refusing to reup. It's called stop loss (yes I know that's not new) and since the military started using it against the troops has resulted in over 100,000 being retained against their wills. Some of them, not sure how many, no longer worry about when they will get out having died in the interim, and even more are permanently maimed. Neither of these would have happened had the government lived up to their contract.
My thinking has stayed the course.
I think of a thief who has robbed a bank, using a well executed plan. We do not root for the thief just because he got a way with it. He is still a thief. An immoral act remains an immoral act regardless of the outcome. There is no winning, only getting away with it!
"The greatest cost of any war is the loss of life. "
The greatest tangible cost may be the loss of life but the greatest lcost in the long run may be the loss of the moral high ground and the thoughtful restraint that goes with it. If having done this once makes it easier to do again we will have lost far more than 4000 soldiers.
If on the other hand we learn from this and make military adventurism a less attractive option for our leaders, we will be moving back to the high road.
"So?" I love it. No truer words to describe the plight of the American public that that single contemptous two letter word. Why those who we depend on in the Congress will not stand up for impeachment of both Bush and Chaney is a mystery to me. One would think they'd like to go down in history as saving the Constitution when it is hanging by a thread. Perhaps they know better than we do that it's already too late?
Anytime , there is war, there will be lives lost, but I am proud to be an American and proud that we have a president who wasnt a coward, such as the previous administration who would not take Osama into customd( which had Clinton of done this) I doubt, there would of been any 9/11, then no Iraq war duh??? If you tell the truth , for most of you on here, its not the loss of lives that you are concerned with, it is the high cost of this war. But there again, you want to vote Dems into power who will increase our taxes. Go figure?
The Dems promised if we get into Congress, we will lower gas prices and we will bring our troops home. Well, what year are they talking about 2025? Another bunch of bs. which is mostly what they preach anyway.
I dont not agree with all of Bushs actions either, but when you only had Kerry to vote for, I didnt see much of a comparison.
Good article Dave and rated 10.
I always offer up sources for nearly all of my opinions on David's articles, yet he never offers ANY sources for his bullshit. Then of course, his sychophants go into high gear.
"great article David" --- even though it's complete bullshit from beginning to end.
*chuckle* what a bunch of rubes
jJack, the same ol' blah blah - can't you contribute anything? Stay away from the counterfit drugs.
Thanks for another good article Dave.
can't you contribute anything?
I can, and do-- hence, all of the irrational ugly reactions *chuckle*
On Iran, by contrast, the (9/11) report concludes that al Qaeda's relationship with Tehran and its client, the Hezbollah militant group, was long-standing and included cooperation on operations, the officials said.
It also details previously unknown links between the two, including the revelation that as many as 10 of the Sept. 11 hijackers may have passed through Iran in late 2000 and early 2001 because Iranian border guards were instructed to let al Qaeda associates travel freely, sources familiar with the report have said.
Commission and government officials emphasize that they have found no indication that Tehran knowingly helped in the plot. But the commission report will cite evidence that Iran allowed al Qaeda members into the country even after the (9/11) attacks. SOURCE
Turabi (Sudan's Islamist leader) sought to persuade Shiites and Sunnis to put aside their divisions and join against the common enemy. In late 1991 or 1992, discussions in Sudan between al Qaeda and Iranian operatives led to an informal agreement to cooperate in providing support—even if only training—for actions carried out primarily against Israel and the United States.
Not long afterward, senior al Qaeda operatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives. In the fall of 1993, another such delegation went to the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon for further training in explosives as well as in intelligence and security. Bin Ladin reportedly showed particular interest in learning how to use truck bombs such as the one that had killed 241 U.S. Marines in Lebanon in 1983.
The relationship between al Qaeda and Iran demonstrated that Sunni-Shia divisions did not necessarily pose an insurmountable barrier to cooperation in terrorist operations. As will be described in chapter 7, al Qaeda contacts with Iran continued in ensuing years. 9/11 Report Page 78 Source 52
Are you going to call the 9/11 report a bunch of lies ??? *chuckle*
I'll call the 9/11 report a bunch of lies. I think it really is.
No surprises there. I do hate to see our VP Cheney react so calleous and boldly arrogant to reply with , "So?" and a facial expression that shows his disdain for the common folk.
I thought we had a democracy - this is more like the aristocracy of old.
However, I had hopes for McCain, because of his Vietnam soldier background (just in case Hillary might not be elected, he would have been my second choice). I'll be looking a lot closer at him, maybe McCain is not all I thought he could be.
On the other hand if you want Hillary (only thing she ever did was marry a President)
Or Obama, a black American from the south side of Chicago, a reformed Muslim (remember again Chicago), to lead America in the next few years, be my guest.
I just don't understand why anyone would vote for any of the above.
We are at WAR but America would rather repair social problems, NOW?
He and the oil boys including the Bush Dynasty have their oil and company responsibilities well covered....I honestly do not know how they can sleep....
Every time I see the President giving one of his " everything is beautiful" speeches, I marvel that there is not one journalist in the audience who dose not stand up - question what he is saying...and demand proof......it absolutely blows me away....
Donna, that journalist, who might challenge the pres. would not be at the next press conf.
Thanks for adding your slants to the discussion Vincent Lemmo and Marty S.
And your views are always welcome and of interest, vickey w.
Good revision of the Cheney quote, Dave A. LOL And that was a thorough analysis....thanks for sharing it...
"Stop Loss" is an apt term for the situation, Carolyn.
And thanks for your comments, Kevin D. Crovo, Jerry Kays, Sharon, Sandy F. Sheila, John Knight, pamela r., David Ball-Romney and - of course - jJack...
bingo *chuckle* such is the irrationality of their hate
Excellent article, Dave.
Bush refused to pursue bin-Laden after declaring him public enemy #1.
Actually Kay it is about the war. We can't change the stolen election, but if enough people try hard enough we might actually be able to force Bush to do positive and effective things to win the occupation despite his botching of the war. Fortunately for all concerned, people such as you and jJack, who seem to honestly believe that Mr. Bush can do no wrong are a decided minority. It's too bad that the Democrats seem intent on snatching defeat from the jaws of victor, and are working so hard to ensure that we have four more years of his disastrous, screw-you policies.
Yes, Dave A., it is deja vu all over again, including the planting of stories with false information and then referring to the planted stories as the source of the accusations. Are we as stupid as they seem to think we are?
Prima Donna, the Newsweek reporter on MSNBC admitted that the media overlooked the lapses that McCain seemed to have "every ten days or so." Is that the best we can do coming up to the final cut, in this election process? I concur with Elizabeth Madrigal's reaction.............................."TERRIFYING."
Good points, Terry and I appreciate your viewpoint, Kay...
And thanks for your additional comment, Carolyn, Jerry and, of course, jJack...
In case you haven't heard it, and I think I put it under one of jJack's articles some time ago: If pro is the opposite of con what's the opposite of progress? Too true to be funny...
what a dolt....
each time i call my family their , they do not have elect., water, clean street , health care , no job , no school , no peace , no security , and who is forceing them out of Iraq, i am talking about the christians , before the goverment of Al baath forced the jewish out , now under our watch and all world , they ask them to leave . as my brothers did and many of my relatives waiting in syria and jordan for the west to take them . And when we withdraw, from Iraq , a blood will be every were in that country ,
it was not wise or logic at all to break the well tranied army and to build a new one. After five years and still that army not ready to control and it will never be ready. because we are there.
Egyptians are also Sunni and Egypt is the only arabic country that has Peace treaty with Israel. And Anwar El Sadat the ex president was the one who went to Israel to achieve Peace despite his victory in 6 october, and Carter the ex American president helped him to achieve this holy Goal.
There is no relation... Sunni or Shiite. Killing Innocents remains the same horrible sin, and Politics remains the Master of the situation.
That's "not" a true statement. They know exactly what they are doing, they just don't care.
On the Sunni / Iran connection. Well, their at it again. First it was Iran's nukes. That didn't fly, so now it's the connection. Does any of this sound familiar. You know WMD's, then Saddam, then Democracy. They throw anything against the wall, to see what sticks. And morons believe them.
Pat batou,
"After fall of baghdad , a short announcement by our troop through iraqi Tv or radio satition , to all iraqi forces to remain in their units and army camps and protect the amination and weapons , and the police forces to resume their duty protecting the civillian . but the oppesite happend the army was dissolved and people looted every thing,the weapons stollen becomes a number one source for the Islamist to attack our troops , Thank you Bremer and thank you Iraqi advicers "
You can also thank the disaster capitalist, of which J. Paul is one of. How can they take over a country, if there is "NO" disaster.
"Nobel economist Milton Friedman, said, economic change never occurs without a crisis shocking the system; whether the crisis is natural, induced or merely perceived, as with enflaming public fears of war and terror threats."
You imply that public opinion in the second world war was pro Japanese and Pro German. You are patently wrong. The American people were very afraid of either entity winning the war. The US government was fighting exactly the way the American public, who are the supposed rulers of this nation, wanted!
"It's better to say nothing and appear stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." - Mark Twain
Good point, James...
And those are good observations, Dr. dummy B., although you're not living up to your alias...
Great comment out of the Middle East, Mary,,,
..And, Paul Batou, no one on Gather can comment with the first-hand knowledge that you have. Thanks for that list of key mistakes that followed our initial invasion. If this country was a corporation, heads would have rolled. Instead, there is no recourse against those that created and magnified this disaster. In reading your comments, we can feel your pain.
Thanks for adding that interesting information, Dave A.
...and I hope you're feeling better now, Carolyn...
Hasn't this (war thing) reached far beyond the point of Absurdity!?!? ...
A Tragic Surreal Absurdity!?!?!?
Do WE really care what Cheney Says at THIS point???
(A man who receives and ACCEPTS an apology from the man who HE shot in the face with a shotgun)
The Key concern I'd say now is what further Chenanigans he Perpetrates before he Exits our Nation's government ...
Just a thought...
Best,
DJE
(Y2K may not have caused the Computing-Social disruption once talked about... But Reality certainly seems to have jumped the tracks since then... No?)
When reality becomes so Absurd, one becomes literally dumbfounded as to what to do or say in the face of it...
But not for too long... ;)
Best...