Discussion Topic #28: PRAYER--What is it? Do you do it? Why or why not?

I pray to focus intent, and to recognize the Divine in my life. I don't see us as separate from the Creator, but as always one with the Creator, we just forget - in that point of view prayer comes naturally, and without the more structured forms some give it. In prayer, I send out hope and energy toward good outcomes for situations that are troubling, but recognize that we don't know what the Plan is and what the best outcome for all would be.

Yes, I pray. My prayers are more in the form of just talking to God. It may be while I'm doing the dishes or when I'm laying in bed trying to fall asleep. I pray because I need that connection with my Maker. It always fills me with hope and my faith is always increased when I pray. My prayers take on different forms...sometimes I just thank Him for my blessings. Sometimes I cry out in anguish to Him to help me make a right decision. Sometimes I just cry out and lean on Him because I'm so lost I don't have a clue what to do. Many times I will just pray for others who I know are going through a a difficult time....or pray for their safety.

Prayer for me is a way to re-charge my spiritual batteries. To be able to regain focus
on what is important in my life and especially for giving thanks. I feel that nothing can
be given without asking for it ,due to free will, so I always ask for protection, health,
and prosperity for myself, family and loved ones.

I probably prayed first, and that probably soon the last also, when well over 60 yrs ago, about the age of the boy in the picture ... quitting because it did not prove to work for me.

There may have been a couple other "desperation" attempts over the subsequent years ... but as far as I knew they didn't work either.

But now that I do have a "version" of God to relate to, I attempt to just live my whole life as a "prayer" of sorts ... just "knowing" that the relationship exists is all that matters to me ...

I have prayed all my life, not for things I want, but for people that I love, and sometimes my prayers have not been answered in the way I wanted them to be, but feel God knows best and when someone is needed he takes them, and then helps me survive. I pray every day all day long, and I say Thank you God, a lot, I think he needs to hear that, I pray last thing before sleeping and I thank God for my blessings in the past and for guidance in helping me in knowing how to take care of my Grandson who is so young and I am old, and I ask God to take care of my husband and daughter in Heaven, and thank him for my children, and ask him to take care of them too. I feel I am one with him, that may sound egotistical, but he is like a well worn friend I am talking too, and after my prayers at night I go into a restful sleep, no matter how my day was that day , I think he looks after me, The last thing instead of saying Amen, I say I love you Lord, goodnight. (I wonder if he minds that) I don't think so.

I pray to clear my mind and some times I laugh as I pray

"Always think of Me and My glory, and be in commune with Me in the attitude 'I am Datta, the great Lord.' "

I love these comments! And Alisa, I love that you sometimes laugh as you pray!

i try to pray everyday, though the prayerrs i say are always different and with diiferent intent. I pray on the web site of the Irish Jesuites, also my favorit catholic theologian Father Thomas merton, lived at the abby of bethsemani, which I keep in touch with the fathers there especially Brother Luke, who taught me a few prayers to say. Also after reading "the way of the pilgrim" and the jeseus prayer I was fascinated by the pilgrims devout attempt at gnosis, a direct contact with the creator of all, the conquering lion of the tribe of juda. I myself try to live a life of constant contact and prayer through rightful action everyday, knowing that my god the God of All Gods is wanting that constant contact also. Like the Whirling Dervish Sufi's of old and the Kahbalic masters of the deserts I look for the gnosis that is available to me. I hope this made sense.

Prayer for me is a way to communicate with God. I start by thanking him. I pray mostly for others. I pray off and on through out the day and always when I lay down to go to sleep at night.

To me, prayer is a invitation for God to "commune" with me. It is foremost a meditative state wherein I am open to His suggestion. I first prayed honestly and sincerely that God do what He wished to remove my doubt about Him, for I did not believe God was real. To my shock and amazement, He removed my doubt by repeatedly demonstrating that He was aware of my inner thoughts, mainly through the Book we call the Bible, in a wide variety of ways, over the course of several weeks.

I was raised as a Catholic and, during my childhood, felt more confusion and uncertainty about God and prayer than anything else. The religious teachings I received at home were mixed (my father, the Catholic, had little input into our instruction in this or any other regard while my mother, the Anglican, seemed to take a hands off approach since she had agreed we would be raised in Dad's faith) and those received at school and through the church were stultifying at best. One thing we were distinctly taught not to do, in very many ways, was to question.

Yet I was full of questions.

By the time I was a young teenager I had abandoned the Catholic faith and become a devout agnostic.

Along the way prayer went from being an endless series of questions to a God who never seemed to answer to something left by the side of the road.

After about 15 years of agnosticism I encountered the faith that would, within a few short months, transform my life in many ways and in all of them for the better.

In my faith we are taught to pray daily (at least). However, I must admit that 15 years of habitually not praying is hard to overcome and I do not always think to pray daily.

When I do pray I find that prayer is a form of meditation. It calms and centres me to pray. I agree with Lune (and others above) who said that God is one with us, I believe He exists within us and within all things. Part of how I pray is an internal conversation with God. I also pray a very formal written prayer.

I do not often ask God for anything in prayer and try very hard to avoid ever asking for any material thing or consideration. Shortly after my father died when my mother was very ill I did pray and ask God to spare her at that time, as I was unready to lose her so soon after losing Dad. He spared her for eight more years, and I am very grateful that He did.

In prayer I find I am forced to be honest and, on some occasions, this has forced me to be more honest with myself. I realize that omniscient God cannot be lied to and find it impossible to pray a lie, and there for impossible to lie to myself when praying.

Sometimes what motivates us to pray is trouble. Our daily travails can lead us to pray for assistance, for strength, for guidance, for favour. However, I find often when I begin to pray for those reasons I feel compelled to first acknowledge how good my life is, how much worse are the lives of many, and to express my gratitude to God for His grace in allowing me such good fortune. This often diffuses my imagined need for His assitance when I realize my hardship is not such a dire need after all. It also helps me to keep looking at life in a positive manner.

Through prayer I believe I have receive one miracle, at least, in my life. My best friend came very close to dying at several points through an ordeal he was faced with many years ago, shortly after I had embraced my faith and reclaimed my belief in God. During the days over which this ordeal played out, and information on his condition and circumstances came to me in dribs and drabs, I prayed continuously for his survivial and safe return. When he did come home and I was able to go see him I learned of the full details of his ordeal. It was clear that he should have died during at least three moments during his ordeal and might likely have died at any other point during those days. It was astonishing that he survived, something that was acknowledged by the medical professionals who treated him upon his return from abroad (they had never seen anything like it).

Now I feel that God does answer prayers. It is not always with miraculous favours granted but more with unfolding wisdom displayed through the workings of His world and His reality, as well as through His many teachings. Sometimes you just have to listen and be still for a while and His revelations make themselves known to you.

I also often remember to include in my prayers, especially prayers in which I have asked for help, the thought: "Your will, not mine."

Prayer is communication. And the whole concept of us, the created, truly communicating with the Creator is so incredible, it's no wonder no one can fully describe it in human words.

PS ... though I already said that prayer did not usually seem to work out for me, reading the comment of Rory above, reminded me also of one time it did seem to manifest in a miracle for another I was deeply concerned about. Of course that happened "after" I became sure of my relationship with God ...

I might add that the first major inkling of the beginning of a "real" relationship being realized by me, was directly related to my very first attempt at a "meditation" ...

Subsequent attempts to learn better the "art" of meditation proved unfruitful for me, I then settled upon deep inner "contemplation" as the method most rewarding to realize "contact" with God.

Thank you everyone. Rory, you have had quite a journey. I really appreciate your willingness to share it with us.

As far as my own prayer life, I started as a child with the "Now I lay me down to sleep..." I prayed to a Father God who lived in the sky on a cloud and watched me from afar, much like Santa Claus, making sure that I behaved myself. My prayers stopped for awhile after I lost my boyfriend in a plane crash during college. I was angry at God.

As I became older, I returned to praying and slowly began to see God as an energy or force in the universe. I saw God in nature, other people, and even sometimes in myself. I began to see God as ever present, all powerful and as divine intelligence. My prayers started to become more affirmative although I still would ask on occasion . Prayers of gratitude would fill my heart also. Now, I try to spend part of my prayer time in the silence and meditation. When I do this I am usually able to become centered in faith and at peace, which helps me to be in a good space during the day at work.

I realize also that those times that I didn't feel the presence of God or that my prayers didn't seem to be answered, were times when I was just not aware of the presence. God is, and always has been, everywhere present. I was like the prodigal child and had to try to do everything on my own. Looking back, I know that I learned from the experience and it was key to my coming to my current strong faith in the presence and power of God. As others have said, I now know that presence to be within me. As Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within."

I do pray--often. God expects it and is pleased when we seek communion with him. It is about speaking to God but it is just as much sitting in silence on the beach, walking in nature on an autumn day, and even in your own living room.

Well, er, no. But I'm glad other people do, and can (freely) in our society. Hope it brings them peace and that connectedness being sought. I strongly think anyone should be able to pray to any god they choose to pray to, and still receive the respect of all.

Thanks, Mary and Kathy.

And Adam, I can always count on you for a few critical words.

Adam, your use of scripture is meant to attack the beliefs of others. You are welcome to share your experiences and beliefs with the group, but instead, as usual, you preach to others about how their beliefs are wrong. Why not share something of yourself and your personal experience rather than just try to demean the beliefs of others, quote scripture (which we all have access to) and try to make yourself seem spiritually superior?

Adam, you are like a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

Adam, you are unaware, but when He "returns," neither will He "know" you, nor you Him ... there is a verse to that effect and I am sure that you have it memorized ... and completely mis-understand it.

Carla, to me prayer is the way to connect with the power of the creator of all that is and a way to humble myself before his awesome power.

Why is there always an argument when there is a question about religion, Adam? Why is there always the pride of, I know more than you do? PR 13:10 By PRIDE cometh only contention; But with the well-advised is wisdom.

When you think you know everything, you stop learning! Wake up and "pray" for the wisdom that he will give you, if you just humble yourself and ask for it.

If you just admit that you are a human, full of pride but willing to learn, you will be shown the meaning of life and why we are here.

I have a bullitin for you, Christ spent a lot of his time trying to correct religious doctrine and it is why he was killed. Religion and doctrine will give us the Antichrist through pride.

Adam, the reason I said that you would mis-understand the verse that I said you DID probably know ... was just displayed in your lack of reading comprehension.

Hey Adam, as I said, you probably can quote chapter and verse based upon your past comments ... but I will here get a bit closer with what I was speaking of ... thanks to John having recently used it on another thread where I copied it as :

" Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. "

Go ahead Adam, knock yourself out insisting that applies only to the rest of "us" ...

Thank you, Teresa, for sharing without demeaning others or casting judgment.

Adam is obviously paying himself by the word, and would quote the whole bible, chapter and verse did space and time enough exist.

Adam, according to other scripture, other things and belief systems exist and thrive. Your's is not, in spite of what your book tells you, the only way.
It is the only way according to your book. And I respect that, and your will to live in the word that you were taught.

That does not, however, mean that you can inflict your vision of damnation on others.
I believe, after reading your posts, that you are actually sactimonious enough to enjoy the vision of others roasting in a fire-y pit, as your rise above the ashes.
It resounds of fanaticism and self-righteousness.
I, sir, am not either, so I wish you the best hereafter possible.

Please, however, do not Damn people on gather. G is not a soap box--it is a venue for sharing your thoughts, not thrusting them on others...there is a subtle but important difference your are missing. Threats of eternal damnation have no space here.
Save it for your Sundays.

Blessed Be, Adam...go in peace.
Wilka

Adam ... good to hear back from you in such detail ... maybe you and I can have a real dialogue ... there are a few things that you are unaware of in regards to the truth ... IMnsHO.

I think I will take a few things you said above and reply:

>>> but surely salvation is the best free gift we could ever receive in this life. Yet, people like yourself scoff at this idea and continue to pervert the gospel and dabble in the occult. <<<<br>
Salvation to your Christian standard is one thing ... something that many claim because they have been baptised and thus consider that the same thing as being "saved", "born-again", "graced", what have you, JUST BECAUSE the "authority" of the religion TOLD THEM SO ... sorry, it really don't work that way in the bigger picture of truth ... there is much disinformation and misunderstanding within the churches about that ... for most, that amounts only to a baptism by "water" ... an "objective" ritual ... a first step on a path. The "real" reception of "salvation" is the baptism by "fire" ... that which happened to Jesus in the river when HE KNEW beyond the simple "act". The SPIRITUAL, and thus subjective experience that is NOT expressible in mere words.

I am sure that a relative few do have a more sublime experience, but there are many levels and variations of that also ... the real proof will be in the pudding. Those who truly know will have little doubt ... the others will just be fooling themselves and any who are ignorant enough to listen to them.

What you do not admit to Adam, is that such "salvation" can, and does, happen to others outside of organized religions and their authorities ... it happened to me so I just happen to know the truth of that (I wrote a BOOK about it) ... that is why I write the things that I do here on Gather, there are "other" ways, and BETTER ways to experience a relationship with God ...

People such as yourself that have had no "other" experiences other than those of your religious rituals based upon dogma and creed handed down by men, authorized by who ? ... other men, also authorized by other men (seldom IF ever a woman) ... you claim all of that MORE VALID than a REAL experience such as mine ... your dogma teaches you fear ... fear to consider other truths because you are told they will be false and dangerous coming from the adversary, Satan himself ... fear fear and more fear.

Yes, there is a "dark" occult that may warrant fear from some, but there is also a "white" occult of the light (try looking up the word in your dictionary, it is NOT necessarily "evil" or dangerous) ... but your fear would keep you away from ever seeking those truths of differentiation.



>>> Hence, the importance of having a real faith rather than a "said" faith. <<<<br>
So true, "that" is just what I have been telling you. Even far more important is having a REAL EXPERIENCE which gives one a BELIEF transcending mere faith ...

>>> …..so what else is left? <<<<br>
The REAL THING that I have been telling you about ... and probably other things that I know of but have not had the actual experience of ...


>>> The bottom line of course is that NONE of these groups KNOW the REAL JESUS PERSONALLY. His Spirit indwells believers upon conversion and continues to sanctify them until finally they are glorified in the Resurrection. Living a "good life" only goes so far…..one can live a "good life" and have no concept of the living God of the universe. <<<<br>
Living a good life without the slightest inclination towards a "faith" or religion, may well be far MORE rewarding in the bigger picture of eternity than would the lessor of the religious experiences I have mentioned. IMnsHO. God will know His own !


>>> —the real Jesus of Scripture. <<<<br>
The "real Jesus" of "scripture" IS ONLY THAT ... ONE OF SCRIPTURE ... Jesus THE CHRIST is but a religious descriptor for what is THE SPIRIT of GOD by ANY OTHER higher truth of definition based upon the SUBJECTIVE, and even METAPHORIC experience of any person that has been "baptised by fire" ... inside OR outside of a religion !!!

Adam, of course you are free to believe your authorized belief ... but it surely does keep you in a very small "box" based upon dogma and creed as ONLY allowed by "your" authorities ... no problem for you because that is your free choice ... but for the very same reason that you speak up against "other" concepts ... is the same reason that I speak up against your "limited" concept ... the rest of the people of the world deserve better ... transcendent truth is subjective and personal ... and when it involves unconditional love and highest truth, it does not get any better than that ... no matter what anyone else says !!!

May you someday find the real peace, that which surpasses all other, the truth that will finally set you free ... free to understand and believe what I have been here telling you.

Adam, I will attempt to keep this rather brief because I have already said my piece and written a book to back it up ... you my friend would have to do a lot more reading to even come close to understanding ... (but based upon the way you now seem to think, even that would not help you).

But the "problem" for you Adam is that you speak from the exoteric perspective of objectivity, the realm of the fundamental realism of words, literally. Things of the "proven" through the 5 sensory experience(s) of your "religion", also of the same "field," even though it speaks of, and claims, things of the spirit, more specifically THE Spirit. Your "Book(s)" which you base everything upon, the "written word(s)", yes, ORIGINALLY INspired from God through Prophets and others ... but written way after the fact via many translations OF MEN who may or may NOT have had the "proper" interpretation and meaning. (I have already told you of the differences in the parables spoken by Jesus and the "two" understandings, the exoteric for people like yourself and the esoteric for people such as I (and Mr Fillmore) ... "arrogant" your "ego" would call me in your ignorance ... sorry but true.

There is a vast history, being expanded all of the time as new discoveries of ancient "writings" reappear, many mentioning countless other earlier "rejected" "books" that were (such as during Constantine's reign) deemed not suitable to enforce the "preferred" word of God at THAT TIME which they wanted to "guide" the followers in the direction and understanding that those "men" preferred the "flock" to take.

So Adam, you make all of the claims you want about "your" understanding of the religion you profess, but there are many others within that who see it different than you do ... but in a nutshell, your view is an old historic one based upon passed down words that you somehow claim to be the ONLY real truth and you attempt to back that up with other passed down words of similar questionable "validity" ...

You seem to think that the present age has no possibility of being contacted by God, that any who claim so are of the dark occult and either evil or headed that way ... you ask me on what authority that I speak ... I tell you that on the very same authority that your books are based upon, the words of God ... only spoken personally and subjectively, ONE on one. Yes, believe it or not ... I rather suspect that you will go with the "negative" thinking (and claiming) it to be the "positive" ... proof of what I have been saying really.

As for TRUTH ... what do "you" personally REALLY know of it ... besides your handed down words ?? It is evident to me that you have had little or no experience yourself other than the objective versions that you so value as you completely dismiss the subjective experiences based upon INternal Spiritual INtuitive natures ... The ONLY absolute Truth is that known only of and by God ... all other beliefs are but "relative" truths in comparison ... of course "you" would deny that ... your ignorance and thus your loss really.

How can you really be so ignorant as to consider that God and God's Spirit are OBJECTIVE in nature ??? They of course ARE, based upon YOUR religious (exoteric) understandings ... such that you really have no idea of what even Christian Esotericism amounts to ... believing what "your" church leaders have said about it being heretical and being of that dreaded "occult" ... typical of your objective exotericism ... and you think that I, am the ignorant and misled one ...

PS Adam, there is nothing about me and what I say and write that you can "prove" to be in error without showing your own errors of misunderstanding ... it is said that one cannot prove a negative ... and from your perspective everything you would disagree with would be a negative ... good luck ... consider it a challenge if you like ... but you might have to read my book to in able to make a decent attempt ... who knows, you may end up very happy to be proven wrong for once ... :-)

Jerry,

You can't prove I'm not Osama bin-Laden, or that oil won't be ten dollars a barrel in the near future. So what, there's an infinite number of things that cannot be disproved, but that doesn't make them truths. Or make all statements about what is true equivalent.

I understand quite thoroughly that spirituality, and subjectivity, and a "personal relationship" with God are vital, in approaching these matters; but I will not cast aside reason itself, to enshrine the products of reason, that I may produce in my imagination. I know I have been wrong about a great many things, and some of them involve the very matters we speak of. I am just a man.

When folks say they don't want to be "limited" to the Word itself, they don't seem to comprehend that one cannot just incorporate a few cliche images and simpleton notions into ones pronouncements, and thereby include the Word in one's reasoning. You can't have "more" than the Book, if you don't have the Book. You calling it dogma, or silly stories, or whatever, doesn't make it that. We are speaking of quite possibly the most influential writings in the history of the world, not just some haphazard collection of 50 crackpot's speculations. Also the most scrutinized, and criticized, and corroborated, and carefully maintained, and well documented, and contemplated.

You speak of "spiritual connectedness", and what if you are right? Do you not realize the incredible degree of validity that would lend to the teaching and authenticity of that Book? Do you not realize that concept, in a far more precise and elegant form, is at the very heart of the idea of being a Christian? What do you think all this communion with a Holy Spirit, and brotherhood of Jesus, and walking with God, is all about? Talismans and trinkets? His very Kingdom is of the Spirit, at this particular moment in time.

Yes, John, the kingdom is of the Spirit. God is Spirit. And that Spirit is within each of us.

As Jesus Christ said, we are to love our neighbor as we love ourself. Jesus made it pretty clear that this was his most important teaching. I can read the Bible from dawn till dark and if I do not have a personal relationship with God, a feeling of God's presence and love, then what do I really have? Words. The words must come alive through our experience and our expression. Our religion must not be a dead one but a living one of experience and expression in our relationships with others. We must not worship books or symbols, images or people but live the higher truth that lifts us up and unites us. Anyway that is my personal belief.

I have been on the receiving end of how you and Adam seek to find faults and to make others wrong in their spiritual beliefs, but, in my opinion, you are not helping the world in that way but merely strengthening your own egotistical need to be seen as right. Being right does not solve the problems of this day, it merely fosters an "us" and "them" mentality and creates more divisiveness and polarization.

It is so difficult for you to acknowledge that there is truth in all religions and their teachings. I do not believe that Jesus came to start a religion. He was a Jew and he was trying to bring the spirit of the teachings back into the law and to get away from their hypocritical way of living. I think that he would be shocked at the way Christianity, the religion that was named after him, has been used over the years to ignite messages of hatred and bigotry.

Regardless, I'm sure that we will probably never agree on these things. But the difference is that I don't think that we need to. I am quite satisfied with my beliefs, which have come through my study, meditation, prayer and life itself over the last 58 years. If you, John, and Adam, are at peace in your soul with your relationship with God and with your beliefs then I am happy for you.

John, well said from your perspective and I agree with much of it if not most ... from my perspective ...

But I agree so much more with Carla's perspective ...

Adam, I have said my piece to you and stand by it as you do yours, the only thing that I can think to add here is that you appear to claim that I reject objectivity ... I do not, I use it, but I do not stake my all upon it as you would, that being the difference between us.

I believe the Spiritual realm speaks to us via our INner INtuition and is thus subjective and a priori to the manifested physicality of the objective, which is in fact and truth IMnsHO, a posteriori ... cause and effect, with a slight edge to cause ... you seem to have that all "turned around", typical of objectivity. Just a matter of priorities and preferences ... :-)

Enjoy yours, I sure do mine !

Uhh John, ... " You can't prove I'm not Osama bin-Laden, or that oil won't be ten dollars a barrel in the near future. So what, there's an infinite number of things that cannot be disproved, but that doesn't make them truths. Or make all statements about what is true equivalent. "

But I do NOT attempt to "prove" anything, because in my philosophy of (+=-) there will always be a paradox of the unprovable and the unknowable.

And by that same concept, the things that you claim that I cannot prove one way or the other, the things that "I" am concerned with, unlike "who is Osama ?", CANNOT BE DISPROVEN either.

My subjective relationship is that of the INner ... that of objectivity is that of the OUTer. The INner is that which is personal and Spiritual ... the OUTer is that which is societal, like is "religion" ... IMnsHO.

Truth is an inner relativity ... Facts are but societal agreements, nothing more. Again, IMnsHO, nothing more and all relative. :-)

Jerry,

"My subjective relationship is that of the INner ... that of objectivity is that of the OUTer. The INner is that which is personal and Spiritual ... the OUTer is that which is societal, like is "religion"

I recognize no barrier between what you call inner and outer. These are terms which seem to be addressing the fact that some of what we experience comes through external senses, and some through internal ones. The totality cannot be rationally spoken of as divided in any real way, along such rhetorically contrived lines, as far as I can tell. An "outer" is rather obviously going on, but of course, we experience it within.

I believe you are actually speaking of the IDEA of an inner and the IDEA of an outer, both of which are products of the mind, of memory. But the suns of that realm cast only a dim echo of the light of the sun, without warmth or glaring insistence. The suns of that realm can rise and set at our command, but the actual sun? It does the commanding, and we cannot alter the spinning of the earth one bit. So too the gods of mind and memory, which come and go at our suggestion, but not so a real God, who is what He is, and answers to no one.

I have little interest in the gods of the mind, and find them unimpressive. It is no wonder to me that you would not find praying to them effective, for they are but phantoms of your own creation.

Carla,

I believe the actual point of contention between us is well displayed in your words here;

"if I do not have a personal relationship with God, a feeling of God's presence and love, then what do I really have? "

I do not place any great value on such "feelings" themselves, and know that they can arise for many reasons. If God is real, there will be no shortage of such responses from within us, and we will have an eternity to dwell on them if we wish. Triggering them with ideas or images, or heeding them as if divine messages, seems like an invitation to self delusion. When I watch a movie, and someone is shot, I may feel "pain", or "grief", or whatever, but that does not mean anything significant is really happening to me. If I create my own movie in my mind, I can include the concept of someone being killed "in reality", but that is just another illusion, and the feelings I may have are just echos of pain and grief, not at all like what happens when a loved one really dies.

You do the thing I spoke of earlier, where the Word of God, is reduced to just "words", and that makes no sense. You saying He didn't generate specific text, in no way limits God. That just limits the one saying it. If God intended that text to be a reflection of what He wished us to know, then that's what it is, and it doesn't matter how we feel about it.

Believing things cause they make us feel good, is hardly a "spiritual" path, it's a pleasant path at times, but still just hedonism in the end.

John, you made a comment above where I supposedly said something about how "He didn't generate specific text, in no way limits God." I made no comment whatsoever about God and text. I do not believe as you do, that God sat down and penned the books of the Bible. I believe that the Bible was written by many different people who were inspired.

My comment was about how we should not worship the Bible and that if we had no personal relationship with God/Spirit then the Bible would be just words. It is my relationship with God that is the basis of my faith. I read the Bible for inspiration and to be spiritually fed. But God is not found in the Bible. God is found in relationship, in my own heart and soul and in others. God in expression is how we treat one another and the love that we have for one another.

You seem to put down anything that has to do with feelings, John. And the idea that we should feel good and be happy and joyous in our faith seems to be foreign to you. It seems like for Adam and for you that your faith is about how miserable we all are as sinners and that God is a vengeful, jealous and angry God who wants us all to be unhappy. You have, it seems, managed to create God in your own image.

Jerry and I have consistently told you that we are quite happy with our faith and at peace with our relationship with the Infinite. But you (and Adam) continually try to tear that down, condemn us and judge us. I feel sorry for you both that your faith has brought you only the desire to make others into enemies and to claim that your way is the only right way.

Carla,

"You seem to put down anything that has to do with feelings, John."

No, I'm saying that feelings are not sacred. To you, they may be astounding and unexplainable at times, but that does not justify calling them "spiritual truths". Feelings are responses of the overall intelligence to various stimuli, and they serve an indispensable purpose in responding to life as fully functional human beings. However, they are not in anyway divine, simply because one happens to be contemplating things they believe are divine.

My objection is not to the feelings, they are a miraculous aspect of consciousness, beyond simple explanation or definition. My objection is to the notion that the best a human being can hope for is a "feeling of the presence of God", for that is rather mundane to me, and not something worth worship or devotion. I have seen far more than such emotional indications of God's presence, and there were plenty of strong feeling generated by those observations. Without the observations though, the feelings would just be stuff I felt.

It seems many can't grasp the concept of a real God, and assume that those who speak of such things are limited to imaginary stuff, or ideas they generate themselves. This is rather presumptuous, though quite understandable, and I myself assumed the very same . . . right up till I was taught some very profound lessons, which were intermingled with events in the real world.

I understand that I alone saw the whole of what I saw, but many others speak of seeing very similar things, and there is no shortage of witnesses one can hear from. That you personally have not observed such startling occurrences, is really not my problem or concern. I had strong feelings along the lines of what you seem to be speaking of, and those are NOT what convinced me God was real. I'm rather skeptical by nature, and it took some really clear demonstrating before God got it through my thick skull that He was not just a feeling, but a living Being, able to enter my mind and awareness at will, and direct my attention to anything He wished, regardless of how I tried to look away.

The "problem" with your approach to "text", is clearly indicated by your incessant calls for me to accept text as sacred, which has in no way been demonstrated to me to be sacred. This is unthinkable to me, and I cannot understand how you avoid seeing the folly in such an approach. Surely it requires more than rumours to convince you something is a fact, so why would rumours be sufficient in regards to sacred things? Is that not just begging to be misled, and to place the profane in the same esteem as the truly Divine? What then is the point of Divinity?

John, you seem to be confused about my beliefs and consistently put words in my mouth. I have never said that you should accept text as sacred. What you wish to see as sacred is totally up to you. Perhaps you're getting me mixed up with Adam.

You have obviously had a profound experience that has changed your spiritual beliefs and been transforming. But I have also had this experience, as have others. So please do not discard or dismiss the experience of others and write as if our experiences are inferior to yours and have no merit. Spirituality is extremely personal. And that is why I respect and acknowledge the beliefs of other religions. We all have to walk our own path. Your experience of God is going to be different from mine. Can you accept that and not judge?

Carla.

Me not judge? Just look at these statements;

"Adam, your use of scripture is meant to attack the beliefs of others"

"Adam, you are like a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal"

"Why not share something of yourself and your personal experience rather than just try to demean the beliefs of others, quote scripture (which we all have access to) and try to make yourself seem spiritually superior?"

That's YOU reacting to Adam expressing his beliefs. You can claim you're being accepting all you wish, but what you actually do is deride any beliefs, and those who express them, simply because you don't agree. You don't consider the Bible the actual communication of God to people, so you don't hesitate in the slightest to disparage it as a pack of lies, promulgated to deceive people. It says it's the Word of God, if it ain't, it's lying. You don't just say you do not find it to be what it claims, you go right ahead and state it is not what it claims.

How is that respecting the beliefs of others? It sure LOOKS like attacking the beliefs of others. Because you don't see something more than the words of men, you casually declare it cannot be more than that, as though you were a freakin' God or something.

"I have been on the receiving end of how you and Adam seek to find faults and to make others wrong in their spiritual beliefs"

No judgmentalism there, eh Carla? That's not you judging me, right?

" You seem to put down anything that has to do with feelings, John. And the idea that we should feel good and be happy and joyous in our faith seems to be foreign to you"

Just chatting, I suppose.

"But God is not found in the Bible"

Just expressing some acceptance of others beliefs, no doubt.

" Being right does not solve the problems of this day, it merely fosters an "us" and "them" mentality and creates more divisiveness and polarization."

No judgmentalism there, just making the simple observation that being right is the same as causing trouble. What could be more peaceful?

Carla, you have clearly taken up the idea that saying what one believes true, is unimportant, and even outright wrong, if someone else doesn't think it's true. What on earth are you talking about? If Adam believes you are bound for death, what in the world harm does that do you? You don't think Adam actually controls such things, do you? If you don't think the Book is genuine, what difference does it make to you what it says about obtaining the Mercy of God? How can someone else believing in it cause you any harm?

You are playing "mind police" here, in that you espouse this wacky concept that we must all think sappy stuff about everything, or we will cause some sort of bad vibe to exist, apparently. Well, guess what, that's an awfully bad vibe to me, cause it is accusing people of hurting others, by not abandoning what they have seen, so as to make nice with folks they will never have any relationship to. You are calling those who believe things that make you feel bad when you hear them, malicious. It's a paradise of vegetables you are championing, not an adult concept of tolerance.

John, approaching 2 years now of dialogue with you, where I, as carefully as I can, choose as simple of words as I can, that make the points I need, to express my concepts so that you can hopefully understand them ... has in no way proven successful in your case.

I have even attempted to explain why I think that you are NOT "getting it" ... but you are so arrogant as to believe that only you yourself have the correct answers and/or that IF you do not, then nobody does (because I suppose that you are at least as smart in your mind as are all of the rest of us) yet IF we saw evidence, even in your own scripture, that we could be considered as a god even (not God) and especially forgiven of our "sins" through our Spiritual relationships, you John would boastfully say (in False humility) that you are but a man and a sinner yet, as are all men ... how ignorant you are about potentials John ... and your denial of them is what will keep you in that ignorant realm of non-experience.

For you John, there is NO connection whatsoever between human minds, how utterly objective and egotistic of you John ... that is a complete denial of what Spirit is all about IMnsHO.

But then you "accuse" me of rhetoric, which I would take as compliment coming from anyone else ... and then in knowing you as I do, and reading your words in this thread and others, I would say, in the pejorative sense that it is, that you are rather "bombastic," if not euphuistic ... probably the latter when it comes to your sticking "your" little people into "our" minds ...

As I have many times before, as have others, told you that you are disingenuous in what you claim about what we have said to you as you spin, distort and twist our words and meanings in order to somehow feel more "superior" in your own take on meanings ... then as you have done on this thread, mix your own metaphors and actually change your own positions ... repeatedly ... I see you as nothing better than a hypocrite in "these" discussions.

I feel that I have given you the benefit of the doubt as to any possible honour you may have about truth and compassion for those that think differently than you do on religious and spiritual matters ... but I am now about ready to just give up on you in that regard ... you seem to be NOT worth the effort it takes to educate about the transcendence that "could" await you in matters spiritual ... you are all hung up with defending what you see as attacks from others that have had as least as "valuable" experiences as yours, NOT so directly associated with just what you claim ... somehow ours are NOT valid to you because you believe that only "your" perception of such is allowable to God ... of course it is only your God (as You would describe "Him") that has merit ... never ours ... no way.

You are becoming almost hopeless to me John ... at least Adam is very straight forward and understandable in what he says and claims ... he does not waffle around like you do John ... I give up ... again.

Enjoy your delusions of the "little people" in your own isolated and limited objective mind John ... evidently "they" are telling you that you are extremely "unique" in your objective 5 sensory "normalness" that places the 6th sense of INtuition as just another of "your" isolated little people, undifferentiated.

Bye ...

I would agree, Jerry.

John, you seem to forget that my comments to you were in response to your attacks against me. I did not go to an article that you wrote and attack you. If you would leave your comments, as most others do, with just your beliefs and ideas, without attacking the beliefs of others, then there would be no problem. When I comment about this behavior, you turn it around and say that I am attacking you. So it is you that has started this John.

But I have had enough of this, because it is clear to me now that you are only looking for a fight or an argument. Those who are insecure in their beliefs feel the need to attack the beliefs of others. I will no longer do the dance with you or pull on the rope that you dangle in front of me. Jerry is right about you. And this is a definite waste of my time on a beautiful Sunday. Have a nice life, John.

Peas in a pod.

I pray every night and I do so for a number of reasons. First and most important is that I love the Lord with all my heart and want to tell Him so. My other reasons include having a chance to commune with Him, tell Him my troubles, focus on His greatness and ask for forgiveness when necessary. It is a time that I truly treasure and it has gotten to the point after so many years that I cannot fall asleep unless I pray first!

Thanks for sharing this, Martha. It sounds like prayer is a very important part of your life.

yes I pray

Yes, I do pray, though not as often as I probably should. The Lord's prayer is the way I believe we should pray because it is the way we are told to pray. Although we don't have to pray those exact words every time we pray, the words of the Lord's prayer indicate that we are not praying to change the mind of God, but in keeping with his will.

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God is omnipotente, omnisciente and good!
God could not be the three things.
If he will be omnipotente and omnisciente, then it has knowledge of the evil all and power to finish with it, still thus does not make it. It is not good.
If omnipotente will be and good, then it has to be able to extingir the evil and wants to make it, therefore it is good. But it does not know how much badly it exists.
If omnisciente will be and good, then it knows all of the evil and wants to change it. But this eliminates the possibility of being omnipotente, therefore if it it was eradicated the evil.

1 god created the logical man
2 gods wants that man uses logic
3 gods dos not wants that man venerate god
4 religious people are enemy of god

that explaines explaines the west islam and china