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Comments: 94
I totally support Bush on this one. After all, it's proven to work time and time again, isn't it? Kind of like the war on drugs? I heard that was also very successful.
Yes it does tend to attract cretin no minds such as yourself, Lex.
So, I take it from your article, that your position is abstinence is not effective in preventing pregnancy and the transmission of STDs? Further, that we shouldn't be encouraging young people to refrain for sexual activity until they are in a committed relationship?
Now, from your link, it's clear that the program wasn't successful in changing the behavior that it intended to effect. Okay, so what? We should say, "Well, you're not listening, so go do what you want to do; you're going to anyway!"?
I think we should set standards and maintain those standards, even if there are those who disregard them and put themselves in danger.
You, the rules, the educational system, etc, CANNOT stop kids from doing what they want to do - unless you lock them up. So, WE need to offer alternatives - if they are going to do it, we need to teach them how to do it safely.....
You've managed to convince me of your total lack of a brain on some subjects once again, because:
If our 87.5 million dollar program did one Fing bit of good, I'd agree wholeheartedly, but since it doesn't do a damn thing, except cost you and I money, how about we look at other alternatives,even other ways of teaching abstinence, anything, but pour more money into the RR coffers for absolutely no good effect, or how about we take tax free status away from the churches running these programs, because they are definitely on the public dole, and that may be exactly Bush's intent.
Lainie P., Oct 30, 2007, 11:56am EDT
I don't know many. I have a 16-year-old and I worry about him all the time. I know at 16 I didn't listen to my parents. But they didn't change their standards due to my insubordination, and I haven't changed mine when my child ignores me. Likewise, we, as a society, shouldn't roll over just because the young folks don't live up to our standards for them. We continue to insist on those standards and continue to encourage them the live up to them.
Capitulation isn't the answer.
No, but complete and utter failure isn't either. Keep your moral standards, drill it into them, but let's try something else that works with government funds.
Why do insist on the ad hominem attacks? Man, they sure get irritating. Of course I have a brain. I just see the issue different from you.
If effectiveness is the only measure you want to use as to whether a government program should exist, I con point to a plethora of programs favored by the political left of this country that is not only ineffective in addressing the problems they profess to improve, they actually exacerbate them. So, be very careful before you go down the "effectiveness" road, with glass houses being what they are.
No, Ron. It is the lack of abstinence that has proven to be a failure. If abstinence had been followed the problems you bemoan woudn't exist.
"Sixteen year olds need to learn the information for their entire lives - not just while they are teenagers.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:06pm EDT
I don;t disagree with that, joe. But, the lesson shouldn't be, "Go have sex at 16 and use a condom." No, it should be, "Don't have sex until you're an adult in a committed relationship it's wrong. Bad things can happen to you is you do, like getting a disease or an unwanted pregancy, which will screw up the rest of your life."
Lainie P., Oct 30, 2007, 12:16pm EDTM
As I understand it, the study was on the effectiveness of such a program ... and the results weren't encouraging. I would hope the report on the study went into further depth about why it wasn't as effeective as we would like and what alterations could be made to make it more effective.
Now, I may agree with you on whether this is something that we shouls be spending public funds on. But, I also don't think we should be spending public funds on providing condoms and other birth control either. I don;t hold out much hope THAT funding will stop anytime soo, so I don't see $87 million to study a counter to the message handing out free birth control sends to young people as being particularly outrageous.
Yes it should, and I think you should have that talk with them, and I think that your pastor should have that talk with them, but since it's proven that throwing 87.5 million dollars of taxpayer money down this rathole does absolutely no one any good, except the recipients of the grants, ithink they shouldn't be having that talk with them on our dime. Show me the error in my thinking here David, show me one reasonable error.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:19pm EDT
I didn't say tell them to avoid sex because its dirty. I said to avoid sex because it isn't good for them. Just like you responsibly told your daughters. Good for you! And, I'm glad things worked out well for them.
But I'd bet it had a better than NO effect on stopping teen pregnancy and STDs, David, would you like to bet on that one?
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:28pm EDT
With all due respect, Joe, perhaps you should take your own advice.
The Title X Program
Title X has been key in helping millions of American women prevent unintended pregnancies and obtain reproductive health care for three decades.
While this system allows for maximum flexibility in the administration of the program, Title X also sets a minimum standard of care for those individuals who want reproductive health care. The law's provisions include requirements
- that people be given a choice of contraceptive methods (including periodic abstinence and other fertility awareness-based methods)
- no one is coerced into accepting a particular method or any method at all
services are provided in the context of related reproductive health care
recipients are charged fees based on their income and ability to pay
- no Title X funds are used to pay for abortions (P.L. 91-572, 1970).
You see, Joe. Our tax dollars are already supporting the other side of the issue.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:35pm EDT
You get what you ask for, Joe. You promote sexual activity be ameliorating its consequences for those who should not by engaging in it.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:47pm EDT
Yes, I do.
But apparently, you get nothing for what you pay for, now do you? Not when it's Government dictating morals. I think we tried that once in the thirties, didn't we? How'd that all work out? Oh, yeah, great for Al Capone, not so great for those that went blind on bathtub gin, and even died, but hey, they were lawbreakers, right? And hey, these kids are sinners, right? They should pay, that's the RR message on everything, set them up to fail, and then be surprised when they do. Didn't any one of them read the Bible where it said all men are sinners?, and then they go out and expect their kids to be angels, and when they don't, they cut them loose? Morals are a funny thing in ignorant fundyville, I've noticed.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:44pm EDT
GAO Report
Title X is the only federal program dedicated solely to funding family planning and related reproductive health care services.
There are other sources, but, I'll rest my case.
The point is, people, that the report published BY THIS ADMINISTRATION shows that their program is totally ineffective. The control group, who did not receive the program, had the EXACT SAME RESULTS AS THE GROUP THAT DID RECEIVE THE PROGRAM. Anybody with half a brain would deduce that the program has ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the group to which it was provided.
The obvious conclusion is that we are spending over a billion dollars a year on a program that HAS NO EFFECT. Think of it in terms of a blind study in medicine. This kind of outcome would totally discredit the group receiving treatment - you may as well have provided them a placebo.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 12:58pm EDT
I also understand that as human, we are capable of not succumbing to our base, animal instincts. Children need to be taught not to give into those urges, it's not right to do so.
Sheryl O., Oct 30, 2007, 1:06pm EDT
I haven't mentioned religion once, Sheryl. That was Joe.
Sheryl O., Oct 30, 2007, 1:06pm EDT
By that logic, let's stop funding the myriad of anti-poverty programs funded by the government, because, we still have poverty. We have to dismantle the Army and Navy, because after 231 years we still have enemies that we have yet to defeat.
Just because something isn't solved by our "fast-food" mentality, i.e. "give it to me now", doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to pursue or that we should give up on it.
Sheryl O., Oct 30, 2007, 1:09pm EDT
No you don't.
Now there's some proof of gray matter. I don't think that's even close to the same logic David, I think that's anti logic if anything, and will blow up when it touches logic.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 1:11pm EDT
No. The GAO obfuscated the Title X law, in your opinionm anyway. I'm just reporting what they said. Take it up with them.
Let me see, shall we look at this logic? Anti poverty programs, do we still have any? Well, if we do, I would imagine, unlike this program, they have made more than a zero effect on poverty, and the military, did I miss where every foe we ever met defeated us, because that's what would be necessary for this to be logically compared to a program that has zero effectiveness. Yeah, that's logic. Tell me again why you were upset about my reference to no brain on this subject?
However, given the additional information that they have had no impact on the other areas of sexual behavior either, then it is additionally logical that not just delivery is flawed, but also the content. I think anybody with any kind of ability to reason knows that simply focusing on one content area is not going to help such a complex problem.
Even if I'm ignored though, on my own article, I'm going to get my points across, one way or another.
It's so simplistic in their minds. So cut and dry, so black and white, so sin and no-sin. You cannot reason with minds like that. You cannot hold up the value of science or knowledge to minds like that. They will dodge, divert, hold up ridiculous analogies....they are masters at that. But the bottom line is simply, because their god tells them so. THAT is what is governing this country right now. Be afraid.....be very afraid...and work to get these zealots out of any kind of positions of power and control.
Let them suffer for a while.
Joe T., Oct 30, 2007, 1:46pm EDT
That's because MOST people believe that teaching kids to abstain from sex until they are in a committed, adult relationship is the right thing to do -- and that's how they vote. See, there's this little thing democracy ...
Perhaps you Libs should try it sometime.
"It seems that adults should be teaching the children instead of demanding ideals that don't work."
Again, it's not the ideals that are failing. It's the failure to adhere to those ideals that is failing.
Sheryl O., Oct 30, 2007, 1:45pm EDT
I wasn't inferring that you were, Sheryl.
It is pretty evident now that we will have a change of parties in the White House in '09. And the Democrats have no love for the minority of fundamentalist activists that Bush has allowed to infiltrate the government and run amuck. I am convinced that the pendulum will swing back and reason will prevail.
I think we all know that this country is run by its economy. Business is already feeling the impacts of a lack of skilled, educated workers, especially in science, medicine and math. I know that this year we need 1.5 million engineers to sustain business right now, and we have 70,000 Americans to fill those positions. There was a report on NPR yesterday about the aging nursing population and the crisis in health care we will face in just a couple of years if new nurses are not being trained to fill these positions. The ability to bring in these types of workers from other countries is going to reach a saturation point.
Business and the vast majority of people are starting to see right now the detrimental effects these religious activists are having on the future of our country. There can just be so many ministers and politicians and lawyers - and the ones they are pumping out are all just interested in creating a theocracy. Business realizes that we need to bring back math, real science and such to our schools and start funneling kids into these fields, and FAST, if we are to continue to compete. Watered down, creationists texts, time wasted in schools praying and communing - all this will hit the fan very soon, actually is in my area of the country where it really never had a firm hold. We are starting to see the pendulum swing back to reason and knowledge.
There may be some common ground, like abortion, but overall these people are of a different breed altogether. They are raised to be crusaders, warriors - much like the jihadists. In fact, there is very little difference between a radical Muslim jihadist and these people in many ways. We make it much easier for them in the US because they can use our tolerance and free speech against us, much liket he Imams in the Netherlands are doing. They actually come out publically and laugh at how easy it is to infiltrate democracies because they DO allow freedom of religion and speech. But, make no mistake - this is not an exercise in freedom of speech or religion. This is a crusade for them - and the next generation of children being raised this way will be even bigger and more fervent zealots. This IS a matter of national security. We need to start taking these people seriously and not being afraid to confront them and call their tactics what they really are.
Exposing the light of truth on Liberal mischaracterizations and lies.
That's the insanity of your position, Ron. You think mischaracterizations and lies are the truth. That's been my point the whole time.
Sheryl O., Oct 30, 2007, 4:40pm EDT
Which explains this little colloquy you two are having. Dwiddle Dee and ...
Listen ... you can actually HEAR strains of the theme from Twilight Zone
The mere idea that without funding, "kids" wouldn't know about how to keep from becoming pregnant or contracting an STD is ridiculous.
Some children (and yes I do mean children) have all the information and access to condoms, birth control pills, etc., yet become pregnant. The worst part of all this is that society (and their peers) accept this pregancy with open arms.
The key is "some". Many do not, obviously.
Let me give you a hint, you aren't Rod , and the music is for you. You have entered the Twilight Zone, long ago.