I would like to put forward a conversation regarding gay marriage. It's about rights as I see it. There's lots of discussion - more yelling at one another, really, without anyone truly listening - about how we want our rights and here's why, or how we shouldn't have these rights and here's why. There is a lot of passion on both sides!
What I don't hear are arguments for or against gay marriage based on the Constitution. Now, let me start by saying that IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer), so do your own research and learn what you can for yourself.
I'm going to begin with a quote from the Declaration of Independence which says (in part,) "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Rights in this nation didn't start out fully formed. They took years - decades, even - to become recognized. When the Constitution was written, "all men" meant all white men. Women and most blacks were property. Indians were only 4/7 of a man.
Blacks were freed by Lincoln and even then not recognized as part of "all men" until around 1868 (14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution.) It wasn't until 1920 that women were recognized as part of "all men" and allowed to vote (19th amendment.)
What changed in these intervening years? Did Black people suddenly become worthy of being part of Humanity? Did women suddenly sprout a brain and backbone that allowed them to join mankind? No, of course not. Our sensibilities have altered; we've grown and stretched to realize that a right for one is a right for all. Otherwise it's not a right at all.
Some may argue that gay marriage - indeed, gay rights of any kind - are a violation of God's law, and because of this we shouldn't be granted these rights. I counter to say thank goodness that our government isn't based on religious law! As a matter of fact, several of the rights that *are* enumerated in the Constitution specifically run counter to religious laws.
For instance, the First Amendment guarantees us freedom of religion. We can follow whatever religion we want to in this country! Even those of us who follow *no* religion have that as a right.
This country is a constitutional republic in which the majority rules, *however* the rights of the minority are protected by law. Since this is true, I have to ask the following questions:
When are we going to follow the constitution (and not religion) and permit gay marriage? No, separate but equal won't do. It didn't do for blacks, and it won't do for us today. I, for one, am sick and tired of politicians throwing my rights under the bus.
When are we going to start recognizing the rights of LGBT (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender) folk in this country? Notice I didn't say granting us rights; I said *recognizing* our rights! A right for one is a right for all, or else it isn't a right at all.
Copyright 2007 by Rebecca L. Putman
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Comments: 126 ( 2 removed by Rebecca P. )
Now there is the question on whether it is fair not to allow two people of the same sex to enter into a civil marriage. That is a completely different question from that of being a right. Just as a driving license is not a right but no one in their right mind would suggest that we prevent anyone with blonde hair from getting a driver's license. (Or in my case brunettes who used to have dashing red hair when they were children.)
Marriage began as a societal institution, and then became a religious institution, and finally a civil institution. Today we throw so much baggage on the institution that the real meaning of the institution is lost. For this reason I tend to think that this is indeed a proper fairness issue, and that it is only fair to allow them the privileges attached to a civil marriage. But marriage is still not a "right."
1,049 federal benefits denied to LGBT couples simply because we can't marry. That's 1,049 water fountains we cannot use.
Then let's move on to the studies that have been conducted in the last several years that show that LGBT familes are *at least* as strong as straight ones, and raise children as well or even better. That Massachusetts' economy is even better today than it was when it allowed gay marriage, because our marriages there have pumped money into the state and local coffers!
Still, it all comes back to our rights. Not rights we're asking for or demanding. Not special rights. Just the plain, ordinary rights we already have that are being denied to us.
This is distinct from the notion that two people who might be either homosexual or heterosexual and who want to have such a commitment be denied such a civil license because of what is in effect religious objections. I know personally a number of gay couples and I hold them in the highest esteem. I think it is a matter of fairness and equality that they be allowed to, if they so desire, to enter into civil marriage. My only point is that I would disagree that marriage is a right.
Do two gays get extra benefits by marriage? No it would afford them the same rights as other married people.
If you take religion out of the picture no one can come up with a reason why gays and lesbians cant marry other than their personal prejudices.
I'm always fascinated by the judmentalism of these folks and their rationalizations. Jesus wouldn't recognize them as any different as the money changers He threw out of the Temple.
Have a nice evening, my friend.
It doesn't say "The pursuit of happiness except ......................
Why don't you so called "christians'' mind your own business and stay the hell out of other peoples lives .
Secondly, I was *asked* by staff to write this article and post it in this group. If you can't handle the truth, why don't you go back to your good christian groups and swig the kool-aid?
We LGBT folk are good, ordinary people who work, pay taxes, and have homes. We have hopes and fears, dreams and nightmares. In short, we're *just* like you, with this one little exception of being attracted to people of the same gender as ourselves.
So please: get over your hatred of us. Get over your fears. Treat us like YOU want to be treated - like your Jesus commanded you.
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: http://www.everystudent.com/features/faith.html
I used to believe, but I grew up. Just like I used to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny - I've grown up and realized the utter fiction of all these characters.
Very good article here, Rebecca. I agree wholeheartedly. Until LGBTs are treated equally under the law, the Constitution is being violated.
The Bible tells us that Adam and Eve were naked and lived in a garden.
God had to create Adam and Steve in order to have fashions and home decoration.
I don't know much about common law marriage but wouldn't that apply in situations such as yours?
My sister never officially married her husband but by now they are common law married in the state of MS.
Could you provide a reference for that absurd statement, Ty Phoon.
Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium, Canada are dealing with persons seeking to legalize incest or paedophilia?
This is another bogus claim made in support of your hostility to civil rights.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/938xpsxy.asp
http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=1&story_id=30373
http://www.verumserum.com/?p=349
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45191
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles
/000/000/002/938xpsxy.asp
Thank you Ty for posting.
Of course you don't believe in good or evil spirits, cause you're in denial..It's really sad how many people don't believe in our Father, who breathed the air that you breathe in your nostrils and therefore believe it's not a sin to be gay.
I can't open the Weekly Standard article, probably requires you to go through the site's log-in.
But the other three articles are consistent with your illogical rant.
Because one thing has occurred (right to gay marriage) everything that happens after this must be a consequence of this.
This is, as you might know, a logical fallacy.
Of course, not one of your linked articles could show ANY relationship between Gay Marriage and the other things that you fear.
All you have demonstrated is that rightist fear-mongers harp on the same themes. Not one could shopw any relationship bewteen Gay marriage rights and other efforts to re-define marriage.
The pornography case and the age of consent law brouhaha were entirely independent of the gay marriage controversy.
a little bit of research would have shown you that the Netherlands has had vocal supporters (as do many other nations) of lowered age of consent laws long before gay marriage became an issue.
One would like to see facts, not torturous reasoning.
C'mon. No, really.
My God loves and tolerates all people .
Our rights have always been just pushed under the bus. Hopefully, one day they will be reconized..
They hear us, we're loud, they have to listen! They have to realize that we are human too, and we have the right to love who ever we want. If it were them who were gay, then maybe they would know how it is to have no rights with/for their partner. It is shame that there are other countries that grant full rights, and yet we are so far behind because of ignorance.
My partner and I are getting married here in New York October 3rd, its not 'Legal" and we don't care. People always ask us 'why?" We are doing it for US, for our family, to show people our love for eachother.... Like anyother marriage.
I'm sure that we all understand the we wouldnt be here if it werent for our parents, we all know how children are made, however, we do have the right to choose other paths for our life. We as humans, dont HAVE to follow the 'norm'..whatever the 'norm' is.
I think that people who don't agree with gay marriage and gay people in general are just mad and jelious. Studies show that gay relationships last longer, and are stronger than most straight relationships.. *they* say that we ruin the meaning of marriage... husbands beating up their wives, cheating on them, and raping their children dont have anything to do with that right?
It is not all about religion, its about life, love, and happiness. WE have the right to be happy, and have all of our rights reconized as straight married couples!!
*the end* :)
I can see why it's a good thing to have a law against murder, theft, or assault. I'm just not sure I see what's wrong with two people of the same sex getting married.
She never stops, she'll go on and on and on, and then claim that its her husband, not really her saying all of it.
That article was on the top 10 discused list because of her, she just kept posting bible verse after bible verse. Shes a nut job -- Enjoy all the points that you'll get from her!!
Heather you're putting words in my mouth..I didn't say God don't love you because he does. I just said you won't enter the kingdom of heaven living your lifestyle.
Aren't men who are gay stand a great chance of getting AIDS? That's nothing I would want to have to worry about.
One more thing while I go on and on..seems kind of funny that all of you people stick together. How do you easily find these kind of articles? By using lesbian for a keyword?
Here's some more points Rebecca..
Now, back to this "god" thing of yours. Prove the existence of this creature, or give it up. Because I have looked and searched, and I can't find a god anywhere. It's very much like Santa and the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny - they're figments of your imagination. They aren't real. Wake up and smell the coffee.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
I know deep down in your heart you believe in God, you're just trying to convince yourself not to..Thanks for revealing that to me.
There still is time for you to repent of your ways before you're thrown into the firey pit.
Oh never mind, you are too busy clutching your bible in your hands.
Oh yeah, STOP sending me connection requests. I am not interested in connecting to a homophobe.
Now quit throwing this thread off-topic and let's get back to how LGBT rights are being thrown under the bus and ignored and how it is unconstitutional to do so.
Besides, I don't think religion should be mixed with politics.
By the way, it's YOUR hell, YOU burn in it.
I'll leave you alone and think now..
Debra, I question the hateful, spiteful God you choose to follow. The God I always learned about is forgiving, and loves all. I suppose you might want to think about how he looks upon you and your intolerance of fellow humans.
1) Get back on-topic, please.
2) Quit pushing your religion. I *HATE* you fundie xians who do nothing but push, push, push their religious agenda without ONCE considering the religious freedom we have in this country to believe what we want, or even NOT to believe. Shut it.
3) He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU go to hell.
You say, "The reason I keep bringing up God is because he holds the key to your future...", but you sound as if you have a real problem with gay and lesbian people, and you are using "God" language to communicate your fear and anxiety.
It is obvious that you are not spreading the Gospel, but are whacking people over the head with threats and condemnations.
Saying, "But God says this" does not make it right to do.
You might want to spend more time actually considering the example of Jesus - He was much better at communicating than you are doing.
You are not being fair to Him.
Jesus had quite a bit to say about passing laws in order to make people behave.
Once again, His conclusions sound quite different than yours.
Not all Christians will make it into heaven either. The ones that have back slidden (warm) will get spewd out of His mouth.
Oh, let me answer that for you: NOTHING. Because this country isn't based on religion. The first amendment to the Constitution states very clearly that, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." This means that the government can NOT use religion as a basis for its laws. Now, laws are created and things are done by congress in clear VIOLATION of the Constitution, but it doesn't make it right and it does make it our responsibility to correct it.
B) No wrong to be convicted of,
C) I'd rather talk ABOUT THE TOPIC than your stupid religion. If I have a choice between not getting any points and talking about your imaginary friend, I'll take the no points.
Rebecca, I am sorry to see that the thread was steered away from a very very good topic.
Shiela - thanks. Let's go back to the real discussion, shall we?
Last year, I had the privilege of attending the civil partnership ceremony of two good male friends, and it was a lovely day. Here were two men who had been in a monogomous relationship for about 7 years, who paid their taxes, contributed to society. Why on earth should they not have the same rights as anyone else?
I totally agree with you on the rights issue. There were many years that states did not grant many rights to women or blacks or even the disabled. Marriage is a civil institution, recognized by the state. There are many people who do not believe in god, yet are married. It may be viewed by some as a religious institution, but it is viewed by ALL as a civil institution, and in that light, should be open to all. As long as the government recognizes it as a legal state, one that grants certain privaleges to those who are within this legal state, it is not fair, right or equitable that ALL people may marry others whom they wish, same or different sex.
Oh, I can't wait until the folks start with the incest and beastiality comments, now! LIke the logic of two gay human beings marrying instantly means that a person can legally marry a dog. That's the level of discussion these people like to have.
"Kind, considerate, generous, thoughtful and somewhat quiet. I put others needs first. I believe in treating others as I would want to be treated. I enjoy being there for my kids. I love being around babies and kids."
How can someone who considers themselves to be the above spew such hatred toward their fellow human beings? It never ceases to amaze me, or piss me off. Such ignorance...such hatred. And they don't even realize it under the cover of their religion!