Are you one of the Chosen? A religious question

lol

Who knows, Dani? I was raised Baptist, and for the last 8-10 years attended a Pentecostal church, and I've always been led to believe that if you accept Christ as your savior and lead a Christ-like life, you're going through the pearly gates.

I've always been told that Hell was not built for humans and God doesn't really want us to go there for any reason, but it's our choice not to follow Him. But now this guy wants me to believe that no matter what I do, if God didn't specifically pick me out, I'm doomed anyway?

If that is truy why would I or anyone else want to follow a God that obviously doesn't give a care about the rest of us? And how do you KNOW you are chosen? Does he leave a burning bush on your lawn?

Ummmmmm, I didn't even make it through the entire article. (Sorry, I will, I promise.)

All I need to say: I was raised as a Presby....

This douche co-worker of yours is full of bologna! We don't have a certain number of people that will get into Heaven. We are ACTUALLY very accepting of everyone (at least from what I've seen and been a part of). We went to a weekend Bible retreat once and because our Presby group was the most liberal thinking group there, we were called heretics.

The Jehoviah's Witnesses believe in a predestined number of people getting into Heaven. The Presbys do not.

As for women's roles:

We have more women ministers than you would believe! We even have lesbian ministers. So... This guy is off his rocker.

Women are believed to be equal and have the same rights as men in Presbyterian churches....

The only thing I don't like about Presbys is that everything is decided by committee. We have a Pastor Nominating Committee, a Youth Committee, a committee for EVERYTHING. We are a totally democratic denomination - we VOTED on our pastor! Every parishoner got to vote Yay or Nay for the pastor.

I was raised up in the Presbyterian church and they are rather 'cliquey" but never was told that one!

when I was old enough to choose I chose not to go to a church that discriminates against any group of people saying they sin in Gods eye.

Also a church that becomes a fashion show and who's who in society

Well, maybe he doesn't know he's a J W? lol.

I just know he attends a Presbyterian church. I looked his church up on the internet to see if their site said anything like the stuff he was saying. I couldn't find anything to make me run from his church except that it was a BIG church and I'm a little country girl who likes little country churches. Other than that, nothing.

Jules, thanks for your input. Since he's a coworker I have to behave, but sheesh.

Lainie, we had a conversation about female ministers, too.

See, my take on it is this? The FIRST person, according to the Bible, that Jesus told to "go and tell" when he rose from the tomb was a WOMAN. So why wouldn't women be ministers?

he is VERY against female ministers. He is VERY against women having any role in the church because in Corinthians (i think that's what he said?) it says women should be silent in church?

I didn't really choose to switch. I was invited to a local church that happened to be Pentecostal. I loved the church and the people there, and once I got involved, it was just really hard to go back to a Baptist church.

As for hell, I do believe. For reasons I won't go into here, I HAVE to believe there is a hell because if I believed that certain people who have crossed my path were not going to hell for what they've done... that's another discussion for another time.

Oh, and you ARE awesome!

Interesting about all the committees. Our church votes on everything, and we have a couple of committes, but most of ours are only for "special projects". And our entire church membership voted on our minister.

Paradise on earth. Interesting.

This guy made me want to go throw my Bible down a well so no one would know we actually might believe in the same God. Geez. I know that sounds silly, but that's how bad he got to me and I usually don't let that happen.

If you just step back and look at religion from the outside for once you will realize its a crock if poo. Sorry, but it is.

I mean.. look at this discussion.. look at what your asking and look at how you are reacting to this topic, its kinda mental if you ask me.

The drawback about the committees is that it takes FOREVER to get anything done. It takes our church an average of 1.5 years to hire a new pastor. It's a long, tedious process.

I do like that we all get a voice. (Well, when I went I had a voice, at least.)

When we moved to the community we are in now, and I started searching for a church to attend, I went to every church in the neighborhood.

It was interesting to observe that in most of the Baptist churches, a few people would come greet you, but not many. The preachers only greeted me AFTER service at the door as I was leaving. At one church, only ONE person spoke to me and he was a visiting evangelist.

But at both of the Pentecostal churches, EVERY person, and I do mean EVERY person right down to the youngest kid that could walk and talk, came by and said hello before church ever started, including the pastor. At the one church where I am a member, the pastor even made a note to invite me to fellowship with them afterward, as they were having some sort of monthly get-together after church. I had never felt so welcome in a church before.

That's why I stayed.

True American, I respect your right to feel as you do. I hate that you feel that way, but it is your right.

Pax.

Wow. That's a long time to search for a new pastor! What do you do for a pastor while you are searching?

True, it does make you feel sort of protected.. and feel as if you're not alone, so to speak, when the crap hits the fan and you need a place to run?

Calvin had this thing about predestination. Can't remember if Knox was pro or con but he did study with Calvin. Wikipedia article on Knox.

I was raised as a Jew. Jews, in general, don't have much to say about an afterlife. The chosen people thing was about the Jews being chosen by God to have a special relationship with him. I don't think the relationship went beyond close friendship. One of the cool things about Judaism is there has never been a hierarchy. There are rabbis who have congregations. There's no official doctrine. Judaism has a long standing tradition of arguing about the Bible and previous commentaries. There's no such thing as dogma or heresy in Judaism. Well, some sects are just as bad as Christian or Muslim fundamentalists, but among the three main groups it's true.

Nippy, thank you for the information and your input.

OK.. so Jews don't say much about an afterlife, but do they believe in an afterlife at all?

Dani, that's true in a very basic sense.

Jews can believe in an afterlife if they want to. Heaven and hell aren't big topics in Judaism. The religion concentrates on the period between birth and death. Salvation just doesn't come up.

The Torah is actually the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. The Jewish bible was put together in its final form in the 5th century BC.

It takes a 1.5 years (on average, the last one took 2.5 years) to find a pastor because the PNC (Pastor Nominating Committee) finds a bunch of candidates and then they do countless interviews and review sample sermons. This takes MONTHS. Then they bring the lead candidate in for a sample Sunday. If that goes well, they bring the pastor back again. I think it's like the third time the pastor is invited back, they decide whether to vote or not. Then they have a church-wide vote after his/her sermon. It's hard for an entire committee to find ONE person that they all believe will serve the church community in the best way possible. (After all, the PNC is made up of people from all different aspects of life - old, young, black, white, involved, not involved, etc.)

While we are searching, we have an Interim Pastor. This pastor takes over all Pastoral duties during the search. It's really not a bad gig because you are guaranteed employment for at least a year (it seems) and you get to preach and do all that kind of stuff that most pastors like. When the PNC and Church have decided on the new pastor, the Interim rides off into the sunset.

Yikes. We do things slightly different. We do have a small committee that goes and listens to ministers at other churches when they apply, and if that group likes them, they get invited to our church, and we pretty much vote on the first visit as to whether they get to come back a second time. If they come back a second time, it's either a yes, offer the job or no, you've lost your mind sort of thing.

http://www.gather.com/viewImage.jsp?fileId=3096224744430009

And we tend to set a time limit of 6 months or less. Thankfully, we've only had to do this once since I started going there.

Interesting. Thanks, Nippy, for giving me more to ponder. lol

LOL. thanks for the link. I might have missed that.

It was ACTUALLY the banner ad on the side of an article that I clicked on. : ) I saw CHOSEN in the title and read the full title. Immediately thought of you and had to check it out.

I have heard that women are suppose to be silent in church as well. Not be ministers or anything. But I haven't read it in the bible anywhere. Have you? If not, than don't worry about it.

Remember one thing about people like him, whose to say he is a real Christin and not of the devil. You do realize people of the devil do go into God's churches become a member to deter the people who go their not to go anymore. And to deter people from going in the first place.

Actually, Sandy, I know there is a scripture somewhere in the Bible that says something like that, but everything in the Bible can be translated to mean what the reader wants it to if they twist it enough.

And you're absolutely correct. As our pastor says, "Even Satan believes in God and Christ"

Actually, Dani...it's kind of interesting. I grazed over the first chapter he had posted and its about different genetic makeups and their predisposition or immunity to certain diseases and such.

Dani, I only post porn on YOUR articles - where I know it's truly appreciated.

Nope, Dani, so far I haven't seen anything like that.

I may actually have to buy this one and read it!

I should get a finder's fee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL. You should leave him a note and tell him he at least owes you a copy!

In addition to a finder's fee, I think we should get a thank you or something for the following: http://www.gather.com/viewImage.jsp?fileId=3096224744446000

And here I thought it was the Mormons (oops, I mean LDS) that are The Chosen.

Pffft to it all.

Wouldn't it be a hilarious prank if Heaven didn't exist at all? I mean, think of the laughs God would get at that!

He made everyone believe in this great afterlife and whatnot and made people debate incessantly about who, if anyone, is chosen, etc.... And then WHAMMY! When you die, there is nothing except a big man sitting at a desk outside a gate saying, "HAHAHAHAHA! GOTCHA!"

Shannon! lol

Uh oh...

Lainie that would be....

Yikes. What a concept.

Speaking of Yikes! I must actually go do more work now.

Play nice amongst yourselves.

Back later.

Yes, Dani.... It's usually just you.... But... I'm not sure that you and I have ever been left unsupervised TOGETHER!

On my own, I'm fine. But, I am susceptible to suggestions.

I vote for nut. Then again, when people start quoting the Bible to make their point, they get the 'nut' label from me. So who knows.

NO! He is dead wrong. I am Presbyterian. Go to http://www.pcusa.org/navigation/whoweare.htm or http://www.pcusa.org/today/believe/believe.htm to find out what we Presbyterians are really all about.

Print some of this out and leave it on your co-workers desk! :-)

I have never heard of this before. The Jews are Gods chosen people but this doesnt mean that we cant get into Heaven. All we have to do is to repent our sins and believe in God.

Chip, thank you for the information.

Vickey, that's what I've always been led to believe.

Kirk, it makes perfect sense. That's why some are preachers, some are evangelists, some have other talents... like those who can sing so beautifully. It does make sense.

Thank you all for your input.

Ok, within each religious sect, there are always fundamentalists. So, I'm not saying what your co-worker believes is wrong (although it is certainly not what I believe), but I am Presbyterian and I've never heard anything of the kind. I was raise in a pretty liberal Presbyterian church, but No, I've never heard that in my faith only certain people are chosen, nor are women second class citizens. I have ALWAYS had female ministers in my church. (And yes to what Lainie said about the committees. There are committees for everything!)

I took a class last winter on the history of religion in American, and I was surprised to learn how prevalent religion has been in US history. It doesn't surprise me that within my own denomination there are people who disagree so completely with how I was raised, but it saddens me a great deal to hear this person has been portraying Presbyterians in this manner.

Cori, you don't know the half of it. I didn't tell everything.. just the two particular points that almost had me wanting to denounce religion altogether!

Only 144,000 taken from earth..Rev 14:1,4- Rev. 7:2-4- Rev. 5:9,10
Literal earth to be permanent..Ecc. 1:4- Psams 104:5
No more tears,.. no dying...new "earth" Rev. 21:3-4
What's it all mean Bazzel? Well...there are no tears in heaven, no dying either..so the earth spoken of here would have to be literal.
What would you do in heaven anyway...isn't everyone's idea of paradise a little different? Wouldn't it be great if heaven was right here on earth? I miss the taste of chocolate and strawberries. The smell of cedar and the color red. The sounds of a harp playing all the time would be most unbearable, not to mention not being able to hold your childs hand and look into their beautiful eyes.
Just some thoughts. Call it practical reasoning from the bible.

Hi Tina,

Hopefully I can help shed a little bit of light on the issue you were asking about. I am by no means an expert, but I have been studying this topic in-depth and have found some satisfactory answers to my questions so I'll pass them along for you to mull over.

What your co-worker is referring to is called Predestination and Election (you can find more in the Westminster Confession of Faith by Googling it online.) The debates regarding predestination and free will vs. the sovereignty of God have been going on since the time of Augustine. I encourage you to do your own research if you are really interested in hearing what the Bible says regarding these ideas. Resources for learning what the Bible says from a reformed (Augustinian) view are R.C.Sproul's Renewing your Mind website at renewingyourmind.org and CRI at equip.org. You can listen to C.H. Spurgeon's sermons online at sermonaudio.org for free, too.

From my understanding election and predestination can be summed up like this: 1. God is holy (set apart) 2. We are sinners at birth (we sin because we are sinners we are not sinners because we sin) 3. Election and predestination are based on God's sovereignty not human desire (no one can come to God unless God first calls him/her. This is called regeneration: We were dead (not sick, but dead)in our transgressions when God reached out and made us alive in Christ. As R.C. Sproul says, a spiritually dead person can't reach out to God (Eph 2:1-5). ) 4. God, in his grace and love offers his gift of grace to some and his justice to others. Another observation by R.C. Sproul: Notice that NO ONE is treated unfairly; We are all sinners. Sin requires divine judgement so those who receive God's justice are being treated fairly (this concept can be a whole study in itself and I suggest watching R.C. Sproul's video logs online on Free Will to learn more) and those who are predestined receive grace and mercy so that no one can boast that they are saved as a result of their own efforts (which includes their faith, which is a gift of God): Eph 2:8-10, Rom. 9:11-18) I know this one might have thrown you off a bit if you're like me and you had never heard that concept before but try to stay with me until I finish explaining...5. Predestination is a supreme example of God's goodness and grace. (Another R.C. Sproul explanation: Imagine there were 10 people on death row for 1st degree murder and they were all destined to receive the death penalty. Now imagine that the Governor chooses to extend grace to one and set him free, but chooses to extend justice to the others and they are executed for their crimes. Did the judge act unfairly? One received grace (an expression of love and mercy) and the others received justice (an expression of truth). God is the supreme judge and he has the right to choose who will and won't receive his grace or justice. Though we, as people, don't like the idea of that, he states in Rom 9:15 that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion.)

Hopefully this is some help to you and I hope I haven't confused you even more. This topic requires much study so please continue to search and learn more. I encourage you to look to the Bible and listen to people who really know what they are talking about. That's the approach I take because I want to know truth. Truth includes grace and that cannot be overlooked. Often when confronted with truth it is difficult to accept, especially when it goes against what we've been taught, but once understood and accepted the truth will truly set you free. In other words, it is meant to free you from within not bind you and chain you with doubts and fears. I will pray that God directs you and that he will fill you with grace to accept his truth. God Bless.

Tiffany, I appareciate your information. Thank you very much.

I've done some pretty extensive study of my Bible on a number of subjects.

I will continue to believe, I think, in what I've studied and found that God chooses all who choose to come to Him.

God bless.

This guy is full of it. I am a presbyterian myself, and believe me, we think it's very hard to NOT get into heaven.

The Tanach (what you would know as the Old Testament) does not mention a "heaven" and a "hell". These are constructs of christianity taken from Greek mythology. Indeed, the Jews were chosen to receive Torah (first five books) at Sinai because they said, "We will do and we will hear". In other words, we don't have to know what is in the contract....we will sign. No other nation would receive the Torah. For the Jews, Olam Habbah (the World to Come) is available to all. All but the most wicked will inherit life in Olam Habbah. To please God and to garner reward, Jews are bound to the 613 Mitzvos (commandments). Non-Jews are only bound to keep the 7 Noachide Laws:
1. No idols
2. "Blessing" the Divine Name (God)
3. No murder
4.No sexual immorality
5. No theft.
6. Establish court systems
7. Don't eat a limb torn from a live animal.

There is no such place as Hell in Jewish belief.