What if you were to learn that Jesus did not come from a virgin birth—that Mary conceived him just as most of us were conceived?Would that have any affect on your faith? Would it change the way you feel about Jesus?
Although you will probably never hear this at your church on Sunday, there are many theologians that believe that, more than likely, there was no virgin birth. Let me share with you why this is so.
When we look at the New Testament, there is no mention in the writings of Paul about the virgin birth, and these writings actually preceded the four gospels by 10-20 years and originated about 50-60 A.D. In Galatians, Paul’s writings support the idea that Jesus was a normal Jewish boy called by God.
The first book of the four gospels to be written after the death of Jesus was Mark, written about 70 A.D. The writer makes no mention of the virgin birth. One would think that such a miraculous occurrence would surely be recorded.
There are only two references among the four gospels about a virgin birth. The first one is in Matthew. This book was written around 80 years after the death of Jesus. With that in mind, it is doubtful that Matthew was even written by the disciple himself. As we begin reading the book of Matthew, we are presented with a very long genealogy of Jesus from King David to Joseph, the husband of Mary. This was given to substantiate that Jesus was the Hebrew messiah, born to reign on the throne of David.
However, one has to ask: Why then did the writer of Matthew feel the need to mention genealogy when he then goes on to say that Mary was a virgin and came about through no assistance from Joseph?
Matthew 1:22-23 “And this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet (Isaiah): ‘The virgin is with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel-which means 'God is with us'". Jesus, of course, was not named Immanuel.
Theologians say that the original Hebrew word used in the above passage was actually “almah” which meant a young woman—or maiden. It had to do with age rather than virginity. Other theologians believe that this passage about Mary being a virgin might have been added later on, and was not in the early text. This makes sense for the reason that it was inconsistent with the genealogy that preceded it and which was of great import in establishing Jesus’ lineage to fulfill the messianic prophecy.
The other gospel that mentions a virgin birth is Luke. The gospel of Luke showed up about 90 A.D. The disciple Luke was Greek and, although he may have not been the writer, the book itself reflects influenced by Greek mythology. There was heavy pagan influence at this time in the early history of Christianity. In Greek mythology, Perseus was born of the virgin Danae, . Danae was conceived of the god Zeus who took the form of a shower of gold. In another Greek myth, Dionysius was born of the virgin Semele, impregnated by Zeus with a lightning bolt.
Horus, a major god of the Egyptian mystery religion was born of the virgin Isis. Like Jesus, in the book of Luke, Horus was born in a stable. In Phoenician mythology, Adonis was born of the virgin Myrrh. So we can see that there might have been great influence on the early Christian writers to
The Nazarenes, who were most likely the followers of Peter and James, the brother of Jesus never accepted the story of the virgin birth. We know this because of the early church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Jerome, Ireneaus, and Origen.
Lastly, Jesus himself does not speak of his virgin birth.
Because of the few instances in which the virgin birth is mentioned, many theologians believe that it may be something that was added to appeal to the gentiles that the early Christians were trying to convert at the time. The mythological elements may have been brought in to convince followers of the mystery religions of the divinity of Jesus.
According to prophecy, however, if Jesus had been born of a virgin then it would jeopardize the necessary ingredient in being the messiah, which was to be a descendent of King David.
The earliest Christians believed in a spiritual body and a physical body. Paul wrote of this. They believed that the spiritual body came directly from God and was infused into the flesh or physical body. So even if Jesus had a traditional conception and birth, the soul or spirit of Jesus was still born of God.
So, does it matter to you that Jesus may not have been born of a virgin?
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"Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
~St. Matthew 1:22-23~
The Messianic prophecy made by the prophet Isaiah said that the Christ or Messiah would be born of a virgin:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
~Isaiah 7:14~
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
...an angel of the Lord appeared to him (Joseph) in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,because he will save his people from their sins."
~St. Matthew 1:18, 20~
And,
"In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.
But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.
You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
~Luke 1:26-25~
So, yes, had he not been born of a virgin he would not be the promised Messiah. He would not be Jesus CHRIST...he'd be Jesus ben Joseph.
People love to twist whatever the Bible says...
Exramarital sex is called fornication in the Bible and is condemned in no uncertain terms:
"Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other. Adultery is one type of fornication.
In every form, fornication was sternly condemned by the Mosaic law among God's people, the Israelites (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20-11, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16).
Fornication is also mentioned many times in the New Testament (Matt. 5:32; 19:9; John 8:41; Acts 15:20, 29; 21:25; Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor 5:1, 6:13, 18, 7:2; 10:8; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3; Jude 1:7; Rev. 2:14, 20-21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2,4).
"The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage."
from "The WebBible Encyclopedia"
That the Bible condemns fornication or extramarital sex is a given...
"if you read your Bible correctly"
I think I answered the question,
"Was the "Virgin Mary" really a virgin; and if not, does it really matter?"
Answering both in the affirmative.
Jesus was the Messiah...he was born of a virgin...in accordance with Old Testament Messianic prophecy:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
~Isaiah 7:14~
As to 'there are many theologians'...I disagree with their' theory. Since Christ was not just another 'spirit' or 'soul', but rather...God incarnate.
"For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
~Colossians 2:9~
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
~John 1:1-4, 14~
"For unto us A CHILD IS BORN, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."
~Isaiah 9:6~
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."
~1 Timothy 3:16~
God never stopped speaking to humans back in the old days ... to the degree that there have been countless "messages" of all types since then, right up to the present, and more will be coming in the future ... the problem being the massive multitude of present "believers" who have "limited" themselves to the degree that the rest of us cannot find common ground with them ... the reasons for Wars and Rumors of ...
It seems that the "leaders" of most religions have resorted to claiming many miraculous "occurrences" related to their gods and God in order to entice the followers they need in order to justify and support their institutions ... truth seems to NOT have been good enough ...
I don't think we need a virgin birth in order to receive a miracle. There have been many other children of destiny and in different fields. I believe Einstein was also a child of destiny,,, and Buddha, and Martin Luther King. Oh yeah the children of destiny are still among us.
Numerous gods (little g) and prophets have been claimed to originate in a virgin birth. Jesus is one of a fairly long list. It doesn't matter, since I have come to see Christianity as a tool used by the elite to stay in power. My relationship with God (big G) functions fine without any of the dogma, or Jesus, for that matter.
(waiting to get blasted here)
Incidentally, see my photo essay about the Virgin of Guadalupe on the day before her feast.
And Nippy's right; he can start any old religion he wants to - in fact Christ prophesized that many would. However, Nippy, I will pray for your salvation to occur before your demise. That's what my God teaches me to do.
There are plenty of miraculous occurences on this planet - It's well to remember that many, many things are just not what they appear to be.
Old Testament prophecy said to expect the virgin birth and the New Testament verifies it. That each book doesn't mention it is of no consequence. When each one of us witnesses an event or even researches a past one, we write about it differently. Even with God's inspiration, we can write things differently.
That some theologians believe that there was no virgin birth is certainly of no importance. First, you didn't say they were Christians. :-) Secondly, the Bible warns us about false teachers and teachings to come. Third, it used to be that church leaders liked that most Christians could not read the Bible. When that changed, when the Bible was more widely available - and now in many translations and languages - each one of us has been able to read the Bible, to pray about what we've read, to ask the Holy Spirit to help us understand the words we're reading. We don't need theologians to think for us. We can do that for ourselves, and we must.
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being."
~Acts 17:28~
"Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
~I Corinthians 2:9-14~
Marilyn, you mention the warnings of false teachers and prophets to come ... very true, but it does not say that all would be so, just some. How would you know that the ones of "concern" have not already been here long ago and already corrupted the very words that you and others now swear by ?
I have some few words that came from God myself, there is nothing at all "false" about them, yet many Christians dare not read nor listen lest they be fooled by the devil (in "their" minds) ... that is really a bit sad that more are not open to the truth. IMnsHO.
As far as the divinity of Jesus is concerned, the following won't be believed by my fellow Christians, even by some in this group, but here are the exact words of Jesus on the subject: (This was given to me several years ago.)
" A great deal of mystery surrounds my birth. My birth was always a mystery
to me until a certain period in my life. Things were held back from me by
my soul. The soul will not reveal anything unto you until you are ready.
I was not born into this life in the manner that has been told. I realize
that many people will cling to their perception of my birth so much that
they will not want to let go of this illusion. But nevertheless, there
must come a time when the truth must be told. The crutch must be taken
away. The people must stand on their own two feet. For too long I have
been worshipped as a God, whereas I am the same as you worshippers,
conceived exactly as they.
I do not wish to be worshipped. I wish only for the people to worship the
principles; the teaching that was brought to them through my
instrumentality, and the instrumentality of others who came before me and
after me. For too long these teachings have been ignored. Why? Because it takes a
great deal of personal sacrifice to follow the teaching of giving up
habits of thought and activity which are held dear. It is much easier to
assume that the Blood of the Lamb was shed for all one's sins and as long
as one believes this, one shall be saved and have eternal life."
The following are my words: All will have eternal life regardless of one's faith or even lack of faith. However the quality of that life (both here and hereafter and in other lives to come) is entirely up to us. As we reap, so shall we sow. Our thoughts and actions are the determining factor. Incidentally, Jesus did not say "I go before you to prepare a place for you." His exact words were. "The 'I' within you goes before you to prepare a place for you." In other words, the state of your heart and soul takes you to your own particular level of consciousness. In the hereafter are many levels of consciousness, and within those levels are many divisions - each made up by the collective minds of the inhabitants. Those on the lower levels will eventually arise when they take the intitiative to do so. The higher levels will take your breath away. There is nothing on earth that can compare to the beauty. There really are heavenly (and hellish) levels. But don't worry, most of us will be pleasantly surprised. and will be met by our friends and loved ones who have preceded us. It will be a very happy reunion.
I'm afraid the established church wouldn't care for some of what I have written above. They prefer to think the only road to heaven is through their organization. There are certain universal spiritual laws, and all the biblical quotes in the world that they care to make will not change those laws. There is a God, yes. But no one in this world will see God when they die. No matter what they believe. And the only judgement day will be our own self judgement as we reflect on our lives and on our day to day behaviour towards our fellow human beings. Some are only full of smiles and kind to one another in church on Sundays, but the rest of the week all bets are off as they revert to their true selves in the way they drive and how they treat their family members, co-workers and so on. We can't hide our true selves from God. All is recorded.
do. Go with what "feels right, for you" depending on what stage of knowing you are at. We need to embrace all, keep an open mind, and keep an open heart.
Would it matter if Jesus was not of a Virgin birth? No, not to me. That does not take away from the legacy of love that was left. It is a shame that His words were twisted and used to suit others according to the politics of that time period. I think we as a people are becoming more spiritual, not same as religious dogma, thinking and questioning more which helps us grow.
Nowadays we use the term to denote female humans whose hymens are intact/unbroken by sexual penetration.
Did you ever read about "vestal virgins?" There were a number of temple sexual initiations of virgins during ancient times, having mostly to do with rites of the various goddess religions. A young girl would be required to be a "temple prostitute,"offering herself anonymously as she waited in the temple court - giving her first sexual encounter to whatever passing male threw a piece of silver in her lap. It was believed that each stranger in that situation was embodied by God or a god - so that the girl being sexually initiated was being penetrated by the Divine - and possibly impregnated with a Sacred Child.
In ancient times and in some current cultural traditions, it is believed that the different age categories of humans carry special blessings and powers. Virgins are said to carry the blessing power of Initiation - so they are called-on to bless the seeds in spring.
Gosh - So many ways to look at virginity!
A general guideline for discerning whether you're swallowing dogma or discovering Truth is that dogmatists always use some kind of fear, threatening the well-being of one's soul, while Truth-tellers always assist soul growth in the ways of Liberation and Compassion.
God "could" be considered our Creator, and any other thing considered is also possible and even right "at the time" for those that believe such. But nothing stays the same, not even God, because all things are all about change and all are of God. We are gods incarnate withIN God ... some of us are much more Godly than others according to our beliefs about all considered and our "relationship" to it ALL.
Those that would INSIST upon a handed down written by man, INspired or not, story with the swearing of oaths to such concepts of their preferred god/God will experience just what they believe to be true ... as will each of all the rest of us.
As one believes, so it is and will be, because we are all made in the image of our creator God in that we too have the ability to create our own personal realities based upon our beliefs ... and co-create our joint reality in conjunction of like thinkers.
So, based upon that, and eternity being a very long time, I am very content to think that my future reality will be more in accordance with my own thinking ... which would make me more than happy to not have to associate with those that have such restricted (fossilized) unchanging insistence that their way is the one and only way to God ... I hope (and expect I may) I will be allowed to check in on them to see how they "really" like "that" heaven that consists of only those that think just like they themselves do ... will they really enjoy it as much as they now claim ? Can they really get along with each other NOT having the rest of us to look down upon and blame for all of the evils on earth ???
I think that all should think about the type of people and their real thinking that they may be committing themselves to an eternity with ...
In the case of having faith in the Word of God, one must remember the KISS method [keep it simple stupid]. Keep your interpretation of the Word simple and quit tearing it apart to find some "hidden code or hidden message". The Word is written in such a way to encourage and strengthen the faith of the believer. It is not necessary for us to ALL be theologians. So "Keep It Simple Stupid" works for me. I have never been one to write articles and books that are so theological that the common person can't read it and totally inderstand the message and content. I don't want people sitting there trying to figure out what I meant. What I meant is clear and easy to understand. And that is how I feel about the Word. I believe it was meant to be read and understood by the most common person.
I just wish people would stop trying to be scholarly, when all that is needed is a person with a child like faith.
Pastor Paul
Pastor Paul, from your response, it's clear that you're not a theologian. And having looked at your profile, I am not surprised at your beliefs. Your undergraduate degree was from Azuza Pacific and their religious studies school is not a divinity school but rather a conservative Christian program that looks at the Bible as God's Word. In other words, you were not taught to question or research or investigate. You were indoctrinated into the world of literal translation. In other words, yes, the idea is to be like a child and to accept everything without question.
Paul, it is not so simple or black and white. And if we took everything literally, we'd be cutting off a limb every time we sinned.
The KISS principle could also have more than one meaning ... one Literal and One Spiritual.
To keep it all simple I will give two instances of each: A child could (would) be born sinless (no matter what religions say) and pure, very simple and honest, the natural thing, just a child with potential.
Given some time though, the adults in the child's life tend to "teach" the child the "ways of the world" ... then no longer simple, sinless and pure, ... they may come across "religion" which tells them the latter, whether it applies or not, then teaches them the "simple" dogma of the the faith as well as the creed ... if fundamentalist, it will also be "simple" (literal). Then the child will grow into an adult, like some pastors, and "preach" what they "think" they know best ... a case of the Simple Blind leading the simple blind ... IMnsHO.
But in an "ideal" world, the child will be born with all of the "good" (natural) qualities and NOT be indoctrinated and polluted with falsehoods and misconceptions, just receiving Love and Truth all of it's life ... with that, the child will also be simple as well as pure, being in touch with Spirit via it's own INtuition and never succumbing to sin.
In the intermediary world choices, the child may grow up as the first example and be so much less than the latter, but with a bit of "common sense," see the error of it's ways regarding the reliance on the religion and go onto seeking a higher truth ... at which point when successful, become naturally and truly Spiritual, knowing God on a personal level transcendent to the former religious "claims" ... then they will "again" become "as a child" knowing that the Truth that sets them Free is just another KISS away from the former ... (+=-)>(+/-). IMnsHO.
In the best of it all, the "virgin Birth" will never be an issue.
Wisdom is different than knowledge, however. Wisdom comes not only from what we learn in the outer world, but from our inner intuitive and spiritual nature. There are some that are very learned that do not have this wisdom and there are those that are just the opposite. But both have their place and it is good when people have both.