Democratic Debate Transcript: Part Two

DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES PARTICIPATE IN A DEBATE SPONSORED BY
MSNBC

     FEBRUARY 26, 2008 - Part 2


     XXX  a good agreement." 

     RUSSERT:  Will you as president say, we are out of NAFTA in six
months?

     CLINTON:  I have said that I will renegotiate NAFTA, so obviously
you'd have to say to Canada and Mexico that that's exactly what we're
going to do.  But you know, in fairness...

     RUSSERT:  So let me be clear...

     CLINTON:  Yes, I am saying...

     RUSSERT:  You will get out, you will notify Mexico and Canada,
NAFTA is gone in six months?

     CLINTON:  No.  I will say, we will opt out of NAFTA unless we
renegotiate it.  And we renegotiate it on terms that are favorable to
all of America.

     But let's be fair here, Tim.  There are lots of parts of New York
that have benefited, just like there are lots of parts of Texas that
have benefited.  The problem is in places like upstate New York, places
like Youngstown, Toledo and others throughout Ohio that have not
benefited.  And if you look at what I've been saying, it has been
consistent.

     You know, Senator Obama told the farmers of Illinois a couple of
years ago that he wanted more trade agreements...

     RUSSERT:  We're going to get -- we're going to get to Senator
Obama.

     CLINTON:  ... like NAFTA.

     RUSSERT:  But I want to stay on your comments...

     CLINTON:  Well, but that -- but that is important.

     RUSSERT:  ... because this was something that you wrote about as a
real success for your husband.  You said it was good on balance for New
York and America in 2004.  And now you're in Ohio, and you're words are
much different, Senator.  The record is very clear.

     CLINTON:  Well, you don't have all the record, because you can go
back and look at what I've said consistently.  And I haven't just said
things, I have actually voted to toughen trade agreements, to try to put
more teeth into our enforcement mechanisms.  And I will continue to do
so.

     But, you know, Tim, when you look at what the Cleveland "Plain
Dealer" said when they examined the kind of criticism that Senator Obama
was making of me, it's not me saying it.  They said it was erroneous.
And it was erroneous because it didn't look at the entire picture, both
of what I said and what I've done.  But let's talk about what we're
going to do.

     It is not enough just to criticize NAFTA, which I have, and for
some years now.  I have put forth a very specific plan about what I
would do.  And it does include telling Canada and Mexico that we will
opt out unless we renegotiate the core labor and environmental
standards.

     Not side agreements, but core agreements.  That we will enhance the
enforcement mechanism, and that we will have a very clear view of how
we're going to review NAFTA going forward to make sure it works.
And we're going to take out the ability of foreign companies to sue us
because of what we do to protect our workers.

     I would also say that you can go back and look at from the very
beginning.  I think David Gergen was on TV today remembering that I was
very skeptical about it.

     It has worked in some parts of America.  It has not worked in Ohio.
It has not worked in upstate New York.  And since I've been in the
Senate, neither of us voted on this.  That wasn't something either of us
got to cast an independent vote on.

     Since I have been in the Senate, I have worked to try to ameliorate
the impact of these trade agreements.

     RUSSERT:  But let me button this up.  Absent the change you're
suggesting, you are willing to opt out of NAFTA in six months?

     CLINTON:  I'm confident that as president, when I say we will opt
out, unless we renegotiate, we will be able to renegotiate.

     RUSSERT:  Senator Obama, you did, in 2004, talk to farmers and
suggest that NAFTA had been helpful.  The Associated Press today ran a
story about NAFTA saying that you have been consistently ambivalent
towards the issue.

     A simple question.  Will you as president say to Canada and Mexico,
this has not worked for us, we are out?

     OBAMA:  I will make sure that we renegotiate in the same way that
Senator Clinton talked about, and I think actually Senator Clinton's
answer on this one is right.  I think we should use the hammer of a
potential opt-out as leverage to ensure that we actually get labor and
environmental standards that are enforced.

     And that is not what has been happening so far.  That is something
that I have been consistent about.

     I have to say, Tim, with respect to my position on this, you know,
when I ran for the United States Senate, the "Chicago Tribune,"
which was adamantly pro-NAFTA noted that in their endorsement of me,
they were endorsing me despite my strong opposition to NAFTA.  And that
conversation that I had with the Farm Bureau, I was not ambivalent at
all.

     What I said was that NAFTA and other trade deals can be beneficial
to the United States, because I believe every U.S. worker is as
productive as any worker around the world.  And we can compete with
anybody.

     And we can't shy away from globalization.  We can't draw a moat
around us.  But what I did say in that same quote, if you look at it,
was that the problem is we've been negotiating just looking at corporate
profits and what's good for multinationals, and we haven't been looking
at what's good for communities here in Ohio, in my home state of
Illinois, and across the country.  And as president, what I want to be
is an advocate on behalf of workers.

     Look, you know, when I go to these plants, I meet people who are
proud of their jobs.  They are proud of the products that they have
created.  They have built brands and profits for their companies.  And
when they see jobs shipped overseas and suddenly they're left not just
without a job, but without health care, without a pension, and are
having to look for seven-buck-an-hour jobs at the local fast-food joint,
that is devastating on them, but it's also devastating on the community.

     That's not the way that we're going to prosper as we move forward.

     RUSSERT:  Senator, two journalists here in Ohio wrote a piece
called, "Business as Usual," which is very well known, suggesting it
wasn't trade or manufacturing jobs that were being lost because of it,
but rather business as usual, lack of patents, lack of innovation, lack
of investment.  Seventy percent of the Ph.D.s in biology, chemist,
engineering, leaving the state.

     The fact is, exports now have the highest share of our national
income ever.  Ohio ranks fourth in terms of exports to Canada and
Mexico.

     Are you sure this has not been better for Ohio than you're
suggesting?

     OBAMA:  I'm positive that it hasn't been better for Ohio.  But you
are making a very legitimate point, which is, is that this -- trade
can't be the only part of our economic agenda.


     OBAMA:  Look, we've seen seven years in which we have a president
who has been looking out for the well-heeled and people who are doing
very well in the global economy in the financial industries, in the
telecommunications industries, and has not been looking out for ordinary
workers.

     What do we have to do?  We're going to have to invest in an
infrastructure to make sure that we're competitive, and I've got a plan
to do that.

     We're going to have to invest in science and technology.  We've got
to vastly improve our education system.  We have to look at energy and
the potential for creating green jobs that can not just save on our
energy costs, but more importantly, can create jobs in building
windmills that will produce manufacturing jobs here in Ohio, can put
rural communities back on their feet by working on alternative fuels,
making buildings more energy efficient.

     We can hire young people who are out of work and put them to work
at a trade.  So there are all sorts of things that we're going to have
to do to make the United States economy much more competitive and those
are plans that I have put forward in this campaign and I expect to
pursue as president of the United States.

     RUSSERT:  Senator Clinton, on the issue of jobs, I watched you the
other day with your economic blueprint in Wisconsin, saying, "This is my
plan, hold me accountable."  And I've had a chance to read it very
carefully. 

     It does say that you pledge to create five million new jobs over 10
years, and I was reminded of your campaign in 2000 in Buffalo, my
hometown, just three hours down Route 90, where you pledged 200,000 new
jobs for upstate New York.

     There's been a net loss of 30,000 jobs.  And when you were asked
about your pledge, your commitment, you told the "Buffalo News," "I
might have been a little exuberant." 

     CLINTON:  Well...

     RUSSERT:  Tonight, will you say that the pledge of five million
jobs might be a little exuberant?

     CLINTON:  No, Tim, because what happened in 2000 is that I thought
Al Gore was going to be president and when I made the pledge, I was
counting on having a Democratic White House, a Democratic president, who
shared my values about what we needed to do to make the economy work for
everyone and to create shared prosperity.

     And as you know, despite the difficulties of a Bush administration
and a Republican Congress for six years of my first term, I have worked
very hard to create jobs.  But, obviously, as president, I will have a
lot more tools at my disposal.

     And the reason why we can create at least five million new jobs
-- I mean, this is not a big leap -- 22.7 million new jobs were created
during the eight years of the Clinton administration under my husband.

     We can create at least five million new jobs.  I'm not just talking
about it.  I helped to pass legislation to begin a training program for
green collar jobs.  I want to see people throughout Ohio being trained
to do the work that will put solar panels on roofs, install wind
turbines, do geothermal, take advantage of biofuels.

     And I know that if we had put $5 billion into the stimulus package
to really invest in the training and the tax incentives that would have
created these jobs, as the Democrats wanted, as I originally proposed,
we would be on the way to creating those.

     You know, take a country like Germany.  They made a big bet on
solar power.  They have a smaller economy and population than ours.
They've created several hundred thousand new jobs, and these are jobs
that can't be outsourced.

     These are jobs that have to be done in Youngstown, in Dayton, in
Cincinnati.  These are jobs that we can create here with the right
combination of tax incentives, training and a commitment to following
through.

     So I do think that at least five million jobs are fully capable of
being produced within the next 10 years.

     RUSSERT:  Brian?

     WILLIAMS:  Senator Obama, yesterday, Senator Clinton gave a speech
on foreign policy, and I'm going to read you a quote from it.

     Quote, "We've seen the tragic result of having a president who had
neither the experience nor the wisdom to manage our foreign policy and
safeguard our national security.  We cannot let that happen again.
America has already taken that chance one time too many."

     Some of the comments in the speech were more pointed.  The Senator
has compared your foreign policy expertise to that of George W. Bush at
the same period.

     Provided you could be going into a general election against a
Republican with vast foreign policy expertise and credibility on
national security, how were her comments about you unfair?

     OBAMA:  Well, Senator Clinton, I think, equates experience with
longevity in Washington.  I don't think the American people do and I
don't think that if you look at the judgments that we've made over the
last several years, that that's the accurate measure.

     On the most important foreign policy decision that we face in a
generation, whether or not to go into Iraq, I was very clear as to why
we should not, that it would fan the flames of anti-American sentiment,
that it would distract us from Afghanistan, that it would cost us
billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and would not make us more
safe, and I do not believe it has made us more safe.


     OBAMA:  Al Qaida is stronger than any time since 2001, according to
our own intelligence estimates. 

     And we are bogged down in a war that John McCain now suggests might
go on for another 100 years, spending $12 billion a month that could be
invested in the kinds of programs that both Senator Clinton and I are
talking about. 

     So on Pakistan, during the summer, I suggested that not only do we
have to take a new approach towards Musharraf, but we have to get much
more serious about hunting down terrorists that are currently in
northwestern Pakistan. 

     And many people said at the time, "Well, you can't target those
terrorists because Musharraf is our ally and we don't want to offend
him."  In fact, what we had was neither stability in Pakistan nor
democracy in Pakistan. 

     And had we pursued a policy that was looking at democratic reforms
in Pakistan, we would be much further along now than we are. 

     So on the critical issues that actually matter, I believe that my
judgment has been sound and it has been judgment that I think has been
superior to Senator Clinton's, as well as Senator McCain's. 

     WILLIAMS:  Well, Senator Clinton, in the last debate you seemed to
take a pass on the question of whether or not Senator Obama was
qualified to be commander-in-chief.  Is your contention in this latest
speech that America would somehow be taking a chance on Senator Obama as
commander-in-chief? 

     CLINTON:  Well, I have put forth my extensive experience in foreign
policy, you know, helping to support the peace process in Northern
Ireland, negotiating to open borders so that refugees fleeing ethnic
cleansing would be safe, going to Beijing and standing up for women's
rights as human rights, and so much else. 

     And every time the question about qualifications and credentials
for commander-in-chief are raised, Senator Obama rightly points to the
speech he gave in 2002.  He's to be commended for having given the
speech.  Many people gave speeches against the war then. 

     And the fair comparison is he didn't have responsibility; he didn't
have to vote.  By 2004, he was saying that he basically agreed with the
way George Bush was conducting the war.  And when he came to the Senate,
he and I have voted exactly the same.  We have voted for the money to
fund the war, until relatively recently. 

     So the fair comparison is when we both had responsibility.  When it
wasn't just a speech, but it was actually action, where is the
difference?  Where is the comparison that would in some way give a real
credibility to the speech that he gave against the war? 

     And on a number of other issues, I just believe that, you know, as
Senator Obama said, yes, last summer, he basically threatened to bomb
Pakistan, which I don't think was a particularly wise position to take.


     I have long advocated a much tougher approach to Musharraf and to
Pakistan and have pushed the White House to do that.  And I disagree
with his continuing to say that he would meet with some of the worst
dictators in the world without preconditions and without the real, you
know, understanding of what we would get from it. 

     So I think you've got to look at, you know, what I have done over a
number of years, traveling on behalf of our country to more than 80
countries, meeting and working out a lot of different issues that are
important to our national security and our foreign policy and our
values, serving on the Senate Armed Services Committee for now five
years. 

     And I think that, you know, standing on that stage with Senator
McCain -- if he is, as appears to be, the nominee -- I will have a much
better case to make on a range of the issues that really America must
confront going forward and will be able to hold my own and make the case
for a change in policy that will be better for our country. 

     WILLIAMS:  Senator Obama, quick response?

     OBAMA:  Let me just follow up. 

     My objections to the war in Iraq were not simply a speech.  I was
in the midst of a U.S. Senate campaign.  It was a high-stakes campaign.
I was one of the most vocal opponents of the war, and I was very
specific as to why. 

     And so when I bring this up, it is not simply to say, "I told you
so," but to give you an insight in terms of how I would make decisions.


     And the fact was this was a big strategic blunder.  It was not a
matter of, "Well, here is the initial decision, but since then we've
voted the same way." 

     Once we had driven the bus into the ditch, there were only so many
ways we could get out.  The question is:  Who's making the decision
initially to drive the bus into the ditch? 

     And the fact is that Senator Clinton often says that she is ready
on day one, but, in fact, she was ready to give in to George Bush on day
one on this critical issue.  So the same person that she criticizes for
having terrible judgment and we can't afford to have another one of
those -- in fact, she facilitated and enabled this individual to make a
decision that has been strategically damaging to the United States of
America. 

     With respect to Pakistan, I never said I would bomb Pakistan.
What I said was that if we have actionable intelligence against bin
Laden or other key Al Qaida officials and we -- and Pakistan is
unwilling or unable to strike against them, we should. 

     And just several days ago, in fact, this administration did exactly
that and took out the third-ranking Al Qaida official.  That is the
position we should have taken in the first place.  And President
Musharraf is now indicating that he would generally be more cooperative
in some of these efforts.  We don't know how the new legislature in
Pakistan will respond.  But the fact is, it was the right strategy. 

     And so, my claim is not simply based on a speech.  It is based on
the judgments that I've displayed during the course of my service on the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee, while I've been in the United States
Senate, and as somebody who during the course of this campaign I think
has put forward a plan that will provide a clean break against Bush and
Cheney, and that is how we're going to be able to debate John McCain. 

     Having a debate with John McCain where your positions were
essentially similar until you started running for president I think does
not put you in a strong position. 

     WILLIAMS:  Tim Russert?

     RUSSERT:  Let me talk about the future -- let me talk about the
future about Iraq, because this is important I think to Democratic
voters particularly. 

     You both have pledged a withdrawal of troops from Iraq.  You both
have said you'd keep a residual force there to protect our embassy, to
seek out Al Qaida, to neutralize Iran.  If the Iraqi government said,
President Clinton or President Obama, you're pulling out your troops
this quickly?   You're going to be gone in a year?  But you're going
to leave a residual force behind?  No.  Get out!  Get out now!  If you
don't want to stay and protect us, we're a sovereign nation, go home
now.  Will you leave? 

     OBAMA:  Well, if the Iraqi government says that we should not be
there, then we cannot be there.  This is a sovereign government, as
George Bush continually reminds us. 

     Now, I think we can be in a partnership with Iraq to ensure the
stability and the safety of the region, to ensure the safety of Iraqis
and to meet our national security interests.  But in order to do that,
we have to send a clear signal to the Iraqi government that we are not
going to be there permanently, which is why I have said that as soon as
I take office, I will call in the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  We will
initiate a phased withdrawal.  We will be as careful getting out as we
were careless getting in.  We will give ample time for them to stand up
to negotiate the kinds of agreements that will arrive at the political
accommodations that are needed.  We will provide them continued support.

     But it is important for us not to be held hostage by the Iraqi
government in a policy that has not made us more safe, is distracting us
from Afghanistan, and is costing us dearly not only and most importantly
in the lost lives of our troops, but also the amount of money that we
are spending that is unsustainable and will prevent us from engaging in
the kinds of investments in America that will make us more competitive
and more safe. 

     RUSSERT:  So, Senator Clinton, if the Iraqis said, I'm sorry, we're
not happy with this arrangement, if you're not going to stay in total
and defend us, get out completely.  They're a sovereign nation.
You would listen? 

     CLINTON:  Absolutely.  And I believe there is no military solution
that the Americans, who had been valiant in doing everything that they
were asked to do, can really achieve in the absence of full cooperation
from the Iraqi government and...

     RUSSERT:  Let me ask you this, Senator, I want to ask you...

     CLINTON:  And they need to take responsibility for themselves. 

     RUSSERT:  I want to ask both of you this question, then.  If this
scenario plays out and the Americans get out in totality, and Al Qaida
resurges and Iraq goes to hell, do you hold the right in your mind as
American president to reinvade, to go back into Iraq to stabilize it?

     CLINTON:  You know, Tim, you ask a lot of hypotheticals.  And I
believe that...

     RUSSERT:  But this is reality. 

     CLINTON:  No, well, it isn't reality.  You're making lots of
different hypothetical assessments. 

     I believe that it is in America's interest and in the interest of
the Iraqis for us to have an orderly withdrawal. 

     I've been saying for many months that the administration has to do
more to plan.  And I've been pushing them to actually do it.  I've also
said that I would begin to withdraw within 60 days based on a plan that
I ask begun to be put together as soon as I became president.  And I
think we can take out one to two brigades a month. 

     I've also been a leader in trying to prevent President Bush from
getting us committed to staying in Iraq regardless, for as long as
Senator McCain and others have said it might be -- 50 to 100 years. 

     So when you talk about what we need to do in Iraq, we have to make
judgments about what is in the best interest of America. 


     CLINTON:  And I believe this is in the best interest.  But I also
have heard Senator Obama refer continually to Afghanistan, and he
references being on the Foreign Relations Committee.

     He chairs the subcommittee on Europe.  It has jurisdiction over
NATO.  NATO is critical to our mission in Afghanistan.  He's held not
one substantive hearing to do oversight, to figure out what we can do to
actually have a stronger presence with NATO in Afghanistan.

     You have to look at the entire situation to try to figure out how
we can stabilize Afghanistan and begin to put more in there to try to
get some kind of success out of it.  And you have to...

     RUSSERT:  All right.  Let me...

     CLINTON:  ... work with the Iraqi government so that they take
responsibility for their own future.

     RUSSERT:  Senator Obama, I want you to respond to not holding
oversight for your subcommittee.  But also, do you reserve a right as
American president to go back into Iraq once you have withdrawn with
sizable troops in order to quell any kind of insurrection or civil war?


     OBAMA:  Well, first of all, I became chairman of this committee at
the beginning of this campaign, at the beginning of 2007.  So, it is
true that we haven't had oversight hearings on Afghanistan.

     I have been very clear in talking to the American people about what
I would do with respect to Afghanistan.  I think we have to have more
troops there to bolster the NATO effort.  I think we have to show that
we are not maintaining permanent bases in Iraq because Secretary Gates,
our current defense secretary, indicated that we are getting resistance
from our allies to put more troops into Afghanistan because they
continue to believe that we made a blunder in Iraq.  And I think even
this administration acknowledges now that they are hampered now in doing
what we need to do in Afghanistan in part because of what's happened in
Iraq.

     Now, I always reserve the right for the president -- as commander
in chief, I will always reserve the right to make sure that we are
looking out for American interests.  And if al Qaeda is forming a base
in Iraq, then we will have to act in a way that secures the American
homeland and our interests abroad.  So that is true, I think, not just
in Iraq, but that's true in other places.  That's part of my argument
with respect to Pakistan.

     I think we should always cooperate with our allies and sovereign
nations in making sure that we are rooting out terrorist organizations.
But if they are planning attacks on Americans like what happened on
9/11, it is my job, it will be my job as president to make sure that we
are hunting them down.

     WILLIAMS:  And Senator, I need to reserve...

     CLINTON:  No, but I have -- I just have...

     WILLIAMS:  I'm sorry, Senator.

     CLINTON:  No, wait a minute.  I have to...

     WILLIAMS:  I've get to get us to a break.

     CLINTON:  The question was about invading.

     WILLIAMS:  Television doesn't stop.

     CLINTON:  Invading Iraq.

     WILLIAMS:  Can you hold that thought until we come back from a
break?  We have limited commercial interruptions tonight, and we have to
get to one of them now.  Despite the snowstorm swirling outside here in
Cleveland, we're having a warm night in the arena.

     We'll return to it right after this.


     (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

     WILLIAMS:  And because our first segment went long and we are in a
large arena...

     (APPLAUSE)

     ... we are just now welcoming back both of our candidates to the
stage and asking our cooperation of the audience.  We're back live
tonight in Cleveland, Ohio.

     Senator Obama, we started tonight talking about what could be
construed as a little hyperbole.  It happens from time to time on the
campaign trail.

     You have recently been called out on some yourself.  I urge you to
look at your monitor.  We'll take a look.

     (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

     CLINTON:  Now, I could stand up here and say let's just get
everybody together.  Let's get unified.  The sky will open.  The light
will come down.  Celestial choirs will be singing and everyone will know
we should do the right thing and the world will be perfect.

     (END VIDEO CLIP)

     OBAMA:  Sounds good.

     WILLIAMS:  Of all the charges...

     (LAUGHTER)

     ... of all the charges and counter-charges made tonight, we can
confirm that is not you, Senator Obama.  That was Senator Clinton.

     But since we played that tape, albeit in error for this segment,
how did you take that?  How did you take those remarks when you heard
them?

     OBAMA:  Well, I thought Senator Clinton showed some good humor
there.  I would give her points for delivery.

     (LAUGHTER)

     And, look, I understand the broader point that Senator Clinton's
been trying to make over the last several weeks.  She characterizes it
typically as speeches, not solutions, or talk versus action.

     And as I said in the last debate, I've spent 20 years devoted to
working on behalf of families who are having a tough time and are
seeking out the American dream. 

     That's how I started my career in public service.  That's how I
brought Democrats and Republicans together to provide health care to
people who needed it.  That's how I helped to reform a welfare system
that wasn't working in Illinois.

     That's how I've provided tax breaks to people who really needed
them as opposed to just the wealthy.  And so I'm very proud of that
track record and if Senator Clinton thinks that it's all talk, you know,
you've got to tell that to the wounded warriors at Walter Reed who had
to pay for their food and pay for their phone calls before I got to the
Senate, and I changed that law, or talk to those folks who I think have
recognized that special interests are dominating Washington and pushing
aside the agenda of ordinary families here in Ohio.


     OBAMA:  And so when I pass an ethics reform bill that makes sure
that lobbyists can't get gifts or meals or provide corporate jets to
members of Congress and they have to disclose who they're getting money
from and who they're bundling it for, that moves us in the direction of
making sure that we have a government that is more responsive to
families. 

     Just one point I'll make.  I was in Cincinnati, met with four women
at a table like this one.  And these were middle-aged women who, as one
woman put it, had done everything right and never expected to find
themselves in a situation where they don't have health care.

     One of them doesn't have a job; one of them is looking after an
aging parent; two of them were looking after disabled children; one of
them was dipping into their retirement accounts, because she had been
put on disability on the job. 

     And you hear these stories, and what you realize is nobody has been
listening to them.  That is not who George Bush or Dick Cheney has been
advocating for over the last seven years. 

     And so I am not interested in talk.  I'm not interested in
speeches.  I would not be running if I wasn't absolutely convinced that
I can put an economic agenda forward that is going to provide them with
health care, is going to make college more affordable, and is going to
get them the kinds of help that they need not to solve all of their
problems, but at least to be able to achieve the American dream. 

     WILLIAMS:  And let me ask you, Senator Clinton.  What did you mean
by that piece of videotape we saw from the campaign?

     CLINTON:  Well, I was having a little fun.  You know, it's hard to
find time to have fun on the campaign trail, but occasionally you can
sneak that in. 

     But the larger point is that I know trying to get health insurance
for every American that's affordable will not be easy.  It's not going
to come about just because we hope it will or we tell everybody it's the
right thing to do. 

     You know, 15 years ago, I tangled with the health insurance
industry and the drug companies.  And I know it takes a fighter.  It
takes somebody who will go toe-to-toe with the special interests. 

     You know, I have put forth very specific ideas about how we can get
back $55 billion from the special interests, the giveaways to the oil
companies, the credit card companies, the student loan companies, the
health insurance companies. 

     These have all been basically pushed onto these special interests
not just because of what the White House did, but because members of
Congress went along.

     And I want to get that money back and invest it in the American
middle class -- health care, college affordability, the kinds of needs
that people talk to me about throughout Ohio -- because what I hear, as
I go from Toledo to Parma, to Cleveland to Dayton, is the same litany,
that people are working harder than ever, but they're not getting ahead.
They feel like they're invisible to their government. 

     So when it came time to vote on Dick Cheney's energy bill, I voted
no, and Senator Obama voted yes.  When it came time to try to cap
interest rates for credit cards at 30 percent -- which I think is way
too high, but it was the best we could present -- I voted yes, and
Senator Obama voted no. 

     WILLIAMS:  And, Senator Clinton...

     CLINTON:  So part of what we have to do here is recognize that the
special interests are not going to give up without a fight.  And I
believe that I am a fighter, and I will fight for the people of Ohio and
the people of America. 

     WILLIAMS:  What I was attempting to do here is show something
Senator Obama said about you, and I'm told it's ready...

     (CROSSTALK)

     OBAMA:  But, Brian...

     WILLIAMS:  Let's try it.  Hang on.  Watch your monitor.

     OBAMA:  I think I'm going to have to respond to this.

     WILLIAMS:  Let's try it.  We're going to come back to you. 

     (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

     OBAMA:  ... herself as co-president during the Clinton years.
Every good thing that happened she says she was a part of.  And so the
notion that you can selectively pick what you take credit for and then
run away from what isn't politically convenient, that doesn't make
sense. 

     (END VIDEO CLIP)

     WILLIAMS:  Now, Senator Obama, you can react to whatever you wanted
to react to from earlier, but I've been wanting to ask you about this
assertion that Senator Clinton has somehow cast herself as co-president.


     OBAMA:  Well, I think what is absolutely true is that when Senator
Clinton continually talks about her experience, she's including the
eight years that she served as first lady and often says, "You know,
here's what I did, here's what we did, here's what we accomplished,"
which is fine. 

     And I have not in any way said that that experience is not
relevant, and I don't begrudge her claiming that as experience. 

     What I've said -- and what I would continue to maintain -- is you
can't take credit for all the good things that happen but then, when it
comes to issues like NAFTA, you say, "Well, behind the scenes, I was
disagreeing." 

     That doesn't work.  So you have to, I think, take both
responsibility, as well as credit. 

     Now, there are several points that I think Senator Clinton made
that we need to discuss here.