Democratic Debate Transcript: Healthcare and NAFTA

After Senator Clinton's now infamous "Shame on you, Barack Obama" statement made in Cincinnati, viewers and voters wondered which Hillary would show up at tonight's debate. Her conciliatory tone at the end of the last debate seemed to have disappeared.

As of February 25, likely Ohio voters polled 48% in favor of Clinton and 43% in favor of Obama, according to Rasmussen. This compares with 48% Clinton and 40% Obama on the 21st. Let's see if the numbers change post-debate.

The first areas discussed were health care and NAFTA. Senators Clinton and Obama don't actually differ that much - but they do have differences. Transcript follows:

    WILLIAMS:  Thanks to our candidates for being here on a snowy night
in the great city of Cleveland, Ohio.  

     A lot has been said since we last gathered in this forum, certainly
in the few days since you two last debated. 

     Senator Clinton, in your comments especially, the difference has
been striking.  And let's begin by taking a look. 

     (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

     CLINTON:  You know, no matter what happens in this contest -- and I
am honored, I am honored to be here with Barack Obama.  I am absolutely
honored and... 

     So shame on you, Barack Obama.  It is time you ran a campaign
consistent with your messages in public.  That's what I expect from you.
Meet me in Ohio.  Let's have a debate about your tactics and your
behavior in this campaign. 

     (END VIDEO CLIP)

     WILLIAMS:  Senator Clinton, we're here in Ohio.  Senator Obama is
here.  This is the debate.  You would agree the difference in tone over
just those 48 hours was striking. 

     CLINTON:  Well, this is a contested campaign.  And as I have said
many times, I have a great deal of respect for Senator Obama.  But we
have differences. 

     And in the last several days, some of those differences in tactics
and the choices that Senator Obama's campaign has made regarding flyers
and mailers and other information that has been put out about my health
care plan and my position on NAFTA have been very disturbing to me. 

     And, therefore, I think it's important that you stand up for
yourself and you point out these differences so that voters can have the
information they need to make a decision.

     You know, for example, it's been unfortunate that Senator Obama has
consistently said that I would force people to have health care whether
they could afford it or not. 

     You know, health care reform and achieving universal health care is
a passion of mine.  It is something I believe in with all my heart.


     CLINTON:  And every day that I'm campaigning -- and certainly here
throughout Ohio, I've met so many families, happened again this morning
in Lorain, who are just devastated because they don't get the health
care they deserve to have.

     And, unfortunately, it's a debate we should have that is accurate
and is based in facts about my plan and Senator Obama's plan, because my
plan will cover everyone and it will be affordable.  And on many
occasions, independent experts have concluded exactly that. 

     And Senator Obama's plan does not cover everyone.  It would leave,
give or take, 15 million people out. 

     So we should have a good debate that uses accurate information, not
false, misleading and discredited information, especially on something
as important as whether or not we will achieve quality, affordable
health care for everyone. 

     That's my goal.  That's what I'm fighting for and I'm going to
stand up for that. 

     WILLIAMS:  On the topic of accurate information and to that end,
one of the things that has happened over the past 36 hours, a photo went
out on the Website, the "Drudge Report," showing Senator Obama in the
native garb of a nation he was visiting, as you have done in a host
country on a trip overseas.

     Matt Drudge, on his Website, said it came from a source inside the
Clinton campaign.

     Can you say unequivocally here tonight it did not?

     CLINTON:  Well, so far as I know, it did not and I certainly know
nothing about it and have made clear that that's not the kind of
behavior that I condone or expect from the people working in my
campaign.

     But we have no evidence where it came from.  So I think that it's
clear what I would do if it were someone in my campaign, as I have in
the past, asking people to leave my campaign if they do things that I
disagree with.

     WILLIAMS:  Senator Obama, your response.

     OBAMA:  Well, first of all, I take Senator Clinton at her word that
she knew nothing about the photo.  So I think that's something that we
can set aside.

     I do want to focus on the issue of health care, because Senator
Clinton has suggested that the flyer that we put out, the mailing that
we put out was inaccurate.

     Now, keep in mind that I have consistently said that Senator
Clinton's got a good health care plan.  I think I have a good health
care plan.  I think mine is better.

     But I have said that 95 percent of our health care plan is similar.
I have endured, over the course of this campaign, repeated negative mail
from Senator Clinton in Iowa, in Nevada, and other places, suggesting
that I want to leave 15 million people out.

     According to Senator Clinton, that is accurate.  I dispute it and I
think it is inaccurate.  On the other hand, I don't fault Senator
Clinton for wanting to point out what she thinks is an advantage to her
plan.

     The reason she thinks that there are more people covered under her
plan than mine is because of a mandate.  That is not a mandate for the
government to provide coverage to everybody.  It is a mandate that every
individual purchase health care.

     And the mailing that we put out accurately indicates that the main
difference between Senator Clinton's plan and mine is the fact that she
would force, in some fashion, individuals to purchase health care.

     If it was not affordable, she would still presumably force them to
have it, unless there is a hardship exemption, as they've done in
Massachusetts, which leaves 20 percent of the uninsured out.  And if
that's the case, then, in fact, her claim that she covers everybody is
not accurate.

     Now, Senator Clinton has not indicated how she would enforce this
mandate.  She hasn't indicated what level of subsidy she would provide
to assure that it was, in fact, affordable.  And so it is entirely
legitimate for us to point out these differences.

     But I think it's very important to understand the context of this,
and that is that Senator Clinton has, in her campaign at least, has
constantly sent out negative attacks on us, e-mail, robo-calls, flyers,
television ads, radio calls, and we haven't whined about it because I
understand that's the nature of this campaigns.

     But to suggest somehow that our mailing is somehow different from
the kinds of approaches that Senator Clinton has taken throughout this
campaign I think is simply not accurate.

     CLINTON:  I have to...

     WILLIAMS:  And, Senator Clinton, on this subject...

     CLINTON:  I have to respond to that, because this is not just any
issue and certainly we've had a vigorous back-and-forth on both sides of
our campaign.

     But this is an issue that goes to the heart of whether or not this
country will finally do what is right, and that is to provide quality,
affordable health care to every single person.

     Senator Obama has a mandate in his plan.  It's a mandate on parents
to provide health insurance for their children.  That's about 150
million people who would be required to do that.


     CLINTON:  The difference between Senator Obama and myself is that I
know from the work I've done on health care for many years that if
everyone's not in the system, we will continue to let the insurance
companies do what's called cherry picking, pick those who get insurance
and leave others out.  We will continue to have a hidden tax so that
when someone goes to the emergency room without insurance, 15 million or
however many, that amount of money that will be used to take care of
that person will be then spread among all the rest of us.

     And most importantly, you know, the kind of attack on my health
care plan which the University of Pennsylvania and others have said is
misleading, that attack goes right to the heart of whether or not we
will be able to achieve universal health care.  That's a core Democratic
Party value.  It's something that ever since Harry Truman we have stood
for.

     And what I find regrettable is that in Senator Obama's mailing that
he has sent out across Ohio, it is almost as though the health insurance
companies and the Republicans wrote it, because in my plan there is
enough money, according to the independent experts who have evaluated
it, to provide the kind of subsidies so that everyone would be able to
afford it.  It is not the same as a single state trying to do this,
because the federal government has many more resources at its disposal.

     So I think it's imperative that we stand as Democrats for universal
health care.  I've staked out a claim for that.  Senator Edwards did.
Others have.  But Senator Obama has not.

     WILLIAMS:  Senator Obama, a quick response.

     OBAMA:  Well, look, I believe in universal health care, as does
Senator Clinton.  And this is -- this is, I think, the point of the
debate, is that Senator Clinton repeatedly claims that I don't stand for
universal health care.  And, you know, for Senator Clinton to say that I
think is simply not accurate.

     Every expert has said that anybody who wants health care under my
plan will be able to obtain it.  President Clinton's own secretary of
labor has said that my plan does more to reduce costs and, as a
consequence, makes sure that the people who need health care right now
all across Ohio, all across Texas, Rhode Island, Vermont, all across
America, will be able to obtain it.  And we do more to reduce costs than
any other plan that's been out there.

     Now, I have no objection to Senator Clinton thinking that her
approach is superior.  But the fact of the matter is, is that if, as
we've heard tonight, we still don't know how Senator Clinton intends to
enforce a mandate, and if we don't know the level of subsidies that
she's going to provide, then you can have a situation which we're seeing
right now in the state of Massachusetts, where people are being fined
for not having purchased health care but choose to accept the fine
because they still can't afford it even with the subsidies.

     And they are then worse off.  They then have no health care and are
paying a fine above and beyond that.

     WILLIAMS:  Thank you.

     OBAMA:  That is a genuine difference between myself and Senator
Clinton.

     And the last point I would make is, the insurance companies
actually are happy to have a mandate.  The insurance companies don't
mind making sure that everybody has to purchase their product.  That's
not something they're objecting to.

     The question is, are we going to make sure that it is affordable
for everybody?  And that's my goal when I'm president of the United
States.

     CLINTON:  You know, Brian...

     WILLIAMS:  Senator, as...

     CLINTON:  Brian, wait a minute.  I've got -- this is too important.

     You know, Senator Obama has a mandate.  He would enforce the
mandate by requiring parents to buy insurance for their children.

     OBAMA:  Yes.  This is true.

     CLINTON:  That is the case.  If you have a mandate, it has to be
enforceable.  So there's no difference here.  It's just that I know...

     OBAMA:  No, there is a difference.

     CLINTON:  ... that parents who get sick have terrible consequences
for their children.  So you can insure the children, and then you've got
the breadwinner who can't afford health insurance or doesn't have it for
him or herself.

     And, in fact, it would be as though Franklin Roosevelt said, let's
make Social Security voluntary.  That's, you know -- that's -- let's let
everybody get in it if they can afford it.  Or if President Johnson
said, let's make Medicare voluntary.

     OBAMA:  Well, let me...

     CLINTON:  What we have said is at the point of employment, at the
point of contact with various government agencies, we would have people
signed up.  It's like when you get a 401(k) at your employer, the
employer automatically enrolls you.

     You would be enrolled.  And under my plan, it is affordable
because, number one, we have enough money in our plan.

     A comparison of the plans like the ones we're proposing found that
actually I would cover nearly everybody at a much lower cost than
Senator Obama's plan because we would not only provide these health care
tax credits, but I would limit the amount of money that anyone ever has
to pay for a premium to a low percentage of your income.  So it will be
affordable.

     Now, if you want to say that we shouldn't try to get everyone into
health insurance, that's a big difference, because I believe if we don't
have universal health care, we will never provide prevention.


     CLINTON:  I have the most aggressive measures to reduce cost and
improve quality.  And, time and time again, people who have compared our
two approaches have concluded that.  So let's have a debate about the
facts.

     OBAMA:  Brian, I'm sorry, I'm getting -- I'm a little filibustered
a little bit here.

     WILLIAMS:  The last answer on this topic.

     OBAMA:  It is just not accurate to say that Senator Clinton does
more to control costs than mine.  That is not the case.  There are many
experts who've concluded that she does not. 

     I do provide a mandate for children because, number one, we have
created a number of programs in which we can have greater assurance that
those children will be covered at an affordable price. 

     On the point of many adults, we don't want to put in a situation in
which on the front end we are mandating them, we are forcing them to
purchase insurance, and if the subsidies are inadequate the burden is on
them and they will be penalized.  And that is what Senator Clinton's
plan does. 

     Now, I am happy to have a discussion with Senator Clinton about how
we can both achieve the goal of universal health care.  What I do not
accept, and which is what Senator Clinton has consistently done -- and,
in fact, the same experts she cites basically say there's no real
difference between our plans, that they are not substantial -- but it
has to do with how we're going to achieve universal health care. 

     That is an area where I believe that, if we make it affordable,
people will purchase it.  In fact, Medicare Part B is not mandated.
It is voluntary, and yet people over 65 choose to purchase it, Hillary.
And the reason they choose to purchase it is because it's a good deal. 

     And if people in Cleveland or anywhere in Ohio end up seeing a plan
that is affordable for them, I promise you they are snatching it up
because they are desperate to get health care.  And that's what I intend
to provide as president of the United States.

     WILLIAMS:  Senators, I'm going to change the subject. 

     CLINTON:  About 20 percent of the people who are uninsured have the
means to buy insurance.  They're often young people who think they're
immortal...

     OBAMA:  Which is why I cover them. 

     CLINTON:  ... except when the illness or the accident strikes.
And what Senator Obama has said, that then, once you get to the
hospital, you'll be forced to buy insurance, I don't think that's a good
idea.  We ought to plan for it, and we ought to make sure we cover
everyone.  That is the only way to get to universal health care
coverage. 

     OBAMA:  With respect...

     CLINTON:  That is what I've worked for, for 15 years...

     OBAMA:  With respect...

     CLINTON:  ... and I believe that we can achieve it.  But if we
don't even have a plan to get there and we start out by leaving people,
you'll never, ever control costs, improve quality, and cover everyone. 

     OBAMA:  With respect to the young people, my plan specifically says
that, up until the age of 25, you will be able to be covered under your
parents' insurance plan.  So that cohort that Senator Clinton is talking
about will, in fact, have coverage. 

     WILLIAMS:  Well, a 16-minute discussion on health care is certainly
a start. 

     (LAUGHTER)

     I'd like to change up...

     CLINTON:  Well, there's hardly anything more important.  I think it
would be good to talk about health care...

     WILLIAMS:  Well, here's another important topic, and that's NAFTA,
especially where we're sitting here tonight.  And this is a tough one,
depending on who you ask. 

     The Houston Chronicle has called it a "big win" for Texas, but Ohio
Democratic Senator Brown, your colleagues in the Senate, has called it a
"job-killing" trade agreement. 

     Senator Clinton, you've campaigned in south Texas.  You've
campaigned here in Ohio.  Who's right? 

     CLINTON:  Well, could I just point out that, in the last several
debates, I seem to get the first question all the time?  And I don't
mind.  You know, I'll be happy to field them, but I do find it curious.
And if anybody saw "Saturday Night Live," you know, maybe we should ask
Barack if he's comfortable and needs another pillow. 

     I just find it kind of curious that I keep getting the first
question on all of these issues, but I'm happy to answer it. 
     You know, I have been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning.
I didn't have a public position on it because I was part of the
administration.  But when I started running for the Senate, I have been
a critic. 

     I've said it was flawed.  I said that it worked in some parts of
our country, and I've seen the results in Texas.  I was in Laredo in the
last couple of days.  It's the largest inland port in America now.
So, clearly, some parts of our country have been benefited. 

     But what I have seen, where I represent upstate New York, I've seen
the factories close and move.  I've talked to so many people whose
children have left because they don't have a good shot. 

     I've had to negotiate to try to keep factories open -- sometimes
successfully, sometimes not -- because the companies got tax benefits to
actually move to another country. 

     So what I have said is that we need to have a plan to fix NAFTA.
I would immediately have a trade time-out.  And I would take that time
to try to fix NAFTA by making it clear that we'll have core labor and
environmental standards in the agreement. 

     We will do everything we can to make it enforceable, which it is
not now. 


     CLINTON:  We will stop the kind of constant sniping at our
protections for our workers that can come from foreign companies because
they have the authority to try to sue to overturn what we do to keep our
workers safe. 

     This is a big issue in Ohio, and I have laid out my criticism; but,
in addition, my plan for actually fixing NAFTA. 

     Again, I have received a lot of incoming criticism from Senator
Obama.  And the Cleveland Plain Dealer examined Senator Obama's attacks
on me regarding NAFTA and said they were erroneous. 

     So I would hope that, again, we could get to a debate about what
the real issues are and where we stand, because we do need to fix NAFTA.
It is not working.  It was, unfortunately, heavily disadvantaging many
of our industries, particularly manufacturing.  I have a record of
standing up for that, of chairing the Manufacturing Caucus in the
Senate, and I will take a tough position on these trade agreements. 

     WILLIAMS:  Senator, thank you. 

     Before we turn the questioning over to Tim Russert, Senator Obama.


     OBAMA:  Well, I think that it is inaccurate for Senator Clinton to
say that she's always opposed NAFTA.  In her campaign for Senate, she
said that NAFTA, on balance, had been good for New York and good for
America. 

     I disagree with that.  I think that it did not have the labor
standards and environmental standards that were required in order to not
just be good for Wall Street, but also be good for Main Street. 

     And if you travel through Youngstown and you travel through
communities in my home state of Illinois, you will see entire cities
that have been devastated as a consequence of trade agreements that were
not adequately structured to make sure that U.S. workers had a fair
deal. 

     Now, I think that Senator Clinton has shifted positions on this and
believes that we should have strong environmental standards and labor
standards.  And I think that's a good thing. 

     But when I first moved to Chicago in the early '80s and I saw steel
workers who had been laid off at their plants, black, white and
Hispanic, and I worked on the streets of Chicago to try to help them
find jobs, I saw then that the net costs of many of these trade
agreements, if they're not properly structured, can be devastating. 

     And as president of the United States, I intend to make certain
that every agreement that we sign has the labor standards, the
environmental standards and the safety standards that are going to
protect not just workers, but also consumers. 

     We can't have toys with lead paint in them that our children are
playing with.  We can't have medicines that are actually making people
more sick instead of better because they're produced overseas.  We have
to stop providing tax breaks for companies that are shipping jobs
overseas and give those tax breaks to companies that are investing here
in the United States of America. 

     And if we do those things, then I believe that we can actually get
Ohio back on the path of growth and jobs and prosperity.  If we don't,
then we're going to continue to see the kind of deterioration that we've
seen economically here in this state. 

     RUSSERT:  I want to ask you both about NAFTA, because the record I
think is clear, and I want -- Senator Clinton, Senator Obama said that
you did say in 2004, that on balance, NAFTA has been good for New York
and America.  You did say that. 

     When President Clinton signed this bill -- and this was after he
negotiated two new side agreements for labor and environment --
President Clinton said it would be a force for economic growth and
social progress.  You said in '96 it was proving its worth as free and
fair trade.  You said that in 2000, it was a good idea that took
political courage. 

     So your record is pretty clear.  Based on that -- and what you're
now expressing your discomfort with it -- in the debate that Al Gore had
with Ross Perot, Al Gore said the following: "If you don't like NAFTA
and what it's done, we can get out of it in six months.  The president
can say to Canada and Mexico, we are out.  This has not been a good
agreement."