Earlier this year there was “travelflub.” It involved a set of new travel requirements aimed at controlling illegal immigration. However, it was so poorly planned that it had to be scrapped after it was to be put into effect when passport offices were paralyzed by the crush of applicants.
Now, there’s “workerflub,” which started two months ago when the government, with much fanfare, announced that it was really getting serious about weeding out illegal immigrant workers.
The way it would work was that employers were to be notified of any workers who had any discrepancies in their records, and the employees would then have a limited time to contact the Social Security Administration and straighten out the problems, or face termination of their jobs.
The purpose of the plan, which was to be put into effect by the Department of Homeland Security, was to find and deport workers who were using false social security numbers.
One of the problems that was evidently ignored by the planners, however, was the fact that some 13 million workers have discrepancies in their records, and many of these are perfectly legal citizens. The errors, in many cases, were reported to be as benign as misspelled names and mistakes in birthdates.
Overall, there were 25 million wage reports received last year by the Social Security Administration where the names did not match the SS numbers, according to a Homeland Security spokesman. A substantial number were thought to involve native born citizens.
And, beyond the chaos that would be caused as people attempted to correct the records, many experts anticipated that the new regulations would also have the effect of leaving farmers without workers to pick the crops, restaurants without cooks and dishwashers, and small businesses without a ready source of casual labor.
Nevertheless, despite the dire predictions, the plan pressed boldly forward, and went into effect as scheduled.
Now, no more than 60 days later, the very problems that were predicted are now beginning to unfold.
The most serious repercussion is that there is now a shortage of farm workers that is seriously threatening to prevent the harvesting of fruits and vegetables, leaving them rotting in the fields.
It is reported that almost three quarters of farm workers are thought to be illegal, and farms in the major agricultural areas of the central valley of California, for example, are currently experiencing a 20% labor shortfall, according to the LA Times.
One of the major farmers in the area was quoted as saying “It’s like a ticking time bomb that’s going to go off.”
As a result of this latest example of poor planning, the government is scrambling to rectify the situation. The Bush administration has begun to quietly rewrite the federal regulations so as to eliminate the barriers that restrict how foreign laborers can legally be brought into the country, according to press reports.
In addition, officials at three federal agencies are scrutinizing the regulations to see if they can revise the farm worker program. One of the problems they are encountering, however, is that this particular program is extremely unwieldy and it has had little historical impact on the process. By avoiding the program altogether, farmers have been able to pay workers considerably less.
Some consumers may be willing to suffer the consequences, just to see the immigration laws strictly enforced. However, the farmers represent a potent political force and their needs are not to be ignored.
The changes that are being implemented are, at this point, a mystery, as administration officials have declined to discuss the details.
But no matter what they entail, the farmers fear that they will not go into effect soon enough to have any impact on the 2008 growing season, suggesting the likelihood of serious shortages and higher prices at the grocery stores, somewhat down the road.
Dave McGill, News Correspondent……………….
Dave’s column, “The Contrarian,” generally published every Wednesday, to Gather Essentials: News will sometimes present a contrary view to various aspects of the news, or an alternate take on the conventional wisdom of the day, and will occasionally also appear on other days of the week………….
Dave has been a senior officer of a large eastern insurance company, involved in economic projections and investment strategy, president of a Midwestern mortgage banking company, and a financial consultant in Southern California, serving clients in the field of commercial real estate development…………….
You can find all of Dave’s “The Contrarian” columns at: http://gather.com/thecontrarian...... Keep up with Dave’s other postings and Gather activity by joining his Gather network – just click here: http://atadaskew.gather.com........ You’ll find Dave and other News Correspondents, plus celebrity content and plenty of other News experts at News.gather.com.
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Comments: 89
Oh my 3 SS numbers. One for work, one for welfare, one for INS.
And I was born here.
However, what is happening now also reinforces my contention that if we crack down on those who hire and start checking identification, much of the problem will self-correct. Many of those here illegally remain because they know they are not going to be held accountable. As soon as the government begins a crackdown, they start disappearing.
I do think that the government had better come up with a way of fixing the legitimate goofs connected with social security numbers so that we don't wind up with another stupid mess like the last time with the passports. Doesn't anyone think these things through and attempt to project the problems before they implement these changes? Heck, asking someplace such as Gather would have gotten them the information they need and more opinion than they could handle in one day.
Grow it...
...and they will come.
Now lets talk about the programs that are legal but no one seems to want to mention them because it would squelch the talk about the poor migrant workers. There is a Visa program that is called H2A that regulates the amount of farm workers needed here in the United States, documents them, and sees that they are paid a decent wage with health care benefits. Oh but at who's cost? Follow the money trail and I bet you will find that's why they would rather have the Illegal Immigrants.
What the problem is, these Slave profiteers that are paying the Illegal Immigrant workers pennies on the dollar don't have any Idea what's going to happen when they are given Amnesty. The free ride of paying them pennies will be over. They as United States Citizens will start screaming at the top of there lung about how abused they are in the fields and entities like the ACLU will come running to the rescue. You want to talk about the prices in the grocery stores going through the ceiling.
Its time that we as Americans quit looking the other way while an estimated 3000 to 5000 Illegal Immigrants cross our border everyday.
Wil B.,
Are you the guy from Movie (Knocked UP)? Farmsteads? Farms, Vineyards, Orchards.
picking ANYTHING is BENEATH them, does not PAY them what they FEEL they are worth.........(funny there is enough money for CRACK in the same pockets!).......I really
thought we had something with the "documented temps" deal......but what happehed to THAT?
This is true; however, it turns out that the number of people allowed in under this provision is woefully inadequate, and the quotas are filled well before mid-year. Maybe farmers can, as has been suggested, pick lettuce with machines, but that doesn't happen overnight -- and for some farmers with thin margins, never. When prices for produce start shooting up, you'll hear the howls from afar.
I agree, though, that we should try to control illegal immigration better (although if history is any guide, this won't happen). The War on Illegals is like the War on Drugs: the demand for both is high and the rewards too tempting, especially, in the case of illegals, if your family is starving and you are desperate. If the DEA can't pull it off, I guarantee you the INS can't: it makes FEMA look like a well-oiled machine!
And thank you, Will, for that comment!
As for the NORMAL WAGE labor, there is NO SHORTFALL at all.
Solution ? Don't offer low wages. Offer normal American level living wages - with
that, there then is NOT a shortfall. Don't want a shortfall ? Don't create one.
So what happens to the farmers who can't afford to pay at normal American wage
levels (who thereby shouldn't have been in business in the first place) ? They go out of
business, and go out and get a JOB like the rest of us, who also can't afford it, either.
As for higher prices, farmers are limited in how much they can hike prices by the
amount of sales reduction resulting from those higher prices. They are not so well ABLE
to raise prices.
I'd also be interested in hearing what people think a fair wage for that sort of work might be.
Personally, I've done a bit of field work many years ago, and I'm not interested in doing it again. Ever. I don't mind paying prices that support fair wages, but I don't want to be the guy out in the fields doing the work.
Exactly.....this is NOT a global war on terror and never was. With thousands streaming unchallenged across the border every day . . . it's obvious.
Illegal Immigration is desired by some (who profit) and undesired by the vast majority of people. Once again, we find our government lets us down and simply refuses to deal with the issue! You can choose to allow amnesty or live with the illegals . . . but they're staying either way. You'll note that the last amnesty bill offered was supported by George Bush and both Republicans and Democrats . . . but because of the outrage by the people, it was killed. Now I've seen thousands of illegals rounded up for deportation . . . but haven't heard ONE WORD about business owners who hire them being prosecuted. Many of the Deportees will be right back! Likely back to their same jobs in some cases.
If they wanted to end this they could punish the people who hire them with mandatory 1 year jail sentences and a $10,000 dollar fine. The problem then . . . would solve itself. As it is . . . they lose a day or two of labor . . . hire another . . . . and write it off as a business expense!
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
We actually agree on something!!!!LOL throw them employers in Federal Prisons.
Wil B.
Lets go pick some Lettuce and demand decent wages!!!! We can start a lettuce revolution!!! Actualy my Cousin is a Farmer, I will call him and ask if he knows how much other farmers around him are paying their Illegal help. Im sure its not a heavily talked about subject being that if they did and it got out they might get reported.
CAUSE AND EFFECT
Now the pay has to be minimum wage and the farmers will have to pay their employees like everyone else with a business.
The farmers should be fined or forced to not raise the crop prices because they have been "living off the land" for far to long. The ones that are regularly paid not to plant will have to plant to make up the difference.
There is no sense in making rules if they are not expected to be followed. Do we tell our kids they have a curfew and then ignore it when it is challenged?
Anybody got drastically different numbers?
I know for a fact that the Day Labor here in Oregon gets $9/hour and lunch. A guy I know hires them quite often and he is the biggest complainer about them being here. He doesn't like it when I call him on supporting them. Imagine that.
And as for the earlier mentioned programs that allowed a certain number of workers who were regulated and paid taxes etc ... the program where there not enough allowed billets ... it is probably the most business savvy employers that fill all of those positions because they are Corporate and lobbied for the laws in the first place so us tax payers could fund the subsidy to them ... Think about it ...
As for links/statistics, those are hard to come by considering that these workers are most often paid in cash under the table. It might surprise you to learn that most people doing that don't keep good records. I don't know what the pay is for field workers in California or elsewhere. I know that when I worked in the fields as a teen the pay was ridiculously low, but it did pay for my school clothes.
My last post I forgot to mention that the $9/hour was tax free. I couldn't tell you if the same wages are paid to the Farm Workers. What I do know is the Farmers are really picky about their labors because if you get people who dont know what they are doing they can damage the trees and vines. What I have been told is that most of the Farmers around here use the same people each year because they know what to expect from them.
http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/FarmLabo/FarmLabo-08-17-2007.txt
The problem isn't the wage. It's that it's hard work & seasonal work (so employees have to move around to keep working).
It's also interesting how the people who are always complaining about illegal immigration will tell you on the one hand these 12 million + people are being paid under the table and on the other that they're all involved in identity theft and using other people's SS #'s. If it's the latter it's because they need them to work (and I think it is the latter if you consider the amount that's going into social security from people with false SS #'s). See for example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Why are we picking on them? I am STILL for full amnesty!
I would not oppose this type of earned amnesty for just those students who graduate from college and who were brought here before they were 15 or 16 years of age, and who are now currently under 25. That would be a fair group. I also would not oppose adding those who serve in the military to that with the same conditions, but ONLY if there was no way they could ever sponsor anyone who came here illegally otherwise. Kids can't help where they are taken; adults know and have to accept there are consequences for actions.
Other than that I am opposed to any form of amnesty that doesn't require those getting it to return to their home country, apply legally from there, and wait for their applications to be processed. That's the only fair thing we can do given that those who come here legally don't get to come here and stay here while their applications are being processed. I would also restrict those types of applicants as to who they can sponsor to minor children, spouse, or parents.
Yeah, that's one of the things I can't quite figure out. If the workers have documents, it usually works out better for the employer to pay them "on the books." I know that doesn't happen all the time (I've done the day laborer thing and been paid in cash), but even when it's under the table it's still a market transaction.
By all accounts, there's a labor shortage at harvest times, so that those selling their labor have the upper hand. From what I've been reading, to some degree part of the problem may be that these are becoming jobs even illegal Mexican migrants won't do.
Another part of the reason why those jobs aren't being filled is because of increased enforcement. Grower after grower is saying that, and yet at the same time we keep hearing how the border is wide open and nobody's enforcing the laws already on the books. Seems to me somebody's got it wrong.
"I also would not oppose adding those who serve in the military to that with the same conditions, but ONLY if there was no way they could ever sponsor anyone who came here illegally otherwise."
Once they're citizens, they would have the same rights as all other citizens. To do otherwise would create a two-tier system of citizenship, which in my opinion goes against everything America stands for.
making over $10/hour. Sure, there are reports. Some may even "report" higher wages than that - many are false claims, AKA lies.
Most farm workers in Florida are legal workers in guest worker programs. These are outside the issue of illegal immigration. If we're being told the illegal workers are making over $10/hour down here, I'll just laugh at that. Don't believe everything you read especially if it's about illegal immigration, in the New York Times.
As for using citizens' social security #s, often more is tasken out by illegals than put in. In the infamous case of Audra Schmierer, Senator John Ensign reported to the Senate, they cleaned out her social security account down to zero, after 14 years of her
paying into it.
I'm going to do some checking on illegal alien pay just out of curiosity. There isn't any question that they are paid far less than Americans. You weren't trying to imply that were you, Wil ? LOL. Or if you don't want to do that work, why did you want to
know how much they're paid ??????
Again, after living in New York City and reading the New York Times for 30 years, when it comes to illegal immigration forget the New York Times.
a good wage and you get plenty of workers. This is a basic rule of thumb that applies to most any type of work, including many that are a lot tougher than picking fruit and
vegetables.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
California, where onions aren't being harvested. The owner claims it's because of the
ICE crackdown. The reporter asked the owner : "If you paid higher wages couldn't you then get Americans to work here ?".
The owner replied "there is no amount of money that will pay Americans to do this work". THAT'S A LIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did that work on an onion farm in California, with a temp service, for 3 weeks,
for only $6/hour in 1988, just to shore up my sagging sales, when I owned my own business. The work wasn't all that bad, and nowhere near as bad as a few other jobs I've done in the past. This owner, like most illegal employers, is just too greedy and too cheap to pay a decent wage. So, because of that, his onions rot. Good!! I hope he goes out of business entirely. We don't need these lawbreaking creeps.
How much was he paying?
"If we're being told the illegal workers are making over $10/hour down here, I'll just laugh at that. Don't believe everything you read especially if it's about illegal immigration, in the New York Times."
If you've got a better source of info that proves them wrong, post it.
Same thing's been happening here in Australia.
From what I know of the situation here, the "minimum wage" for that sort of work is around US$15 an hour. But people with experience usually prefer to be paid by the bucket/bin/etc. because they can make significantly more.
I've known quite a few people who've done it as a way to make money while traveling around the country. Even so, there are labor shortages here as well, which is partially dealt with through guest worker programs and hiring illegal workers.
I love watching people try to debate a subject that ends at the start. When these people knowingly walk past the border they broke the law. I hear the word double standards used quite often. If you break the Law will you get your sentence commuted because you had a horrible childhood and was forced to break the law? Probably not. So why is it that so many people would with a waive of a wand give these people Amnesty after they broke the law? How about the people who have taken the time and paid the money to become United States Citizens legally? Wouldn't that be double standards not to pay them back for their time and money lost for obeying the law of this country. How about this double standard, why dont you go and try and become an Illegal Immigrant in Mexico and see where that gets you. Another double standard, lets give Amnesty to the children of the people who broke the law. After we give the kids Amnesty then they can sponcer the Mother and Father that broke the law in the first place. Sound like a good Idea to you?
I have been along with many other people watching the last two days the Former Mexican President Vincente Fox tell Legal United States Citizens how we are actually racist because we obey our laws and expect others to Obey them. The Two Shows he was on was Larry King Live and Lou Dobbs, and everyone needs to watch them. What we are tired of is his Incompetance and and the new President of Mexico's Incompetance. We United States Citizens are tired of footing the Bill For that Incompetance and we wont quit fighting until the problem is gone. We have plenty of our own problems like the ones Robert and Doyle have said to take care of on our side of the border (Businesses that hire Illegals knowingly) but its time for the Governments of the Countries these people are coming from to step up and start fixing the problems in stead of wanting the people of the United States to foot the bill for their problems.
Wil, I'm still chuckling over your first comment....Like you, I worked on a farm - in my case, a potato, hay and cow farm in New Hampshire - and was paid $10/week for about 90 hours of work. It was a summer job and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was in great shape, physically, by the end of the summer.
The reason I mention it, is because it got me to thinking that, if they ever get to require young people out of high school or college to put in a stint of public service, which I thoroughly would support, farm work might be one such area. The problem would be to make sure that the cheap labor didn't translate into bigger profits for the farmers.
Thanks to all for your comments. I tend to agree with Robert F. that the true pay being earned by migrant workers is not reflected in the government stats.
Probably not. On the other hand, when I break the law the odds are astronomically in my favor that I won't get caught and won't have to worry about being sentenced. The same goes for the vast majority of people who break the law.
The only way I can think of for everybody who breaks the law to get the punishment they deserve is if they turn themselves in and demand punishment. I haven't seen that happening. I don't do it, and I don't know anybody else that does it. Do you do it, Bruce? Or are you claiming that you never break the law?
"So why is it that so many people would with a waive of a wand give these people Amnesty after they broke the law?"
The last I heard, nobody was offering unconditional amnesty. No wave of the wand. An opportunity based on meeting certain conditions. In some cases, I believe that even included fines. Imagine that. Having to pay a fine for breaking the law. What a concept.
I see your still not talking about the governments that these people are coming from. No I dont break the Law Wil and if I did, I wouldn't cry because I got caught like so many are.
The CBS report on the onion farm (in Gilroy, CA I think it was), did not state
what the pay had been. It inferred (something I never do) that the pay was low, when the reporter asked about raising the pay and getting American workers.
If you want to know what that pay was you may contact Katie Couric at CBS
and mention the illegal immigration report broadcast today at 6:45 PM EDT.
As for the illegal worker pay here, I'll check with some of the local day labor sites and
orchards and see what they'll tell me - they are a better source than the New York Times or the St. Petersburg Times.
For some info about the most important government that these people are coming from, see my article "So What's Happening In Mexico ?", Sept. 20.
Also : Anything, for illegal aliens, ending with citizenship, is Amnesty. If illegals want
citizenship, there's a legal process for them to follow.
Since I've never met or heard of anyone who could honestly make this claim, I hope you'll forgive me if I don't take your word for it.
Also, I'd still like to hear what people think a fair wage for this sort of work might be.
Wil ... wouldn't the free market determine that? Having poor desperate people around that get no benefits and are afraid to stand up for any rights has to make the wage lower, no?
Quite possibly, Bruce. But is that the situation as it actually exists? From the articles I've been reading, a lot of illegal workers seem to have their sights set on other (easier?) jobs with better wages. The don't seem to be desperately begging for work at any wage any more.
Depending on who you believe, either they're finding and taking those other jobs and don't need benefits, or they're all getting tons of benefits to which they may or may not be entitled. One of the big complaints I hear and read about illegal immigrants is that they're sucking up all the benefits. This one's as hard to figure out as the one about how they're all using fake documents and ripping off Social Security and working for cash under the table.
And the same goes for them being too afraid to stand up for their rights. I know it happens. I know there are lots of people being exploited all the time, and I'm certainly not trying to gloss over that. But again, one of the big complaints from the anti-immigration people is that too many of them are daring to stand up for their rights.
But to get back to that free market thing, I totally understand what you're saying. But if the jobs are unfilled, how are illegals lowering the wages?
I keep hearing people say it's not that Americans won't do the work, it's just that they won't do it for the wages currently on offer. I thought maybe some of those people knew how much it would take for Americans to be willing to do the work. But maybe not. :(
The point isn't who will/won't take the jobs, but rather whether those trying to get them are here legally and therefore entitled to do them. For that the employers need to check, then the workers need to get the discrepancies fixed. However, there need to be some safeguards for legitimate workers who are just the victim of some clerical error. In other words, someone with the authority to clear this stuff up really fast provided the proper proof is offered. I'm talking in one visit, not in weeks or months.
You cannot stop illegal immigration so long as: city dwellers want cheap food supplies; farmers must have cheap labour to meet the need; American labourers expect better jobs than seasonal work at subsistence level wages; businesses are under extreme competition to keep labour and other costs as low as possible in order to compete with big box discount stores and with third world manufacturers.
In short, like it or not, the American economy cannot afford any measure that will effectively curtail illegal immigration and the American voter will not accept any measures that hurt the economy.
Either change your religion or accept the presence of illegal aliens and the drain they place on resources and infrastructure and the danger they represent to national security.
The politicians are simply rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, making feeble stabs at solutions they know will not work because they already know this.
In the 1990s, the labor force grew by 16.7 million workers, 6.4 million—or 38 percent of them—foreign-born. The majority of foreign-born workers (4.2 million) came during the boom of 1996–2000, when their share of job growth shot up to 44 percent. In essence, immigrants filled four of every 10 job openings at a time when the unemployment rate hit record lows.
And they didn't just go to the usual "destination" states exclusively either---
Meatpacking, for example, drew thousands of immigrants to the Midwest, and poultry processing did the same in the South Atlantic states. Jobs in these two industries exemplify the type of jobs new immigrants commonly fill—low-skill, blue-collar jobs.
This is because a large percentage of immigrants have less than a high school education. About 33 percent of immigrants have not finished high school, compared with 13 percent of natives.
Immigrants overwhelmingly filled blue-collar jobs (operators, fabricators and laborers) but also accounted for as much as half the growth in categories such as administrative support and services.
The more than sixfold growth in the laborer category reflects that many immigrants are not only low-skilled compared with natives but that their skills do not transfer easily to the U.S. workplace.
It also means that as immigrants entered these occupations, native workers exited.
The simple truth is, our economy would go to shit without the mexicans bro.
I can dismiss your bable as ignorance because I dont know you? Ok we will go by your rules, and where are you residing? Australia? Lets talk about your rules? Oh yeah thats right you dont claim anywhere so you can talk crap about anyone without backlash. Take care of your backyard Wil and we will take care of ours.
jJack Midknight,
Dont know where you live but the economy is going to shit with the Mexicans bro.
Thanks for the advice, Bruce. If it makes you feel any better, I am taking care of my backyard. Small planet, ain't it? :)
amazing how many people see even this to be used to political advantage...this has been a bi-partisan time bomb since the 80s "final solution to the immigartion problem". Then Kennedy worked w/the Repubs under Reagan to give amnesty...he is doing it again under Bush...
this is why everyone should realize by now government is INCAPABLE of swift effective action except possibily in military sector. Both parties are into this up their necks and neither really wants to change things...just wait till 2008 if the Dems expand their majorities.
Rory: I disagree that we cannot control immigration. We choose not to do so for the benefit of many businesses, big and small, but we could control it. We could have tightly controlled and monitored guest worker programs, a real ID program for those allowed in, and punitive punishment for those who ignore the law. If you coupled that with good tight border security and putting the military to patrol our southern border, and we could in fact control illegal immigration to a great extent. Totally? Probably not. Better than now? Almost certainly.
Just as the laws were ignored to benefit the businesses who hire illegals, they could be enforced now. If that happened there would be an upheaval and the government would be forced to simplify and streamline the legal process and put programs in place to meet the need legally. They don't do it now because employers don't want to be put into the position of having to pay standard wages, benefits, taxes, etc. and to do the paperwork necessary to track and control those here on temporary permits.
Homeland Security Secy Michael Chertoff said that his dept. might launch a legal challenge. He also said that they are continuing to pursue other forms of employer enforcement, including criminal prosecution.
"How much it would take for Americans to do the work" I would imagine depends upon the desirability or undesirability of the particular work, as well as the cost of living in one's area. In the area where I live, (central Florida), I think a minimum of $12/hour is fair, whatever the work. In fact, 3 years ago, I was a member of a living wage ordinance committee, trying to establish that in my city and county. It was a good idea until Bush started relaxing enforcement of the immigration laws, illegal aliens started streaming in, and down went our living wage hopes.
In the case of certain occupations, "how much it would take for Americans to be willing to do the work" would also be dependent on, or connected to, how much the Americans previously made before the illegals came along and undercut their wages. Union leaders in the construction industry have said that their workers were making $25-$30/hour, and were displaced by illegals willing to work for $7-8/hour.
How illegals lower wages is by agreeing to work for wages far below the standards previously in existence. Then, in the absence of immigration law enforcement, their lower wages become the new rate.
From articles you read, Wil, illegals have their sights set on easier jobs with better wages ? What articles were those ? I haven't heard of that, but I'm willing to check into it, if I know where it's written.
"…hard to figure out how they're all using fake documents and ripping off Social Security and working for cash under the table".
Might it be that some illegals are using fake documents and ripping off Social Security (and American citizens), and it is some OTHER illegals who are working for the under table cash ? This seems like a good spot to plug another of my articles. For some interesting information about illegal aliens "using fake documents and ripping off Social Security", see my article "Is Your Social Security Account Safe ? The Audra Schmierer Story".
Oh, we'd be here anyway. The same reason we have Mexican Illegal immigrants. Because as a rule, when the desire to -- or the ability to -- enforce law . . . is not there, immigration will occur.
Regards,
Doyle I <~~~~~
The law we are talking about is Immigration Law. I have been in the United States since I was born and have not Illegally entered another nation knowingly breaking their laws.
Now lets talk about the current Amnesty that our Government is trying to back door through the Senate. The Dream Act. This peice of work would give Amnesty and rights to kids that my Sons and Daughters dont have. Yet we can pay in upward of 30K to 40K in taxes per year to give these individuals rights that my Sons and Daughters Would Not get? I guess we are back at double standards again. What I am refering to is giving the Children of Illegal Immigrants in state tuition rates when my son has to go there and work and have a residence for a year in some cases before he can get the in state tuition rate. Sound Fair to you? This is just one of the injustices in this Dream Act.
David McGill,
The word innocent jumps out at me when refering to Illegal Immigrants. (ILLEGAL) being the key word here. How about the Irreparable harm to the Legal United States Citizens that are loosing their jobs to these Illegals? Oh yeah we are not supposed to take care of our citizens before the ones that will knowingly break our laws to gain entry. Im guessing this Federal Judge must be running for a seat in the Senate.
There it is again! As I have so often asked, would we even be having this conversation if the border in question was NORTH of us? That's it! Build a wall between us and CANADA! Get them wily Canuks before they can take our cushy minimum-wage jobs! That'll show 'em! After all, it's in the interest of national security.
I guess we could all go shopping at Wal Mart and ignore the problem. Some people may want to choose to continue to ingnore this problem and as a Legal Citizen of the United States thats your perogative. Same as its the perogative of the people that see the problem and want to fix it.
paying into it."
How does that work? Some Mexican pretends to be 62 and applies for benefits? My social security "account" is a record of how much I earned in each year...it's not like a bank account. What happened there?
I agree with all those who hold that if we rounded up and deported 12 million illegals the economic repercussions would be very painful -- for us as well as them. It's impossible to do it in any case so we have them, for good or ill.
When four out of 10 people in the workforce are immigrants, you have no choice but to accept the immigrants, or resign your nation to third world status with a rapidly deteriorating economy.
Go ahead, just try to rip out 40% of the work force and see how quickly your world collapses.
I just don't think it's fair that farmers or employers pay illegal immigrants $1 - $2/hr. for work that legal citizens won't do. Nobody works for that kind of money and they shouldn't have to.
I have driven past most of the farms in Northern California and they are not small farmers folks! No, they are names like Dole, DelMonte, and the such. They are Bush men and it won't be long before they make a few well placed calls and suddenly they'll have more illegals than you could ever imagine. The border patrol will be ordered to patrol only certain areas, leaving wide gaps for all these illegals to cross the border and work the fields.
Back to the 'match law' as people keep pointing out there are thousands of discrepancies in the Social Security rolls that involve US citizens and Legal Immigrants... either due to mis spelling of names, use of nick names, marriage, divorce etc. and as my own experience with that particular Government system taught me... even if you do provide all the proper documents to clear up the errors it may be a year or longer before anybody actually reads the paperwork, never mind actually fixing the problem!
And jJack's figures show just how much we depend on foreign born laborers illegal and legal. The impracticality of deporting millions of people just adds further burdens to the system.
Or as song writer Tom Russell says:
"Who's gonna build your wall, boys? Who's gonna build your wall? If you send all the Mexicans home again, who's gonna build your wall?
By what measure, sir ??? Perhaps because YOU lost a job, YOU believe the economy is going to shit, but the last time I looked, all indicators suggest the economy is just fine, even with the subprime madness of idiots loaning money to idiots.
GDP is at record highs, unemployment at historic lows, CPI indicates the consumers are confident, and retail spending is up.
Our economy is just fine buddy, and before you start clucking about the falling dollar, you'd better be prepared to deal with a world where the dollar is 50% stronger. Trust me, you wouldn't like the picture. A weak dollar has worked wonders for our economy for over 25 years now. That's just the way it is when you're the global economy super power on the planet, and the REST OF THE WORLD depends on the buying power of that lone economic superpower.
No matter how bad YOU THINK the economy is now, it ain't NOTHIN' compared to what it would be if you just yanked 40% of the work force out of the game.
So if we filled the over 3 million jobs lost to outsourcing and the jobs filled by Illegals, oh yeah thats right who cares about the United States Citizens that lost there houses, Cars, Insurance to a person from China, Mexico, Malaysia, India, Costa Rica, South America. If you want to live with your head in the sand and play Ostrich Politics more power to you but its funny that there are a huge number of United States Citizens having problems with your way of thinking. Its real easy to talk about how good the economy is when your reaping the benefits, but I would be willing to bet your tone would change if you were on the other side of the picture. By the way the idiots as you call them that bought homes had to be taught by someone to be an idiot, that is a learned trait so where is the real problem (at home). Maybe if the kids got out from in front of the Nintendos long enough to get a job, Oh yeah, the law says the jobs might harm our children. So why is it that the Mexicans and their kids can do them jobs. We wouldn't want to teach our kids about the value of a dollar now would we?
If you use the programs in place for Migrant workers and adjust it for what is needed you wouldn't have to worry about your brocolli making it to your table. Giving a blanket amnesty to who the hell know who is your idea of a solution? Thats a great one.
It has been my position for YEARS now, that every non citizen should be required to have a GPS implant, that's the only kind of "fool proof ID card" I can think of, and even that would have a blackmarket, I'm sure.
I don't believe anyone is introducing any "solutions" because there is no problem.
A solution would be to put sniper towers every 50 yards across the whole border, given them orders "shoot to kill," and the "problem" would be over in a matter of weeks.
But solutions aren't what's needed here, only lip service, and everyone knows it.
And that bull about 3 million jobs, try documenting that one pal, or are you talking about the last 10 years or something.
Do you have any idea how many people are in the USA working today ??? Do you really have such a low comprehension of math that even IF you believe your petty 3 million jobs number were true, it wouldn't represent anymore than 1% of 1% of all the jobs in the USA ???
The USA has created more jobs than the EU and Japan COMBINED since 2000 ALONE ! ! ! ! ! Nearly 8 million jobs in a mere 7 years, and you're going to complain about 3 million lost ???? In industries that are no longer even top tier industries ???
Are you really going to complain about tshirts being made so that we can focus on the information technology sector ???
We don't have ENOUGH freakin' educated people to FILL all of the jobs we have for the highest paid jobs in the world, we create so many of these jobs, they HAVE TO BE OUTSOURCED.
Do you really want people cheap toys on an assembly line, when the could just as easily be working a job in a data aggregator company, like say, google ???l
You're living in the past my friend, and what's worse, you're living there with fear.
You would like to maintain the status quo, well, capitalism doesn't work that way, you are REQUIRED to take the good and the bad with supply and demand, and that means, sometimes, dislocation occurs, sometimes, displaced workers will appear, sometimes, even entire industries will close down.
Let's face it, Detroit put itself out of business, ditto the steal industry, ditto the textile industry. When labor believes THEY are the source of profits, and have unreasonable expectations about what they "deserve," management has little choice but to protect it's interests (money,) by any legal means necessary.
That includes taking THEIR jobs wherever they see fit. There is no such thing as "American jobs," (except of course if you're one of the drones being paid by the government.) There are only jobs offered by PRIVATE interests, for PRIVATE profits.
The UAW is demanding "job protection" and that no more plants will be closed in the USA. This type of unreasonable demand is PRECISELY why businesses move their jobs elsewhere.
You sir, are the one with your head in the sand, and your bigotries on your sleeve.
I don't give a shit if Mexicans EVER become legalized as citizens, it is IRRELEVANT, as long as they are willing to be our paid slaves, our economy will continue to grow, while others stagnate.
We should be on our freakin' KNEES thanking the good Lord he's provided us with such a resource, instead of villifying them for PERSONAL agendas.
It isn't like this is a "new problem" either sprout, 1907 was the first time Congress passed a law saying "beaners stay out." They couldn't change the laws of supply and demand THEN, and they aren't going to change it now, much less change human nature.
Go back to sleep. You would let the USA turn into a 3rd world nation and be sold off systematically while we set around doing nothing about it. By the way, JJ how is the counter for jobs and the unemployed actually counted? Now talk to me about a Number or Math Game. Its easy to play a math game if you dont put in all the veriables. If your filling the jobs as fast with Foreign people as the Americans that are loosing them, does that count as a job not filled? Oh yeah the United States Factor who cares if a United States Citizen looses their job. You may want to turn a Blind Eye to this problem and that is your prerogative as a Legal United States Citizen. The same right I have to try to fight the Dream Act, NAU and any other open border policy that our Government tries to push on us.
jJack Midnight, to quote you,
"I don't give a shit if Mexicans EVER become legalized as citizens, it is IRRELEVANT, as long as they are willing to be our paid slaves, our economy will continue to grow, while others stagnate."
So, are you in favor of Slavery?
"It isn't like this is a "new problem" either sprout, 1907 was the first time Congress passed a law saying "beaners stay out." They couldn't change the laws of supply and demand THEN, and they aren't going to change it now, much less change human nature."
So, you prescribe to continue ignoring the problem instead of doing something about it?
"A solution would be to put sniper towers every 50 yards across the whole border, given them orders "shoot to kill," and the "problem" would be over in a matter of weeks."
Your talking about me Rambling?
Its easy to argue with you jJ, all I have to do is piss you off and your ignorance does the rest.
Oh yeah, Omaha Nebraska! There is an epicenter of Illegal Immigration Issues. Try to move to San Diego or Las Angeles or any other large city and see if you have the same point of view. I sure am glad that yours is only one opinion unlike the Million that share mine. Before you start talking about rambling, go do the research and see who is right. You like to play the duck and dodge game, again, that is your prerogative facts speak louder than words.
Sure, I'm in favor of keeping the Mexicans at the bottom of the economic food chain for as long as possible, which makes them virtual slaves. Big deal.
There is no problem to ignore moron, or do you just ignore the parts you don't like??
Solutions, aren't rambling, numb nuts.
What makes you think I get "pissed off" by morons like you on a glorified chat board ???? *ROFL*
I've done the research and supplied the numbers YOU CANNOT REFUTE OR IGNORE, so you just call me names like "stupid." Which is why my FACTS do speak louder than your emotional rants.
Yes, Nebraska is in fact, in debt to the Mexicans, they have OVER 90% OF THE JOB GROWTH IN THE STATE over the past decade. Like many agricultural states, WE NEED BODIES TO DO THE WORK and there simply is not enough natives to get that job done.
We have entire towns "taken over" by Mexicans, such as Mexington (formerly Lexington) Nebraska. We have as many Mexicans per captia, as anywhere else in the country.
Those are the FACTS xenophobic idiots like YOU ignore.
You're an idiot, plain and simple, making assumptions about something you know NOTHING about.
I have a few questions for you. First, your style diminishes any
credibility that you and your "FACTS" have, if they are facts. At this point I'm about ready to write you off as nothing but a loudmouthed, blowhard, BUT I'm willing to give everyone a chance to prove themself, even if they appear pitiful.
So, where does your information come from ? Upon what do you base your statements ? : 1. The USA has created 8 million jobs in 7 years.
2. Whatever the number, WHERE are the jobs, and how many of them
are filled by Americans ?
3. "we create so many of these jobs, they have to be outsourced".
Also, were you saying that 3 million jobs wouldn't represent any more than 1%
of 1% of all the jobs in the USA ?
Incidentally, the Bureau of Labor Statistics is part of the Dept. of Labor headed by Labor Secretary Elaine Chou (a pure Bush backscratcher), and the Census
Bureau is part of the Dept. of Commerce, headed by Carlos Gutierrez another of Bush's
Cabinet backscratchers, and a fairly decent con artist as well. Some of your "FACTS" are to be taken lightly, bearing in mind these questionable sources, but the map and pie charts did pretty up the page a bit, I'll concede that.
P.S. If you want to debate Bush's cabinet "FACTS", we'll have to deleve into those
ALLEGED 1.8 million jobs that the Bush administration so miraculously "created" between April 2004 and November 2004 (just in time for the 2004 presidential election) - Imagine that! as Lou Dobbs would say.
This I am afraid is just the tip of the iceberg lettuce (please humor me) as like it or not 70% of the workers in the agrculture industry are illegals (source Pat Buchanan MSNBC).
What could've been done is simply hire American workers. Picking oranges in the good weather of the Florida winter isn't too bad. A lot easier than some jobs I've done. Funny though, I thought Florida's pickers were legal guestworkers.